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Monk by the Numbers


Advice

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ossian666 wrote:
Daniel Waugh wrote:
Wow, 196 posts and I see only one actual monk build. I'm right and your wrong posts don't prove anything. Show me builds that not only compare to hit and damage but out of combat skills and combat manuevers and there affect on the GAME. If you take damage from traps, ambushes you didn't see or because you couldn't sneak past a group of mooks are you really better.
Jeez someone ate their Jerky-O's this morning. Should have switched to Shredded Literacy.

ROFL!!!!!!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
gniht wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

The difference does drop the DPR quite a lot. There's another thread around about powering up the rogue, and that ha ideas for giving the rogue bonuses to hit under certain circumstances.

Many of the suggested monk fixes include methods of increasing the monk's chances to hit.

right, any bonus for either class would have to basically be situational. you especially couldn't give monk full base attack i think. i know people love monks, but if i was writing a system i'd probably lump fighters and monks into the same class with different archetype options. hell, i'd probably try to make the system entirely class-less. but... i suppose then it would have no class :p

Monks effectively have full BAB already, they just cannot use it for single strikes, and it hasn't made a lot of difference. As for situational bonus, I disagree. Giving ki-strike a scaling enhancement bonus to hit is my preferred solution - it doesn't give the monk anything another class doesn't get elsewhere, but it does allow it at the same levels that others get it rather than late and severely capped.

gniht wrote:
but seriously... they're both fighting classes, who both (conceptually) spend a lot of time training.

The difference being the monk is more spiritually trained rather than just physically trained.

gniht wrote:
i'm sure something like this has probably been suggested... but providing monks with a couple of different flurry options (one with a boosted attack value that has a penalty to ac or so?) could be an answer.

Flurry is only part of the issue monks face. Once again this leaves the monk trying to deliver a single focussed strike out in the cold.

gniht wrote:
also, the base monk should really be more similar to the zen archer archetype i think. almost every class has a single attribute that stands out as the most important. that's simply not true with the base monk, and is a big part of the problem i think...

I agree with this. Adding Wisdom bonus to hit, or providing Weapon Finesse equivelant, with monk weapons/unarmed strikes is one of the best ideas that have been come up with. I disagree with adding it to damage, though. If the monk gets a means of getting through DR, then he's past the worst hurdle damage-wise.

gniht wrote:
the base monk should probably get the option of either using str, dex, or wis for their attack bonus and rogues should probably get weapon finesse as a bonus feat (on top of what they currently have). rogues should probably also get some kind of improved flanking bonus to hit. (archery rogue would still need something as well)

In the rogue thread Master Arminas started, it came down to more and better rogue talents. Getting one at first level means the rogue can actually hit at 1st level without paying a feat-tax.


For christ's sake, who cares abotu pvp anyway? This is a team game. Monk succeeds or fails based on his contribution to the team.


There is no PvP going on. This thread is about comparing the benefits of having a Monk in a party, vs having a different class. Does the Monk really bring anything to a party that another class can't equally bring as well? Or is he completely over-shadowed by other classes? Also, is it easier for a new player to build a class other than Monk, or is it easier to build a Monk?

Grand Lodge

Okay, so I'm a visual learner and decided I'd put the data in an excel spreadsheet so I could move it around (e.g. sort by DPR, rounds to kill Genero, etc).

This can be found here.

Of note, the strength based monk does pretty well when it comes to DPR. He always wins against Genero (as long as he can beat DR*), along with Barbar and Ranger. By 16th the Ranger needs to have a full (read +8) favored enemy bonus to keep up. Now, I'm sure one or two folks will cry foul, or question the numbers, or demand a recount. So, I'll be rechecking the numbers just to make sure I'm not smoking some high grade product.

For those wondering about the Maneuver monk, he does well keeping up with his two maneuvers. I picked Trip because it plays off of combat expertise and I'd rather dump Strength than Int (could use the skill point), and Grapple because it plays off of Improved Unarmed Strike. The monk would do better using Strength (at 9) and Charisma (at 7) as dump stats to start with a 16 Dex and 18 Wis. However, I don't see too many new players immediately striking on the idea of dumping two stats (especially not Strength), so I didn't set that as the base build. The build is here for those interested. Just compare that CMB to the CMD's found in the Monster by CR page or to Genero's CMD's in Monk by the Numbers document to get an idea how the altered maneuver monk will do.

