Master Summoner Fix.


Homebrew and House Rules


I am sad to see the Master Summoner gone from organized pathfinder society play. So, I perused the forums and found out what people thought.

To summarize, the major complaints were:
1) Skill Monkey Eidolons: The Eidolon is supposed to be something the Summoner likes, and summoners send them down halls to set off traps, make them open dangerous chests, or use them as scouts when it would be too dangerous to send in the party scout. You shouldn't suicide a friend.

From the MS side, the Eidolon loses all capacity for much else other than Mount/Skill Monkey because it is so weak at 1/2 level.

2) Swarms of summons everywhere! Gah! Summon a couple dozen Hound Archons, tell them to open doors and kill evil, then the party takes a nap for 10 minutes. Repeat.

MS side: Curiously lacking any rebuttal.

Conclusions: (1) The Eidolon for the MS needs more power. (2) The Summoning ability of the MS needs to be toned DOWN. (3) Removing the Summoning makes Summoner kind of a misnomer.

My proposed redo of the Master Summoner:

Master Eidolon

The master summoner forms a closer bond to her eidolon than most. A master summoner's eidolon is not banished if the summoner is unconscious or asleep. If the master summoner is killed, her eidolon is banished immediately. A master summoner may only summon her eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. If the eidolon is dismissed, slain, or banished, the master summoner gains both the shaken and staggered conditions until her eidolon is re-summoned. If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to its death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon otherwise functions as normal.

This ability replaces the summoner’s normal eidolon ability.

Summoning Mastery (Sp)

Starting at 1st level, a master summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 5 + her Charisma modifier. The master summoner can use this ability only while her eidolon is summoned. The master summoner can only have one summon monster ability active at a time. Using the summon monster ability immediately dismisses all creatures summoned by prior iterations of this ability. This ability otherwise functions as the summoner’s normal summon monster I ability.

This ability replaces the summoner’s normal summon monster I ability.

Augment Summoning

At 2nd level, a master summoner gains Augment Summoning as a bonus feat. He does not have to meet any requirements for this feat.

This ability replaces bond senses.

Achieves:
1) The Eidolon is a key Archetype feature.
2) The Eidolon receives a boost over the standard Summoner's, e.g. not auto banished on sleep etc. However, the power comes with one hell of a cost if the Eidolon is lost.
3) The Master Summoner gets a huge number of summons per day, and can instantly replenish those lost in combat, but can no longer flood the map with creatures.
4) Master summoner retains the ability to summon while Eidolon is out.

===========================================================
Pre-Errata:

Master Eidolon may NOT be summoned by ANY means other than the ritual. Yes, this does mean that the Master Eidolon MAY NOT be summoned via a spell.

There are NO circumstances at all that would allow the Master Summoner to have more than one active Summon Monster N ability active at any given time.


Oh, and remove Summon Monster N from Master Summoner's spell book.


It is actually to big of a buff... you now have a constant addition to the party. That even when killed comes back. And you have the increased summon monster ability.

Also should the eidolon get killed its master loses that which keeps them able to fight. You are replacing one problem with another...

Give me some time and I might have a good compromise...


The standard summoner's eidolon is around for as long as the summoner is awake and conscious. For all purposes, it is a constant addition to the party. The Summoner also gets a feat to allow the Eidolon to remain for short periods of unconsciousness/sleep. (Here).

Essentially granted them a larger feat for a way larger than average debuff.

Also, they still have an action (Move or Standard) per round that they can cast most of their spells in. Including all the goodies Summoners get early, like Haste, Slow, etc. Sure they are disadvantaged on the rest of the day, but it only nukes ONE spell (well spell like ability).


The way you worded it though they get a full powered Eidolon that can be a permanent member of the party. Made it to were there isn't a drawback to having the Eidolon on the field. The only drawback to this change is if you happen to slip up you lose your summoning ability entirely for 24 hours and get reduced to a weaker Bard.

Any player with even a little tactical aptitude will never suffer with this archetype.

Heck, I could take this archetype and Solo any encounter.

EDIT: better way to say this is you just gave the normal Summoner increased number of Summon Monster spell-like abilities and allow them to keep their Eidolon at all times. The only drawback isn't even a drawback.


These changes are completely overpowered. Im sorry but there is little to no balance here. Compare it to a base summoner.

1. Your Master Summoner can use his summons and use his Eidolon at the same time. A normal summoner can only have one(1) summons up at a time or have is Eidolon. Not both.

