If a Monk is in your party, is he so weak he's a liability? Is he so bad, that it'd be better to have a party of three than a party of four where one of them is a Monk?
I don't think I've seen it proven in any of the threads that the Monk is that bad. Who cares if other classes are "better"?
I've read all threads about the monk, and generally agree that the monk is a less then capable class. (If you disagree, then this is probably not the thread for you.) As a GM, I'd be happy to fix that but I don't have a coherent set of rules changes to make. What type of minimal changes would you make to bring the monk up to a credible meleer -- or to credibly fulfill another role you think they're designed to fulfill but don't?
* Unarmed combat accuracy and damage based on Wisdom, NOT Strength. (Monks are wise fighters, not brutes.)
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Bring back combat maneuvers.
Now let only Monks take the tiger roll, which lets them pounce.
And let's not forget that the 'full BAB' is at -2 for 'two weapon fighting' which is a poor combat style;It's not fair to directly compare flurry of blows to two-weapon fighting though. Off-hand attacks, normally, require a light weapon, which halves the bonus from strength and power attack. So... as a fighter who doesn't dig shields, your options are hit once at your full bonus for 1dX+Str and a half, or you can hit twice at -2 for a combined total of 2dX+Str and a half... on full attacks only, after blowing a feat... and another feat every time you get an extra attack... and enchanting that spare weapon up... and then there's DR. You're paying a ton of extra costs that don't apply to two-handing, and all you get out of that is doubling up on the die-roll portion of your damage, which usually is not a significant portion of the total damage a well-oiled melee character is putting out there.
I agree, it's not a fair comparison, but not for the reasons you cite. A TWFing fighter doubles not just his dice but his bonuses to hit and damage from Weapon Specialisation feats and weapon training, and those static bonuses are where the real damage comes from, especially when they multiply on critical hits.
The monk on the other hand is stuck with some really dire weapons, the best of them is the temple sword, which is an also-ran weapon at best.
The fighter, when faced with a high AC target, can ditch the extra attacks and gain +2 to hit; the monk cannot. The fighter has access to a bunch of feats such as Two Weapon Defence, Two Weapon Rend, etc. that the monk does not get access to.
With Flurry of Blows though, you're taking that -2 penalty to hit for two full strength attacks. You're not paying a feat tax, you're not paying for a second weapon, and if you run up against DR, your unarmed attacks (which don't require you to put any weapon you may otherwise be using down) can probably ignore it.
Really? The monk's unarmed strikes can overcome magic, lawful and at very high level adamantine DR. At 4th level every fighter has a magic weapon, so they overcome that DR. They can make their weapons of materials that overcome DR/cold iron or DR/silver or when they get to +3 they overcome this automatically; at +4 it overcomes hardness-based and at +5 all alignment based. They can enhance their weapons asymmetrically, so that they always have one top-of-the-range weapon for their level. Because of the cost of the AoMF, the monk is always +1 or +2 behind the fighter in enhancement.
In other words, the fighter is far more likely to overcome DR than the monk, both through raw damage and through enhancement, weapon properties and the like.
Basically, you're just trading -2 to hit for an extra half a str/power attack bonus and full die roll, which I think is worth it more often than not. You can even keep your 1.5 damage mod on standard attacks if you're fighting with, say, a staff (although then you're back to that 3/4 BAB thing, but then again, you can get around the whole issue by starting off with a combat maneuver opener).
And as pointed out, you lose a mass of advantages too. The fighter can two-hand any of his one-handed or light weapons, get that x1.5 strength damage, and instead of losing up to +3 BAB he gains +2 BAB.
Maneuvers, sadly, are great at lower levels, but at higher level they really start to suck for several reasons:
1) Most maneuvers do not gain enhancement bonuses, but CMD does from deflection AC and dodge AC.
2) A lot of monsters are large and/or have non-humanoid physiques.
When we ran the numbers for CR13 foes and a level 13 monk, we found the monk was unable to use maneuvers to any significant effect.
It's also worth mentioning, even though it doesn't come up very often, that Flurry of Blows works with shurikens.
Yes, and shurikens are ammunition do you do not need to draw them. Their awesome 1d2 damage and 20' range is enough to...annoy something, and that's about it. The one time I used them I wished I hadn't bothered.
Oh yes, and there's also the ki point for an extra attack option upping the value of flurries somewhat. And the fact that you can use them while grappling.
See my comment on maneuvers above. Grappling has worked for me under level 6, but past that the lack of enhancement advantages really starts to fall off.
The extra ki-point is in my experience most often spent boosting AC to protect my lower hit points (couldn't afford to pump Con on top of everything else, and those d8's don't deliver much). Even if you use it to gain an extra attack, one extra hit at low damage output doesn't make a huge difference.
I may be wrong, but somewhere in the Player's Guide Core or DM section. High and Veritcal jumps are not suppose to go pass the full movement rate *land speed* number of the PC's mobility.
Acrobatics skill. "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round." That's in reference to horizontal distance though. For height, that's never going to come up. OK, it might for merfolk, but otherwise the lowest that's going to be is 20', assuming you take a standard action the round you're trying this. Jumping 20' straight up is DC80. With jump as a class skill, 20 ranks in it, the jump skill, and a nat 20 on your roll, you'd still need at least 32 dex for that to come up, and for practical purposes, 21' and 20' are basically the same distance. You'd need to hit 25' for it to matter, that's a DC of 100.
