paizo.com Recent Posts in Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?paizo.com Recent Posts in Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?2013-02-21T20:11:06Z2013-02-21T20:11:06ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Grickhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#942013-02-21T20:53:54Z2013-02-21T20:53:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rory wrote:</div><blockquote> You let a spell touch attack be like a weapon to qualify for one feat and for non-proking/threatening situations. And yet, you interpret it is not a weapon for other feats and cases. </blockquote><p>Provoke/threat is explicitly called out in the rules. That's what an “Armed” Unarmed Attack does.
<p>As for weapon finesse, it's not about treating the touch as a weapon, it's about the intent behind the feat letting you use your agility in melee combat. The feat goes out of it's way to remind you that natural weapons are considered light weapons. A weapon being light (rather than one-handed or two-handed) is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield it in combat. Using your hand (or claw, etc.) is less effort than using a longsword. So using dexterity to aid in making an attack with your hand, even though it's not being made with a weapon, makes sense.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rory wrote:</div><blockquote><p> My interpreration of RAW (I know we disagree, and that's okay to happen on occasion) treats spell touch attack as a weapon for all cases. </p>
<p>That seems far simpler, as if intended by RAW. </blockquote><p>It's a good general assumption that the RAW is what was intended when there is nothing to suggest otherwise. You can safely assume the writers meant what they wrote.
<p>In this case, we know the intent is that you can't vital strike with a touch spell. So even if the rules did suggest that a touch was a weapon, we know that doesn't match the intent. </p>
<p>So since the only real argument for a touch being a weapon is that weapon finesse wouldn't work, you can either fix the problem (make weapon finesse work with touches) or turn touches into weapons (which breaks other sorts of intent).</p>Rory wrote:You let a spell touch attack be like a weapon to qualify for one feat and for non-proking/threatening situations. And yet, you interpret it is not a weapon for other feats and cases.
Provoke/threat is explicitly called out in the rules. That's what an “Armed” Unarmed Attack does. As for weapon finesse, it's not about treating the touch as a weapon, it's about the intent behind the feat letting you use your agility in melee combat. The feat goes out of it's way to remind you that...Grick2013-02-21T20:53:54ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Mark Hooverhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#932013-02-21T20:44:34Z2013-02-21T20:44:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rallaster wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mark Hoover wrote:</div><blockquote><p> GRRR... is there NOTHING you can do with 0 level rays? Rhime Spell or others that cause a condition mean nothing because the duration is dependant on ORIGINAL spell level (0). You can't Arcane Strike them or use them for Dazzling Display. Heck, if you take a crossbow they're not even worth much as ACTUAL attacks.</p>
<p>The only other thing I could come up with was the following:</p>
<p>Opening Volley - hurl a ray then make a lucky attack into melee if you've got initiative</p>
<p>Shot on the Run/Parting Shot - nuff said</p>
<p>Vital Strike (it'll take a REALLY long time)</p>
<p>Other than these I can't see a lot of reason to cast low level rays. Ever. </blockquote><p>NOTHING?
<p>Hehe, you should meet my Half-Orc Word Caster Dragon Blooded Sorcerer</p>
<p>1d4+1+1/2 sorc lvl ;) </blockquote><p>Unfortunately as I said earlier today: the build is set as wizard/specialist abjurationRallaster wrote:Mark Hoover wrote:GRRR... is there NOTHING you can do with 0 level rays? Rhime Spell or others that cause a condition mean nothing because the duration is dependant on ORIGINAL spell level (0). You can't Arcane Strike them or use them for Dazzling Display. Heck, if you take a crossbow they're not even worth much as ACTUAL attacks.
The only other thing I could come up with was the following:
Opening Volley - hurl a ray then make a lucky attack into melee if you've got...Mark Hoover2013-02-21T20:44:34ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Roryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#922013-02-21T20:03:12Z2013-02-21T20:03:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Grick wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Rory wrote:</div><blockquote> Do you also not allow spell touch attacks to use Weapon Finesse since Weapon Finesse is limited to weapons? </blockquote><p>No, I house rule it, just like <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2loqn?Changing-touch-attacks-to-something-other#9" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">James Jacobs does</a>.
</p>
</blockquote><p>Interesting.