2. He has 2 more uses of his Summoning power.

3. He has an Eidolon that is never dismissed and is just as powerful as a standard Summoners.

And what do you give up for that? You give up Bonded Senses? This isn't a fix (nerf). This is a big big buff. There is already a Toned down Master Summoner for PFS. Its called a Normal Summoner.


Dragonamedrake wrote:

These changes are completely overpowered. Im sorry but there is little to no balance here. Compare it to a base summoner.

1. Your Master Summoner can use his summons and use his Eidolon at the same time. A normal summoner can only have one(1) summons up at a time or have is Eidolon. Not both.

2. He has 2 more uses of his Summoning power.

3. He has an Eidolon that is never dismissed and is just as powerful as a standard Summoners.

And what do you give up for that? You give up Bonded Senses? This isn't a fix (nerf). This is a big big buff. There is already a Toned down Master Summoner for PFS. Its called a Normal Summoner.

Thank you for explaining my view better... I am never good with this kinda thing.


Dragonamedrake wrote:
These changes are completely overpowered. Im sorry but there is little to no balance here. Compare it to a base summoner.

You are incorrect. See end for more details. But on every point you are incorrect...

Dragonamedrake wrote:
1. Your Master Summoner can use his summons and use his Eidolon at the same time. A normal summoner can only have one(1) summons up at a time or have is Eidolon. Not both.

A Base Summoner can have have either eidolon OR as many summons as they want. . The base summoner can NOT have her Eidolon and summons at the same time. Current Master Summoner can have Eidolon and ONE summon ability active, OR as many summons as they are capable of using.

Dragonamedrake wrote:
2. He has 2 more uses of his Summoning power.

OR she has the EXACT SAME number available as current Master Summoner....

Dragonamedrake wrote:
3. He has an Eidolon that is never dismissed and is just as powerful as a standard Summoners.

The Eidolon is not dismissed when sleeping or unconscious, but if it is killed, banished, or otherwise dismissed, the Summoner is down to 1 move action or standard action, and all those actions are at -2 until the Summoner re-summons his Eidolon. Quite a drawback.

Dragonamedrake wrote:
And what do you give up for that? You give up Bonded Senses? This isn't a fix (nerf). This is a big big buff. There is already a Toned down Master Summoner for PFS. Its called a Normal Summoner.

What you give up is summoning power and flexibility . . . and the potential to gain the shaken and staggered conditions, that can not be removed, except by re-summoning the eidolon. Per normal eidolon rules, if the eidolon is killed, can not be re-summoned for 24 hours. so a completely gimped character for 24 hours... I think that is a drawback.

To continue however, lets compare the two in a combat scenario.

Compare the two in this sample encounter:
Round 1:
Current Master Summoner:
Sends Eidolon in to attack, does 1 bite at 1d6, 2 claws at 1d4.
summon Celestial Eagle as flanking buddy for X, possibly for Eidolon if no other party members present.
Celestial eagle attacks 3 times, claw, claw, bite each at +3 to hit base, +2 for flanking = +5 to hit. doing 1d4 per hit.
Sends Eidolon in to attack, does 1 bite at 1d6, 2 claws at 1d4.

Proposed Master Summoner: Same.

Round 1, both versions equal.

Round 2:

Current Master Summoner: (rolls 6 attacks this round)
Summon Celestial Eagle (2) as flanking buddy for Eagle (1), or other party member, Eidolon dismissed, more than one summons active.
Celestial Eagle (1) 2 attacks 3 times, claw, claw, bite each at +3 to hit base, +2 for flanking = +5 to hit. doing 1d4 per hit.
Celestial Eagle (2) attacks 3 times, claw, claw, bite each at +3 to hit base, +2 for flanking = +5 to hit. doing 1d4 per hit.

Proposed Master Summoner: (rolls 6 attacks, has one move/standard action to use. Perhaps attacks with crossbow or casts mage armor at her Eidolon).

Round 3:

Current Master Summoner: (rolls 9 attacks this round)
summon Celestial Eagle (3) as flanking buddy for Eagle (1), or other party member, Eidolon dismissed, more than one summons active.
Celestial Eagle (2) 2 attacks 3 times, claw, claw, bite each at +3 to hit base, +2 for flanking = +5 to hit. doing 1d4 per hit.
Celestial Eagle (1) attacks 3 times, claw, claw, bite each at +3 to hit base, +2 for flanking = +5 to hit. doing 1d4 per hit.