Now, I've gotta get to class. Enjoy!

Grand Lodge

I've updated the Maneuver Monk that I built separately from the Monk by the numbers doc. The first build pushes Wisdom in an attempt to pump up the Stunning Fist. I even threw in the Jawbreaker feat chain to capitalize on a higher Stun DC. Thing is that DC still isn't reaching great heights as compared to Genero's Fort save. It is better than the more middle of the road Wis/Dex build I put together for the test. Also, the Wisdom focused Monk falls down on CMB, so he's less likely to get his maneuvers off if the enemy is particularly hard to hit CMD wise or the monk strays outside of trip and grapple.

I also built a Dex focused Maneuver Monk. He does much better in the to hit department (Weapon Finesse, though I still need to run the DPR. I'll add it to the DPR table),CMB (Agile Maneuvers ftw), and initiative, while staying up with the other builds (Dex/Wis and pure Wis) for AC and CMD as the numbers don't change too drastically.

Both the Dex and Wis based monks are tighter on money than the Wis/Dex monk, because they squeeze in two stat items where the Wis/Dex monk raises one state with level bumps and a weaker item, while raising the other stat with a stronger item. I feel the Dex/Wis monk is more inline with what folks think of when they think "the monk is MAD", and they're tossing in some way of raising Strength and possibly Constitution into the mix for more hit/damage and hp's. The Dex-focused, Wis-focused, and Str-focused monks do much better in their departments (maneuvers, stunning, and hit/damage respectively) than the more traditional Dex/Wis/Str/Con monk.

As I said above, I still have to run the DPR numbers for the Dex-focused and Wis-focused monks, however, I suspect the Dex monk will do better than either the Wis-focused or Dex/Wis monks. We'll see.

Well, enough break time. Back to studying!


Iiiiinteresting. You may want to incorporate how DR impacts the DPS. I'd do DR 0/-- and DR 5/-- at level 6, DR 5/-- and DR 10/-- at level 11, as well as DR 10/-- and DR 15/-- at level 16, simply because they'll cite that as a reason the monk can do well.

I'm not sure if the scope of your analysis applies only to unarmed Monks, but the Monk deals much more damage dual-wielding Masterwork Temple Swords even into level 6.

Grand Lodge

SoulGambit0 wrote:

Iiiiinteresting. You may want to incorporate how DR impacts the DPS. I'd do DR 0/-- and DR 5/-- at level 6, DR 5/-- and DR 10/-- at level 11, as well as DR 10/-- and DR 15/-- at level 16, simply because they'll cite that as a reason the monk can do well.

I'm not sure if the scope of your analysis applies only to unarmed Monks, but the Monk deals much more damage dual-wielding Masterwork Temple Swords even into level 6.

I limited myself to CRB only. I figured the CRB was the only book you could guarantee that a group, particularly a new group, would have. CRB was the only book that would most likely not need DM approval. At least the CRB wouldn't need approval beyond a DM's house rules ("I don't like monks, so no monks. Or elves." kind of situation). Since the Temple Sword is APG material, I didn't look at it.

Equally, I felt that the issue was about the core mechanics of the Monk class. Other sources for feats, equipment, etc, would only mask the mechanical issue. Archetypes have been created that appear to "shore up" the mechanical issues the monk suffers from. Equally, there is the feeling the monk needs to make use of his choices (feats, magic items, skills) in order to equal another class without out those choices. A monk has to take a feat to equal the baseline. The other classes take feats to rise above the baseline. So my question was "what is the baseline?"

Now, some of my "generic" monsters have DR, though not DR/-. I was not in this to optimize, assuming most players wouldn't know how to optimize on their own. With that said, I went with the highest +X weapon I could afford without sacrificing other items (especially AC) or violating the 1/3 rule (no one item may be more than 1/3 total wealth by level). So the higher we go, the more likely a PC is to defeat all DR except DR/- with their +X weapon. The more efficient use is to get a +1 weapon with loads of special abilities and then have the wizard or cleric cast Greater Magic Weapon to get the highest bonus they can. It won't beat DR, but then it will deal a lot of energy damage that ignores DR.

One of the things I'll have to figure out now that I have base DPR numbers, is how to show the effect of DR on DPR. Since DPR is based on average damage over a round, how does DR lower that? In some cases, I noted the character used an appropriate material to defeat DR. Equally, two of the creatures have DR/good. A little Bless Weapon action and you're all good, be it wand, scroll, oil or the like.

