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I am confused why this is a problem.
Last time I checked, there were usually (I daresay over 95% of the time) other party members to help him fly, or to somehow bring the flying beastie down, or do something in order to help him.
Or, you know, big magic bows. It might not be optimized to use a bow if you are a fighter who hasn't spent about 500 feats to be an archer, but you can still do it, and typically far better than most other 3/4 BAB classes.
I *KNOW* this will come as a heresy, and I will get flamed big time for it...but...here goes:
NOT EVERY CLASS NEEDS TO DO EVERYTHING PERFECTLY AND BE BEST AT EVERYTHING.
omgwtfwwjd?!?
I don't always make blanket "you are playing the game wrong" statements, but when I do, I piss everyone off.
Flame on my friends, flame on.
Improved Eldritch Heritage? Harpoon or grappling hook and pulling them down?
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But a class should be able to do what their very NAME suggests they do without depending on others and wasting the other party member's actions. Especially when multiple other classes can do it on their own without wasting someone's actions and throwing away money (Barbarian has dragon totem, Synthesist has overland flight or flight evolution, Magus has Force Hook Charge/Dimension Door+Spell Combat with Feather Fall prepared).
So fighters should be able to fly as a class ability?
Wow.
Like Bomanz said, use a bow, fight it that way.
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One of the fighter's strengths is that they are very versatile in combat.
They can be good with a two-handed greatsword and with bows. And Two-handed don't need anything other than Power Attack to be awesome. Archery is a bit more feat-intensive, but fighters can do well with a feat or 2, depending on how much they want to focus on it.
I don't have a problem with fighters not flying, as long as they are capable of dealing with flying enemies. And bows can do that.
I have other issues with the Fighter class, though. Notably, their complete lack of options outside of combat and rather boring gameplay ("I full attack. Again... And Again... And Again..."). Some archetypes can help with that, but not many, and not much.
The fact that PF requires an insane amount of feats to do anything different doesn't help, and usually turns fighters into a 1 (maybe 2) trick pony.
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Duexhero it really does not matter if the class can do it on its own, as long as it can happen in the game. The fact that I had to buy a scroll for the wizard to use, use UMD, buy or craft an item is irrelevant. At the end of the day results are what matters.
As an example I can use the eldritch heritage feats to take the orc bloodline, and make a bard into a much better melee combatant than he is otherwise.
Are the bodies piling up? If so the party will be happy.
Not being good at making a creature hate life once you get into melee with it is not the same as, the other creature being good at keep-away, which is what flyer often do.
In short NPC A having wings, does not diminish the amount of trouble he will be in once he is reached, and as it has been repeatedly shown he can be reached.
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But a class should be able to do what their very NAME suggests they do without depending on others and wasting the other party member's actions. Especially when multiple other classes can do it on their own without wasting someone's actions and throwing away money (Barbarian has dragon totem, Synthesist has overland flight or flight evolution, Magus has Force Hook Charge/Dimension Door+Spell Combat with Feather Fall prepared).
Look! Over there! It's the point you missed!
Quickly now! Follow it, so you don't miss it again!
Fighters still fight. Even flying opponents! Its true, I swear it!
A whole bunch of other idea's just landed on your head, in this thread and in the other, and you still sputter and point and rage in your wroth!
Besides....let me ask the question one more time....
Why do they have to do everything at all times and be the exact same as every other character?? WHY? When has it EVER been like this EVER in the history of the game EVER NEVER EVER???
Forever ever?
Forever ever.
Yeah. Never.
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Also, as a side note, I am confused as to why all your combats apparently happen on a 1000km X 1000km stage, and not in a dungeon or tomb or other place with chokepoints and small low ceilings.
ZOMG! The Monster-of-Evil-Stabby-Doom-and-Hurtings can FLY! ZOMG!! Wait! The ceiling in yonder dungeon is only 20 feet high!
O well. NVM.