Proposed Master Summoner: (rolls 6 attacks, has one move/standard action to use. . .

Round 4:

Current Master Summoner: (rolls 12 attacks this round)
summon Celestial Eagle (4) as flanking buddy for Eagle (1), or other party member, Eidolon dismissed, more than one summons active.
Celestial Eagle (3) 2 attacks 3 times, claw, claw, bite each at +3 to hit base, +2 for flanking = +5 to hit. doing 1d4 per hit.
Celestial Eagle (2) attacks 3 times, claw, claw, bite each at +3 to hit base, +2 for flanking = +5 to hit. doing 1d4 per hit.
Celestial Eagle (1) attacks 3 times, claw, claw, bite each at +3 to hit base, +2 for flanking = +5 to hit. doing 1d4 per hit.

Proposed Master Summoner: (still at 6 attacks, If Eidolon is being attacked, has one move/standard action to use. . .)

.... I am sure you see the pattern ...

The Proposed Master summoner can no longer spam this kind of power.

When the SLA's start to come in to play (Summon Monster III) This pattern just gets more powerful when comparing MS Current to MS Proposed.

When Summoning Die based Summons (e.g. rolling for how many Celestial Eagles you get for summoning Celestial Eagles with Monster Summon II, the Current Master Summoner outpaces the Proposed even faster.

I refuse to believe that the proposed is a buff of the current. it is no where near. It is a RADICAL reduction in power.

The Pathfinder model is 4-5 round combats, so a Master Summoner (Current) can use this tactic 2.5 times per day.

In a hard, long fight, the Current Master Summoner has the potential (Assuming lasts 10+ rounds) to be rolling 60 attacks, provide flanking bonuses to up to 10 creatures...


Yes, you've ditched the ability to have multiple Summon Monster SLA's active at the same time... but in the process you've also removed the only drawback that stopped Master Summoner from being strictly superior to the normal Summoner (the gimped Eidolon). Okay, so if things go especially badly and you do lose your Eidolon, that's unfortunate, but you still have your (Augmented) summons to fight for you and you can still five-foot-step and buff each turn (and buffing doesn't really care about the shakened penalties). And most of the time, you should be able to keep your Eidolon alive anyhow.

There's a good reason not to take the Synthesist archetype: loss of the action economy that is one of the Summoner's main features. There's a good reason not to take the current Master Summoner archetype: loss of the Eidolon's effectiveness, which is one of the Summoner's main features. There's very little reason not to take the proposed Master Summoner and to play a vanilla Summoner instead; it even shores up the "don't have your Eidolon if you're ambushed at night" weakness.


Hadassah wrote:
Dragonamedrake wrote:
These changes are completely overpowered. Im sorry but there is little to no balance here. Compare it to a base summoner.
Dragonamedrake wrote:
1. Your Master Summoner can use his summons and use his Eidolon at the same time. A normal summoner can only have one(1) summons up at a time or have is Eidolon. Not both.
A Base Summoner can have have either eidolon OR as many summons as they want. They can not have eidolon and summons at the same time. Current Master Summoner can have Eidolon and ONE summon, or as many summons as they want.

Im sorry but your wrong.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
From the SRD:
Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A normal summoner can only have ONE summons out at a time.

Hadassah wrote:
Dragonamedrake wrote:
2. He has 2 more uses of his Summoning power.
Same as current Master Summoner....

Exactly. You left him the extra summons and took away the negative... the half power Eidolon. Thats the balancing factor for the Archetype.

Dragonamedrake wrote:
3. He has an Eidolon that is never dismissed and is just as powerful as a standard Summoners.
Hadassah wrote:
The Eidolon is not dismissed when sleeping or unconscious, but if it is killed, banished, or otherwise dismissed, the Summoner is down to 1 move action or standard action, and all those actions are at -2 until the Summoner re-summons his Eidolon

And its a minor hindrance that if played smart will never come into play. Eidolons are some of the most durable creations in the game.

Hadassah wrote:
Dragonamedrake wrote:
And what do you give up for that? You give up Bonded Senses? This isn't a fix (nerf). This is a big big buff. There is already a Toned down Master Summoner for PFS. Its called a Normal Summoner.
What you give up is summoning power and flexibility.