And this right here is my basic point. The rules for jumping height are fairly realistic, but environments in Pathfinder have a tendency to conform to this 5' 3D grid, with everything built on an impractically huge scale. I'm sitting at my desk in a 10' by 10' room, which is actually pretty spacious, but the rules say only 4 people fit in here. 10' across is a cramped hallway. The ceiling is probably 10' up if not more. Falling damage works exclusively off 10' intervals, spells like create pit go by multiples of 10' (and generally quite a lot of them), flying creatures change their elevation 5' at a time (usually more like 15' or 30', practically speaking), anything intended for climbing goes by a quarter of your move, half if you're in a rush, so there you're also in multiples of 10' generally. So if you want to jump vertically and hit something above you, or get up onto something, you're shooting for some some multiple of 10' 95% of the time, and that last 5% you're still going to need an extra 5' to matter for anything.
So... OK. Monks get an option to blow a point of ki for a 5' bonus, which isn't bad. They also add their level to jump checks, so assuming they're putting a rank into acrobatics every level, that's another 5' at levels 10 and 20. You can make a whole 20' if 3+your dex+1d20 gets you at least a 20. Have someone cast that Jump spell on you and you can probably hit 25' but honestly, you're level 20 characters, they can just cast fly. It's only a level 3 spell, and that'll let you climb 30' as a single move action, no rolling required, and stay up there, and continue gaining.
And again, practically speaking, jumping just 25' is basically useless. If you're trying to jump onto something, you could just climb it. In a hurry, up a flat brick wall, without a rope, we're looking at a DC of 30 to go half speed (so, 45' straight up presumably). At level 20, you should be able to make that without even rolling. Plus, pits and the like generally have a depth of a good 30' or so at the least. The other situation it'd be handy to pull a high jump is if you're fighting something airborn that buzzes you for a melee attack and then climbs away. You rarely see anything with a fly speed of less that 60' though, which will let you climb 30' which is just enough to stay safe here.
Meanwhile, if spending ki for High Jump gave you a DC=height attained skill check instead of that +20 bonus, you should be hitting somewhere between 10' and 30' at level 5 when you first get it, 50-70 by level 20. Those seem like reasonable leaping heights for spending a point from a high demand, shallow pool of special ability activations to me. I can reliably get over a wall, and hopefully tag a flying monster at low levels, at high levels I can snag a withdrawing flier, but still can't jump straight out of an acid pit no matter what I roll.
Plus some folks may forget to add their own height on top of the clearance height of a jump, e.g. attaining a VJ of 8 ft is around DC 32, add that with the PC's own like 5 ft +, and you gaining around 13 ft and some plus inches in height.
If you're talking about just catching the lip or something, no. The acrobatics skill says you can only manage that if you miss the roll to land on it by 4 or less, and make a reflex save. If you're talking about just barely tagging something for an attack, I think it's generally ruled that a 5' reach applies both horizontally and vertically, even if you're quite a bit over 5' tall.
If a Monk is in your party, is he so weak he's a liability? Is he so bad, that it'd be better to have a party of three than a party of four where one of them is a Monk?
The monk is not a liability in terms that he diverts resources from the rest of the party. However, he is unable to contribute effectively either in many situations. Making a monk that can contribute is an art-form all of it's own, and even if you get it right you are running to keep up. In other words, having a monk in the party can leave the party feeling as if it is a three-character party, not a four-character party.
Also the monk struggles to fill any of the traditional roles - he is not a front-liner, and he is not a scout. He can make a passable scout, but it's not easy, makes him yet more MAD, and a rogue or ranger would do the job better anyway.
I don't think I've seen it proven in any of the threads that the Monk is that bad. Who cares if other classes are "better"?
That depends on your view of 'better' really. To me it means 'able to contribute' and with a monk it's not easy. Your means of contributing in combat is to hit things, and the monk is in some ways worse at this than the rogue - at least a rogue has a clear strategy and ability: flank and sneak attack. The monk does not; he has stunning fist, but it's too erratic to rely on (struggle to hit, then struggle to do damage, then they get a save = low odds of success).
And let's not forget that the 'full BAB' is at -2 for 'two weapon fighting' which is a poor combat style;It's not fair to directly compare flurry of blows to two-weapon fighting though. Off-hand attacks, normally, require a light weapon, which halves the bonus from strength and power attack. So... as a fighter who doesn't dig shields, your options are hit once at your full bonus for 1dX+Str and a half, or you can hit twice at -2 for a combined total of 2dX+Str and a half... on full attacks only, after blowing a feat... and another feat every time you get an extra attack... and enchanting that spare weapon up... and then there's DR. You're paying a ton of extra costs that don't apply to two-handing, and all you get out of that is doubling up on the die-roll portion of your damage, which usually is not a significant portion of the total damage a well-oiled melee character is putting out there.I agree, it's not a fair comparison, but not for the reasons you cite. A TWFing fighter doubles not just his dice but his bonuses to hit and damage from Weapon Specialisation feats and weapon training, and those static bonuses are where the real damage comes from, especially when they multiply on critical hits.
The monk on the other hand is stuck with some really dire weapons, the best of them is the temple sword, which is an also-ran weapon at best.
The fighter, when faced with a high AC target, can ditch the extra attacks and gain +2 to hit; the monk cannot. The fighter has access to a bunch of feats such as Two Weapon Defence, Two Weapon Rend, etc. that the monk does not get access to.
Furthermore, do the math on 2x Str bonus versus 1.5x Str bonus. A monk with Strength 14 has a +2 Str bonus, so an extra 0.5x Str bonus is only one more damage. And that is per Flurry of Blows rather than per attack, so it is effectively an extra half a damage per attack. The Core Rulebook monk lost more damage than that from being forced to use 1d6 monk weapons rather than a 1d8 longsword. The introduction of the 1d8 Temple Sword gave the monk more benefit.