<p>You let a spell touch attack be like a weapon to qualify for one feat and for non-proking/threatening situations. And yet, you interpret it is not a weapon for other feats and cases. That seems burdensome as you'd then have to decide for each incident whether or not it makes sense (like you did for Weapon Finesse) on whether the spell touch attack should be counted as a weapon.</p>
<p>Ssalarn is consistent and doesn't allow Weapon Finesse to work. That is admirable, even if you, James Jacob, and I all think that doesn't make sense.</p>
<p>My interpreration of RAW (I know we disagree, and that's okay to happen on occasion) treats spell touch attack as a weapon for all cases. I don't need or want to make house-rules to cover corner cases. </p>
<p>That seems far simpler, as if intended by RAW. But, that is my opinion of course.</p>
<p>Cheers!</p>Grick wrote:Rory wrote: Do you also not allow spell touch attacks to use Weapon Finesse since Weapon Finesse is limited to weapons?
No, I house rule it, just like James Jacobs does.
Interesting. You let a spell touch attack be like a weapon to qualify for one feat and for non-proking/threatening situations. And yet, you interpret it is not a weapon for other feats and cases. That seems burdensome as you'd then have to decide for each incident whether or not it makes sense (like you did for...Rory2013-02-21T20:03:12ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Michael Sayre (Design Manager)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#912013-02-21T18:54:27Z2013-02-21T18:54:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rory wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Grick wrote:</div><blockquote> You're using the dictionary to make "armed" mean it uses a weapon, rather than the in-game meaning of threatening/not-provoking. </blockquote><p>No. I am using the PRD plus the dictionary. That's a big difference than just using the dictionary. That's how I interpret RAW.
<p>Question: Do you also not allow spell touch attacks to use Weapon Finesse since Weapon Finesse is limited to weapons?
<br />
</blockquote><p>"Weapon Finesse (Combat)
</p>
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.</p>
<p>Benefit: <b>With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category</b>, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls." </p>
<p>Nope, doesn't look like Weapon Finesse applies to touch attacks.</p>Rory wrote:Grick wrote: You're using the dictionary to make "armed" mean it uses a weapon, rather than the in-game meaning of threatening/not-provoking.
No. I am using the PRD plus the dictionary. That's a big difference than just using the dictionary. That's how I interpret RAW. Question: Do you also not allow spell touch attacks to use Weapon Finesse since Weapon Finesse is limited to weapons?
"Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to...Michael Sayre (Design Manager)2013-02-21T18:54:27ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Grickhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#902013-02-21T18:53:33Z2013-02-21T18:53:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rory wrote:</div><blockquote> Do you also not allow spell touch attacks to use Weapon Finesse since Weapon Finesse is limited to weapons? </blockquote><p>No, I house rule it, just like <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2loqn?Changing-touch-attacks-to-something-other#9" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">James Jacobs does</a>.Rory wrote:Do you also not allow spell touch attacks to use Weapon Finesse since Weapon Finesse is limited to weapons?
No, I house rule it, just like James Jacobs does.Grick2013-02-21T18:53:33ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Rallasterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#892013-02-21T18:43:10Z2013-02-21T18:43:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mark Hoover wrote:</div><blockquote><p> GRRR... is there NOTHING you can do with 0 level rays? Rhime Spell or others that cause a condition mean nothing because the duration is dependant on ORIGINAL spell level (0). You can't Arcane Strike them or use them for Dazzling Display. Heck, if you take a crossbow they're not even worth much as ACTUAL attacks.</p>
<p>The only other thing I could come up with was the following:</p>
<p>Opening Volley - hurl a ray then make a lucky attack into melee if you've got initiative</p>
<p>Shot on the Run/Parting Shot - nuff said</p>
<p>Vital Strike (it'll take a REALLY long time)</p>
<p>Other than these I can't see a lot of reason to cast low level rays. Ever. </blockquote><p>NOTHING?
<p>Hehe, you should meet my Half-Orc Word Caster Dragon Blooded Sorcerer</p>
<p>1d4+1+1/2 sorc lvl ;)</p>Mark Hoover wrote:GRRR... is there NOTHING you can do with 0 level rays? Rhime Spell or others that cause a condition mean nothing because the duration is dependant on ORIGINAL spell level (0). You can't Arcane Strike them or use them for Dazzling Display. Heck, if you take a crossbow they're not even worth much as ACTUAL attacks.
