A new guide! "Magic in the Blood: A guide to Sorcerer Bloodlines"


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Discomancer wrote:

I may be mistaken, but from my understanding of previous threads you cannot use EH as a basis for DD as they class prereq states that if you have the levels of Sorcerer you must have the draconic bloodline (and, by the wording, EH does not actually grant you the bloodline, just the powers).

But if my reading was correct, you can stack wild-blooded/crossblooded assuming you accept that wildblooded archetypes are not archetypes of the class Sorcerer but rather archetypes of individual bloodlines. That would depend on your interpretation though. Though I am very certain it has been said by one of the official Paizo guys that wildblooded bloodlines cannot be taken with EH.

Thats good to know as I did not know that before (about the DD part). So you cannot get both str and con inherent bonuses with DD. Pity. Well you still can get large str bonuses!

cartmanbeck wrote:

I'm actually working on a race guide right now. I've got Dwarves done, check it out:

Guide to Pathfinder Races

I see you have! I had some comments on it, but was unsure where to put them, so I put them here.


Hey! Reading through the guide and it's looking great so far. I had a couple comments for you, though.

Abyssal: Stoneskin is probably not a green spell- it's got a 250gp material component, so it's not something you're casting regularly. Also, you pan Rage and then give Transformation a green? They do very similar things in concept (boost melee ability while prohibiting spellcasting). Rage also has some use because it can be cast on your other party members. Dismissal is also probably an orange spell unless you're constantly facing off against outsiders and summoners. The feats are tricky for a sorcerer though. Augment Summoning is fantastic but you need to take Spell Focus: Conjuration before you can select it (tricky!), though Empower Spell and Great Fortitude are solid choices. Also, how the heck have you marked Added Summonings as an orange ability? All summon monster levels except 1, 2, and 4 give the option of summoning a demon (usually one of the most powerful and/or versatile options) and this lets you get two for the price of one. Just to repeat that, you get two of your highest level summon for a single spell. Sure, it only works on demons, but if you're going for the Abyssal bloodline it's to take advantage of all the unique stuff it can do- like summon two demons at once. This is blue, if not sky blue.

Acursed: you list gaining Perception as a class skill as "a HUGE boost for any sorcerer..." While it's a boost, and a solid one at that, it's only a +3 boost. It's more useful for Eldritch Heritage users who are forced to take skill focus. Also, you've listed the bonus feats as red? I don't agree with that at all. Deceitful is a decent enough boost to make disguise a class skill (if you're interested), and alertness gives a boost to the skill you already mentioned was amazing. Great fortitude is a fantastic feat for any class with a crappy fort save- after all, a failed fortitude save takes you out of the game. Wretched Endurance is probably a green, not orange. It's a flat untyped bonus to your saves against a few fairly common effects (fear, cold, and fire most notably). Sure, fear is usually a will save, but the higher the save the less likely you are to be sitting on the sidelines. I might also consider Dream Walker to be borderline green- it's a get-out-of-jail-free card when you get into trouble and great for infiltration. It's also got a ridiculous duration and is essentially a bonus spell.

Aquatic: gaining a swim speed doesn't make the swim skill useless, though it's certainly less useful. In an aquatic campaign it'll still get some miledge, but nowhere else. I'd probably rate it orange for an aquatic campaign.

Arcane: I'd say that the bonded item for a sorcerer is almost completely wasted- one more spell per day at any level is not worth having to make spellcraft checks when it's stolen. Sure, you can still enchant it as if you had the feat(s) to do so, but that's still not great.

Boreal: here you've got rage/transformation marked as red, while with Abyssal you marked Transformation as green. I'd probably make rage orange because it's a decent buff for your friends. Enlarge Person is also one of the best first level buffs in the game for a melee weapon user. Icewalker lets you casually climb over your own wall of ice. Also, vulnerability to fire is a bit of an overreaction. It's 50% more damage from fire, while taking absolutely no damage from cold. You also don't have to sleep anymore, though you still need to "rest" to get your spells back.

Celestial: Sunburst is probably a green spell, not orange. It inflicts permanent blindness in a huge area. Heavenly fire is probably worse than you rate it- it deals/heals a pitiful amount of damage and is limited by alignment. It's more useful as a ranged stabilization for when your cleric goes down.

Daemon: Heal isn't useless, but it's not great either. Someone has to be able to make a heal check to stabilize the cleric during the first few levels, and a single skill point invested here can really help in a pinch. Contagion is strictly red- it uses the DC of the disease, not your spell. Basically this means that they save vs. your spell and if they fail they then save vs. the DC of the disease. Awful. As for feats, Great Fortitude is a seriously solid choice (you seem to hate it). Sickening Spell can be pretty fun if you mix it up by pairing it with reflex AoE spells. Toughness is a winnner every time. I wouldn't say that Wasting Ray is "unbelievably good." I'd say it's maybe orange (if that). The DC has it so that for the first couple rounds your target has about a 50% shot of making the save, which begins to scale down as combat pushes on. If it fails it takes a tiny amount of nonlethal damage. Keep in mind that many creatures are straight up immune to this ability because they need to both eat/drink and be vulnerable to nonlethal damage. Now if this continues and the target feels it's necessary to rid itself of the curse it can take a full-round action to eat and/or drink. That's actually the best part of the ability- the creature losing its round to fix itself. You trade your action for the action of the enemy. Except that the only time it really matters if you trade your action for the enemy is during the really difficult solo/duo encounters, and those things tend to have so much health that they're not going to be concerned about 1d6 per round. If they're vulnerable to it. Also, yes, Age Out is awesome but I think you're misinterpreting the ability. A -1 penalty to your physical scores is something to be worried about. If your scores are even it means -1 AC and -1 HP per hit die. If your scores are odd it's no big and essentially a freebie every day. Also, Wound Warp isn't that awesome. It's a free dimension door/teleport once per day if you want to zap to a dead body. It also deals 4d6 points of acid damage, which is laughably lame at 15th level. On top of that, the spell functions as dimension door, which means that you can't take an action after you arrive! If you plan to use the damage part of the spell that means you've got to pop right next to your enemy and then end your turn, and that's not a great place for a non-melee character (which you rated Daemon as orange in this regard). Otherwise you're getting a gimped 4th level spell once per day with a lot of restrictions.

That's as far as I've gotten. I'll try to continue my reading later. Good luck in the guide!


Continuing on. One thing I've noticed in your guide is that it seems to be entirely about the sorcerer and completely ignores her party members. Characters don't exist in a vacuum. At several points you mark something as a poor or useless choice because it won't help the sorcerer when it might be incredibly useful for a typical party companion. Just an observation.

Please keep in mind that these are only my opinions.

Deep Earth: Darkvision is actually really useful if you've got one or two people in the group without darkvision. It lasts forever and it can keep you from announcing your position. Stoneskin probably isn't green because of its expensive material component. Stone tell is not red. It's so far from red I'm actually laughing. You can ask questions of stone- any sort of stone. The pebbles on the floor, the bricks in the wall- anything. It's fantastic if you're willing to be a little creative, but useless for the kick-in-the-door types. I'd probably mark it green. I don't think that the Arcana is orange, either. Underground counts for a lot of the typical adventure- basements, crypts, dungeons, caverns, etc. It's not likely to be an every day thing, but it's still a fairly frequent boost to DCs at no cost to the sorcerer. Crystal Shard is also probably green, maybe orance. Earth/ooze/construct isn't exactly common.

Destined: I'm confused why you marked Protection from Energy green here, but Resist Energy in celestial orange. I'd say they're both probably green, since they do very similar things. I've always felt that Resist Energy is stronger due to it's no-limitation DR 30, but that's just me. You then pan moment of prescience and foresight because they don't "deal some damage or debilitate a whole slew of enemies." The first is actually a pretty decent spell. Moment of Prescience means that you get a +25 to any single check you must make. That's at least an orange, maybe green. It lasts all day, too. Foresight is admittedly pretty lame for a 9th level spell. Or a 4th level spell. Fated gives a +1-5 bonus to saves and AC. It also counts vs. traps. It was meant to be is not an orange ability- it's green at least. Once per day you can make sure a spell lands when the party needs it most- overcome SR, correct a poor attack roll, or ensure a critical hit. That's mega useful.