I'll also point out that I'm not sure there are enough monsters with DR/- to make that a good metric. Sure DR can hose a PC's DPR; however, there are ways around most forms of DR. If the PC has the gold and is smart, they'll have DR beating weapons. Of course, there is no functional difference between DR/- and a fighter facing DR/bludgeoning with nothing but piercing weapons. You just are not getting through without some help from your friends. This test assumes the help of a party. As long as material is covered somehow (silver weapons, +3 weapons, etc), align weapon can be cast (and is assumed to be an available spell in some form (scroll, wand, etc). So it just comes down to have the right damage types.

Another problem I have is figuring out how to show the issue of standard actions and surprise rounds. Who gets the jump on whom? Who has to move to the enemy to get the first swing, and give the enemy a full attack? The DPR tables shows the base number of rounds it would take to full attack and kill the other guy. However, this will be slightly different as you figure there is some moving to flank, moving to contact, and the like. How this will affect the total DPR of a combat is beyond me. Fortunately, many of these Rounds to dead are fractional. The fraction may be more or less than a standard attack, but they should be close enough to demonstrate:
Round 1) move to enemy, standard attack
Round 2) full
Round 3) full
Round 4) he's dead Jim

The statistic of Does Genero Win (Y/N) came from comparing the number of rounds it would take the PC to kill Genero versus the number of rounds for Genero to Kill the PC. Whoever had the lower number won, even if it was just a matter of .01. Granted that is based off of average rolls. Genero could have hot dice and the PC have cursed dice and the outcome would be different. For averages, this should work. Of course, I altered the layout so that folks could see the data clearly when they followed the link. Now each level is split between the PC's DPR and Genero's DPR, and that finale metric is no longer a calculation.


You are not putting the levels in the chart so I am having a harder time figuring things out. That ranger also has overrun which could have been traded out for double slice, and Two Weapon Rend brings more DPR than GTWF. I am looking at the level 11 ranger currently.

My ranger posted upthread gave up some DPR to be better with a bow, but until now I had not ran the DPR numbers.

CR 11 has an AC of 25
---------------------------------------
Manuevers/Defensive Monk 11:
Monk Melee: +3 Unarmed +16 (1d10+4), Flurry +3 Unarmed +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 (1d10+4)

Str 12, Dex 20 (+2 level +4 belt), Con 12, Int 13, Wis 18 (14 + 2 race +2 head), Cha 8

DPR:14.25

Your ranger which I am assuming is level 13 with 145 hp only has 94ish DR at level 13.
-------------------------------------------
Link to the ranger
+1 Keen Kukri +15/+10 (1d4+6/15-20/x2) and
. . +1 Keen Scimitar +16/+11/+6 (1d6+6/15-20/x2)

No favored bonus =28.88
flank with animal companion = 37

AC DPR=5.46
AC with flank=6.83

DPR 33.3 to 43.8
--------------------------------------
favored enemy bonus

+2
DPR=43.2
flank with animal companion 52.34

AC DPR=7.88
AC with flank=9.45

DPR 50.1 to 61.79
--------------------------------------------

+4=59.99
flank with animal companion 69.55

AC DPR=10.71
AC with flank= 12.5

DPR 70.7 to 82.05
-------------------------------------------
+6=78.39
flank with animal companion 87.75

AC DPR=13.97
AC with flank=15.96

DPR 82.36 to 103.71
--------------------------------------------------------

edit:A fighter using sword and board should be doing more than 34ish DPR at level 13 also.

edit2:I just found the build for the large monk. Before I do the maths I will say that 1d10 goes up to 2d8, not 3d8.

I am assuming you looked at the weapon chart in the equipment chapter and saw this:

2d8 1d10 3d8

That 2d8 to the left is for medium sized creatures. The 1d10 is for tiny creatures. The 3d8 is for large creatures.

