Quick Draw and Shields


Rules Questions


Quick Draw wrote:

Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action.

Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.

Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement.

Draw or Sheathe a Weapon wrote:
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

Are shields in "easy reach" (such as carried by you side or on your back) considered to be "weapon-like objects" and hence drawable as a free action with the Quick Draw feat? Most shields are actually also weapons. Notice that Quick Draw does not disallow shield explicitly.


most shields are different than weapons in that they arent just held ready, they are physically strapped to your arm also. Thats why they take a move action to equip. if you want anything faster than that there are the quickdraw shields, which only come in light variety. As a DM I'd rule you can sling the shield off your back and have it in hand with quickdraw, but not actually equip a normal shield to gain it's ac bonus.

Asta
PSY


While Shields may be used as weapons they have their own rules for readying or dropping.

CRB p187 wrote:

Ready or Drop a Shield

Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or drop a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.
Dropping a carried (but not worn) shield is a free action.

So with a shield it takes:

A move action to put it on or drop it.
A free action to put it on or drop it when combined with a regular move and you have a +1 or higher BAB.

With the quickdraw feat:
Nothing about shields are modified.

With a quickdraw shield it takes:
A swift action to put it on or drop it when combined with a regular move and you have a +1 or higher BAB. (yes, this does not make sense)

Quickdraw Shield with the Quickdraw Feat it takes:
A free action to put it on or put it away. (This is where quickdraw shields shine.)

UE p12, Light Steel Quickdraw Shield wrote:
This light steel shield is specially crafted with a series of straps to allow a character proficient in shields to ready or stow it on her back quickly and easily. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw a light or onehanded weapon with one hand and a quickdraw shield with the other in the time it would normally take you to draw one weapon. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action.

- Gauss


Thanks for the input. We discussed in-group the drawing, donning, and dropping of shields. We discussed how we thought it worked or should work, and what we ended up with was a graph. Hopefully this will prevent any problem for us when gaming. Not sure it is entirely correct though, feedback welcome.

Drawing, Donning, and Dropping Graph


Lej, I regret to inform you that your graph is incorrect. A quickdraw shield can go from 'on person' to 'donned' in one swift action (or free action with quickdraw) and back again. It does not have to go through an 'in hand' position.

Quickdraw shield should have the following sequence:
Carried on person -> Donned
Donned -> Carried on Person

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Lej, I regret to inform you that your graph is incorrect. A quickdraw shield can go from 'on person' to 'donned' in one swift action (or free action with quickdraw) and back again. It does not have to go through an 'in hand' position.

Quickdraw shield should have the following sequence:
Carried on person -> Donned
Donned -> Carried on Person

- Gauss

We actually discussed this exact problem. The two possibilities being what you suggested and what is shown in the above graph. We found the wording "you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a <type> action" a bit vague. In the end we argued that to be able to don or put away something you have to hold it in your hand. Has this been officially answered or is your way perhaps commonly agreed to be correct?


Don or Put away is pretty clear. Let me put it this way:

IF you have to go through the following steps to ready a normal shield:
Get the shield out (move action)
Don the shield (move action or free action+regular movement) then it takes an entire round to get a shield out and ready for use. (Note: until your interpretation I had never considered it that way, hence my IF.)

THEN why would you have a specialized shield (quickdraw shield) that requires you to go through the following steps:
Get the shield out (move action)
Don the shield (move action or swift action+regular movement).

As you can see, the quickdraw shield would be a hinderance in that case since it requires a swift action where a regular shield requires a free action. There should be a benefit. I see that benefit as bypassing the 'get the shield out' part.

Again, this assumes you are required to use a move action to get the shield out and a move (or free+regular move) to Don it.

Until your graph I had understood it to be a move (or free+regular move) to get it from off your back and onto your arm. Perhaps I had it wrong. But if I did, then so do many people.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:
As you can see, the quickdraw shield would be a hinderance in that case since it requires a swift action where a regular shield requires a free action. There should be a benefit. I see that benefit as bypassing the 'get the shield out' part.

Not necessarily. Using my interpretation you could combining one move action (move+free draw) and a swift action move your speed while drawing and donning the quickdraw shield. A regular shield would require two move action (with possible movement) to draw and don.

Personally I find these rules confusing and I'm probably just making things overly complicated. The rules use a lot of terms: don, remove, strapping on, unstrapping, put away, draw, readying, carrying, and worn.

If they wanted drawing shields to work the same way as drawing weapons, I wonder why they didn't just make it a general draw action.


I think quickdraw shields are a problem as written. However, I also think that you are adding in an extra step that nobody else adds in. If you are going to go so far as adding in a second move action to get the shield out just so you can put it on then you might as well also give the quickdraw shield the ability to bypass that. Otherwise, why have a quickdraw shield?

- Gauss


James Jacobs wrote:

Lej wrote:

If I have a shield carried on my back or by my side in easy reach, what/how many action(s) do I need to use to have it strapped to my arm (i.e. granting its shield bonus to my AC).
That's detailed on table 6–7 on page 153 of the Core Rulebook.

Donning a shield is 1 move action.

Lej, thanks for asking JJ the question. I bug him enough with my questions. :)

I guess you have your answer now although it still doesn't solve the problem of why a quickdraw shield takes a swift action to don (while taking a move) when a regular shield only takes a free action to don (while taking a move).

*shrugs*

- Gauss

Grand Lodge

Well, to pull out a shield, and use it as a weapon, then it is only a free action with the Quick Draw feat.
Not talking about donning it, and gaining the shield bonus to AC, just using it as a weapon.
This is because, as I have to repeat, a shield is a weapon.


Does a quick draw shield with the quick draw feat provoke AO's when putting it away? As a normal shield should with or without quick draw. I ask because free actions usually don't provoke AO's.


Any idea?

Grand Lodge

Most free actions do not provoke.


Lemartes wrote:
Does a quick draw shield with the quick draw feat provoke AO's when putting it away? As a normal shield should with or without quick draw. I ask because free actions usually don't provoke AO's.

I can't answer the shield question specifically, but there are several free actions that specifically provoke AoOs. Off the top of my head: reloading a light crossbow with Rapid Reload, standing up from prone with the rogue Stand Up talent, reloading a sling with the warslinger Halfling racial trait...

It seems that if an action normally provokes an AoO, reducing the action to a swift or even free action does not change whether it provokes.

You are probably correct that most actions that start out as free actions do not provoke AoOs. But actions that provoke normally most likely still provoke when a feat or ability changes the amount of time the action takes (unless the feat or ability specifically says the action no longer provokes, of course).


Agreed blackbloodtroll, however I'm inclined to go with provoking as the whole free action shield trick is way too good. Thanks Gwen n Troll.

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