The only other thing I could come up with was the following:
Opening Volley - hurl a ray then make a lucky attack into melee if you've got initiative
Shot on the...Rallaster2013-02-21T18:43:10ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Roryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#882013-02-21T18:28:14Z2013-02-21T18:28:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Grick wrote:</div><blockquote> You're using the dictionary to make "armed" mean it uses a weapon, rather than the in-game meaning of threatening/not-provoking. </blockquote><p>No. I am using the PRD plus the dictionary. That's a big difference than just using the dictionary. That's how I interpret RAW.
<p>Question: Do you also not allow spell touch attacks to use Weapon Finesse since Weapon Finesse is limited to weapons?</p>Grick wrote:You're using the dictionary to make "armed" mean it uses a weapon, rather than the in-game meaning of threatening/not-provoking.
No. I am using the PRD plus the dictionary. That's a big difference than just using the dictionary. That's how I interpret RAW. Question: Do you also not allow spell touch attacks to use Weapon Finesse since Weapon Finesse is limited to weapons?Rory2013-02-21T18:28:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Grickhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#872013-02-21T17:22:20Z2013-02-21T17:22:20Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mark Hoover wrote:</div><blockquote> does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells? </blockquote><p>Of course.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mark Hoover wrote:</div><blockquote> The point of this thread was to add an extra oomph of damage to a wizard whose primary attack at low to mid levels is going to be Acid Splash.</blockquote><p><a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/acidSplash.html#acid-splash" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Acid Splash</a>: "Effect one missile of acid"
<p>A ray spell has "Effect ray," so acid splash is not a ray. Weapon Focus (ray) will not apply, nor will anything that works only on rays.</p>
<p>That's not to say a "missile of acid" is not a weapon, and thus cannot benefit from Arcane Strike. But while a ray is clearly and explicitly considered a weapon, you'll have to ask your GM if a missile of acid is weapon-like. </p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rory wrote:</div><blockquote> The PRD specifically says a touch attack spell is an armed attack. The PRD does not say a fireball or all damage spells are armed attacks. </blockquote><p>Vital Strike works with weapons.
<p>You're using the dictionary to make "armed" mean it uses a weapon, rather than the in-game meaning of threatening/not-provoking. </p>
<p>I'm showing how the dictionary makes fireball a weapon, when it's clearly not considered as such in-game. </p>
<p>This shows that you can't always use a dictionary to define an in-game term.</p>Mark Hoover wrote:does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?
Of course. Mark Hoover wrote:The point of this thread was to add an extra oomph of damage to a wizard whose primary attack at low to mid levels is going to be Acid Splash.
Acid Splash: "Effect one missile of acid" A ray spell has "Effect ray," so acid splash is not a ray. Weapon Focus (ray) will not apply, nor will anything that works only on rays.
That's not to say a "missile of acid" is not a weapon, and thus cannot benefit from...Grick2013-02-21T17:22:20ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Cheapyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#862013-02-21T15:10:48Z2013-02-21T15:10:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mark Hoover wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Phew...now that Vampiric Touch is done... does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells? </p>
<p>The point of this thread was to add an extra oomph of damage to a wizard whose primary attack at low to mid levels is going to be Acid Splash. I've already gotten the Sorcerer build that deals insane dmaage with such spells but unfortunately with starting build options that ship has sailed. </p>
<p>So now I'm on to Arcane Strike. The PC already has Point Blank Shot and a vial of acid to aid the damage. My thought was to add this extra point of damage to his Acid Splash spells but if it doesn't work by RAW then I don't want to houserule this into existence. </blockquote><p><a href="http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9oag" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">I assume that since inspire courage works with rays, so too will Arcane Strike.</a>
<p>I think you're better off using Ray of Frost since that's unequivocally a ray.</p>Mark Hoover wrote:Phew...now that Vampiric Touch is done... does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?
The point of this thread was to add an extra oomph of damage to a wizard whose primary attack at low to mid levels is going to be Acid Splash. I've already gotten the Sorcerer build that deals insane dmaage with such spells but unfortunately with starting build options that ship has sailed.
So now I'm on to Arcane Strike. The PC already has Point Blank Shot and a vial of acid to aid the...Cheapy2013-02-21T15:10:48ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Roryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#852013-02-21T14:42:24Z2013-02-21T14:42:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Grick wrote:</div><blockquote> The dictionary says a weapon is 'any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat' or 'something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy ' both of which would apply to a magical fireball used against your enemies. But fireball doesn't get extra damage from inspire courage, because in the game it's not a weapon. </blockquote><p>The PRD specifically says a touch attack spell is an armed attack. The PRD does not say a fireball or all damage spells are armed attacks. That's the difference that I see.Grick wrote:The dictionary says a weapon is 'any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat' or 'something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy ' both of which would apply to a magical fireball used against your enemies. But fireball doesn't get extra damage from inspire courage, because in the game it's not a weapon.