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Lasso, Net, Tanglefoot Bag, ,Reach Weapon, Ranged Weapon, Aid Another, Ready Action, Potion of Fly, RUN AWAY!, ect.
Sooooo many things you can do at ANY level even against flying or otherwise tricky foes.
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^^^ If more than half of the monsters in the game past CR8 can fly? Honestly? Yes. At that point "pure mundane melee fighter" is an incredibly stupid concept to attempt to adhere to at that level and the system should simply stop trying to pretend it is a real thing.
"Use a bow" doesn't make you able to do anything effectively with the bow. If your fighter has 14 dex, a +1 bow and is level 10, he isn't hitting a CR 10 on average (AC24 says the monster building guidelines). He also has to spend an action to draw the bow. If you invest signicant feats, stats and money into bow use, at that point you aren't a melee fighter.
^^ He can get both by level 11 with 3 feats. Also: Yes, he is pretty boned if the enemy is flying.
^ Again, Bow does something, but not anywhere near what justifies you existing.
It is not true that half of the monsters past CR 8 can fly. You are also assuming every enemy is pulled directly from the books.
On both accounts you are incorrect. Now as you get higher up in level flight is more common for the bad guys, but it is also easier to get access to. Your UMD goes up, and you get more money, among other things. If I am a fighter in your group, and I am flying around on a broom would you really care that I don't have an SLA or spell that got me there or would be happy I am distracting whatever it is that would be targeting you instead?
Here is what I am seeing.
Me:My ID card(class ability allowing me to fly) is nowhere to be found. I think I will go to bank B(various other methods to fly). They don't check for ID.
DeuxHero:No you can't cash the million dollar check at Bank B(the rule that checks for ID as mentioned above), you must go to Bank A. You also can not use anyone else's bank account(getting a party member to help me out). That is not acceptable
Me:The payout is the same(a dead enemy is a dead enemy). Am I going to be any less rich? Would you rather me not cash the million dollar check? I mean you will be getting some of the money(killing the bad guys will help the party).
DeuxHero:It's just not the same.
PS:Is this a problem you have seen in an actual game DH? I ask because I have ran several AP's and this has never been an issue. I have also ran several real life games, and it has always been a non-issue. I have also sat in on other games, still not an issue. Theorycrafting is nice, and all, but if it does not produce the same results as an actual game then it really does not matter.
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Why do they have to do everything at all times and be the exact same as every other character?? WHY? When has it EVER been like this EVER in the history of the game EVER NEVER EVER???If they had abilities OTHER than fight, that would be one thing, but again: A fighter needs to blow resources do the thing in his name and the class has little support for doing anything else
Being useless at the ONE thing you are supposed to do without a baby sitter is really, REALLY pathetic.
15% of any characters wealth is supposed to go to disposable items like potions and wands and scrolls. This is for every character even the almighty <insert fav. class here>.
Blowing resorces is a part of the game.
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Being useless at the ONE thing you are supposed to do without a baby sitter is really, REALLY pathetic.
I think you just want to win an argument. There are various ways to achieve flight. You just keep trying to dismiss them. Standard action, WBL-mancy, UMD not a class skill, leadership might not be allowed, blah blah blah.....
You have yet to show why it won't be affective in a real game though.
At best you can say its a playstyle issue. You don't like to spend money or to bypass limitations, but we don't mind.
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Why do they have to do everything at all times and be the exact same as every other character?? WHY? When has it EVER been like this EVER in the history of the game EVER NEVER EVER???If they had abilities OTHER than fight, that would be one thing, but again: A fighter needs to blow resources do the thing in his name and the class has little support for doing anything else
Being useless at the ONE thing you are supposed to do without a baby sitter is really, REALLY pathetic.
The problem is, as we have pointed out, he is not useless and can still fight. Fighting does not just mean melee. Fighting includes ranged combat. Fighters are capable of being really good in melee while still being very strong with a bow. And they can switch between them as a free action with Quick Draw.
And again, if a barbarian goes beast totem for pounce instead of dragon totem . . . he is now useless? After all, he can only have one totem Rage Power line. Clearly no melee barbarians should ever get pounce. It makes them suck.
Here's the thing: Of the various melee classes ONLY the Fighter, Monk and Cavlier have this problem. A Barbarian gets flight by getting angry, a Magus can teleport on top of someone (causing extra damage) and full attack, a synthesist can just fly to the enemy. A fighter has to sit there, drink nearly the cost of a small house, wait 6 seconds and THEN attack.
Monk gets abundent step, cavalier can ride a winged summon, hell a fighter can ride a winged creature or if your like us you get your derek to throw him.
There is always a solution or an alternative. Always. And if I'm wrong then run away (Tactically Retreat) and come back when you find one.
Blowing resorces is a part of the game. Suggested, not required. Consumables used in every other fight are expected to be cheeper than half the money you make for winning (I seriously can't stress how big a waste a potion of fly is at CR10, let alone earlier) while consumables in general are kept for emergencies (those scrolls of cure disease for when you get a disease.)
Actually if you NEED said potion of flying at a given moment..its not actually a waste, is it? Just like the scrolls of cure disease are useless, if you have a dedicated healer..until that healer is gone/dead/ etc..
By your logic..Paladin..Rogue..Ranger..Cavalier..Monk..all barbarians that don't take a specific ability..a great many Clerics and Oracles..all are useless bc they can't fly.And yet the game has gone on without them flying. Generally by items, arcane casters lending them a spell, or the classic ranged weapon. Sure the wizard/magi/alchemist/whatever may be able to fly up to the monster all by themselves..but just how well will they do without the ranged support? They rapidly become falling hunks of bloody meat. Thats why they use fly on the fighter and cast at range..or better yet..don't, and let the people with bows plink at range and make the monster come to them, while the melee classes get ready to swat the heck out of it when it flies by.
^ And as I pointed out, that false. You not only can't hit jack with a bow more than half the time when dabbling in archery (AC 24 vs +10+2+1), you STILL blow an action getting the bow (move isn't as big, but it's noticble) you are trying to say that your solution to being a bad melee fighter is to stop trying to be a mlee fighter
Of the various melee classes: most of them do not have this problem! A Barbarian can fly by getting angry, a Magus can teleport on top of someone (causing extra damage) and full attack, a synthesist can just fly to the enemy. A fighter has to sit there, drink nearly the cost of a small house, wait 6 seconds and THEN attack.
Here is my huge issue, deuxhero, with all your logic. You are dismissing the entirely valid idea of a Fighter being good with a bow while still rocking in melee, as they certainly have enough feats to do so without taxing themselves, and yet your Barbarian example relies specifically on one totem line of Rage Powers. Heck, my level 4 Dwarven sword and board fighter has +8 to ranged attacks without spending anything for archery. If a level 10 fighter spending any effort on archery at all can't beat +13 . . . wow.
You can't argue "Fighters suck because they can't do this automatically while barbarians can choose to gain this ability by using this specific build". Also, stop saying the barbarian can get wings and pounce. They can't, since both are totem powers and unless something changed, only one totem line is allowed.
EDIT: Also, for pulling out a bow costing a move action. Quick Draw makes it free. A very useful feat for any fighter who is concerned about having to switch weapons.
No, it's "while you were going to bank b, the check expired, also you spent half a million in gas getting there"
The million dollars was getting access to flight. :)
You also keep overestimating the cost of flight for someone that wants it.
The barbarian spends his class abilities(rage powers) to fly. The fighter takes crafting feats, and not only can he fly he can improve himself in various other ways, and the party. He still has enough feats to take UMD(fly, overland flight), or get the caster to cast it for him once he buys the scroll. I am not suggesting he buy a scroll every day however. You do keep them around for the times when you know you will be in combat.
It should also be noted that the barbarian's method of flight is expensive with regard to rage rounds. Using your barbarian from the other thread he only has 25 rounds of rage per day, and that is counting his raging constitution score.