Djinni: You mark knowledge planes here as green, but blue in Abyssal. Shocking Grasp is mega lame for a first level power because it's all about getting into melee. It's also lame for a bloodline that you marked as orange for melee. Overland Flight is essentially a replacement for Fly, making Fly rather useless once you get it. I also have no idea why you marked Greater Planar Binding and Wish as blue. Yes, they're powerful spells, but they're also crazy expensive. With some creativity you can get around the expenses of the Planar Binding, but even then you're not casting it more than once a week and that makes it a very poor spell choice for your list. Wish on the other hand is a great spell to know in a pinch, but it costs twenty five thousand gold to cast each time. This isn't a spell you'll be casting very often at all. I'd say that both are easily orange, with wish even perhaps being red. Wish would be exactly as useful and only marginally more expensive on a scroll. The Arcana is also better than you suggest. You can, without an action/increase in spell level, swap your energy type to electricity. Grab both Elemental Focus feats and any time a spell does any sort of damage you can boost its DC by 2. That's pretty amazing. And you can turn it off on a whim if your opponent is immune to electricity.

Draconic: Again you note +3 to perception as a "HUGE boost." Resist Energy here is noted as green, while Celestial has it marked as orange. Form of the Dragon 2 and 3 each make the previous spell useless, so it's unfair to mark them as Blue. Wish is not a blue spell, for the reasons I explained above in Djinni. I don't know if I think that the Arcana is blue. You have a very high opinion on spell damage where as I find it nearly useless at higher levels without the proper DM. Linnorm Arcana isn't useless either, since it's generally going to be more armor than what Dragon Resistance is providing. Dragon Resistances are also pretty sweet- green, at least. For a bloodline that's all about getting into melee you don't seem to realize how great a boost to AC is. Both this and/or linnorm arcana stack with an amulet of natural armor, so the Draconic Sorcerer in melee actually has a pretty good shot at a decent AC (something other sorcerers fail at). Wings are blue, not green. They're permanent, and your fly spell isn't wasted- your party members also need to fly occasionally.

Dreamspun: Sleep is amazing until level 3, after which it's completely and utterly useless. Same thing with Deep Slumber after about level 6 or 7. Shadow Walk functions as something in between Teleport, Plane Shift, and Overland Flight. Why is such a useful spell orange? Interestingly you've marked moment of prescience here green, yet in Destined you marked it red. That's a pretty big shift. And for Visionary Arcana, red? Pair that with a 2500gp ring of Sustenance and you've got a party member who forever only needs two hours of sleep. Arcane casters have long been the lodestone of parties trying to be quick and quiet with requiring 8 full hours of "rest." Now you can skip right along with the divine casters who only need a single hour. It's fairly useless in a group with another arcanist, but it's downright amazing if you're the only one.

Efreeti: Knowledge planes here is green, but blue for Abyssal. Enlarge person here is marked as orange, but green for Boreal despite both being marked green for Melee. Planar Binding here is marked as orange, but Greater Planar binding is marked blue for Djinni. Plane Shift is marked green here but blue for Djinni. I also have no idea why you've marked Giant Form II as orange but marked the dragon series as blue. Giant Form is a huge boost to your melee capabilities (something you marked green for this bloodline) and still allows spellcasting and the use of all your equipment- it all resizes to match your new form. Plus you can pick up swim, darkvision, regeneration, and a fun ranged attack with rock throwing if you need it. You marked the bonus feats as green but then listed out an easy three feats the sorcerer would want to take. Doesn't that make it blue? I'm also confused on your rating of elemental movement. Yes, +30 land speed is fantastic, but how is this blue and the Djinni's new and additional movement speed only a green?

Elemental: Again your assessment of knowledge planes conflicts with Abyssal. I'm thinking Abyssal should have been green? I'm really confused by your ratings of burning hands and scorching ray. You marked them green (up from orange) because you can now take the spell twice and have them in two different varieties. And yet you continue on to mark the arcana of this (and all the Genie bloodlines) as yellow because the only thing it lets you do it change the element of your spells. This is very inconsistent. The arcana lets you (essentially) have every elemental spell you choose perform as two elements each time you cast it at no penalty. This here lets you take a spell a second time if you want. Protection from energy here is marked orange, yet green for Destined. The Elemental Body series suffers greatly because it's unclear if you can cast while in this form, and each spell makes the previous one useless. Summon Monster VIII shouldn't be orange- it should at least be green. Sure, you can only summon elementals, but the 8th level list only has three creatures on it and two change the subtype to [evil]. It's not blue anymore (all summon spells are blue to me), but it's still at least green. Bonus feats are the same as Efreeti, which I think makes them blue. Elemental Blast is great, sure, but it's also once per day for most of your career. You marked other powers of similar strength down to green for this. Elemental movement is additionally confusing for me. You note the fly speed as the best option, while under Efreeti you note that +30 land speed is superior to the fly speed.

That's it for now. I'll continue going through the guide when I can. I'm enjoying it so far!


And I'm back to continue on.

Fey: Entangle is probably a green spell since it's pretty situational in when you can use it. Unless of course your DM states that it can be used in absense of vegetation. Deep slumber becomes useless after level 7 or so. Mislead here is marked as blue while under Destined you marked it as orange. Laughing Touch is actually pretty fantastic, despite being a melee power. I'd probably rank it green. It's go no save and no limitations (beyond once per day per creature). The melee thing isn't even that scary because the creature can't retaliate when it's turn comes. Tag a big bad and you've robbed it of it's turn for one round. Woodland Stride can hardly be considered blue- it's orange at best. It's hugely situational and isn't useful against the most common effects (magical). I agree that Fey Magic is blue, but I don't understand why you say that spell resistance "doesn't come up much until higher levels." You get this power at 15, precisely when SR is becoming an issue.

Infernal: Scorching Ray is marked green here, while in Efreeti and Elemental you mark it as orange. Power Word Stun is marked blue, but in Arcane it's marked green. Bonus feats are better than you make it out to be. Spell Penetration is very useful for a caster who likes debuffs and battlefield control, and Iron Will boosts an already high save towards something untouchable. Extend Spell is useful for just about any caster, and Decietful can be great for those looking to take their sorcerer in a social direction. I also disagree that On Dark Wings is green. I feel that it should be blue. It's got no limitations.

Maestro: While you might want perform for flavor, the Fascinate ability at 3rd level doesn't actually use or require a perform check. Perform for anyone but a bard is entirely flavor (i.e. mechanically equivalent to Profession). The bloodline arcana here is probably orange, or even red. Spells with only verbal components are very rare unless you're willing to invest in Still Spell. Beguiling Voice might actually be green, since it cannot exceed your sorcerer level in HD. This means that frequently the Big Bad is immune to this effect, which is when it's most useful. Perfect Voice isn't green- it's bright blue. This makes the Language Dependent component of many amazing spells applicable to anything that can speak, and boosts the DC by 1. Like suggestion.

Marid: See Invisibility is only occasionally useful, making it not a blue power. Gaseous Form is a fantastic defensive ability that also functions as the poor man's fly and passwall. Probably green. Elemental Body is incredibly rough because it's not clear if you can cast spells in this form- if you can't, it's easily red. Wish has a ridiculous material component and thus isn't blue. I've mentioned that a few times though. The bonus feats here are great! Dodge, Empower Spell, Great Forititude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Finesse? How is this list orange? It's easily blue. The bloodline arcana is probably green, as I explained in the Djinni entry. Water's Fury is green. It deals damage (yawn) and inflicts a 50% miss chance on potentially a few enemies. Being a line effect sucks though.