The PRD specifically says a touch attack spell is an armed attack. The PRD does not say a fireball or all damage spells are armed...Rory2013-02-21T14:42:24ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Mark Hooverhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#842013-02-21T12:06:36Z2013-02-21T12:06:36Z<p>Phew...now that Vampiric Touch is done... does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells? </p>
<p>The point of this thread was to add an extra oomph of damage to a wizard whose primary attack at low to mid levels is going to be Acid Splash. I've already gotten the Sorcerer build that deals insane dmaage with such spells but unfortunately with starting build options that ship has sailed. </p>
<p>So now I'm on to Arcane Strike. The PC already has Point Blank Shot and a vial of acid to aid the damage. My thought was to add this extra point of damage to his Acid Splash spells but if it doesn't work by RAW then I don't want to houserule this into existence.</p>Phew...now that Vampiric Touch is done... does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?
The point of this thread was to add an extra oomph of damage to a wizard whose primary attack at low to mid levels is going to be Acid Splash. I've already gotten the Sorcerer build that deals insane dmaage with such spells but unfortunately with starting build options that ship has sailed.
So now I'm on to Arcane Strike. The PC already has Point Blank Shot and a vial of acid to aid the damage. My thought was...Mark Hoover2013-02-21T12:06:36ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Ashielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#832013-02-20T22:20:17Z2013-02-20T22:20:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Grick wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> If vampiric touch is not a weapon, neither is an unarmed strike. </blockquote><p><a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Strike, Unarmed</a>: "The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls."
<p></blockquote><p>Thank you Grick. +1 to you sir. :)Grick wrote:Ashiel wrote: If vampiric touch is not a weapon, neither is an unarmed strike.
Strike, Unarmed: "The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls." Thank you Grick. +1 to you sir. :)Ashiel2013-02-20T22:20:17ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Grickhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#822013-02-20T21:57:47Z2013-02-20T21:57:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> If vampiric touch is not a weapon, neither is an unarmed strike. </blockquote><p><a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Strike, Unarmed</a>: "The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls."Ashiel wrote:If vampiric touch is not a weapon, neither is an unarmed strike.
Strike, Unarmed: "The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls."Grick2013-02-20T21:57:47ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Ashielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#812013-02-20T21:46:57Z2013-02-20T21:46:57Z<p>Hence my point. If vampiric touch is not a weapon, neither is an unarmed strike. Because the rules go to great length to express that an unarmed strike is not a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon and is an unarmed strike (an entirely different thing, like a spell).</p>
<p>So what you guys are saying is it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, but it's not a duck at all. Which is reasonable. But you need to be ready to be consistent and accept that if functioning as a weapon does not make it a weapon when rolling damage (vital strike actually says that it can be used with an attack and that you roll the weapon's damage multiple times) then it applies for all attacks that are not weapons which includes unarmed strikes.</p>
<p>That being said, you guys do make some great points and I will consider them. They do seem founded in the RAW (even if it does seem somewhat confounded to me :P), so I'm going to do a little digging. That being said, beware the dread wraiths and greater shadows with greater vital strike in the meantime.</p>Hence my point. If vampiric touch is not a weapon, neither is an unarmed strike. Because the rules go to great length to express that an unarmed strike is not a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon and is an unarmed strike (an entirely different thing, like a spell).
So what you guys are saying is it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, but it's not a duck at all. Which is reasonable. But you need to be ready to be consistent and accept that if functioning as a...Ashiel2013-02-20T21:46:57ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Grickhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#802013-02-20T21:28:30Z2013-02-20T21:28:30Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rory wrote:</div><blockquote> Doing a google search </blockquote><p>No need for google. In Pathfinder, if you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
<p>Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed.</p>
<p>An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity.</p>
<p>Making “Armed” Unarmed Attacks changes all that.</p>
<p>But that doesn't turn your spell into a weapon. </p>
<p>The dictionary says a weapon is 'any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat' or 'something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy ' both of which would apply to a magical fireball used against your enemies. But fireball doesn't get extra damage from inspire courage, because in the game it's not a weapon. </p>
<p>Vampiric Touch doesn't deal extra damage from inspire courage either, because it's not a weapon. That's the same reason it doesn't work with vital strike, because vital strike only deals with weapon dice.</p>Rory wrote:Doing a google search
No need for google. In Pathfinder, if you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity. Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed.
