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What can a wizard do in a city?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


Does anyone have any suggestions on what a NG wizard can do in a city campaign. Some of the others in the group want to create a thieves guild and take over the city. I have no idea what to do with my character. I have never had a city campaign like this.

Factors
1. The GM is doing a sandbox style of play. We do what we want and he does not give us "adventures" in the normal sense of the word.
2. Money is very scarce. We have just reached 4th level and my income has been about 600gp total for the campaign.
3. Without income greater than that I have no idea what to do with my character. I'm struggling to find ways to make income and to contribute to the group as a player in this campaign.
4. The city is CE due to the ruling class, so a Neutrally aligned thieves guild might actually help the city to become better. I'm not sure if my character wants to be involved with building a thieves guild.
5. The city noble houses don't like to let a wizard run around not allied with one of the houses. Otherwise they tend to kill the offending wizard. So far I have not drawn attention to myself, and I just made 4th level. It will become more difficult to avoid being "asked" to work for one of the houses. A school of magic would be like throwing a match into a pool of gas that I'm sitting in.

Any advice would be appreciated.


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First off... Never take over a city. It's not worth it. Just too much work. You want to be the one behind the scenes pulling the strings not the one who everyone is trying to kill.

A number of fun ideas.
1.Rob from the rich and give to the poor.
2.Become the shadowy leader of the resistance, then volunteer to find and kill yourself... For a price.
3.Yojimbo.
4.Open up a bar.
5.Begin focusing on magic item creation.
6.Begin working out what exactly you would need for a thieves guild. Man power, alliances, items, wealth. Then set at getting it.
7.Use the new found power of the thieves guild to build a school of magic.


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Entrepreneur.

Don't advertise the fact that you are a wizard. Instead, consider a more common profession that magic could help out in unnoticeable ways. Running a tavern, for example, or a shopkeeper.

This will have three effects useful for you. It will keep you incognito, thus avoiding the politics being a wizard brings. It will allow you to indirectly assist your party by serving as a front, so you are contributing without actually setting up the thieves' guild. And it will earn you some extra money that is scarce in the campaign.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Specialize in divination and focus on information acquisition; use the information you get to possibly set noble houses against each other--shouldn't be a problem in that setting. For income, consider running an investigative service for the middle and lower classes. The goal is to control vast amounts of information to aid the group and better know where your enemies lie.

You can avoid the thieves' guild, but still provide information on possible jobs and walk away with a nice cut.


You all have such low ambitions. lol, but before I continue: what are your schools of magic you are focusing on and whichare you not? Abduration and conjuration can make some silly defenses for your lair and charm and compulsion spells are amazing in urban settings. you are neutral good so stealing from therich makes the most sense (though that's chaotic) you can get spies in the guard to protect your guild, you can take leadership and start a wizards college, you can summon angels and good outsiders to gaincontrol of the city for the benefit of magic or general goodness.

The problem with being ng I is good require a conflict, evil makes one


A) My initial thought is: Go ahead and get involved with a noble house. I might give a patron to help fund your research into magic, and/or give you a higher ranking wizard as a teacher. I can see several opportunities in going that route with the kind of game you are playing. You'd get connections/relations in the city, which at times might be helpful, and at other times might have a lot of (hopefully problematic) demands of you. All in all, there is a lot of RP opportunities for alliances and enmity of becoming tangled up with the city noble society.
Furthermore it fits many mages to accept whatever the have to, to gain the opportunities to increase their abilities.

B) An alternative route you could take is getting involved with / starting up the city's Temple of Nethys. Taking on the role of priest, might give you an opportunity of having a public face, despite your illicite abilities.
If your group is headed towards bettering the society in the long term, a Temple of Nethys might also function as a cover for helping others wizards/sorcerers who feel hunted by the authorities.


I'm not all that interested in the whole thieves guild thing. I just have no idea what to do with my character since the noble houses are evil and I am good, good religions are openly ridiculed, a wizard not aligned to one of the houses are generally killed, and the only way I can think of to make money takes feats I can't afford to spend on useless Item creation or metamagic feats. With the campaign being done as a sandbox style with no general direction, I made the worst possible personality for my character.