Raging cost 1 round of rage. Flying as an immediate action cost 2 rounds. It also cost 2 rounds for every round the barbarian is flying.
Assuming the fight last 3 rounds that is 7 round of rage a fight. If the fight last 4 round then it is 9 rounds of rage per fight. The barbarian will not make it to the end of the 4th fight, maybe not even the 3rd.
I think that barbarian better invest in another source of flight also*, and if the final fight is a boss fight.......
The fighter however will make it to the fourth fight, and to the end of the boss fight using magic items even if he only uses the winged boots and celestial armor. If he uses other methods also he has more than enough flight time to last all day.
*I would like to think that blowing through rage rounds would not happen in an actual game so the barbarian running out of rage rounds, much a like a fighter not being able to fly will not happen in an actual game.
Cavalier explicitly can't get a winged summon, abundent step is crap (but admittedly it exists)
The problem with retreating is, again, you are the ONLY person in the group with a problem.
Beast rider archetype or buy one. yes you can buy them. yes abundant step is crap.
Fighters have this problem before any adventure, so find one of the many ways to fix it.
Every class has problems: Monk is Monk, Rouge cant sneak attack SH**, Animal Companions love to die, Wizards are squishy, Clerics waste half their time healing, the list goes on.
Flying enemys are challenging the game is supposed to be challenging. If it werent then it wouldn't be worth playing now would it?
A quick Swicht Hitter.
...
Thank you for doing what I was about to do. :)
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snipYeah, but he only needs it for one fight a day at worst, and if he is good, he can get one of the encounters done in 2 rounds and free himself of that worry.
If its for only one fight per day..what is the big deal? Let the other classes shine then and the fighter can get a few hits with the bow. A minute ago it was sounding like every fight was vs flying foes...
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If one class could do everything and anything then there wouldn't really be a need for other classes. As the game progresses defeating appropriate CR monsters requires more and better cooperation between the classes. That after CR 8 half the monsters can fly only says to me that martial classes will have to work more closely with the arcane classes than before not that there is something intrinsically wrong with classes that focus on melee.
snipYeah, but he only needs it for one fight a day at worst, and if he is good, he can get one of the encounters done in 2 rounds and free himself of that worry.
He still needs it. I am sure if the fighter only need it for one fight a day you would not be letting up.
PS:Is this an actual problem at your table. In short are fighters or barbarians that dont that the wings unable to effectively contribute?
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Paying for something like... 7 and a half years of Nanny service still strikes me as needing a nanny. You also spent a round (one third to one fourth of the fight) while every other class would have spent it contributing instead of making up for their own short comings.Potions of fly, argument over.^^Pick 4 random, untemplated, CR10s.
^ But Fighter can't do the thing it's supposed to do without a nanny. That's VERY different from "not being able to do everything". You might say it's "not being able to do anything".
Casting fly takes a round, too.
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^^Pick 4 random, untemplated, CR10s.
^ But Fighter can't do the thing it's supposed to do without a nanny. That's VERY different from "not being able to do everything". You might say it's "not being able to do anything".
UMD, craft feats or just buy magic items, leadership all disagree with you. <---If your argument is that the fighter depends on other classes then you can stop arguing now.
I don't know why you keep saying the fighter can't do it. Then when I show it can you resort to excuses.
I think we have officially taken care of DH's "can't" arguement.
He will next bring magic item dependency to the table. <--Magic items exist to help you do things you could not do otherwise.
craft feat--but the fighter is using feats to make things<---That is good everyone, not just the fighter. Since he is making the party better I don't see this as a weakness.
UMD-fighters don't normally have UMD as a class skill or a high charisma <----Well then make it a class skill through traits and/or take skill focus if you don't want to invest in charisma. There is a difference between what a class is expected to do, and what it can do if people concentrate on it.
All DH has left for an argument is that he wants the fighter to have a self-contained(class feature) solution. Well there is not much we can do about that. Not having a self-contained solution is far from being able to solve the problem at all.