You dont give up any Summoning. You have effectivly removed the main negative of Master Summoner (Half power Eidolon), and left him the ability to Summon while he is out. The only thing he cant do is spam his Summon ability which doesn't really hurt either because you have a FULL powered Eidolon out.

Its superior to a normal Summoner in every way. Its even Better then a Master Summoner imo.


Roberta Yang wrote:

Yes, you've ditched the ability to have multiple Summon Monster SLA's active at the same time... but in the process you've also removed the only drawback that stopped Master Summoner from being strictly superior to the normal Summoner (the gimped Eidolon). Okay, so if things go especially badly and you do lose your Eidolon, that's unfortunate, but you still have your (Augmented) summons to fight for you and you can still five-foot-step and buff each turn (and buffing doesn't really care about the shakened penalties). And most of the time, you should be able to keep your Eidolon alive anyhow.

There's a good reason not to take the Synthesist archetype: loss of the action economy that is one of the Summoner's main features. There's a good reason not to take the current Master Summoner archetype: loss of the Eidolon's effectiveness, which is one of the Summoner's main features. There's very little reason not to take the proposed Master Summoner and to play a vanilla Summoner instead; it even shores up the "don't have your Eidolon if you're ambushed at night" weakness.

"The master summoner can use this ability only while her eidolon is summoned."

Loss of Eidolon also removes the ability to summon in general. However, I see your point on the "Night time ambush" scenario. Revised to be Recieves Bonus Feat: Resilient Master Eidolon at Level 1. Same as Resilient Eidolon, but lasts in Minutes, not Rounds.


How in the name of Shelyn, is this even close to better.

Here do what I do. A Master Summoner(Current) can only have a number of Summon Monster SLAs at any given time equal to their base CHA mod not taking into account Magic Items. Unless they have their Eidolon out in which case they may only have 1 Summon Monster SLA up.

That alone nerfs them enough.

Now I might be willing to give them a Resilient Eidolon feat after a few levels but not at first level.

Even at half power an Eidolon if used right can be a powerful being.


Dragonamedrake wrote:


Im sorry but your wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From the SRD:
Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A normal summoner can only have ONE summons out at a time.

I stand corrected. However, I consider the neigh infinite summons per combat to be the defining characteristic of MS. Gimping the ability to spam 3-5 SM N spells each summoning 1d3+1+1 creatures per round is removing the key abuse, if not feature, of the current Master Summoner.


Really, "the Summoner sucks after Eidolon dies" seems like a bad idea for a mechanic in general. The weakness of a traditional (non-Synthesist) Summoner's Eidolon is the Summoner herself, who can't inherently use Life Link to leech health from the Eidolon and who is probably much squishier than the giant combat monster. Making the Eidolon - the massive powerhouse that can borrow the Summoner's HP at any time - the Summoner's weakness just doesn't make sense.

Plus, the whole idea behind the Master Summoner archetype is that the Summoner is better with normal summons but doesn't have as good a special pet - favoring the SLA over the Eidolon. Attempting to "fix" it by making the Summoner extra-super-bonded to the Eidolon misses the point of the original archetype entirely, running completely opposite to the original's intent. This isn't a fix for the Master Summoner, this is an unrelated archetype that you gave the same name as the Master Summoner.


Actually it doesn't.

And Wow I actually misstated my own house rule... that was a derp-fail moment...


Hadassah wrote:

I stand corrected. However, I consider the neigh infinite summons per combat to be the defining characteristic of MS. Gimping the ability to spam 3-5 SM N spells each summoning 1d3+1+1 creatures per round is removing the key abuse, if not feature, of the current Master Summoner.

And yet it is still better then a normal summoner in every way. When creating a archetype you should balance it vs the original class.

Your Archetype is better in every way. Loss of Bonded Senses and a marginal chance of loosing your summoning ability for a day. Its just not balanced. And yes. Infinite Summons is powerful. But so is giving a Summoner his cake (Full Eidolon) and letting him eat it too (use his summons ability).

There is no reason to NOT take this over a regular Summoner.


Roberta Yang wrote:

Really, "the Summoner sucks after Eidolon dies" seems like a bad idea for a mechanic in general. The weakness of a traditional (non-Synthesist) Summoner's Eidolon is the Summoner herself, who can't inherently use Life Link to leech health from the Eidolon and who is probably much squishier than the giant combat monster. Making the Eidolon - the massive powerhouse that can borrow the Summoner's HP at any time - the Summoner's weakness just doesn't make sense.