BTW we are playing pathfinder in forgotten realms. I worship azuth.


You can gather around all the discontent citizens, the oppressed and the good-hearted, and when you have a small "army" (perhaps with the help of Leadership), have them revolt, throw down the evil houses and religions, and establish some good ruler to whom you'll be an advisor.
Using the thieves' guild to steal from the evil rich and give to the good poor is a good start at it.


What school are you specialized in?

Anyway, how about plotting the overthrow of the corrupt elite? Using spells like Alter Self, Invisibility and Clairvoyance, gather information and a spy network. Then become the shadowy backer of a revolutionary vanguard party.

Select vulnerable elite members who mock good religions and make an example of them (while keeping your identity secret); spread rumors among the populace that this is the vengeance of the good gods, that the end is drawing near for the corrupt elite, and that only the righteous will be spared.

Make an alliance with the budding thieves guild; as long as they steal from the rich rather than the poor (the rich have shinier baubles anyway), you'll help them and they help you. They'll be part of your information/revolutionary network, while you help them get into places they have a hard time cracking without magic backup.

If you're a steadfast Good character in an evil society, then Something Must Be Done. And rather a thieves guild that doesn't victimize the poor (not quite so much as they would if you didn't keep them focused on the rich) than the current system.

... yeah, I'm reading up for a class on the Soviet Union. Can you tell?


Conjuration with the Teleportation subschool

Opposition schools: Necromancy, Enchantment


Ramlatus wrote:

Does anyone have any suggestions on what a NG wizard can do in a city campaign. Some of the others in the group want to create a thieves guild and take over the city. I have no idea what to do with my character. I have never had a city campaign like this.

Factors
1. The GM is doing a sandbox style of play. We do what we want and he does not give us "adventures" in the normal sense of the word.
2. Money is very scarce. We have just reached 4th level and my income has been about 600gp total for the campaign.
3. Without income greater than that I have no idea what to do with my character. I'm struggling to find ways to make income and to contribute to the group as a player in this campaign.
4. The city is CE due to the ruling class, so a Neutrally aligned thieves guild might actually help the city to become better. I'm not sure if my character wants to be involved with building a thieves guild.
5. The city noble houses don't like to let a wizard run around not allied with one of the houses. Otherwise they tend to kill the offending wizard. So far I have not drawn attention to myself, and I just made 4th level. It will become more difficult to avoid being "asked" to work for one of the houses. A school of magic would be like throwing a match into a pool of gas that I'm sitting in.

Any advice would be appreciated.

From the standpoint of what a wizard can do -- wizards tend to have useful class skills and lots of skill points because of high Int. You could become an alchemist (of the non PC class variety), crafter, a lore master, librarian, scribe, or translator for example. And that's before options like selling spellcasting services (something you want to avoid if laying low).

You can also do research to help your party. A CE city with ruling noble houses probably has a butt-ton of history that you can look up. Is House Monkeypants going to potentially be a thorn in your party's side? Look up that house's history, find out how it got started, maybe see if it's got skeletons in its closet, etc.

As to what YOUR character can do, in terms of what you feel would be appropriate for your character:
- Think about your background. If you haven't written much of one, maybe now's the time to start. If your wizard's avoiding affiliating with a ruling house, why is that? Does he have a thing against the nobility? If so, could that also give him motivation to start working against the nobility in secret? (This is an example, the idea is come up with stuff from your wizard's past history to give him some motivation)
- You mentioned the thieves' guild -- I get a sense this is something the other PCs are trying to invest in. A big problem in sandbox games is when PCs have conflicting goals -- with conflicting PC goals AND no overarching driving plot, the game can fall apart easily (I've seen it happen). Talk with your fellow players -- have this exact conversation with them and work with them to find a goal you can all agree on and work toward. If not the thieves guild, something else. (And if they are all working on the thieves guild, think about why you're not. There's tons a teleportation specialist could do for a bunch of thieves....)
- While you're talking to your players, TALK TO YOUR GM. Tell them this same thing. Your GM may want things to be sandboxy, but if you're having trouble picking up some threads to make the game work for you, that is something the GM should know and be willing to help throw you some opportunities or at least ideas.