Martyred: Surmount Affliction is green, not orange. It's able to overcome a lot of really rough debuffs for the duration of combat. It's even better if you load it into a Contingency. Blessing of Fervor is bright freakin' blue. It's haste on crack and useful to your entire party. Joyful Rapture is probably green, maybe orange. Emotion effects aren't common, and neither is ability damage. It's not going to be useful often enough to call this blue, or probably even green. Overwhelming Presence is amazing! It's totally blue. It's a targeted debuff that can absolutely destroy your enemies, and even if they eventually get out of it they're making reduced will saves and taking partial actions for 1-4 rounds. The bonus feats are bad, but they're not red. More likely they're orange. Any sorcerer would be happy to take toughness (especially with the bloodline arcana), and Persuasive is nice for anyone wanting to be the party face. The Arcana is actually blue, not green. The first level power, Sacrificial Boon, is used as an immediate action and deals 1 damage. This lets you use your swift/immediate action every turn for 3+CHA rounds to boost your caster level by 1. That's pretty sweet. Rallying Cry is neat but it's only once per day and it won't stack with the Heroism series. It's likely still green, but it should be mentioned.

Oni: Trap the Soul is so far from sky blue it's not even funny. It's a very much red ability. It requires extensive research to discover out of character information (the creature's hit dice) so that you can spend 1000gp per hit dice to steal a single soul. How is that even worth your time? It's crazy expensive and essentially the same as a save-or-sorta-die that causes lots of problems and a lot of preparation. Awful. Oh, and if you use the spell completion version (the easier version) you can actually expend your thousands of gold if it saves. Why is this spell sky blue? The bloodline arcana pairs up well with a melee user of enforcer. It's probably not green, but worth mentioning. You mark windborne as a green ability but under Marid mark Gaseous Form as orange despite having 20 times the duration. You rate Oni Healing green because "it can literally save your life," which is true. Yet you rated the Destined ability Within Reach orange, despite the fact that it will literally save your life. The Oni ability requires that you fall somewhere between -1 and your constitution score (which more and more unlikely as you reach 15th level and beyond) where-as the Destined ability only requires that you technically die (far more likely).

Orc: Burning Hands is marked green here, where-as you marked it orange for Elemental. Bull's Strength becomes useless after your strength-based allies gain enhancement items, making it a green spell. Rage is marked orange here, where boreal and abyssal both mark it red. And transformation is marked orange (though you allude to blue for both), while abyssal marks is green and boreal marks it red. Iron Body inflicts a 35% spell failure chance. I'm unclear as to why Fearless is blue but Draconic Resistance is orange. It gains half the armor bonus, and grants immunity to fear. The only other thing it does is get rid of an annoying debuff the class grants you. I'm not sure Power of Giants should even mention Enlarge Person. You're not exactly worried about 1st level spell slots at level 15.

Pestilence: Heal is useful for a few levels, but not great. Summon Swarm is green, maybe orange. It's concentration and you can't even influence where the swarm is going to go. That's also dangerous. You can use the 4th level Repel Vermin to help out, but then you're using two spells for the price of one mediocre 2nd level spell that does terrible damage and might inflict a DC 11 poison or DC 12 disease. At 9th level you can step inside the swarm and command it (finally), but you have to use your standard action to do so. Contageon is red, plain and simple. I explained this in Daemon. Repel Vermin is rarely useful beyond hedging out your own uncontrollable summons. Insect Plague is fun but isn't blue at all. It's a stationary effect that deals 2d6 damage and a DC 13 poison. For a 5th level spell. Eyebite is probably orange. By the time you get it you're most likely only going to inflict sickened (which is useful on a Big Bad), and it's only a single target. Also, fortitude negates, so there's a good shot you wasted your turn. Power Word Kill is absolutely awful. At level 19 any of your party's weapon users should be able to inflict 100+ damage each round. And even if they can't, you have to know that they're under 100 HP or you're wasting a 9th level spell slot and your turn. The bonus feats are actually pretty good here. In Aquatic you mention that Brew Potion is especially decent, yet here you ignore it. Toughness is also great, as is Great Fortitude and potentially Silent Spell. That's at least three feats worth taking, and I think that makes it blue (or green). Shroud of Vermin is pretty decent, but not for the commanding swarms bit (except for your 2nd level power). It's mostly great for the boosted defense and the ability to face off against enemies inside your own summoned swarms.

That's it for now. Looking forward to hearing from you.


Nice guide. Glad im not the only one that loves Arcane/Draconic bloodlines.


"Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component."

"Power of the Marid (Su): At 20th level, you gain the power of genies to grant wishes. Once per day, you can cast limited wish as a spell-like ability. Such wishes must begin with the words “I wish,” and cannot duplicate a wish you have granted within the past 24 hours. If you use this ability to duplicate a spell with a costly material component, you must provide that component."

You only need a material component if you are duplicating a spell that needs one, for the limited wish.

Did they change this? I could have sworn all these Genie bloodlines got full blown wish at 20th level.


And finally, the last part.

Protean: Blur here is green, but blue for Destined. Gaseous Form is green here, but orange for Marid. The bonus feats are actually pretty great, too. Great Fortitude and Improved Great Fortude help out with your crappy fort saves. Defensive Combat Training basically doubles your combat maneuver defense, which protects you from grapples, trips, etc. Toughness is a winner for any sorcerer, and you can choose to take your favorite spell focus feat. This list is easily blue. Protean Resistances might actually be green. A +4 vs. transmutation effects is pretty nice.

Rakshasa: Detect Scrying is going to be entirely dependent on your campaign, and likely ranges from red (my opinion) to blue for a DM who loves to use wizards as antagonists. Mind Blank here is green, but orange for Aberrant. The Arcana ability is great! I can think of a dozen ways to use this, particularly for an infiltration/socially based character that's likely to use this bloodline. "Just a second, I need to cast Identify on this item, mr. shopkeeper" and then follow it up with charm person or suggestion. The biggest issue with social charms (charm person, domiate, suggestion) is that someone can see you casting them. This lets you pretend it's something entirely different, thus being super useful. Green, easily, if you're willing to use it.

Serpentine: I don't understand why you've specifically mentioned Decietful here when it's been on several lists and you've ignored it. Snakeskin is essentially the same as Draconic Resistance (give or take) yet is rated green instead of orange.

Shadow: Ray of Enfeeblement is blue here, while green for Accursed. Darkvision is green here, but orange for Deep Earth. Power Word Blind is really terrible, especially when you rated it so highly against powerful blind spells like Sunburst. Dodge is a decent choice for a bonus feat, as is Skill Focus, Silent Spell, and even Stealthy. That makes at least a green list.

Shaitan: Stoneskin isn't blue because of its expensive material component, and wall of Stone is easily blue- it's cheaper and mostly idential to Wall of Iron. Wall of Iron is likewise a green, maybe orange spell because of it's material cost and functional similarity to Wall of Stone. Plane Shift here is green, but red for Aberrant, and blue for Djinni and Marid. Iron Body is strictly red (maybe orange). You mark the bloodline as orange for melee, and Iron Body inflicts a 35% arcane spell failure chance. Wish, similarly is not blue. Arcana is probably green for previous reasons. Elemental Movement is way better than orange- probably green. You can easily get around the battlefield and escape your enemies if you're near earthy dirt. That's pretty nice.

Stormborn: Control Weather is nice, maybe blue, but it's definitely not sky blue. You need to be outside for it to even work, and a lot of the precipitation effects that you can create are going to be inflicting concentration checks on your party (or limiting sight). Plus it takes 20 minutes to even work. I'd say it's blue.

Undead: Animate Dead is likely green, not blue. You can't cast it regularly and it's very expensive to do so. Horrid Wilting is listed as blue for this one, but green for Pestilence. Also, Energy Drain is probably a green spell, not blue. Negative levels aren't anywhere near as powerful as in 3.5. The Arcana is doubly useful because it allows you to buff your undead companions (Animate Dead) with fun spells like Enlarge Person. The Sanguine Arcana is additionally useful because it allows you to raise more powerful undead. Grasp of the Dead also immobilizes your targets for 1 round.

