Death Knell


Rules Questions


So browsing spells, came across Death Kneel. Because the Caster Level bonus is typeless could I stack it indefinitely? I mean obviously there is the time limit but with 10 standard actions per minute could you kill 50 weenies and run around like a badass for 5 minutes with a caster level +50?


Roshan wrote:

So browsing spells, came across Death Kneel. Because the Caster Level bonus is typeless could I stack it indefinitely? I mean obviously there is the time limit but with 10 standard actions per minute could you kill 50 weenies and run around like a badass for 5 minutes with a caster level +50?

I is not legal, because the bonus comes from the same source.


HaraldKlak wrote:
Roshan wrote:

So browsing spells, came across Death Kneel. Because the Caster Level bonus is typeless could I stack it indefinitely? I mean obviously there is the time limit but with 10 standard actions per minute could you kill 50 weenies and run around like a badass for 5 minutes with a caster level +50?

I is not legal, because the bonus comes from the same source.

It's not the same source? It's 50 different sources, are two different fireballs from the same sorcerer the same source? My understanding of bonuses was that if they didn't have a type they stacked. If I'm wrong please point out where this is outlined.


The same spell is the same source, even if it's a different instance of that spell. Spells don't stack with themselves.

EDIT: What do you think the "same source" rule is for if not for cases like this? To stop someone from casting a single spell that, in one instance, provides the exact same bonus twice?


Roshan wrote:

It's not the same source? It's 50 different sources, are two different fireballs from the same sorcerer the same source? My understanding of bonuses was that if they didn't have a type they stacked. If I'm wrong please point out where this is outlined.

It is two castings of the same spell, thus having the same source.

You can find the rules here:

Stacking Effects" wrote:


Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

It cannot really be compared to two fireballs, as they deal damage as an instantaneous effect.


Roberta Yang wrote:

The same spell is the same source, even if it's a different instance of that spell. Spells don't stack with themselves.

EDIT: What do you think the "same source" rule is for if not for cases like this? To stop someone from casting a single spell that, in one instance, provides the exact same bonus twice?

This case has never come up for any of the tables I've ever been at, we've only ever counted sources to add up how much damage is subtracted from resistances and DR.

HaraldKlak wrote:
Roshan wrote:

It's not the same source? It's 50 different sources, are two different fireballs from the same sorcerer the same source? My understanding of bonuses was that if they didn't have a type they stacked. If I'm wrong please point out where this is outlined.

It is two castings of the same spell, thus having the same source.

You can find the rules here:

Stacking Effects" wrote:


Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
It cannot really be compared to two fireballs, as they deal damage as an instantaneous effect.

Thanks, that solves that. I wasn't trying to start an argument and was sincere in asking how the rules worked in this area, I had a different understanding of the game beforehand and it is apparent that we have been incorrect in our assumptions (typeless bonuses from the same spell stacking with itself).

Sczarni

You could however stack Death Knell and False Life, or Death Knell and Deathwine to bump temporary hp/caster lv. It's quite a buff.


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Death Kneel is what you call it when a character in a movie is mortally wounded, then falls to their knees (usually in slow motion), arms outstretched, with a look of either confusion or serenity on their face before falling over dead.


I played a cleric for almost a year that kept that spell around, as it was a domain spell. I don't recall ever using it in combat.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
I played a cleric for almost a year that kept that spell around, as it was a domain spell. I don't recall ever using it in combat.

The problem with it is that you're using a standard action to finish off an enemy who's already been removed as a threat.

I used to keep a casting or two prepared with my cleric just in case we ran into trolls since that party didn't have a wizard or alchemist with acid and fire readily available.

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