Bomanz |
10 people marked this as a favorite. |
Of the melee classes, Fighters are one of the few without some inmate method of reaching burrowing foes short of blowing WBL AND actions on activating burrow.
Not without a Burrow Owl, anyhow. For reference: The Dead Milkmen
*note, the link above is not necessarily SFW, and its not very politically correct. you have been warned.
wolflord |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would think a big scary fighter would definitely have an inmate way to burrow. Just hand said inmate a shovel and tell him to get to work! :P
Seriously tho, isn't that why you adventure with a party? It's not meant to be a one-man show. If it were, there are some magic items that excavate, are there not?
Roberta Yang |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's a serious problem. Once you get above CR 7, more than half the monsters in the beastiaries have Burrow, so in most encounters the Fighter can't even do the one thing he's supposed to be good at! He's just supposed to stand there looking stupid while the Wizard magically gives herself the ability to burrow and dives into the ground to punch the burrowing monsters personally.
Roberta Yang |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now I want to play a fighter specializing in shovels...
That doesn't solve the problem for every Fighter, though. My Fighter spent every single feat on Weapon Focus (Not Shovels), Weapon Specialization (Things That Aren't Shovels), and Power Attack (Except With Shovels).
Besides, even if I do dig, that requires me to buy a shovel (eating into my WBL) and means that during the first round of combat I can't mindlessly press the "full-attack" button to deal my routine damage. And if any situation disadvantages my Fighter in any way then he's pretty much indistinguishable from the NPC Warrior class.
I don't know why Fighter is even a class. He's not as angry as a Barbarian so he's not special in any way. Despite that, I always play a Fighter. Funny how that works.
Lemmy |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's only part of the problem, guys!
Fighters can plane shift, and you can't melee what you can't reach.
Once you get above CR7, more than half the monsters in the bestiaries are outsiders. The fighter needs some expensive item or spending an ally's action to get to the right plane!
Fighters are obviously useless!
Bomanz |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
^^^ If more than half of the monsters in the game past CR8 can burrow? Honestly? Yes. At that point "pure mundane melee fighter" is an incredibly stupid concept to attempt to adhere to at that level and the system should simply stop trying to pretend it is a real thing.
"Use a shovel" doesn't make you able to do anything effectively with the shovel. If your fighter has 14 dex, a +1 shovel and is level 10, he isn't hitting a CR 10 on average (AC24 says the monster building guidelines). He also has to spend an action to draw the shovel. If you invest signicant feats, stats and money into shovel use, at that point you aren't a melee fighter.
^^ He can get both by level 11 with 3 feats. Also: Yes, he is pretty boned if the enemy is burrowing.
^ Again, shovel does something, but not anywhere near what justifies you existing.
Doomed Hero |
I feel bad for having ideas. Obviously all that math invalidates both my creativity and the way I want to play my character. I must really suck at the game by comparison to you. I should probably just quit. Maybe I'll be better at WoW, but probably not. Thank you for showing me all those numbers that made me realize what a failure I am.
It's too bad this game doesn't have huge amounts of player options, any number of combinations of which could be used to create solutions to this problem. I guess the game is just poorly designed since Fighters can't Burrow. We should probably all just quit. Anyone want to be bad at WoW with me?
Doomed Hero |
I dunno about fighters becoming useless at CR 7. Although PFS might be no indication, I have YET to face any creature with burrow... Except Earth Elemental, but I think that's a whole other thing.
You obviously don't understand the gravity of what's being discussed here. It's very important and you should feel bad.
Dragonamedrake |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of the melee classes, Fighters are one of the few without some inmate method of reaching burrowing foes short of blowing WBL AND actions on activating burrow.
Not without a Burrow Owl, anyhow. For reference: The Dead Milkmen
*note, the link above is not necessarily SFW, and its not very politically correct. you have been warned.
Well played sir... well played.