What's the personnality of your character ? Is he a leader, a follower, a shadowy figure in the dark, a rebel, a sage, a saint, an advisor ?

In which way do you want to be useful to the group? Support, counselor, face, etc?

Some ideas, maybe irrelevant:
- open a shop
- open a hospice, an orphanage,…
- become an insider in one of the ruling house, slowly gathering intel and power to overthrow it
- become a spy, intel gatherer, etc, using your summoned monster to do your work (best with planar binding still)


I would advise finding a way to be involved with the thieves guild, because if the PCs are all working on radically different stories, you get an annoying campaign where you spend a lot of time waiting for other players to do their thing before you can do yours.

So find a way to combine your aims and theirs. The thieves guild as an ally for the Proletariat Revolution, for example.

You've got a lot to offer them. Invisibility is awesome for rogues. Familiars' small size makes spying (staking out a mark) easy. Spells (illusions!) are very good distractions. With your level 5 bonus feat, you could take Craft Wondrous Item and become their house crafter (which can net you a tidy income, too!), since rogues need wondrous items most of all, and it's about the same for wizards. Besides, if you make items yourself, you don't have the hassle of finding people who sell wizard-oriented items.

Rogues have a lot to offer to you too. A wizard who knows what to expect can prepare the right spells, so an intelligence network is useful.

Have an OOC talk about alignment. If the thieves aren't too nasty (preferring to steal from the not-so-nice people rather than the poor -> more Neutral rather than really Evil), and you're a "Dirty Harry" sort of rough NG, then cooperation should work out.

Congrats on picking one of the best schools, particularly for this environment. If you do decide to assassinate someone who "has it coming", then invisibly infiltrating their mansion (using Shift) and summoning a Celestial Leopard to do the actual killing, makes it very hard afterwards to track things back to you.


Ascalaphus, your suggestions are pretty awesome. I'll have to keep them in mind in case I ever make a similar character.


Second on the staying along the same path as the other players. It may not be a typical party but it is a way for you all to align your activities.
Wizards can make amazing thieves with some fairly low level spells. Spider climb and invisibility, knock and mage hand all combine to make a nearly uncatchable burglar.
Ascalaphus pointed out some other options that sound good.

Some of the less used spells in a standard dungeon bashing campaign come into play in a city...

Wander into a secure area while it's open, distract watches and then Rope trick. Come out later and rob the joint. (hmm re-reading.. they added a line.. "the rope cannot be hidden" which solidly makes this a useless spell. There is nothing keeping bad guys from joining you up in there...
GAH!)

Non-detection becomes a money maker for a wizard with all the thieves wanting him to cast it fairly regularly. What better way to outmaneuver the local constabulary?

Mind altering spells to distract guards/take them out of the area.

Etc...


I think some of it could be fixed by you simply redefining the words "thieves guild" the others may think its a thieves guild but to your character they may be the rebellion against the evil city. Maybe be the helpful but idealistic wizard that thinks its all for the greater good while the other characters are in it for the money and power or same campaign different flavor the cynical good guy who's using the guild as part of his plans to strike back at evil.


Derek Vande Brake wrote:

Entrepreneur.

Don't advertise the fact that you are a wizard. Instead, consider a more common profession that magic could help out in unnoticeable ways. Running a tavern, for example, or a shopkeeper.

This will have three effects useful for you. It will keep you incognito, thus avoiding the politics being a wizard brings. It will allow you to indirectly assist your party by serving as a front, so you are contributing without actually setting up the thieves' guild. And it will earn you some extra money that is scarce in the campaign.

+1

This is excellent advice. Combines well with underground movement/thieves guild...


A new mob that starts out not quite as bad as the current organized crime is probably not going to improve the city very much.

----------------------------------------------------------

Put some skill points into some of the typical thief skills just as a cover. Stealth, appraise, bluff, sense motive, perception, disable device, etc...

Even if you are not interested in the thieves guild. Then you can pretend to be a low status thief.

Silent spell and still spell. Many GM's will allow these to make it so others can't tell you are casting spells. Well, at least for the spells that don't leave a firey trail in the air leading back to you anyway.