An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity.
Making “Armed” Unarmed Attacks changes all that.
But that doesn't turn your spell into a weapon.
The dictionary says a weapon is 'any instrument or device for...Grick2013-02-20T21:28:30ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Roryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#792013-02-20T21:08:24Z2013-02-20T21:08:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ssalarn wrote:</div><blockquote> Counting as armed for making a touch attack is not the same as a spell counting as a weapon. </blockquote><p>Can you point to where Pathfinder says this? That would help a ton. Thanks!Ssalarn wrote:Counting as armed for making a touch attack is not the same as a spell counting as a weapon.
Can you point to where Pathfinder says this? That would help a ton. Thanks!Rory2013-02-20T21:08:24ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Michael Sayre (Design Manager)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#782013-02-20T20:50:50Z2013-02-20T20:50:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rory wrote:</div><blockquote><p> [PRD:</p>
<p>“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack <b>counts as an armed attack</b>. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).</p>
<p>Doing a google search: "armed definition"</p>
<p>"1.Equipped with or carrying a weapon or weapons."</p>
<p>Doing a search on the dictionary definition:</p>
<p>"furnished with weapons <an armed guard>; also : using or involving a weapon"
<br />
</blockquote><p>Counting as armed for making a touch attack is not the same as a spell counting as a weapon.Rory wrote:[PRD:
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Doing a google search: "armed definition"
"1.Equipped with or carrying a weapon or weapons."
Doing a search on the dictionary definition:
"furnished with weapons ; also :...Michael Sayre (Design Manager)2013-02-20T20:50:50ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Roryhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#772013-02-20T20:44:13Z2013-02-20T20:44:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Grick wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> It functions as a weapon. </blockquote><p>In what way?
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> It's considered armed. </blockquote>“Armed” Unarmed Attacks just means you're not considered unarmed, meaning you don't provoke, and you threaten. </blockquote><p>PRD:
<p>“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack <b>counts as an armed attack</b>. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).</p>
<p>Doing a google search: "armed definition"</p>
<p>"1.Equipped with or carrying a weapon or weapons."</p>
<p>Doing a search on the dictionary definition:</p>
<p>"furnished with weapons <an armed guard>; also : using or involving a weapon"</p>
<p>http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/armed</p>Grick wrote:Ashiel wrote: It functions as a weapon.
In what way? Ashiel wrote:It's considered armed.
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks just means you're not considered unarmed, meaning you don't provoke, and you threaten. PRD: “Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being...Rory2013-02-20T20:44:13ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Michael Sayre (Design Manager)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#762013-02-20T20:28:06Z2013-02-20T20:28:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> So you agree that vital strike doesn't work for unarmed strikes? :P </blockquote><p>Unarmed Strikes are weapons. Spells delivered via touch are not.
</p>
There's a difference between being treated as armed and actually having a weapon.</p>
<p><a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#_unarmed-strike-damage" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
<br />
"Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:</p>
<p>Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.</p>
<p>An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).</p>
<p>“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).</p>
<p>Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).</p>
<p>Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. <b>Unarmed strikes count as light weapons</b> (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on)."</a></p>Ashiel wrote:So you agree that vital strike doesn't work for unarmed strikes? :P
Unarmed Strikes are weapons. Spells delivered via touch are not.
There's a difference between being treated as armed and actually having a weapon.
"Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is...Michael Sayre (Design Manager)2013-02-20T20:28:06ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Ashielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#752013-02-20T20:22:58Z2013-02-20T20:22:58Z<p>So you agree that vital strike doesn't work for unarmed strikes? :P</p>So you agree that vital strike doesn't work for unarmed strikes? :PAshiel2013-02-20T20:22:58ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Grickhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#742013-02-20T20:14:23Z2013-02-20T20:14:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> It functions as a weapon. </blockquote><p>In what way?
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> It's considered armed. </blockquote><p>“Armed” Unarmed Attacks just means you're not considered unarmed, meaning you don't provoke, and you threaten.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> It can score a critical hit. </blockquote><p>Touch: "A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can."