Marthian |
Marthian wrote:I dunno about fighters becoming useless at CR 7. Although PFS might be no indication, I have YET to face any creature with burrow... Except Earth Elemental, but I think that's a whole other thing.You obviously don't understand the gravity of what's being discussed here. It's very important and you should feel bad.
Does no one realize there's a Composite Longbow? Sure, the fighter may not be as good at it, but it's still a weapon. I keep a ranged weapon on ALL my characters, and it just sounds like no one in the thread does either.
Power gamers... I may be one too, but seriously. Shooting a bow at a creature and still have a chance to do damage is better than sitting on the ground dumbstruck and doing nothing. And it's not like there's items to help you fly. (Also, WBL? You can't have everything. I don't own everything for every purpose in life, why should adventurers be any different?)
/rant Seriously. Ranged Weapons. Burrow? There's plenty of things you can do to get that. And as far as I know, what then? I don't know burrow well either, but I think you would have a hard time finding said creature.
Doomed Hero |
Marthian, you don't understand! Fighters can't FLY. That's a big problem. It's a serious oversight on the part of the developers.
The fact that they can't Burrow either, well, that's just another level of why fighters suck and no one should play them ever.
And lets not even bring up Swimming. That's something people can actually do in real life, and a fighter can't do it.
Well, they can, but they have to put actual skill points into it, and even then their armor weighs them down. They don't get many points to spend, and in order to do something as simple a swimming they have to spend them on something that their basic equipment penalizes them for. Other classes can just turn themselves into fish and stuff.
It's obvious the developers hate fighters and want them to drown.
Devil's Advocate |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Shovels don't count because shovels aren't part of the fighter class chassis.
When addressing the OP's complaint, you have to consider only those options which are an inherent part of the fighter class chassis. You can't then go on to talk about what happens when you add feats and gear to the fighter class chassis. I mean, what do you think a chassis is, some sort of frame whose sole purpose is to hold together a variety of non-chassis parts?
Roberta Yang |
What the Fighter class needs is at tenth level to suddenly realize that they're so good at fighting that they can now suddenly burrow. If burrowing opponents pose even the slightest disadvantage to the Fighter - making him spend gold, making him spend an action, making him deal less than fully-optimized full-attack melee autopilot damage, making him get any form of help from an ally - then it means the Fighter can't do the one thing the class is supposed to do (fight) and therefore the game sucks.
Really, Pathfinder would be perfect if all circumstances and variety in encounters were removed, no unusual conditions needed to be accounted for or ingenuity was ever required, and the game consisted solely of blindly pressing "full-attack for max damage" every single turn. Then, and only then, will this game truly be worth playing.
Monk Adovacate |
6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Three years have passed.
THREE YEARS of broken promises, forlorn hope, and clear display of ignorance and bad will from Paizo devs.
FIVE hardcover player option books later, COUNTLESS threads have passed, IRREFUTABLE proof was presented, LEGIONS OF GAMERS have spoken in our favor and yet, SHOVEL STILL ISN'T A MONK WEAPON.
Benoc |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To all those who suggested a shovel your GMs must be alot more giving than mine. I mean what, do you just go down to your local general store and pick one up?
What are you supposed to do when your GM doesnt allow cheesey weapons like shovels to be commonly available? Getting something that powerful should be a quest at the very least.
Nope I think the problem lies with the class itself. I mean is the druid suppose to have his badger dig a hole for the fighter? Why would he waste his turn doing that, he has potted plants to be throwing.
The Shoveler |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm The Shoveler. God gave me one gift. I shovel real good. Real good.
Orthos |
What are you supposed to do when your GM doesnt allow cheesey weapons like shovels to be commonly available? Getting something that powerful should be a quest at the very least.
In my case? The player spent points in Craft (Metalworking), Craft (Woodworking), and Profession (Undertaker), along with a few appropriate feats. I think she had the skill to make the item, and put in the necessary effort and RP.
This is mostly true. No actual feats were taken, but she did have ranks in the skills. Though woodworking was more for making coffins than shovel handles.