Fortunately for people trying to create an effective monk, it improves at Strength 16, becoming two more damage per flurry. If the monk can get up to Strength 20, it is three more damage. Now look at the consequences of that math. An optimized monk requires at least 16 Strength. On a 20-point High Fantasy build, the monk character can also afford a 14 Wisdom and a 14 Dexterity, for an AC of 14, due to the Wisdom bonus to AC. Most of us visualize a monk as a wise and dextrous character, so why are Wisdom and Dexerity his second and third highest stats?
In other words, in order to take advantage of that 2x Str bonus, we have to build a monk that does not strongly resemble the monks of history and fiction.
Another option, that instead of making them a solo melee class, make them a teamwork melee class. Give them bonuses to Aid Another, let them do it with faster actions (like a Swift), or to replace an attack, etc. The problem with that is it becomes a one-trick pony and doesn't work for small parties or independently.
I love the idea of a monk making an Aid Another action in place of an attack. Especially if the Aid Another bonuses stack, which will let it work for small parties.
MONK: I cannot hurt this scaly beast. Let me strike it in both legs and its snout to force an opening for your attack, friend fighter. (i.e. three Aid Another attempts in a Flurry of Blows.)
FIGHTER: Thank you, friend monk. Now I shall strike it most grievously. (i.e. +6 to my attack roll! Here comes the Power Attack.)
The monk fix focusing on teamwork has three advantages:
1. The monk class says, "Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most." The time to let the monk aid allies is long overdue.
2. Improving teamwork instead of direct combat abilities is less likely to lead so some overpowered builds of a min-maxed monk.
3. The true strength and true fun of a party is in its teamwork.
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I've read all threads about the monk, and generally agree that the monk is a less then capable class. (If you disagree, then this is probably not the thread for you.) As a GM, I'd be happy to fix that but I don't have a coherent set of rules changes to make. What type of minimal changes would you make to bring the monk up to a credible meleer -- or to credibly fulfill another role you think they're designed to fulfill but don't?* Unarmed combat accuracy and damage based on Wisdom, NOT Strength. (Monks are wise fighters, not brutes.)
That is one of the VERY few monk fixes that makes sense and doesn't wind up making them too powerful.
Paizo are not going to do a class re-write, they are looking at small tweaks. This does not make fixing the monk impossible, you can do it sufficiently to satisfy the monk fans, if you do it right.
That is one of the VERY few monk fixes that makes sense and doesn't wind up making them too powerful.* Unarmed combat accuracy and damage based on Wisdom, NOT Strength. (Monks are wise fighters, not brutes.)
Which is why it is the drum I keep banging, although I also think they should use their Wisdom modifier for CMB.
I agree, Wisdom to CMB and to hit, not necessarily damage if they get a means of actually bypassing DR rather than slectively bypassing a few DR's late in the game.
At What level do you think the monk crosses over to sucking?
Honestly? it starts at level one for most. I mean you can build a monk that doesn't start to really struggle until you get to around 8th level if you really push a dex build and pay the feat-tax of Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse, but at that point your lower enhancement, attack bonus and damage output really start to kick in and bite. It's not insurmountable, but you really have to pull out every stop just to keep up - the only reward for pursuing every possible advantage is being mediocre.
Basically what problems you run into will depend on the monk you want to try and make. If you go for attack and damage (high strength) your AC will suffer from lack of either dex or wis.
If you go for defence with dex and wis, your AC will be good and your attack bonus not so bad if you pay the feat tax, but your damage output will suck and you will still be behind the other ocmbat classes in hitting if you focus on unarmed combat, even further behind them on damage if you use monk weapons.
On the whole, I have found that all other things being equal, the monk is behind by 1 to 3 to hit at first level, and it never gets better than that. The shorter you make the chances to hit, the worse AC or damage drops.
A part of me wants to give monks a full BAB. That does fit with the idea that monks have honed their own body to a deadly weapon, and I tend to find the 'situational full BAB' they have to be a touch confusing at best. A non-flurrying monk should still be darn effective at hitting someone in the face with his fist. On the other hand, I also acknowledge that they do have other focuses, at least conceptually, than combat, that it's also less than elegant to give them full BAB, but keep their d8 HD. Besides, I feel that, though a decent patch, it leaves some core problems unaddressed. So lets leave them at 3/4 BAB.
By my reading, a general principle for 3/4 BAB classes is that they have a way of personally boosting themselves in combat, increasing their performance to brush up against a full BAB class. Rogues and Ninjas have sneak attack, a damage spike which can be achieved with some regularity; Ninjas can also do things like turning themselves invisible. Bards have a wide variety of buffing spells, plus Bardic Performances. Magi can mix their attacks and spells together for considerable bursts of damage, and also have their pool of Arcane points, which can add enhancement bonuses to their weapon, and power a customizable list of special powers. Summoners have their Eidolons and spells. Clerics and Oracles are full casters, and Oracles have their Revelations.
Monks have their flurry, which can stand in opposition to their other class features, particularly fast movement,and has recently had its most powerful feature--the ability to TWF with a single weapon--retconned out of existence. As a booster, it doesn't particularly measure up. They do have Ki points, but compared to a Magus' arcane pool, it is considerably limited in its applications. They have full BAB for maneuvers, but maneuvers require a systemic change to be a truly useful character investment.