<p>Calling out that it can crit just as a weapon can implies that it's not actually a weapon. </p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> It is described under the rules for attacking with a melee weapon. </blockquote><p>Where?
<p>The section on being armed is under <a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#unarmed-attacks" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Unarmed Attacks</a>, not Melee Attacks. </p>
<p><a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#touch-spells-in-combat" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Touch Spells in Combat</a> is under <a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#cast-a-spell" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Cast A Spell</a>. </p>
<p>The first part in the magic chapter is under <a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html#range" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Range</a>.</p>
<p>Touch Spells and Holding the Charge is under <a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html#duration" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Duration</a>. </p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> I'm pretty sure vital strike works with it just as vital strike works with natural attacks like bites. </blockquote><p>It works with attacks made with natural weapons because they are weapons.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> I have quite literally no reason to believe otherwise.</blockquote><p>How about this:
<div class="messageboard-quotee"><a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2k49g?Vital-Strike-and-Rays#20" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">James Jacobs (Creative Director)</a> wrote:</div><blockquote><p>The design goal of the Vital Strike feats was to give fighters an option in battles where they have to move. A 20th level wizard, after all, can take a move action and still cast most of his toughest spells. A 20th level rogue can run around to flank someone and get in a hefty backstab. A 20th level cleric can move and then unleash a spell or a blast of channeled energy.</p>
<p>But fighter types? They move and they lose their additional attacks. Vital strike and its chain of feats was created to help fighters; essentially, they can move and still pack a powerful single hit by using Vital Strike, especially if they combine it with things like Power Attack, critical feats, and the like.</p>
<p>It wasn't ever intended to give spellcasters a way to double their damage dice, and you can expect it to be reworded in an upcoming FAQ sooner or later to enforce this role.</blockquote><p>or this:
<div class="messageboard-quotee"><a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mh5h?Has-there-been-an-official-discussion-on-why#14" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer)</a> wrote:</div><blockquote>When I built the Vital Strike feat chain, it was designed specifically to speak to the need for martial characters to be able to take a move action and still do a reasonable amount of damage in a single turn.</blockquote><p>Ashiel wrote:It functions as a weapon.
In what way? Ashiel wrote:It's considered armed.
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks just means you're not considered unarmed, meaning you don't provoke, and you threaten. Ashiel wrote:It can score a critical hit.
Touch: "A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can." Calling out that it can crit just as a weapon can implies that it's not actually a weapon.
Ashiel wrote:It is described under the rules for attacking with a melee...Grick2013-02-20T20:14:23ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Michael Sayre (Design Manager)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#732013-02-20T20:04:12Z2013-02-20T20:04:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Quantum Steve wrote:</div><blockquote><i>Vampiric Touch</i> is not a weapon, nor is it a ray or weapon-like (the only spells that are treated like weapons), so the damage from the spell wouldn't increase. If you deliver the touch with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, the weapon damage would increase.</blockquote><p>It functions as a weapon. It's considered armed. It can score a critical hit. It is described under the rules for attacking with a melee weapon. I'm pretty sure vital strike works with it just as vital strike works with natural attacks like bites. I have quite literally no reason to believe otherwise.
<p>Unlike Power Attack, Vital Strike has no restriction for touch attacks. So yeah. Vital Strike is good for something. :D </blockquote><p>I don't think there's actually anything anywhere that says touch attacks are weapons, unlike rays. Regardless, Vampiric Touch is not a weapon and is not impacted by Vital Strike.
</p>
Vital Strike states that it allows you to <a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#_vital-strike" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">"Roll <b>the weapon's</b> damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together"</a>.
<br />
Magic, Range, <a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html#range" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Touch</a>: "You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit <i>just as a weapon can</i>." </p>
<p>If the touch spell was a weapon, it wouldn't crit "just as a weapon can," it would crit "just like every other weapon can."</p>Ashiel wrote:Quantum Steve wrote:Vampiric Touch is not a weapon, nor is it a ray or weapon-like (the only spells that are treated like weapons), so the damage from the spell wouldn't increase. If you deliver the touch with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, the weapon damage would increase.