Verdant: Entangle is probably green because of how situational it is. Speak with Plants is more useful than you give it credit for, but depends entirely on the DM. I'd rate it green. Command Plants is orange, easy. Plant creatures are among the rarest in the game at any level, and the super long duration means that even if you find a few you won't be casting it often. Plant Shape III is probably orange. You'll have to be very picky to select a version that lets you still cast. Shambler is also probably green, maybe orange. It's useful, but they last for a week at a time. That means that you've got a spell on your list that you're not using for 6 days out of the week. The bloodline arcana won't stack with other natural armor bonuses, but it will stack with an enhancement bonus to natural armor (ala Barkskin or an amulet). In the Groveborn Arcana you acknowledge that plant creatures are very rare, but then rate Command Plants a blue spell. I'm confused. Massmorph does not grant the plant subtype or immunity to mind-affecting spells, etc. It functions as either Tree Shape, Plant Shape I, or Plant Shape II.

Imperious: Eagle's Splendor is probably green, since it becomes useless once you get enhancement items. I'd probably rate Threefold Aspect as green instead of blue because it deals with enhancement bonuses and is constantly applying a penalty to something you want. Why is Greater Age Resistance marked as blue? Many groups (including PFS) don't use aging penalties, which makes this spell utterly useless. I'd mark it as grey, since it's completely dependent on your DM. Overwhelming Presence is blue here, but green for Martyred. Bonus feats aren't terrible. Improved Initiative is solid gold for any sorcerer, and Lingering Spell is great for those who use blasts for battlefield control. Magical Aptitude and Persuasive are both good boosts to skills you might use. You marked this bloodline arcana as orange, despite marking the more versatile Pit-Touched arcana as red. I'm thinking you also misunderstood how Heroic Echo works. First, it only adds +1 to the effect (not double, as you mention with Heroism). Second, it doesn't work on anything from the bard because all the bard's effects are supernatural, and this ability requires spell or spell-like. The sorcerer can't even use it on her own Heroic Legends because it's also a supernatural ability. It's a nice, modest ability that nudges up your magical boons for a bloodline that you rate as orange for melee (who gets the most benefit from this). I'd say the ability is probably green. Also, you can only share this little boost with allies if you're under the effect of an AoE/multi-target boost like Aid or Bless. It's good for groups with a divine caster, but I can't currently think of any multi-target morale/competence spells on the sorcerer's list.

Kobold: Disable Device is nice, no doubt, but you can't disable magical traps without Trapfinding. Alarm is green here, but red for Destined. Guards and Wards takes 30 minutes to cast, so I'd hardly consider it blue. Maybe green, probably orange. Form of the Dragon III is listed as green here, but blue for Draconic. I'm confused as to why you have Trap Rune as blue, but all the other damage dealing first level powers at orange. I'd say this is a green ability simply because you can line a few up in a narrow hallway and blast the heck out of something that runs through. Trap sense is nice, but it's no replacement for a rogue with Trapfinding. Arcane Ambush is fantastic- maybe even blue. It's a swift action to grant you and your allies a boost in damage. Just to be clear, that's the spell's level in damage to every attack/damage roll you make that turn. So a hasted fighter and two weapon fighting ranger flanking the Big Bad are now hitting with a +5 attack and +5 damage for each strike. And it's a swift action, so you can just follow it up with a very accurate ray. Earth Glide isn't just a burrow speed, it's a burrow speed that leaves no trail and lets you pass through solid stone. This is burrow on crack. It's blue, dude.

And that's the whole guide! I enjoyed reading it, and you've got an interesting take on the sorcerer bloodlines. You seem to favor dealing damage over disabling enemies, which I disagree with, but the community as a whole seems torn over this. You also regularly rate a bloodline's feats by looking at the whole and deciding if all of them are worth it, and I really don't agree with that. Sorcerers only get two or three bloodline feats depending on when their campaign ends, so if even two or three of the feats are great (for that bloodline) it should be rated as such. Your opinions are also frequently inconsistent as the guide goes on, which tells me that it was probably written in many sittings and your opinion shifted each time.

I hope you don't mind my dissection of the guide. I think it has a lot of potential and I enjoy your writing style. I love seeing new guides from the community, too! I hope this encourages you to iron out any inconsistencies within your work and perhaps take on a different perspective in certain areas (even if you don't agree with me).

Thanks for the guide, and I look forward to hearing from you!

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Sean FitzSimon wrote:

Hey! Reading through the guide and it's looking great so far. I had a couple comments for you, though.

Abyssal: Stoneskin is probably not a green spell- it's got a 250gp material component, so it's not something you're casting regularly. Also, you pan Rage and then give Transformation a green? They do very similar things in concept (boost melee ability while prohibiting spellcasting). Rage also has some use because it can be cast on your other party members. Dismissal is also probably an orange spell unless you're constantly facing off against outsiders and summoners. The feats are tricky for a sorcerer though. Augment Summoning is fantastic but you need to take Spell Focus: Conjuration before you can select it (tricky!), though Empower Spell and Great Fortitude are solid choices. Also, how the heck have you marked Added Summonings as an orange ability? All summon monster levels except 1, 2, and 4 give the option of summoning a demon (usually one of the most powerful and/or versatile options) and this lets you get two for the price of one. Just to repeat that, you get two of your highest level summon for a single spell. Sure, it only works on demons, but if you're going for the Abyssal bloodline it's to take advantage of all the unique stuff it can do- like summon two demons at once. This is blue, if not sky blue.

Acursed: you list gaining Perception as a class skill as "a HUGE boost for any sorcerer..." While it's a boost, and a solid one at that, it's only a +3 boost. It's more useful for Eldritch Heritage users who are forced to take skill focus. Also, you've listed the bonus feats as red? I don't agree with that at all. Deceitful is a decent enough boost to make disguise a class skill (if you're interested), and alertness gives a boost to the skill you already mentioned was amazing. Great fortitude is a fantastic feat for any class with a crappy fort save- after all, a failed fortitude save takes you out of the game. Wretched Endurance is probably a green, not orange. It's...

WOW, super detailed critique here, I love it! I'm slowly going through and making changes based on your suggestions, which are awesome.

Abyssal: Great point about Added Summonings, I didn't see that it worked for demons, I thought it was only for fiendish creatures. This means you could take Superior Summons also and then you get ANOTHER demon per casting! WOW!

Boreal: I'm gonna stick with red for any spell that doesn't let you cast spells during its effect, except for obviously melee-focused bloodlines.

Celestial: I agree about sunburst. I still like heavenly fire because it's something that you wouldn't have access to otherwise, and that gives it an extra point or two in my mind.

Daemon: I still like Wasting Ray as a debuff that they have to waste a turn to remove, so I'll leave it alone. I'll drop Wound Warp by a peg though, cuz I didn't think about the pitiful damage.

Deep Earth: Agreed on most points.

Destined: Agreed on most points.

Djinni: I like wish and related spells because they add to the versatility of your character. Yes, they're extremely expensive, but having the option to use it every so often is definitely worth blue, in my opinion. The bloodlines that give you limited wish as an SLA are just crazy awesome.

Draconic: I still disagree about wish. I also don't think that the Linnorm arcana is very good because there are so many better arcana out there to compare it to, and Dragon Resistances are going to make it (mostly) useless. I'll give you blue for wings though.

Dreamspun: As you've pointed out, I haven't been completely consistent through this on the spells, so I appreciate you letting me know when I've messed up. I wrote this guide over such a long period of time that I probably learned new things about some of the spells as I was writing. Anyway, I agree with several points here. I still dont' like Visionary arcana though.

I'll work on more later. Thank you SO MUCH for the detailed review!


It's great to have multiple opinions on something as complicated as bloodlines. There are so many tricks and combos to consider that it's mind boggling, and that's part of the reason I restricted my guide to pure caster sorcerers out of simplicity.