Some possibilities which occur to me for improving them then:
A particularly drastic change would be to give monks spells. Make them divine half-casters and load them up with personal buff spells; the Qingong archetype taken to a further extreme, and giving monks a role comparable to the Psychic Warrior.
Perhaps more elegant would be to expand options for the uses of ki points, and perhaps the amount the monk gets access to. In particular, a Magus-like ability to enhance the Monk's unarmed strike would seem appropriate. Perhaps a power to remove size limitations and modifiers for combat maneuvers. Call it 'Size Matters Not.' We can make these feats with ki pool as a prerequisite,or we can make the Qingong's 'pick from a menu of abilities every few levels' standard.
It becomes more viable for monks to focus on maneuvers with one or more systemic changes. Consolidate the feats back into one, scaling up in effect at BAB +6, and let monks use a full BAB to determine when that happens. Have the AoO triggered by combat maneuvers only happen if the combat maneuver fails. If a player can get together the CMB to successfully grapple a dragon--let him. For monks in particular, it'd also be nice if they could use their Wisdom for CMB.
Which is another big point: feats and abilities which increase the monk's ability to focus on Wisdom and Dexterity allow a monk who is statted thematically to be effective, as opposed to the current need for the monk to prioritize Strength.
I allow TWF to make two attacks as a standard action, and would tend to allow the same for flurries.
I'm also considering boosting monk's skill points up to 6+Int, especially since I have made 4+Int the minimum.
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It would take a rewrite of the class, but 3/4 BAB with a menu of abilities like the Qingong at every even level would be a decent class. Mechanically, that would put it in the same style as the Barbarian, Rogue and Ninja, so there is precedent for it.
Overall, I still favor giving them full BAB though. They get access to it for Full Attacks and Combat Maneuvers, which means they're only taking a penalty to Standard Attacks, which just seems silly. Combine it with the fact that they ignore a lot of pre-requisites for feats and it seems like a pointless hold-over.
In AD&D, their lower attack bonus made sense, because their damage actually was pretty high. But now a Fighter can surpass them with a single feat and barely any effort.
A bunch of combat maneuvers would provide balance, and would not require the major rewrite.
If I was allowed to re-do the monk, I would do it similar to Ninja and/or Rogue. I'd remove the still mind, tongue of sun and moon stuff, and make them talents, and add other talents to the bag.
I did a remake here, my idea was to give the monk as many options so as players could build the monk they wanted, not the monk someone decided they should have.
If I was allowed to re-do the monk, I would do it similar to Ninja and/or Rogue. I'd remove the still mind, tongue of sun and moon stuff, and make them talents, and add other talents to the bag.
More options than you can shake a stick at.
MA
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I saw a monk who took vow of poverty, fiery fists and fists of iron. At level 10, took sanctify ki strike and holy ki strike. When the monk was burning his stuning fist and hitting with everything all up, it was solid. Really rocking the opponents back hard. At level 10, taking on a CR 13 fey creature with DR 15/ cold iron and AC of 33? no problem, as long as the monk can close to melee distance and flurry. DR 15 and that AC isn't enough to stave of the palm strikes. Versus something like an ember guard whose DR is overcome, the damage per hit scales alot higher. It actually caused the player who was controlling the barb at one point to leave the game. Now that, was just a silly reaction. Different gamers, different gaming styles..........?
...or the fact that most of those features and feats are not in Pathfinder? The 3.5 Vow of Poverty was overpowered, and the feats: fiery fists, fists of iron, sanctify ki strike, holy ki strike, all aren't pathfinder feats. Only fiery fists has an equivelant in Pathfinder.
...or the fact that most of those features and feats are not in Pathfinder? The 3.5 Vow of Poverty was overpowered, and the feats: fiery fists, fists of iron, sanctify ki strike, holy ki strike, all aren't pathfinder feats. Only fiery fists has an equivelant in Pathfinder.
Well if they make a "weak" class stronger, it sounds like they are needed, and have a place.
Pathfinder took a bit of the fluff from 3.5 and abandoned a lot of it, but that fluff, where non cheesy, had a place. The sheer number of balanced and awesome specialist feats that are not in pathfinder make me sad when some pathfinder dms won't allow them. Now some solutions have come forward with archetypes but solutions were already in existence in the fluff. Enter the fluff!
Equalizer knows how to make a far nastier up close and personal monk, another way is the trip and grapple, where you lengthen out the combat to your monk's advantage, but don't kill quite so quickly.
This will no longer qualify them as a monk in any fashion, even as a suggestive idea.
However, monks having spells was already done in the 3.0 or early 3.5 days. There's a Dragon magazine article that goes into depth with your suggestion.
Psychic...most definitely not. :)
Some possibilities which occur to me for improving them then:
A particularly drastic change would be to give monks spells. Make them divine half-casters and load them up with personal buff spells; the Qingong archetype taken to a further extreme, and giving monks a role comparable to the Psychic Warrior.
This will no longer qualify them as a monk in any fashion, even as a suggestive idea.
However, monks having spells was already done in the 3.0 or early 3.5 days. There's a Dragon magazine article that goes into depth with your suggestion.
Psychic...most definitely not. :)
Some possibilities which occur to me for improving them then:
A particularly drastic change would be to give monks spells. Make them divine half-casters and load them up with personal buff spells; the Qingong archetype taken to a further extreme, and giving monks a role comparable to the Psychic Warrior.
He meant a 0-6 level progression like the Psychic Warrior. Sort of like a Bard or Magus-type progression designed around personal buff and utility spells, not damage or charms. Not literally a psionic class. At least that is how I read it.
MA
This will no longer qualify them as a monk in any fashion, even as a suggestive idea.
However, monks having spells was already done in the 3.0 or early 3.5 days. There's a Dragon magazine article that goes into depth with your suggestion.
Psychic...most definitely not. :)
Some possibilities which occur to me for improving them then:
A particularly drastic change would be to give monks spells. Make them divine half-casters and load them up with personal buff spells; the Qingong archetype taken to a further extreme, and giving monks a role comparable to the Psychic Warrior.
He meant a 0-6 level progression like the Psychic Warrior. Sort of like a Bard or Magus-type progression designed around personal buff and utility spells, not damage or charms. Not literally a psionic class. At least that is how I read it.
MA
Well, yes and no. That is what I meant, but I wasn't excluding psionics either, except insofar as they're not a core part of the game. If you are playing with psionics, that's a pretty perfect fit, in my opinion, since psionics is mystical power drawn from introspection and self-mastery. But in games without psionics, my suggestion is to make them divine casters, a 0-6 spell progression, with a spell list focused on self-buffing to improve their combat prowess.
It's definitely a very mechanically different monk, but no longer a monk at all? The monk's flavor is a mystical martial artist. How is a monk who prepares and casts Barkskin on himself before engaging the foe with his fists any less of that flavor than the Qingong monk who does the same thing, but by expending ki points instead of a spell slot?
Well, if you are looking for a different take on a monk, try my tattooed mystic.
Extremely customizable. I've ripped out everything in the class except the bare bones that make it a monk . . . and all their other powers come from magical tattoos. Sixty-six tattoos in all, spread across 6 levels of power. By 20th level, you get your pick of 20 of them . . . but once picked, you can't change.
Check it out . . . and there is link to the development/discussion thread there as well where it went through several revisions.
Best news? It's free. Use what you want.
MA
Wouldn't the fix to the monk be something small and simple rather than some rewrite of it all?
I mean something like:
Weapon: Simple
One handed* Handwraps *Monk. * Special
*Special:
These Handwraps take up the same "slot" as weapons would on a normal character while allowing the user to take advantage of any and all class abilities that one would use while unarmed. Using these prevent the use of any other natural attacks or manufactured weapon attacks. They are otherwise enchanted as a normal weapon. (singular.)
(the point being, hand wraps rather than actual weapons that would be enchanted as though they *were* weapons, including the ever monk-elusive Masterwork bonus.)
Now granted the wording could probably use work (its 2am, i'm tired, and not terribly good at writing Rule Book language anyway) but I'd think that would solve the issue of wanting to strike with any body part while allowing them the extra money to put towards stat boosters to be less mad as they leveled up while Also allowing them to remain effective as a melee guy.
Much cleaner than a class rewrite while allowing it to work for exactly one purpose: to make the monk work as written.
-S
...or the fact that most of those features and feats are not in Pathfinder? The 3.5 Vow of Poverty was overpowered, and the feats: fiery fists, fists of iron, sanctify ki strike, holy ki strike, all aren't pathfinder feats. Only fiery fists has an equivelant in Pathfinder.Well if they make a "weak" class stronger, it sounds like they are needed, and have a place.
Problem the monk has is NOT damage. The devs have stated they are not going to 'fix' the monk by increasing damage. The problem is hitting and overcoming DR.
The other problems with feats is they are not so much a fix if they are essential, they are a 'tax' on running that class, and the monk has enough of them as it is.
Pathfinder took a bit of the fluff from 3.5 and abandoned a lot of it, but that fluff, where non cheesy, had a place. The sheer number of balanced and awesome specialist feats that are not in pathfinder make me sad when some pathfinder dms won't allow them. Now some solutions have come forward with archetypes but solutions were already in existence in the fluff. Enter the fluff!
They don't need to be in Pathfinder, 3.5 never fixed the monk's fundamental problems with feats or not. Archetypes do not fix the monk, they just highlight how weak the core monk is.
Equalizer knows how to make a far nastier up close and personal monk, another way is the trip and grapple, where you lengthen out the combat to your monk's advantage, but don't kill quite so quickly.
I've seen the builds; the trip and grapple monk gets it harder than the monk just hitting things above 10th level; monks just hitting things aren't half as good as a fighter with many more weaknesses in toe-to-toe combat.
@ Selgard
The devs have made clear that they are not looking at an item fix, and no items will replace the amulet of mighty fists.
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I still haven't seen a good argument for why a Monk shouldn't have full BAB all the time. Consider the following:
Every class is one of three things; caster, combatant, or skill monkey, and the BAB decided for each class is relative to what role the class fills. It basically follows a simple pattern: Combatants get full BAB, Skill Monkeys get 3/4 BAB, Full Divine Casters get 3/4 BAB, and Full Arcane Casters get 1/2 BAB, with the "in-betweens" being decided upon on an individual basis, but usually (read as: always) getting 3/4 BAB. Let's go down the list, yeah?
- Alchemist - "In-Between" Class: 6th-level spell progression and strong self-buffs capped off with an unsituational offensive option that relies on touch attacking = 3/4 BAB.
- Barbarian - Full combatant = Full BAB. (Unusually low defense options grant an unusual HD bump.)
- Bard - "In-Between" Class: Skill Monkey and 6th-level spell progression = 3/4 BAB.
- Cavalier - Full combatant = Full BAB.
- Cleric - Full Divine Caster = 3/4 BAB.