It functions as a weapon. It's considered armed. It can score a critical hit. It is described under the rules for attacking with a melee weapon. I'm pretty sure vital strike works with it just as vital...Michael Sayre (Design Manager)2013-02-20T20:04:12ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Ashielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#722013-02-20T19:51:26Z2013-02-20T19:51:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quantum Steve wrote:</div><blockquote><i>Vampiric Touch</i> is not a weapon, nor is it a ray or weapon-like (the only spells that are treated like weapons), so the damage from the spell wouldn't increase. If you deliver the touch with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, the weapon damage would increase.</blockquote><p>It functions as a weapon. It's considered armed. It can score a critical hit. It is described under the rules for attacking with a melee weapon. I'm pretty sure vital strike works with it just as vital strike works with natural attacks like bites. I have quite literally no reason to believe otherwise.
<p>Unlike Power Attack, Vital Strike has no restriction for touch attacks. So yeah. Vital Strike is good for something. :D</p>Quantum Steve wrote:Vampiric Touch is not a weapon, nor is it a ray or weapon-like (the only spells that are treated like weapons), so the damage from the spell wouldn't increase. If you deliver the touch with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, the weapon damage would increase.
It functions as a weapon. It's considered armed. It can score a critical hit. It is described under the rules for attacking with a melee weapon. I'm pretty sure vital strike works with it just as vital strike works...Ashiel2013-02-20T19:51:26ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?Quantum Stevehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#712013-02-20T19:35:22Z2013-02-20T19:35:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ashiel wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">mplindustries wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Psion-Psycho wrote:</div><blockquote><p> @OP
</p>
Level 1 Sorcerer with the Crossblooded Efreeti and Elemental (Earth) Bloodline using the Jolt, Ray of Frost, and Disrupt Undead spells with 19 levels of Rogue Scout is very nice. It gives u the ability to cast a 1d3 acid, cold, electric, fire ray spell and 1d6 ray spell against undead that applies SA. Awesome part is u can Vital strike that for a nice 3d3/3d6+10d6 attack u can do every round for free. </blockquote><p>You absolutely cannot use Vital Strike with a spell. Vital Strike requires the attack action. A spell is its own action.
<p>And this idea seems really pointless. Even 13d6 averages only 45.5 damage. You could do better throwing a shuriken or something. </blockquote><p>Cast touch spell. Hold charge. Vital Strike. <i>Vampiric touch</i> never looked so good.
</p>
<b>EDIT:</b> A favorite tactic of a succubus antipaladin NPC in one of my campaigns, by the way. :) </blockquote><p><i>Vampiric Touch</i> is not a weapon, nor is it a ray or weapon-like (the only spells that are treated like weapons), so the damage from the spell wouldn't increase. If you deliver the touch with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, the weapon damage would increase.Ashiel wrote:mplindustries wrote: Psion-Psycho wrote:@OP
Level 1 Sorcerer with the Crossblooded Efreeti and Elemental (Earth) Bloodline using the Jolt, Ray of Frost, and Disrupt Undead spells with 19 levels of Rogue Scout is very nice. It gives u the ability to cast a 1d3 acid, cold, electric, fire ray spell and 1d6 ray spell against undead that applies SA. Awesome part is u can Vital strike that for a nice 3d3/3d6+10d6 attack u can do every round for free.
You absolutely cannot use Vital...Quantum Steve2013-02-20T19:35:22ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Does Arcane Strike work with Ray spells?TGMaxMaxerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2orfd&page=2?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells#702013-02-20T17:37:26Z2013-02-20T17:37:26Z<p>Depending on the level you play to, with an Int based arcane caster, the Kirin Style/Kirin Strike feats are better uses of your swifts to burn on a ray than Arcane Strike. (provided you aren't a magus, you have enough things to swift on already) Double Int as a swift action -after- you see if you hit. </p>
<p>I have a Witch/MoMS2 with a couple of 1k Ioun stones (to give her attack cantrips, witch doesn't get any rays) that is pretty sick. Touch attack for 1d3+10 ignoring SR at level 4 is kinda cool, even if acid resist will kill it in later games, and disrupt undead is just funny 1d6+10, even with the 50% vs incorporeal it's good to have.</p>Depending on the level you play to, with an Int based arcane caster, the Kirin Style/Kirin Strike feats are better uses of your swifts to burn on a ray than Arcane Strike. (provided you aren't a magus, you have enough things to swift on already) Double Int as a swift action -after- you see if you hit.
I have a Witch/MoMS2 with a couple of 1k Ioun stones (to give her attack cantrips, witch doesn't get any rays) that is pretty sick. Touch attack for 1d3+10 ignoring SR at level 4 is kinda cool,...TGMaxMaxer2013-02-20T17:37:26Z