Although I think you've put a lot of thought into your ratings, there are a few I disagree on. The first one is the Maestro bloodline. You've rated it blue for buffers and battlefield controllers. I think you should reconsider your rating:
*Arcana: Most spells have somatic components, so benefiting from your arcana requires the Still Spell feat, which is totally not worth it for just +1 caster level.
*Beguiling Voice: This is just daze that scales with your level. Sorcerers have plenty of spell slots, you shouldn't have to resort to this kind of thing after the early levels when daze is useful.
*Fascinate: I love the idea of giving a sorcerer a bard ability, but this is by far the worst form of bardic music. At best, it gives a -4 penalty to perception checks. This ability should be the reddest of red.
*Perfect Voice: I don't value the ability to speak to any creature as much as you do, but I could see that varying wildly based on the campaign setting, so I'll let that one slide.
*Inspire: I disagree that a 6th level spell a handful of times per day at level 15 is "nothing to laugh at". Greater Heroism isn't that great a spell, and even if it was you'd probably want it as a spell known rather than such a limited use spell-like ability.
*Grand Maestro: Less disappointing than the rest of this bloodline's abilities, but still not what I would expect from a capstone. Sonic damage is incredibly rare, and the free Still Spell ability is only useful because of your bloodline arcana (which has been useless up until now unless you took the still spell feat, in which case the feat is now useless).

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I just think that the Maestro bloodline started with a good concept that was completely botched, and is now the most poorly thought out bloodline in any book.


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While it's not necessarily the case for all the incidents of it here, I feel the need to point out that sometimes it is legitimate to rate the same spell differently for different bloodlines when that spell has synergy or countersynergy with other spells and abilities of that bloodline.

For an arbitrary example, you might consider Burning Hands to be more valuable for the Orc bloodline than the Elemental bloodline on the grounds that Orc receives a bonus to its damage that makes it more powerful while Elemental receives a direct-damage bloodline power at first level that overlaps its function a little.

Likewise, both Kobold bloodline and Draconic bloodline receive Form Of The Dragon III, but you might rate it higher for Kobold because the benefits granted by the spell (resistance and breath weapon) overlap somewhat with the innate benefits of the Draconic bloodline, as well as Draconic bloodline getting the previous two Form Of The Dragons which makes any individual one of them a bit more redundant.


Benly wrote:

While it's not necessarily the case for all the incidents of it here, I feel the need to point out that sometimes it is legitimate to rate the same spell differently for different bloodlines when that spell has synergy or countersynergy with other spells and abilities of that bloodline.

For an arbitrary example, you might consider Burning Hands to be more valuable for the Orc bloodline than the Elemental bloodline on the grounds that Orc receives a bonus to its damage that makes it more powerful while Elemental receives a direct-damage bloodline power at first level that overlaps its function a little.

Likewise, both Kobold bloodline and Draconic bloodline receive Form Of The Dragon III, but you might rate it higher for Kobold because the benefits granted by the spell (resistance and breath weapon) overlap somewhat with the innate benefits of the Draconic bloodline, as well as Draconic bloodline getting the previous two Form Of The Dragons which makes any individual one of them a bit more redundant.

I would agree on two fronts because that's how I wrote my own guide. When I reviewed the mysteries of the oracle I rated everything on its own merit, how it interacted with the bloodline, and how it helped fulfill the basic goals of the mystery.

If the reviewer chooses to go with this idea it should be laid out at the beginning of the guide.


Benly wrote:

While it's not necessarily the case for all the incidents of it here, I feel the need to point out that sometimes it is legitimate to rate the same spell differently for different bloodlines when that spell has synergy or countersynergy with other spells and abilities of that bloodline.

For an arbitrary example, you might consider Burning Hands to be more valuable for the Orc bloodline than the Elemental bloodline on the grounds that Orc receives a bonus to its damage that makes it more powerful while Elemental receives a direct-damage bloodline power at first level that overlaps its function a little.

Likewise, both Kobold bloodline and Draconic bloodline receive Form Of The Dragon III, but you might rate it higher for Kobold because the benefits granted by the spell (resistance and breath weapon) overlap somewhat with the innate benefits of the Draconic bloodline, as well as Draconic bloodline getting the previous two Form Of The Dragons which makes any individual one of them a bit more redundant.

I was thinking the same thing. Darkvision is a more useful spell for Shadow than for Deep Earth because a shadow sorcerer will spend his spells making it dark. It synergizes really well.


I currently play two PFS sorcerers. One is Fighter 1/Arcane Sorc 4, going towards Eldritch Knight. The other is Starsoul.

I think you undersell the utility of the Starsoul bloodline a bit.

1) Starsoul's X/day minor damage power is area effect damage for a single square. This means that your party never ever has to worry about swarms. Also works well when someone else throws down an entangle, or a grapple. Note that the save DC got errata'd to scale with level which makes it MUCH more useful, especially with the Robes of Eldritch Heritage.
2) Unseen Servant and Floating Disk are two of the most useful "hour per day and forget about them" 1st level spells around. An Unseen Servant effectively gives you another action per round for getting things out of your backpack, the ability to pour potions down an ally's throat, the ability to pick up weapons that someone has disarmed from an enemy, the ability to remotely set off many kinds of traps, the ability to send something over water between ships...and Floating Disk lets you move one ally around the battle field on YOUR move action. Let me tell you, sending the Monk ahead on your move action so he can flurry from higher ground is an amazingly useful spell.
3) While Dazzle is the weakest of the conditions, it is also one that stacks with most other conditions. The fighter Dazzling Displays, you thrown down a fireball, the Cleric throws down a Bane and the entire enemy group is going to be lightly wounded and likely hitting at -4 to hit for the remainder of their very brief lives.
4) Low light vision for races that don't have it already (like most humans) is very useful. Especially for a blaster...

Contrariwise, I find most of the Bloodline Feats sub-par.

The Arcane bloodline is wonderful for going towards Eldritch Knight, because the Arcana adding +1 to save DCs if you're using metamagic synergizes nicely with using Still Spell for casting in armor.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Contagion is strictly red- it uses the DC of the disease, not your spell. Basically this means that they save vs. your spell and if they fail they then save vs. the DC of the disease. Awful.

I don't believe you're -quite- reading this correctly. As an affliction without an onset delay, the spell inflicts ability damage (and other associated ill effects) as soon as the spell save is failed. And THEN further damage based on the disease's save DC. Making it a fairly versatile debuff. Generally speaking, it is worse than Bestow Curse for PCs - as the effect tends initially to be lesser and the enemy is rarely expected to survive the battle past a couple rounds. But with the capacity to spread to other targets and cause further damage or loss of resources it is... decent... for NPC (divine) casters or traps.


Shadowdweller wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Contagion is strictly red- it uses the DC of the disease, not your spell. Basically this means that they save vs. your spell and if they fail they then save vs. the DC of the disease. Awful.
I don't believe you're -quite- reading this correctly. As an affliction without an onset delay, the spell inflicts ability damage (and other associated ill effects) as soon as the spell save is failed. And THEN further damage based on the disease's save DC. Making it a fairly versatile debuff. Generally speaking, it is worse than Bestow Curse for PCs - as the effect tends initially to be lesser and the enemy is rarely expected to survive the battle past a couple rounds. But with the capacity to spread to other targets and cause further damage or loss of resources it is... decent... for NPC (divine) casters or traps.

I posted a request for clarification nearly two years ago but never got anything back on it.


If an Ifrit Sorcerer with the crossblood of Elementel(F)/Draconic(Brass), I know BORING but not my character. Their Fire Affinity, as a sorcerer do they get both boost. Treat cha score as 2 pts high for all spell and spellcasters with fire domain use domain powers and spells at +1 CL.


Dot, I'm going to have to come back and digest this slowly. Sounds like some great work and great discussion going on here.


For pure roleplaying concepts:

Crossblooded Celestial and Infernal Oread character. Takes Eldritch Heritage: Ifrit bloodline.

"Yes, Paracountess. Family reunions are...interesting."


Halloooo. Voyd here, dropping by with a recommendation, assuming that Beck still comes around here and assuming I'm not doing anything bad by posting here.

I'd kinda like to see how some of these interact with the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype. All those crappy first-level powers? Have a free familiar instead.

I'm also looking at the Bedrock Wildbloodline, and with the Tattooed Sorcerer, you miss out on having that early DR 10/adamantine, since it replaces the 1st and 9th-level powers.

The TS also removes the one drawback of the Sage bloodline.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:

<…>

Abyssal: <…>Rage also has some use because it can be cast on your other party members.<…>

After reading the guide, I was going to point that and the fact it can be cast on more than one target (one target/three caster level). I think it is quite useful to cast it on summons that don’t cast spells; which is probably quite a lot of them.

For Transformation, I wonder if it is that bad for the bloodline because of all the melee oriented ability the bloodline gives. The problem is most don’t seem to stack except the bonus to Strength. The bull strength potion as a material component make the spell less useful too. It might only worth to cast it combined with a polymorph spell that doesn’t remove the ability to cast spells with material component, like Alter Self, Undead Anatomy, Giant Form, Monstrous Physique or Enlarge Person (if humanoid). The Strength from those spell are size bonus and stacks with Transformation, unlike Bull Strength; but the Natural Armor bonus doesn’t. I think it is a bit hard to benefit from the increased number of attacks and the gained martial proficiency.

Cause Fear might be useful at first level but gaining at 3rd makes it less interesting, because of the 5HD limit. At later level it become useless, and because it is a bloodline spell, can not be swapped.

Concerning Abyssal feats, it can be noted that it includes Skill Focus (Knowledge: Planes) which is a prerequisite of Eldricht Heritage for many of the bloodlines.


I'm a bit confused with the stormborn final thoughts. How can you take improved familiar when you don't already have a familiar. Does this need the Eldritch Heritage path to get it?

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I've updated my guide with the Div bloodline from People of the Sands!
Div Bloodline

If I've forgotten any other recent bloodlines, please let me know!

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Hyperlance wrote:
I'm a bit confused with the stormborn final thoughts. How can you take improved familiar when you don't already have a familiar. Does this need the Eldritch Heritage path to get it?

Thanks for the question!

The easiest way to do this would be to go Crossblooded (Arcane/Stormborn) and take the Familiar power at first level. That's how I'd do it.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I've updated my Guide to Sorcerer Bloodlines with the new Impossible Bloodline from Paizo's Champions of Balance!

Let me know what you guys think of my suggestions!


Hi there, thanks very much for doing this. I have started a similar guide several times but never had the time to finish it so finding an up and running one is great. I do however have a few comments/suggestions on the bloodline spells:

Aberrant: This is fairly obviously a pretty awkward bloodline, focused as it is around enhancements to melee. My issue here really is the rating for Veil, Plane Shift and Mind Blank. Veil is an amazing long duration multi target buff which can affect your entire party for the whole day. This is absolutely a spell you will cast every single day and makes any form of stealth or infiltration mission much easier. Plane Shift is quite simply the best Will based save or lose spell around. Sure you don't want to use it on an NPC with PC level wealth but things like Purple Worms, Giants, Krakens and the Tarraque have terrible will saves and sending them to the positive material plane is hilarious. Rating it red, especially on a bloodline which is better at delivering touch attacks is just wrong. Plane Shift is solid blue. Similarly Mind Blank is a cornerstone of high level caster play. It doesn't grant immunity to mind affects now which is a buff as it means enchantment remains a viable school. However it's ability to allow you to remain undetected by see invisible or true seeing is huge. Most others forms of invisibility detection (scent, bllindsense/sight, tremorsense) have very short ranges and this allows you to unleash hell from a position of much greater safety.

Abyssal: Unholy Aura is a complete stinker of a spell. At the level you get it (17th) you most certainly have bought at least a +5 cloak of resistance and probably the ring of protection as well. The other effects simply aren't worth a level 8 spell slot. It's only use is likely NPC spellcasters with NPC wealth who cannot afford actual real gear. No PC should really be casting this. On the flip side SMIX is a solid blue especially with the additional summons. 1d3+2 level 8 summons are a strong option although the 1 round cast time is a pain.

Aquatic: Summon Monster VII for much the same reasons as SMIX above. Summons are powerful effective options which ignore SR. The addition of smite good/evil on a multiattacking pouncing creature like the Dire Tiger allows for a lot of potential damage and a great deal of battlefield blocking.

Celestial: It is probably worth noting that this could be a great option for a sorcerer looking to engage in Dazing Spell based blasting. Getting Flame Strike on your list means you don't have to worry about elemental immunity/resistances negating the opportunity to apply daze and you can therefore save yourself a feat on Elemental Spell or some spells known on alternate energy types. At high levels Flame Strike makes a great choice for Spell Perfection to apply aoe Daze. Also you don't take Emmpyreal to play a Monk/Sorcerer, you do it to have a much better casting stat than Charisma.

Daemon: Horrid Wilting isn't blue, it is honestly barely yellow. It is a subpar blast spell. It only affects living targets, its damage cap is the same as chain lightning but being two levels higher limits the addition of empower/intensify/dazing. Also it is a fort save spell and monsters tend to have higher fort saves than reflex/will. This is not a spell I would ever look to take given how much amazing stuff their is at level 8.

Deep Earth: Clashing Rocks, another sub par blasting spell with the same damage cap as chain lightning and no real way to enhance it. It ignores SR which is vaguely useful but so does Caustic Eruption and it will do more damage at a lower level. Another spell to avoid.

Destined:Freedom of Movement is solid blue for any arcane spellcaster with the exception of the teleportation subschool wizard. 10 minutes per level to ignore the most dangerous condition you will ever face as a caster is great. Sure it becomes obsolete later on when you pick up a ring but for a large part of your career it is absolutely golden. Similarly Moment of Prescience is an amazing spell, largely due to its ability to compel Planar Bound critters through a huge boost to the opposed Charisma check.

Div: You seem to be quite keen on blasting spells with Disintegrate being rated blue. The combination of attack roll (often made at -8 due to shooting into melee and cover) combined with a fortitude save means this often isn't doing much. Its main use really is in bringing down walls of force or tunnelling through places.

Djinn: You rate Overland Flight blue here but sky blue under Arcane (it is sky blue). You also have Plane Shift blue here and Red for Aberrant. In the era of Dazing Spell chain lightning has become a solid blue spell. Discriminating targeted control with long range at its best.

Draconic: It is probably worth noting that you really get screwed on bloodline spells here by being stuck with all 3 form of the dragons. III is arguably sky blue until you get Shapechange as it allows you to gain immunity to any single element. They all become obsolete once you get shapechange at 18/19.

Efreeti: Nowadays I don't think you can assume that blasts are bad, you have to account for the existence of Dazing Spell. Fireball is a great mid level means of applying it to an area. Scorching Ray is a decent way of using targeted daze. Dazing Wall of Fire is utterly brutal and kills anything which fails its first save which doesn't have fire resistance. Plane Shift is back again but green this time. Planar Binding really needs to be blue. It allows anything from a stat boost from the succubus profane gift to bringing along your own CR13 pet in the form of a Glabrezu.

Elemental: You rate form of the dragon as blue but elemental body as green. For utility it is hard to beat this spell. One spell is giving you the potential for darkvision, flight, a swim speed and the ability to operate under water, earth glide and later on immunity to crits, bleed and sneak attack. It is an amazing package although it is a shame you get saddled with all of them. I would definitely take EBI early on and quite possibly trade it out later for IV.

Infernal: Planar Binding needs to change, it is simply too good to ignore. Meteor Swarm is a bad blast spell and green is far too generous to it. 6d6 explosion damage per sphere means something with Fire Resistance 10 takes an average of 44 damage from the explosions assuming it fails each save. It is a terrible terrible spell.

Martyr: Blessing of Fervour is a great spell, for a Cleric. When you can get Haste at a level lower it rather loses a lot of its attraction. Mind Blank is again a cornerstone spell, absolutely essential at high level. Joyful Rapture on the other hand is really very limited. How many harmful emotion effects are out there that make it worth casting a level 7 spell?

Oni: I have a hard time seeing Ray of Enfeeblement as blue when colour spray, sleep and grease are out there. Bear in mind that stat penalties don't actually reduce the stat, they simply affect certain derived statistics.

Orc: I am also not seeing how Bulls Strength is really blue. This is another of those spells for NPC's who cannot afford actual equipment under the NPC creation rules. Not sure I would want to waste my action in combat giving an ally +2 hit and damage when I could instead be glitterdusting or creating a pit or something. Meteor Swarm and Wall of Fire could also do with a relook.

Pestilence: Horrid Wilting - I would regrade this to red for the reasons given above.

Protean: Confusion is a solid blue will based battlefield control spell. Yes there will be some things immune but nothing like as many as people complain about but when it does work it can end encounters on its own. If a confused creature attacks another confused creature then they will become locked into a cycle of continuously attacking each other. Provided nothing else attacks them they will fight until the spell ends or one of them is dead. Absolutely brutal.

Rakshasa: Mind Blank for reasons already mentioned.

Shaitan: At the level you get it Wall of Stone is one of the best battlefield control spells around. Dividing up an encounter so you only fight part of it at a time its extremely potent. Later on more enemies teleport or will be able to break through too quickly to make much difference but it is very strong for quite some time. Plane Shift is green here again.

Starsoul: Another slightly inconsistent Overland Flight reference and Meteor Swarm turns up again. Yu have Repulsion rated as blue and I would be sorely tempted to make it sky blue. It is non mind affecting will based control which completely hoses anything which doesn't have a ranged option or can teleport which covers a lot of enemies.

Undead: I am really not seeing how Undeath to Death is blue. It is a niche spell against an enemy type which often has very high HD meaning it will often not work on very much at all. I would struggle to rate it as yellow. Horrid Wilting shows up again and again looks like a terrible red blast which cannot daze without a greater rod which are very expensive. You could get by using a Staff of the Master Necromancer but personally I would tag it to something like Sunburst before Horrid Wilting given the enormous area.

Verdant: OK, AC often isn't a huge deal for arcane casters but Barkskin is hard to pass up. Long duration +5AC at level 12, easily extended with a cheap rod it is a great low level buff.

I hope these comments are helpful and I would just like to end by saying thanks very much for all the work you have put in on this.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

andreww wrote:

Hi there, thanks very much for doing this. I have started a similar guide several times but never had the time to finish it so finding an up and running one is great. I do however have a few comments/suggestions on the bloodline spells:

Aberrant: This is fairly obviously a pretty awkward bloodline, focused as it is around enhancements to melee. My issue here really is the rating for Veil, Plane Shift and Mind Blank. Veil is an amazing long duration multi target buff which can affect your entire party for the whole day. This is absolutely a spell you will cast every single day and makes any form of stealth or infiltration mission much easier. Plane Shift is quite simply the best Will based save or lose spell around. Sure you don't want to use it on an NPC with PC level wealth but things like Purple Worms, Giants, Krakens and the Tarraque have terrible will saves and sending them to the positive material plane is hilarious. Rating it red, especially on a bloodline which is better at delivering touch attacks is just wrong. Plane Shift is solid blue. Similarly Mind Blank is a cornerstone of high level caster play. It doesn't grant immunity to mind affects now which is a buff as it means enchantment remains a viable school. However it's ability to allow you to remain undetected by see invisible or true seeing is huge. Most others forms of invisibility detection (scent, bllindsense/sight, tremorsense) have very short ranges and this allows you to unleash hell from a position of much greater safety.

Abyssal: Unholy Aura is a complete stinker of a spell. At the level you get it (17th) you most certainly have bought at least a +5 cloak of resistance and probably the ring of protection as well. The other effects simply aren't worth a level 8 spell slot. It's only use is likely NPC spellcasters with NPC wealth who cannot afford actual real gear. No PC should really be casting this. On the flip side SMIX is a solid blue especially with the additional summons. 1d3+2 level 8 summons...

WOW I totally missed this post! You've obviously put a LOT of thought into these, so I'm going to go through and try to update my guide with all the suggestions you've put in here!

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I've added the Harrow Bloodline from the Harrow Handbook to my guide today!

Magic in the Blood


Some thoughts on Aberrant:

It is definitely a melee sorcerer, but it is NOT a weapons-and-claws sorcerer, like the Abyssal or Draconic bloodlines. Aberrant is the Touch Attack specialist, the Bad Touch Cleric version of the Sorcerer. When I played an Aberrant Sorcerer, I found Chill Touch and Elemental Touch to be excellent spells, as a single casting allowed me multiple rounds of attacks. Higher levels, and Bestow Curse (which is a touch attack) becomes very useful.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Note since you forfeit the Wings of Heaven power when you take the Empyreal form of the Celestial Bloodline, you don't get the improved or any version as part of the capstone.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Noted those two things, thanks guys!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sean FitzSimon wrote:

And I'm back to continue on.

Maestro While you might want perform for flavor, the Fascinate ability at 3rd level doesn't actually use or require a perform check. Perform for anyone but a bard is entirely flavor (i.e. mechanically equivalent to Profession). The bloodline arcana here is probably orange, or even red. Spells with only verbal components are very rare unless you're willing to invest in Still Spell. Beguiling Voice might actually be green, since it cannot exceed your sorcerer level in HD. This means that frequently the Big Bad is immune to this effect, which is when it's most useful. Perfect Voice isn't green- it's bright blue. This makes the Language Dependent component of many amazing spells applicable to anything that can speak, and boosts the DC by 1. Like suggestion.

I agree that the bloodline arcana on this is pretty useless. I picked Maestro for RP flavor rather than overall power, but oh my god... The arcana just sucks on this one.

Hmm

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Hmm wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:

And I'm back to continue on.

Maestro While you might want perform for flavor, the Fascinate ability at 3rd level doesn't actually use or require a perform check. Perform for anyone but a bard is entirely flavor (i.e. mechanically equivalent to Profession). The bloodline arcana here is probably orange, or even red. Spells with only verbal components are very rare unless you're willing to invest in Still Spell. Beguiling Voice might actually be green, since it cannot exceed your sorcerer level in HD. This means that frequently the Big Bad is immune to this effect, which is when it's most useful. Perfect Voice isn't green- it's bright blue. This makes the Language Dependent component of many amazing spells applicable to anything that can speak, and boosts the DC by 1. Like suggestion.

I agree that the bloodline arcana on this is pretty useless. I picked Maestro for RP flavor rather than overall power, but oh my god... The arcana just sucks on this one.

Hmm

Okay, I've revised my opinion on this. Here are the spells that are affected by the arcana of Maestro that I and my friend Bret have found so far:

Verbal + Material
Light (0)
Lighten Object (1, Faiths of Balance)
Ventriloquism (1) * Bloodline
Darkness (2)
Suggestion (3) * Bloodline
Tongues (3)
Vision of Hell (3, Ultimate Magic)
Imbue with Flight (4)
Tongues, Communal (4)
Lighten Object, Mass (5, Faiths of Balance)
Suggestion, Mass (6) *Bloodline
Teleport Structure (6)
Teleportation Circle (9)

Verbal Only
Flare (Lvl 0)
Feather Fall (Lvl 1)
Flare Burst (Lvl 1, Advanced Players Guide)
Hold Portal (Lvl 1)
True Strike (Lvl 1)
Blindness/Deafness (Lvl 2*)
Blur (Lvl 2)
Knock (Lvl 2)
Steal Voice (Lvl 2, Ultimate Magic)
Dimension Door (Lvl 4*)
Geas, Lesser (Lvl 4*)
Shout (Lvl 4) * Bloodline
Contact Other Plane (Lvl 5*)
Damnation Stride (Lvl 5, Advanced Race Guide)
Echolocation (Lvl 5, Ultimate Magic)
Planar Adaptation (Lvl 5, Advanced Players Guide)
Teleport (Lvl 5*)
Truespeak (Lvl 5, Advanced Race Guide)
Geas/Quest (Lvl 6*)
Ice Crystal Teleport (Lvl 6, Ultimate Magic)
Phase Door (Lvl 7)
Power Word Blind (Lvl 7)
Resonating Word (Lvl 7, Ultimate Magic)
Teleport Object (Lvl 7)
Teleport, Greater (Lvl 7*)
Charm Monster, Mass (Lvl 8*)
Irresistible Dance (Lvl 8*)
Power Word Stun (Lvl 8)
Fiery Body (Lvl 9, Advanced Players Guide)
Interplanetary Teleport (Lvl 9, Ultimate Magic)
Mage's Disjunction (Lvl 9)
Power Word Kill (Lvl 9)
Prismatic Sphere (Lvl 9)
Time Stop (Lvl 9)
Wail of the Banshee (Lvl 9) * Bloodline

That's more than a Sorcerer can conceivably learn, so there's a lot of stuff you can do. I think the real problem here is that the spell search engines make it really difficult to find spells affected by the Maestro arcana. I initially found only a very limited list. It would be nice if there was a link under the listing of Maestro to these spells somewhere.

All in all, I've decided that the Maestro Arcana (while not as awesome as others) is worthy of at least a green rating, if not the blue that the guide gives it.

Hmm


You can search google for

site:paizo.com non-somatic spells

This list is also useful for Eldritch Knights because those spells can be cast in full plate without still spell.


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I think the power "Harrowed Home" from the Harrowed Blood line has more use then just being a free mage's magnificent mansion.

it says that all time stops in the Harrowed Home as the user is not in the Harrowed Home where all time restarts in the home.

Some of the ideas i could use with it is to

1.put dead party members in to stop their body's from rotting.
2.as it a portal that you make and need to designate who can go in, you can designate a "bad guy" so he could go in, then get him by say bull rush or tricking him, so when he goes in, he gets stop in time until the user comes in, giving the party time if they need it to heal up and maybe take him some where.
3.Some one only got so long to live? stop him in time until you can do something about it.
4.Could keep a spell going in there and it last a lot longer.
5. unlike mage's magnificent mansion it is the same place so you can use it as a moving place to keep items, set up a lab.
6. could use it to keep a Clone of your self in there, and the body would not rot and if you die, you get send to your body in the Harrowed Home where time would restart. only down side is you had is the clone would be made if your not in there so you may need to grow the clone else where and move it, or just be in there a lot of the time.

only downside i can think of if anything is in there when the user dies then i not sure what goes on with the Harrowed Home like is it are all the things there traped in time for good, can other people free them or do you need to get the user back to live to save them and so on.


HiddenBoss wrote:

I think the power "Harrowed Home" from the Harrowed Blood line has more use then just being a free mage's magnificent mansion.

it says that all time stops in the Harrowed Home as the user is not in the Harrowed Home where all time restarts in the home.

Some of the ideas i could use with it is to

1.put dead party members in to stop their body's from rotting.
2.as it a portal that you make and need to designate who can go in, you can designate a "bad guy" so he could go in, then get him by say bull rush or tricking him, so when he goes in, he gets stop in time until the user comes in, giving the party time if they need it to heal up and maybe take him some where.
3.Some one only got so long to live? stop him in time until you can do something about it.
4.Could keep a spell going in there and it last a lot longer.
5. unlike mage's magnificent mansion it is the same place so you can use it as a moving place to keep items, set up a lab.
6. could use it to keep a Clone of your self in there, and the body would not rot and if you die, you get send to your body in the Harrowed Home where time would restart. only down side is you had is the clone would be made if your not in there so you may need to grow the clone else where and move it, or just be in there a lot of the time.

only downside i can think of if anything is in there when the user dies then i not sure what goes on with the Harrowed Home like is it are all the things there traped in time for good, can other people free them or do you need to get the user back to live to save them and so on.

i would guess you need to revive the sorcerer to get them out, since time does not progress without him/her

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I've added the Ghoul bloodline from the Monster Codex to the guide!

Bloodline Guide

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I've also added a quick note in each entry about Eldritch Heritage and Variant Multiclass, and how useful the given bloodline is when used in that way. Only one bloodline left to go! (Nanite)


Just an update the Imperious Bloodline at 11th level - not 'Pure Strain' whatever that was and that heroic echo works only on 'any spell, spell-like ability, or magic item'.

Possibly needs a look at.

G

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Fixed the pure strain, which has been FAQ'd to be replaced with repulsion. Not sure what you're getting at with the heroic echo though.


Apologies - late here in the U.K.

Is Barbarian rage a 'spell, spell-like ability, or magic item'? Essentially. If not the Heroic Echo does not grant an additional bonus obviously.


cartmanbeck wrote:
Only one bloodline left to go! (Nanite)

Any ETA on that? :P

I play in an iron gods game and i had an idea for a crossblooded Nanite/Impossible Sorcerer

Scarab Sages

Sorry to be Mr. Frownyface, but at long last, I have to say something:

Am I the only one who hates the very concept of all these "class guides?" There's enough groupthink and narrow, unsubstantiated dogmatism running around these boards without it being fostered by a few people enshrining their editorials in official-looking writeups so as to spare others the trouble of reading, thinking, and judging for themselves.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Sorry to be Mr. Frownyface, but at long last, I have to say something:

Am I the only one who hates the very concept of all these "class guides?" There's enough groupthink and narrow, unsubstantiated dogmatism running around these boards without it being fostered by a few people enshrining their editorials in official-looking writeups so as to spare others the trouble of reading, thinking, and judging for themselves.

Well, i personally like the class guides, because while i may be able to make a competent character easily enough it is still nice to see other people's recomendations because they may have found combinations and other synergistic things that fit what i want, and at the same time that i may have missed


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Sorry to be Mr. Frownyface, but at long last, I have to say something:

Am I the only one who hates the very concept of all these "class guides?" There's enough groupthink and narrow, unsubstantiated dogmatism running around these boards without it being fostered by a few people enshrining their editorials in official-looking writeups so as to spare others the trouble of reading, thinking, and judging for themselves.

I have no idea if you are the only one. I would bet against it. I find myself in the same camp as Hazrond. I don't have the time to keep up with, let alone analyze, all of the products that are released, so this is a Cliff Notes for me to help narrow down options or to find innovative combinations.

I believe I have only intentionally used a single guide's suggestions, though - the others have acted as food for thought.

Scarab Sages

I just don't like how they say "THIS is so good you'd have to be stoopid not to go with it, THAT is so bad the developers must have been stoopid to put it in" - nearly everything's situational. The only way you could really judge things in such a linear, absolutist manner as the color-coding scheme indicates is if the game is being run like an MMO, with a poor mix of challenges and situations, and little to no facilitation of creative/non-linear problem-solving and going off the beaten path. Also bad is that it discourages experimentation, and of course the claim that "I don't like this class/ability/spell/feat/whatever, and I therefore don't think you should either." Finally, there's the echo-chamber mentality it sets up, where next thing you know, players who dare to think for themselves are being mistreated and marginalized because "The Class Guide Says Not To Do That!"


Well, people come to the forums to share their opinions and to see those of others. Thanks for sharing.

As a thought (no snark intended), perhaps you need to create a thread to see what conversation your point of view generates. I would expect the typical reader of this thread is going to be at least somewhat favorably disposed toward guides considering that's what the thread clearly identifies itself as.

I would probably watch such a thread, just to see if there's anything of value that comes out of it.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Hazrond wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:
Only one bloodline left to go! (Nanite)

Any ETA on that? :P

I play in an iron gods game and i had an idea for a crossblooded Nanite/Impossible Sorcerer

I'll try to attack that one tomorrow night if possible.


After you get done with that, any plans for a guide to Bloodrager Bloodlines?


Hey, so I'm trying to create a character that focuses on using electricity to attack and for other various things if possible. I've got my eyes on the djinni and stormborn bloodlines, but what would you guys recommend for me? I'm fairly new, and any advice would be appreciated. c:

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Nanite bloodline is up!

@UnArcaneElection: I would definitely like to do the bloodrager if I can find the time. It'll be a little while though.

@explodingtyphlosions: I would definitely go Stormborn over any of the standard elemental type bloodlines, and definitely consider the Arial version of Stormborn so that you can cast a storm-themed spell that causes precipitation and get a good deal more damage.

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