The correct line follows.
Medium Tiny Large
1d10 1d6 2d8

With that out of the way: level 11 large offensive monk
Melee: +2 Unarmed +18 (3d8+10), +15 (3d8+16) with Power Attack
Flurry +2 Unarmed +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (3d8+10), +16/+16/+11/+11/+6 (3d8+16)
Ranged: Shruiken +8 (1d3+8), Flurry +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 (1d3+8)
==================================================
Str 26 (16 + 2 race + 2 lvl + 4 belt +2 size), Dex 12 (14 -2 size), Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16 (14 +2 head), Cha 8
BAB +8, CMB +20, CMD 35 (+4 CMB to bull rush and grapple, +4 CMD against bull rush and grapple)

+11 BAB for flurry
+8 strength mod
+2 AoMF
-1 size penalty
-2 FoB penalty

The flurry should be at +18 not +19

I have a DPR of 49.88
With his attacks doing 2d8+10 his average damage will be 19 per hit, and even if every attack hits he would only do 95 points of damage. Well that does not include crits, but that still makes me think the 102.45 you came up with is incorrect since I would most likely have to assume that every attack did hit, and for crits to even push him into the 100 DPR range. The monks from the DPR Olympics at level 10 certainly were not going to hit 100, even 60 DPR using the core book alone. I don't think a 40 point increase in damage is going to happen over 1 level.

Sczarni

Bestiary 1 has plenty of critters with DR in it...

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
You are not putting the levels in the chart so I am having a harder time figuring things out. That ranger also has overrun which could have been traded out for double slice, and Two Weapon Rend brings more DPR than GTWF. I am looking at the level 11 ranger currently.

The chart is in Excel. The levels are the tabs at the bottom. Unfortunately, Google Docs has altered this from an excel spreadsheet to the print preview version. The pages should be 1st Level PC DPR, 1st Level Genero DPR, 6th Level PC DPR, 6th Level Genero DPR, 11th Level PC DPR, 11th Level Genero DPR, 16th Level PC DPR and 16th Level Genero DPR. I'll go back over the document and see if I can't make it show a header or something.

Quote:
CR 11 has an AC of 25

This should be the case for 11th level Genero.

Quote:

+1 Keen Kukri +15/+10 (1d4+6/15-20/x2) and

. . +1 Keen Scimitar +16/+11/+6 (1d6+6/15-20/x2)

No favored bonus =28.88
flank with animal companion = 37

AC DPR=5.46
AC with flank=6.83

DPR 33.3 to 43.8
--------------------------------------
favored enemy bonus

+2
DPR=43.2
flank with animal companion 52.34

AC DPR=7.88
AC with flank=9.45

DPR 50.1 to 61.79
--------------------------------------------

+4=59.99
flank with animal companion 69.55

AC DPR=10.71
AC with flank= 12.5

DPR 70.7 to 82.05
-------------------------------------------
+6=78.39
flank with animal companion 87.75

AC DPR=13.97
AC with flank=15.96

DPR 82.36 to 103.71
--------------------------------------------------------

And I totally forgot to factor in the animal companion. This does change things somewhat. The ranger getting both a flanking bonus to his attacks, and "extra" attacks (aka the animal companion's set of attacks) definitely ups his DPR. Of course, the ranger wasn't really hurting. It just means at higher levels, he is far less reliant on his favored enemy bonus to up his DPR.

Quote:
edit:A fighter using sword and board should be doing more than 34ish DPR at level 13 also.
Quote:

edit2:I just found the build for the large monk. Before I do the maths I will say that 1d10 goes up to 2d8, not 3d8.

I am assuming you looked at the weapon chart in the equipment chapter and saw this:

2d8 1d10 3d8

That 2d8 to the left is for medium sized creatures. The 1d10 is for tiny creatures. The 3d8 is for large creatures.

The correct line follows.
Medium Tiny Large
1d10 1d6 2d8

No, this is a large monk wearing a monk's robe. So he is 2d8 for level 16 and then 3d8 for being a large "16th level" monk (or an 11th level monk in a monk's robe). Real damage multiplier that robe.

Quote:

With that out of the way: level 11 large offensive monk

Melee: +2 Unarmed +18 (3d8+10), +15 (3d8+16) with Power Attack
Flurry +2 Unarmed +19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (3d8+10), +16/+16/+11/+11/+6 (3d8+16)
Ranged: Shruiken +8 (1d3+8), Flurry +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 (1d3+8)
==================================================
Str 26 (16 + 2 race + 2 lvl + 4 belt +2 size), Dex 12 (14 -2 size), Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16 (14 +2 head), Cha 8
BAB +8, CMB +20, CMD 35 (+4 CMB to bull rush and grapple, +4 CMD against bull rush and grapple)

+11 BAB for flurry
+8 strength mod
+2 AoMF
-1 size penalty
-2 FoB penalty

The flurry should be at +18 not +19

Thanks for the catch. I added on the large after the fact and forgot to add in the negative to hit. So I get 88.30 as a DPR including crits.