Plus, the whole idea behind the Master Summoner archetype is that the Summoner is better with normal summons but doesn't have as good a special pet - favoring the SLA over the Eidolon. Attempting to "fix" it by making the Summoner extra-super-bonded to the Eidolon misses the point of the original archetype entirely, running completely opposite to the original's intent. This isn't a fix for the Master Summoner, this is an unrelated archetype that you gave the same name as the Master Summoner.

Actually, running the master summoner in the eidolon direction not the SLA direction makes more sense than making a master summoner a SLA beast.

Summoner = Eidolon. That is the purpose of a Summoner. Therefore Master Summoner should imply Eidolon, not a swarm of 50 some odd Lantern Archons.. At least that is what makes sense to me.


Dragonamedrake wrote:
Hadassah wrote:

I stand corrected. However, I consider the neigh infinite summons per combat to be the defining characteristic of MS. Gimping the ability to spam 3-5 SM N spells each summoning 1d3+1+1 creatures per round is removing the key abuse, if not feature, of the current Master Summoner.

And yet it is still better then a normal summoner in every way. When creating a archetype you should balance it vs the original class.

Your Archetype is better in every way. Loss of Bonded Senses and a marginal chance of loosing your summoning ability for a day. Its just not balanced. And yes. Infinite Summons is powerful. But so is giving a Summoner his cake (Full Eidolon) and letting him eat it too (use his summons ability).

There is no reason to NOT take this over a regular Summoner.

What other abilities would you remove, and why?


Hadassah wrote:

Actually, running the master summoner in the eidolon direction not the SLA direction makes more sense than making a master summoner a SLA beast.

Summoner = Eidolon. That is the purpose of a Summoner. Therefore Master Summoner should imply Eidolon, not a swarm of 50 some odd Lantern Archons.. At least that is what makes sense to me.

Sure, if you're going by the name "Master Summoner" and completely ignoring both the flavor text description and every single aspect of the actual mechanics of the Master Summoner, that makes sense. And I guess if you're just going by the name "Master Summoner", it also makes sense for the result to be exactly like a regular Summoner except better.

That's why you shouldn't stop reading at the two-word name.

EDIT: Actually, even just reading the name certainly implies to me "summons a lot and does it well" rather than "the one thing that it summons once in the morning and then sticks around is a good thing". Also, if you do want an archetype that buffs the Eidolon at the expense of the SLA, Wild Caller exists.


Master Summoners are meant to be masters of summon generic monsters not Eidolons.

Heck, I can't help but think of my players "Grand Summoner"... it actually had a good nerf and gave you great versatility. Though through multiple Eidolons available for summoning. A Full round action to summon an Eidolon but you are fatigued for 1 round for every round the Eidolon is summoned. 1+CHA Mod Summon Monster SLA uses and they come a step later and you lose Gate.

Edited.

P.S.: 25 Respect for anyone who can tell me where the name is from.


http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz55uy?The-Master-Summoner-revisited#1

That was my attempt / rousing success at fixing the master summoner. Still a work in progress, technically. I think it fits the flavor of the Master Summoner very well, but is obviously fairly different. Some disagreed, but eh.

Dragonnamedrake has most of the things right.


Hadassah wrote:
Dragonamedrake wrote:
Hadassah wrote:

I stand corrected. However, I consider the neigh infinite summons per combat to be the defining characteristic of MS. Gimping the ability to spam 3-5 SM N spells each summoning 1d3+1+1 creatures per round is removing the key abuse, if not feature, of the current Master Summoner.

And yet it is still better then a normal summoner in every way. When creating a archetype you should balance it vs the original class.

Your Archetype is better in every way. Loss of Bonded Senses and a marginal chance of loosing your summoning ability for a day. Its just not balanced. And yes. Infinite Summons is powerful. But so is giving a Summoner his cake (Full Eidolon) and letting him eat it too (use his summons ability).

There is no reason to NOT take this over a regular Summoner.

What other abilities would you remove, and why?

1. Reduce the Power of his Eidolon. Delay it till 4th level.

At 4th level, a summoner gains the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature.

This ability functions like the summoner companion ability, except that the Master Summoner's effective Summoner level is equal to his level –3.