Divination, enchantment, and illusion spells can all be very valuable.

Get brew potion feat to sell on the black market.

Start buying pottery and statues. Smash and throw away some of them. Everyone will assume the potions are being smuggled in the pottery and statues.

Now you open up a low end, second hand, magic mart. As a cover for selling/buying information

OR

Use divination spells along with still and silent spell to become an investigator. Sounds like this city really needs one. =)
Then just don't take the jobs that your friends are involved with. That way you can help clean up the city and take out your friends competition at the same time.


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What can a wizard do in a city?

Any damn thing he pleases.


I'm with HaraldKlak -- find a noble house and:

Use the information and resources there to assist the party. As you rise in the ranks of that organization you can blind it to the activities of your allies AND use their leverage to create openings for your buddies in the thieves guild. Know what other houses they compete with and set to applying resources against them (which will be welcome by your house) to have a side effect of creating opportunities for the thieves. Ie, if the opposing nobles have importing interests, have guards or muscle from your house trouble the guards of the opponents at the docks. While the rival houses guards are quarreling (or even outright fighting) with guards/muscle from your house... have the thieves slip in and seize or with forged labels redirect (Yay Linguistists) valuable shipments to the thieves (if they can fence it easily) or to you (if it's harder or you want to make a bigger cut... or the items are too heavy for the thieves to run off with... it'd be hard to heist too many 500 lb. crates of spices or some other valuable trade good. But basically cuddle up to a noble house, and make your bones with them undermining their rivals all the while learning their weaknesses. If you can align your goals with theirs or bring them around to your way of thinking (and if you sow misinformation as well as have great success in humbling their rivals you likely CAN) then being a part of that house shouldn't cramp your style and should underwrite a great deal of your expenses... just make sure you illustrate to your 'employers' that your true proclivities and inclination is to raise their houses' power "Your own way" and by assuring rival houses interests do not trump their own... that way you might be seen as a bit of a loose cannon, but you'll be less likely to be under the thumb (and constant eye) of the more powerful wizards also employed. If wizards within the noble house get onto you, or are obstacles on your rise to power -- employ the thieves to steal valuable items from them (and frame the rival houses) or otherwise collect dirt/info on them that will enable you to blackmail, discredit, or frame them. Offer to fill the power vacuums you create -- and cite your success record. People within the organization will rapidly grow to fear you as your rivals won't last long. If people are suspicious of this... indicate how they had grudges against you, and while the strength of the house is your paramount concern -- it is more likely they came to a bad end for your not ascribing your best resources to protect individuals who did not trust your efforts, and cite their distrust and disruption of your agents that would otherwise guard their interests as the real reason they came to harm...

"...if everyone would just leave you alone to work and tell you what you needed to know, the house would be Sooooo much better off. No? Well then..."

In the grand scheme of things it won't matter who wins -- your house or rival houses. You'll be destabilizing the power structure and making it easier for your friends by extension of that. If you grow to LIKE your noble house -- what's wrong with being the Vizier of the most powerful house in the city -- the ONE entity that is largely protected from the rising thieves guild? -- your legitimacy will also make it MUCH EASIER for things the thieves guild needs to accomplish. Consider this:

As somebody who will commonly deal with nobles all over the city and know who the wealthy personalities are... you could pass yourself off as a collector with merchant interests of sorts.
One of the big problems thieves have in making top dollar for thefts is having a good FENCE... you'll know who IN and OUT of the city will buy what -- and with a noble house behind you there will be fewer or NO questions asked. Sell harder to move valuables FOR the guild, and take a cut of most or all of the money that would be gained extra for your brokering the deal -- the thieves will still benefit because it is safer and more reliable to sell through you, and deals that are not safe or reliable go bust and lead to arrests and/or losses, counter-thefts, corruption (no honor among thieves, right? even if they run a tight ship some thieves are going to lift from the guild) ... in some cases items stolen by the guild will be readily identifiable by anybody in the city (or anybody at least who can pay -- i.e., lady basselbarrow's diamond necklace? Anybody who could afford to buy it in town has seen it at nearly every society party for 15 years!) -- But as part of a noble house you'll have contacts and interests in other cities... find out who your house deals with and make friends with their friends. A side adventure where you schmooze with society in a neighboring city-state to further the interests of your house (and make your own contacts) accompanied by thieves guild agents to make their own contacts and collusion could lead to GREAT profits... you'll have an outside market for goods and items too hot to EVER be sold at home... because the line is too short or obvious to the original owner.

Your sudden appearance in need on the city streets in the area where the thieves are operating will be a useful diversion if not abused (Ie, guards hear something and want to investigate... but you INSIST they follow you to protect "sir so-and-so's" interests FIRST.

When you're powerful enough, knock over (blackmail, jail and replace, hostile takeover) or establish your own scroll shop/library... fill it with your own agents ostensibly loyal to the noble house, but limit their visibility and contact to the main organization (and vet them thoroughly) so they are primarily loyal to you. They should generate some passive income and collect a lot of information on the city for you (both from the books themselves and by paying attention to what people on the city are trying to learn about -- sometimes knowing why somebody wants to make a nobility or history check can be as or more valuable than the answer to the question) -- Make sure you use guild muscle to indirectly keep the place safe and free of scrutiny.

I could literally go ON AND ON (perhaps this is enough for you but say if you'd like more ideas) but honestly, I think you're in a FASCINATING position. If you end up hating the house you're attached to, you can always use what you know and what you can accomplish from the inside to bring it down... (start letting the thieves in or pull a super-heist as the coup-de-grace of your 'long con') -- then citing their inability to maintain security, seek employment at a different house and hope you fare better there. Overtly betraying your house to another house is not advised... nobles know the place of traitors in their organization and it is usually dark and involving coffins or chains. Mark that.

DO NOT let your GM just plug you in as the subordinate of some powerful mage unless you get the idea the GM has some web of larger intrigue to exploit. You don't need or want that kind of oversight. If it's inevitable, see the old fellow has an "accident" as soon as the thieves guild can manage. as I mentioned above, such accidents will sooner or later become vital to your rising in the ranks.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Is every single noble house evil? I know that the main power center being CE will be tough, but, if I remember correctly, most citizens in the town will be within one step of the overall rule, this means some CN factions might exist. Also, is there only one power-center in the city (the nobles)? Usually a city will have a lot more going on than that, even a small city. Look around for people who like you have been off the radar, trying to let their organization survive unnoticed in the general chaotic evil milieu.

Something important to remember is that alignments like CE are not rigidly defined. Chaotic means they do not follow rules well, Evil means that they do not hesitate to hurt the innocent. As neutral, you do not feel the need to follow laws absolutely, and as Good, you will only conflict with their goals if they are asking you to harm the innocent. So you could ally with a noble family, and make sure you never participate in their schemes to hurt innocents (or deliberately try to subvert them).

One last important thing that no one has discussed: what do YOU want to do? Either you as a character or as a player? Even if it is tough, that might make it even more worthwhile.


Thanael wrote:
Derek Vande Brake wrote:

Entrepreneur.

Don't advertise the fact that you are a wizard. Instead, consider a more common profession that magic could help out in unnoticeable ways. Running a tavern, for example, or a shopkeeper.

This will have three effects useful for you. It will keep you incognito, thus avoiding the politics being a wizard brings. It will allow you to indirectly assist your party by serving as a front, so you are contributing without actually setting up the thieves' guild. And it will earn you some extra money that is scarce in the campaign.

+1

This is excellent advice. Combines well with underground movement/thieves guild...

I will add my opinion that this is a great idea. A bar could be a lot of fun and a hangout for the party.


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what about a shopkeeper who uses his creation feats to sell black market magic items? items that happen to focus on abilities like invisibility, stealth, etc so that thieves guild can pay YOU


Deylinarr's idea is actually friggin' fantastic... for months the guild will be siphoning all it's profits into your making items for them. Charge a marginal bump for your friends, but make NPCs in the guild pay full freight. You'll be making thousands in no time.


I'd deffinatly go for the magic shop idea, just say everything is being imported even if your crafting some here and there. As your party and the thieves guild gain power align yourself with them and under thier protection come out of the closet as a wizard. I'd even go sofar as to build a nice big wizards tower at that point or not long after depending on cash flow.

Asta
PSY


PSY850 wrote:

I'd deffinatly go for the magic shop idea, just say everything is being imported even if your crafting some here and there. As your party and the thieves guild gain power align yourself with them and under thier protection come out of the closet as a wizard. I'd even go sofar as to build a nice big wizards tower at that point or not long after depending on cash flow.

Asta
PSY

For that matter, DO import a lot. Saves you some spell slots and creation time, and provides even more plausibility.


I think I'm going to cultivate a alias to deal magic items on the black market. I will be a dealer in magic items and information, but I will keep my real identity clean and have another identity for dealing. I will sell mainly to the guild, but occasionally deal with others. At first I will craft most of my inventory, but will import stuff as it becomes available.

Suggestions & tips on how to set this up and pull it off would be appreciated. Also security is vital to me, so security tips would be helpful as well.


Get a Robe of Blending as soon as possible. Disguise Self is easy to see through, Alter Self isn't, and the Robe enables it for longer durations.

Put the Detect Scrying spell on your list of things to eventually learn. It provides 24h awareness of whether you're being spied upon.

When you deal in goods, have an escape route ready based on Shift; teleport through the wall so that people have to run around to chase you. That should give you enough time to make good your escape.

Consider Traits or Cosmopolitan Feat to make Bluff, Sense Motive or Perception into class skills, because you'll need them. Also invest in Appraise.

With good Spellcraft, K:Arcana and Appraise, you might have the makings of a good fence as well.

When dealing with customers, you need bodyguards, just in case. If robbing you looks difficult, fewer people will try. Maybe one of the other PCs?


What city/culture, precisely? (It could make a difference). It sounded a lot like Thay at first, but that would be LE or NE, not CE.


Tell me you're not in the underdark. :O


Melvaunt of the moonsea region


Hop on over to Thentia instead? I'm sure a total move there isn't an option, but do you have mobility out of the city? Thentia is a neutrally aligned city, 20 miles from your location along the coast to the east, that has a large number of powerful neutrally aligned wizards. If nothing else, you may find it a useful place to acquire raw materials for magical item ingredients. In the best case, some of those wizards may be willing to pass on some of their experience in exchange for having an agent in Melvaunt.

Silver Crusade

Learn Cloudkill and spend the rest of your days as a rat exterminator.


Ramlatus wrote:

Factors

1. The GM is doing a sandbox style of play. We do what we want and he does not give us "adventures" in the normal sense of the word.
2. Money is very scarce. We have just reached 4th level and my income has been about 600gp total for the campaign.

You need to talk to your GM and get him to loosen up the purse strings. You can't afford to deal in magic items, as you can't afford to even buy spells for your spellbook at this rate. Wait until 5th level and it's 90gp just to copy a 3rd level spell.

Also, why does your group stay in that city? If you're in sandbox mode, LEAVE.


Well.... I started getting the whole shop thing in gear when we got into a fight with someone more powerful than us and we had to run away. Two characters survived by not being with the group when the fight occured and I survived by using my teleport ability to pop through a wall into the sewers and the climbed a ladder and popped up to the street. The other 4 members are no more. They got captured and killed or sold into slavery and were gone before we could rescue them. The campaign might be over, not sure what is going to happen.


Hmm. Well, if they were "sold into slavery" and the campaign can continue, you and the other two surviving members should do some kind of big quest to save the other 4. First Find, buy, locate, or steal a crystal ball, scroll of scrying, or some other divination thing that'll let you find them wherever they are, then plan a rescue. Blitz attack against a group of slavers, followed by starting a slave revolt or something, could be pretty awesome. This would mean the other people sitting on their hands for a little while, but hopefully not for too long.


Yosarian wrote:
Hmm. Well, if they were "sold into slavery" and the campaign can continue, you and the other two surviving members should do some kind of big quest to save the other 4. First find, buy, quest for, or steal a crystal ball, scroll of scrying, or some other divination thing that'll let you find them wherever they are, then plan a rescue. Blitz attack against a group of slavers, followed by starting a slave revolt or something, could be pretty awesome. This would mean the other people sitting on their hands for a little while, but hopefully not for too long.

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