- Druid - Full Divine Caster -and- situationally a Full Combatant with non-spell combat buffs (and a potential combat ally) = 3/4 BAB (This class is an oddball - It gets more than any other classes and at near-full strength to boot.)
- Fighter - Full Combatant = Full BAB.
- Gunslinger - Full Combatant = Full BAB.
- Inquisitor - "In-Between" Class: 6th-level spell progressions, skill-monkey, and self-buffing offensive combat options = 3/4 BAB.
- Magus - "In-between" Class: 6th-level spell progression and self-buffing offensive options = 3/4 BAB. (Essentially, this class is a more offensive and less skill-based version of the Bard.)
- Monk - Full Combatant = 3/4 BAB(???). (*See below.)
- Oracle - Full Divine Caster = 3/4 BAB.
- Paladin - Full Combatant (with a very small divine spell list) = Full BAB.
- Ranger - Full Combatant (with a very small divine spell list, and potentially a combat companion) = Full BAB. (The Combat version of the Druid, in that the class gets more than most at higher strengths. Not quite as ridiculous as the Druid, however.)
- Rogue - Skill Monkey = 3/4 BAB.
- Sorcerer - Full Arcane Caster = 1/2 BAB.
- Summoner - 6th-level spells with guaranteed combat companion(s) and SLAs = 3/4 BAB. (Honestly, IMO, this class should be at a 1/2 BAB considering it's features.)
- Witch - Full Arcane Caster = 1/2 BAB.
- Wizard - Full Arcane Caster = 1/2 BAB.
So, as we can see, the Monk is basically the opposite of the Barbarian. It trades mostly offense for mostly defense and because it's so defensive, it gets a HD penalty compared to other Full Combat classes (where the Barb gets a bump to make up for lack of defenses). But make no mistake, the Monk is no skill-monkey, and is no caster either. The only role it has left to fill is Full Combat, and it's the ONLY Full Combat class that does not receive Full BAB.
I still haven't seen a good argument for why a Monk shouldn't have full BAB all the time.
I think the original concept was as the monk as a spiritual philosopher-warrior, as much scholar and mystic as warrior. Given that, 3/4 BAB makes great sense as long as it is backed up with appropriate abilities that compensate in a combat class.
I agree that they would ideally be one thing or the other; my proposal would be to base the FoB as something other than TWF (but exclusive with it) and use 3/4 BAB but with something like fighter weapon training to take it up to close to full BAB with monk weapons and unarmed strikes.
Failing that, applying flurry BAB to monk weapons and unarmed strikes when NOT flurrying is perfectly fine by me.
Should monks be full BAB? If it's decided to make them all-out a combat class, then that would work, but it would not solve many of the monk's intrinsic problems - MAD, lack of enhancement, inability to penetrate DR.
I think the original concept was as the monk as a spiritual philosopher-warrior, as much scholar and mystic as warrior. Given that, 3/4 BAB makes great sense as long as it is backed up with appropriate abilities that compensate in a combat class.
You're likely right, but the problem with that argument (specifically as a reason for 3/4 BAB) doesn't hold much water, because "scholar/mystic" isn't a mechanical aspect of the class; It's all flavor.
So, mechanically speaking, a "mystical scholarly warrior" is a warrior with built-in flavor.Should monks be full BAB? If it's decided to make them all-out a combat class, then that would work, but it would not solve many of the monk's intrinsic problems - MAD, lack of enhancement, inability to penetrate DR.
It's true it doesn't solve many problems, but it does solve two - low mobility while attacking and a hard-to-explain difficulty grappling. And as a bonus, it fixes it without breaking anything else, since for the majority of the time, the Monk is using full BAB anyway.
As for all the other problems... Baby-steps ;)
Here are some of my ideas that i think would be balanced and small tweaks to monk to make it shine.
-Replace "AC Bonus"
"Ki Bonus"
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC, attack rolls, and CMD at 3rd level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 19th level.
-Reword "Flurry of Blows"
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus. Flurry of blows cannot be combined with Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
At 1st level a monk can make an additional attack using either an unarmed strike or a weapon with the monk special weapon feature while using flurry of blows.
At 6th level a monk can make two additional attacks using either an unarmed strike or a weapon with the monk special weapon feature while using flurry of blows.
At 11th level a monk can make three additional attacks using either an unarmed strike or a weapon with the monk special weapon feature while using flurry of blows.
At 16th level a monk can make four additional attacks using either an unarmed strike or a weapon with the monk special weapon feature while using flurry of blows.
A monk applies his strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, regardless of whether the weapon is wielded in one or two hands. A monk may substitute bull rush, disarm, reposition, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a weapon with the monk special feature as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
- Change Bonus Feat
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list:
Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list:
Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Reposition, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, and Mobility.
At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list:
Improved Critical, Medusa's Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack.
A monk need not have any of the prerequistes normally required for these feats to select them.
- Change Ki Pool
At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of Ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's Ki pool is equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his Ki pool, he can make a Ki strike.
By spending 1 point from his Ki pool, a monk can do one of the following:
- Make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack, or
-increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round, or
-give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
By spending 2 points from his Ki pool, a monk can do one of the following:
-Make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus when moving at least 10 feet during the round, or
-give himself a +2 bonus to attack rolls when making a flurry of blows attack.
Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his Ki pool as he gains levels.
- At 4th level, Ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with a character's monk level.
- At 8th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
- At 12th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
The Ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
- Change "Wholeness of Body"
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a swift action. He can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level + Wisdom modifier by using 2 points from his Ki pool.
- Change "Diamond Soul"
At 13th level, a monk can steady his soul against magic as a move action. He can gain spell resistance equal to his current monk level +10 for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier by using 2 points from his Ki pool. In order to affect the monk with a spell, , a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk's spell resistance.
@Neo2151
I don't think that full BAB fixes much except attack bonus when not flurrying. Monks already get full BAB for FoB and for maneuvers from Maneuver Training, after all.
{some ideas}
There are some nice gems in here: flurry of blows, wholeness of body, diamond soul. However I don't think there is much there that actually addresses the main issues: Lack of enhancement, MAD, and inability to bypass DR.
@Dabbler
Sorry, dunno where I got grappling from. It was 3/4 BAB to CMD that it fixes.
But like I said, it's a babystep in the right direction.
@Dabbler
Sorry, dunno where I got grappling from. It was 3/4 BAB to CMD that it fixes.
But like I said, it's a babystep in the right direction.
With the monk AC bonus to CMD, they are fine in that department as is, and if they really want to be on the ball, there's one feat that will fix it.
A bit late, but just for the record i do no tlike the idea to use Wis to attack, it would force basialy just one type of monks.
Why so? Wisdom to hit means the monk does not HAVE to invest in strength or dexterity. Nothing prevents the monk from investing in strength because they then get damage as well as to hit. Nothing prevents them from investing in dexterity to get higher AC and initiative (and Weapon Finesse is always an option).
Most monks will go for either strength or dexterity, plus wisdom. This idea means the monk does not have to take a feat tax if they want to go wisdom-heavy and skimp in either of the other two ability scores. It simply opens up more choices for the monk and allows them to be less MAD.
@Neo2151
I don't think that full BAB fixes much except attack bonus when not flurrying. Monks already get full BAB for FoB and for maneuvers from Maneuver Training, after all.
{some ideas}There are some nice gems in here: flurry of blows, wholeness of body, diamond soul. However I don't think there is much there that actually addresses the main issues: Lack of enhancement, MAD, and inability to bypass DR.
Well i don't think Monks are MAD.
As for enhancement and Bypassing DR; Ki Bonus adds to attack rolls and in Ki Pool they get lawful and adamantine earlier.
I still haven't seen a good argument for why a Monk shouldn't have full BAB all the time. Consider the following:
Every class is one of three things; caster, combatant, or skill monkey, and the BAB decided for each class is relative to what role the class fills. It basically follows a simple pattern: Combatants get full BAB, Skill Monkeys get 3/4 BAB, Full Divine Casters get 3/4 BAB, and Full Arcane Casters get 1/2 BAB, with the "in-betweens" being decided upon on an individual basis, but usually (read as: always) getting 3/4 BAB. Let's go down the list, yeah?
...
- Alchemist - "In-Between" Class: 6th-level spell progression and strong self-buffs capped off with an unsituational offensive option that relies on touch attacking = 3/4 BAB.
- Barbarian - Full combatant = Full BAB. (Unusually low defense options grant an unusual HD bump.)
- Bard - "In-Between" Class: Skill Monkey and 6th-level spell progression = 3/4 BAB.
- Cavalier - Full combatant = Full BAB.
- Cleric - Full Divine Caster = 3/4 BAB.
- Druid - Full Divine Caster -and- situationally a Full Combatant with non-spell combat buffs (and a potential combat ally) = 3/4 BAB (This class is an oddball - It gets more than any other classes and at near-full strength to boot.)
- Fighter - Full Combatant = Full BAB.
- Gunslinger - Full Combatant = Full BAB.
- Inquisitor - "In-Between" Class: 6th-level spell progressions, skill-monkey, and self-buffing offensive combat options = 3/4 BAB.
- Magus - "In-between" Class: 6th-level spell progression and self-buffing offensive options = 3/4 BAB. (Essentially, this class is a more offensive and less skill-based version of the Bard.)
- Monk - Full Combatant = 3/4 BAB(???). (*See below.)
- Oracle - Full Divine Caster = 3/4 BAB.
- Paladin - Full Combatant (with a very small divine spell list) = Full BAB.
- Ranger - Full
Every class is 1, 2, or all 3 things. The rest of your post suggests you realize that. A fighter who takes craft blacksmith will participate in magic weapon and armor crafting.
I like your suggestions overall. I plan to print it out and bring it to the table. Of course, evil monks will be a more credible threat too.
Well i don't think Monks are MAD.
They are widely agreed to be the MADest class around. A monk needs strength, constitution, dexterity and wisdom. If he wants to be a scout, intelligence too. He needs at least two of these scores to be good, and the others at least mediocre. If that isn't MAD, I don't know what is.
As for enhancement and Bypassing DR; Ki Bonus adds to attack rolls and in Ki Pool they get lawful and adamantine earlier.
What about silver, cold iron, good, evil, chaotic? These can only be bypassed with enhancement, and the monk lags far behind in that. Being able to bypass a select few (one common, the other two rare) forms of DR isn't much help at all (save the magic).
Fact is the monk's ability to bypass DR is way behind everyone else's, and this doesn't help that at all.
Even taht, wis wold be the primary stat of every monk.
Given that the monk's AC, Ki, and Stunning Fist all hinge off wisdom, it already is.
I would like to have a monk basend on str, other Based in Dex and other Bases in Wis. I would like they all to be diferent but all viable options.