2. Do away with the loss of spell-casting when his Eidolon gone.

3. Everything the Master Summoner looses normally.

4. Keep the 1 Summons with Eidolon out and take away the infinite Summons.


Master Summoner is fine it just needs some restrictions placed on Summon Monster SLA. That is all.


Cheapy wrote:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz55uy?The-Master-Summoner-revisited#1

That was my attempt / rousing success at fixing the master summoner. Still a work in progress, technically. I think it fits the flavor of the Master Summoner very well, but is obviously fairly different. Some disagreed, but eh.

Dragonnamedrake has most of the things right.

I love the look of this. This is what Master Summoner should have been in the first place - lots of versatility and bonuses for the summons, not being able to have infinite summons in play at once.

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Master Summoner is fine it just needs some restrictions placed on Summon Monster SLA. That is all.

Master Summoner's only benefit is removing the usual restrictions on the Summon Monster SLA. You can hardly say it's fine while at the same time saying that the only benefit it provides is overpowered.


I meant that its focus is fine it just needs a limit on the SLA. Basic the limit should have been raised when going from Summoner to Master Summoner not removed entirely.


Someone, somewhere, once posted an idea for a rule where your summons always summon the same creature : if you summon a hound archon (his name is Bob), the next time you summon the Hound Archon, it's going to be Bob.

Their idea was the summoned creature gained minor amounts of XP, which reset when you got Bob killed. Neat idea, for sure, but extra book-keeping.

I changed this a bit & the way summons work to intelligent summons like Bob getting more than a little annoyed when they were summoned to act as minesweeper day in and day out, and told his buddies. This resulted in, over time, Bob and his buddies not answering the summons on a failed percentile roll (a HR with a cumulative increase in percentile roll). You're not magically creating these beings, afterall, you're pulling them out of their reality into yours. While in their reality, if abused significantly in yours, they have plenty of time to look for ways to avoid your spell. There are ways, of course, to get a different guy, but its usually a lot of trouble, so it's easier to just use the summons as they should be used.

The eidolon issue is handled similarly, as I treat it as a creature with its own intellect and personality derived from the summoner - not the mindless automaton the rules treat it as.

In essence, I treated this as a GM arbitration fix as opposed to a mechanics fix.


Thanks for the kind words Roberta Yang.

I was on my phone previously, so hence the lack of a clickable link. So here that is.

But in general, you shouldn't "balance" something so big as the primary class features by adding drawbacks. If you need to add drawbacks, you actually need to redesign it so it's balanced.

I do find this to be a fairly decent buff. Outsiders don't sleep, so you now have a set night watch forever since it doesn't go away when you nod off.

As to the major complaints, the skill monkey one isn't much of a complaint from what I've seen, and I've read a lot of Master Summoner threads. People are generally fine with it being an on-demand skill monkey (well rather, that's what the powergamers / optimizers use it as). Most people don't even keep him out. A more common complaint I see is that it should just be removed, but that's not really possible within the word count boundaries that are set for archetypes. You need a fair amount of text for that, not to mention the replacement abilities you'd need.

In any event, the primary complaint really is the "flooding the field", or in general, marginalization of other party members. By being able to flood the field, you're not only hogging the spotlight but also making the contributions of others less important. Further, the spell is extremely versatile, allowing you to call exactly what is needed, far more so than Summon Nature's Ally, really. This, combined with the class pushing you, by way of making the main class feature summoning, to do so, causes problems.

Remember, this is one of the very few archetypes that actually had a warning box next to it saying basically it was a great candidate for soloing.

I do like the "removes previous summons" from play aspect of this archetype. It effectively saves them a standard action, and is more elegant than having to remove the previous ones with a standard action, then summon more.


Word boundaries?

So far I haven't had any problems with people spamming summoned creatures. Even without a cap. Though if I had someone abuse it I would enforce a maximum number up equal to 1/2 CHA modifier. With the previous castings vanishing first.


By "word boundaries", I basically meant "limited page space". There are many archetypes that probably would be better off as alternative classes, but archetypes get only so many words. So the freelancers that Paizo uses may only have 500 words to write an archetype, so certain things need to be cut. The synth is a great example of something that really could've used a full alternative class rather than just the ~750 it had.

If you've had a Master Summoner in your groups and you haven't faced Summon Spamming, you're lucky :)


Mine usually figured frugal use of the SLA leads to easier encounters later on.

Though they are also used to my "No punches pulled" way of running. In fact the player had 3-4 characters in reserve.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Master Summoner Fix. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules