Archivist Bard Archetype


Rules Questions


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The Bard Archivist Archetype has some serious ambiguity, and I'm hoping for some Paizo/developer interpretation of what was intended/what will be errata'd.

The way I understand archetypes, is that they replace/change all class features all at once, not as the character gains levels. This means you can't have a class feature get changed once, and then removed at a latter level, since it was already removed when the archetype was selected.

So, going with that assumption, how does the Archivist archetype work?

At 2nd level, the archivist archetype replaces versatile performance with Lore Master (Ex). This has been clarified by the author to mean that the original Lore Master ability is modified, not changed.

At 5th level, the Lore Master ability is replaced by a new Jack-of-all-Trades feature identical to the one the bard normally gets at 10th level. Since the Lore Master ability was not replaced, but changed, this means that the archetype is attempting to both modify and replace the same class feature. If it isn't, then that means that the author's clarification is in error, and the Lore Master Ability is a replacement of the old one. Extra text would be needed to ensure that the new Lore Master ability functions in the way it was intended, as the current text does not appear to do that.

For further confusion, but it doesn't appear to be causing any problems, a the old Jack-of-all-Trades class feature is replaced by Probable Path.


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As I understand it, the "Lore Master" and "Jack of all Traits" you gain aren't the "Lore Master" and "Jack of all Traits" you lose. They're just called the same; whoever thought that was a good idea should be spoken to quite sternly!


What good luck, I was just looking this class up on the SRD last night. Regarding Lore Master, I suggest you and your GM take a look at this post before using the Archivist.


Going with the assumption that the Lore Master ability is a replacement, this means that the ability loses some of what the normal lore master ability can do. This appears to go against the author's design decisions, and so should be clarified/errata'd.


I was also curious when looking at this archetype as to whether the replacement of versatile performance means you never get versatile performance of if it just means you don't get to pick one at level 2. Any ideas?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Caedwyr wrote:

The Bard Archivist Archetype has some serious ambiguity, and I'm hoping for some Paizo/developer interpretation of what was intended/what will be errata'd.

The way I understand archetypes, is that they replace/change all class features all at once, not as the character gains levels. This means you can't have a class feature get changed once, and then removed at a latter level, since it was already removed when the archetype was selected.

So, going with that assumption, how does the Archivist archetype work?

At 2nd level, the archivist archetype replaces versatile performance with Lore Master (Ex). This has been clarified by the author to mean that the original Lore Master ability is modified, not changed.

At 5th level, the Lore Master ability is replaced by a new Jack-of-all-Trades feature identical to the one the bard normally gets at 10th level. Since the Lore Master ability was not replaced, but changed, this means that the archetype is attempting to both modify and replace the same class feature. If it isn't, then that means that the author's clarification is in error, and the Lore Master Ability is a replacement of the old one. Extra text would be needed to ensure that the new Lore Master ability functions in the way it was intended, as the current text does not appear to do that.

For further confusion, but it doesn't appear to be causing any problems, a the old Jack-of-all-Trades class feature is replaced by Probable Path.

Archetypes replace features/abilities from the Core (or Base) class, not the Archetype itself. So when it says "Replaces Lore Master (Ex)" that is replacing the Lore Master ability of the Core Bard class (gained at level 5, increased at 10, etc). Not that it replaces the Lore Master ability of the Archivist gained at 2nd level.

Bard
2 - Versatile Performance
5 - Lore Master
10 - Jack-of-all-Trades

Archivist
2 - Lore Master
5 - Jack-of-all-Trades
10 - Probable Path

(note that these abilities upgrade/increase at further levels)


That's how things normally work, but apparently not with the Archivist if we go with the author intent (hence my question).


Caedwyr wrote:
That's how things normally work, but apparently not with the Archivist if we go with the author intent (hence my question).

The author's intent was that the Lore Master ability gained by the Archivist is that it may take 20 on Knowledge checks once per day, plus once per six levels beyond 2nd and "retains all other aspects of the Lore Master ability" (taking 10 on all Knowledge checks he has ranks in). The text under Lore Master for Archivist only has the Take 20 part (and doesn't state that it is a Standard Action).

The Archivist basically gives up Versatile Performance (and all its upgrades) to get Lore Master and Jack-of-all-Trades earlier, and a new ability called Probable Path (and changes a couple specific Bardic Performances)

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