But that's what this change would allow: different but viable options. Currently, the most viable combat monks are based off strength & wis (he misses out on AC, gains on damage). Dexterity & wis (gain in AC, lose in damage) is possible with a heavy feat-tax. If wisdom is available as the 'to hit' stat, then strength is as viable as it always was. Dexterity & wis the same, but now a monk that doesn't want to be a hulking muscle-man (not exactly the archetypical shaolin priest) can invest in Wisdom and be viable with either strength & wisdom, or dex & wisdom (my favourite) without a crippling feat-tax. The need for three major stats or else a heavy price in feats, vs two stats and no feat tax...it works to make the monk a lot less MAD.
They are widely agreed to be the MADest class around. A monk needs strength, constitution, dexterity and wisdom. If he wants to be a scout, intelligence too. He needs at least two of these scores to be good, and the others at least mediocre. If that isn't MAD, I don't know what is.
MAD is a red herring. There is no MADness. Each attribute gets you benefits.
If you favor just one or two attributes, you are reaping lots of benefits from that attribute but are losing out on the benefits from the other attributes.
Alternatively you distribute your attribute values more evenly, gaining lots of different but only medium benefits. That's just a matter of style. You don't lose anything. The sum of bonuses stays the same.
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MAD is a red herring. There is no MADness. Each attribute gets you benefits.
If you favor just one or two attributes, you are reaping lots of benefits from that attribute but are losing out on the benefits from the other attributes.
Alternatively you distribute your attribute values more evenly, gaining lots of different but only medium benefits. That's just a matter of style. You don't lose anything. The sum of bonuses stays the same.
I wish you were right, Liam, but in this case you are not. Several mediocre scores do not have the same effect as one good score - especially in the area we pinpoint the monk as being weakest in: Hitting the target.
If you plough points into dex and wisdom, sure you get more total bonus to AC than if you directed those points into one or the other. But you can't pool different stats into hitting, your modifier only ever comes from one and so it has to be lumped into either dexterity or strength, end of. Spread those points around, and you are then behind the curve in hitting your target, and there you stay.
For a combat class, you have to aim at one score to excel in, and that score determines your ability to hit. No excelling, less hitting. So what you have described in effect is exactly the MAD problem the monk faces: You need wis and dex for AC because you have no armour, and you need strength to hit and damage. You can drop strength on a feat tax and suck at damage but still hit, if you want to focus on just two stats. But wait, you can't lose out on con because you only have d8 hit dice.
You have too many demands to take a good score somewhere and be able to hit, unless you opt to suck at something else. That's the MAD problem right there.
Don't believe me? Show me a decent monk that can fight effectively with only mediocre scores.
Dabbler, what if we changed the paradigm? Bear with me here, this is just the kernel of an idea.
What if we make Liam's Theorem correct with the monk? Have monks add their Dex modifier to their Str modifier for a cumulative bonus on attack rolls? And add their Wis modifer to their Str modifier for a cumulative bonus on damage rolls?
That would allow for a balanced approach monk, that can still compete with SAD classes (Fighter, Barbarian, etc.) that boost their Strength into the stratosphere, would it not?
One downside is that once you start piling on the enhancement bonuses to ability scores, though, you might well outshine any other class. I am not sure this is the way to go, but I thought I might mention it.
MA
Dabbler, what if we changed the paradigm? Bear with me here, this is just the kernel of an idea.
What if we make Liam's Theorem correct with the monk? Have monks add their Dex modifier to their Str modifier for a cumulative bonus on attack rolls? And add their Wis modifer to their Str modifier for a cumulative bonus on damage rolls?
That would allow for a balanced approach monk, that can still compete with SAD classes (Fighter, Barbarian, etc.) that boost their Strength into the stratosphere, would it not?
One downside is that once you start piling on the enhancement bonuses to ability scores, though, you might well outshine any other class. I am not sure this is the way to go, but I thought I might mention it.
MA
This has come up in other forms in other discussions for other classes. I think you would outshine other classes - a belt of physical power +6 then nets you +6 to hit instead of +3. If we make it Wisdom to add to strength to hit then it's even worse, because two separate stat-boosters are cheaper than one single one.
Taking my monk Feriah as an example, with 23 dex (she has a +2 belt) and 14 str she'd have +8 to hit, which is a lot from stats at 10th level - even with a starting 20 (and +2 from levels) and a +2 belt, another class would have a maximum of +7. I want the monk to match the other classes in hitting, not exceed them.
It's tempting, but at high levels where you have a lot of stat boosters I think it would get broken.
to show a creature that might work, courtesy of a lack of balance between templates...
Orc
+4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma:
add advanced racial template
+8 strength, +4 dex, +4 con, +2 wis, +2 int, +2 chr
now add young template
+4 str, +8dex, +2 all mental
throw in the racial ability that dumps light sensitivity and you just might have something
P.S. Reminder technically this build has NO lvl adjustment, yeah he is small but there still some notable benefits.
wait i am pretty sure AoMF can apply the agile property so instead...
garuda blood aasimar +2 dex/wis
add above combo template
+10 dex, +6wis, +4 chr/int
now this lower die might get you early but just start with weapon finesse at first level, through a couple of points in str/con (mostly con) then when get your AoMf and agile property procede to kill everything. i do want to let everyone know i am not being very serious with these, i just had a caffeine fueled brainstorm and wanted to share.
i dont seriously expect any GM would EVER allow this.
If no one will ever allow it, why post it?
just wanted to point out a way, albeit way ridiculous, to make a monk work within the given rules. of course the point mostly was taking an ability score (dex) out of the equation by raising it high enough. slap this on a dex build unarmed fighter and something a good deal more ridiculous than even that. mostly though it was just a random thought about viable monks i wanted to share.