Quote:

I have a DPR of 49.88

With his attacks doing 2d8+10 his average damage will be 19 per hit, and even if every attack hits he would only do 95 points of damage. Well that does not include crits, but that still makes me think the 102.45 you came up with is incorrect since I would most likely have to assume that every attack did hit, and for crits to even push him into the 100 DPR range. The monks from the DPR Olympics at level 10 certainly were not going to hit 100, even 60 DPR using the core book alone. I don't think a 40 point increase in damage is going to happen over 1 level.


I don't think another D8 is going to give you another 39 points of DPR.
The extra D8 assuming all the attacks hit push you up to around 120, but since all of those attack are not hitting. It does push you up to 61.69.

Look at it another way. You now average about 24.5 if you hit before crits come into play.

Your chances to hit are .7, .7, .45, .45 ,.2
24.5 x .7=17.15

24.5 x .7=17.15

24.5 x .45=11.025

24.5 x .45=11.025

24.5 x .2=4.9

DPR=61.25(not including a chance for crits.)
Even with crits factored in I don't see it jumping up 20 points.

We may need a 3rd person if we are this far apart on the numbers.

Grand Lodge

Here is the DPR calculation I have for my sword and board fighter at 11th level against an AC 25 (for CR 11).

With the fighter having:
+11 BAB
+3 Str Mod
+3 Longsword (1d8 19-20)
+1 Bashing heavy shield (1d8, 20)
+2 Weapon training with heavy blades
+1 Weapon training with close weapons
-2 Two weapon fighting
Improved two weapon fighting so base 9/9/4/4/-1. Total should be. +17/+14/+12/+9/+7. So I've goofed here as well. Power attack should then be -3 to hit for a +6 to damage. So that should be
14/11/9/6/4. Damage should be 1d8+3 (str) + 6 (power attack) +3 (magic weapon) +2 weapon training or 1d8 +3 (str) +6 power attack + 1 magic + 1 weapon training. So 1d8 + 14 / 1d8 + 11

Fighter (sword and board) 11:
===============================================
11th Level Human Fighter
==================================================
Init +5; Perception +17
Hp: 92 (10 + (6 x 10) + 22 Con)
AC: 29, touch 14, flat 25 (+4 Dex +5 Shield +10 Armor)
Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +7
==================================================
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft., 3/day, 5 min/flight
Melee: +3 Longsword +19 (1d8+8); +16 (1d8+14) with Power attack
Two-weapon: +3 longsword/+1 bashing heavy mithril shield bash +17/+14/+12/+9/+7 (1d8+8/1d8+5)
+14/+11/+9/+6/+4 (1d8+14/1d8+11) with power attack
Ranged: +1 composite longbow (Str +3) +17/+12/+7 (1d8+4)
==================================================
Str 16, Dex 21 (13 + 2 race +2 level +4 belt), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
BAB +11, CMB +14, CMD 29
Traits – Season to taste.
Feats –
Human – Power Attack
1st – Two-Weapon fighting
Fighter 1 – Improved Shield Bash
Fighter 2 – Weapon Focus (longsword)
3rd – Double Slice
Fighter 4 – Weapon Specialization (longsword)
4th – Stat bump (Dex)
5th – Shield Focus
Fighter 6 –Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7th – Shield Slam
Fighter 8 – Greater Weapon Focus (longsword)
8th – Stat bump (Dex)
9th – Greater Shield Focus
Fighter 10 – Iron Will
11th – Shield Master

Special Abilities: Bravery +3, armor training 3, weapon training (heavy blades, close) 2

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:

I don't think another D8 is going to give you another 39 points of DPR.

The extra D8 assuming all the attacks hit push you up to around 120, but since all of those attack are not hitting. It does push you up to 61.69.

Look at it another way. You now average about 24.5 if you hit before crits come into play.

Your chances to hit are .7, .7, .45, .45 ,.2
24.5 x .7=17.15

24.5 x .7=17.15

24.5 x .45=11.025

24.5 x .45=11.025

24.5 x .2=4.9

DPR=61.25(not including a chance for crits.)
Even with crits factored in I don't see it jumping up 20 points.

We may need a 3rd person if we are this far apart on the numbers.

The DPR calculator also factors in the effect of Medusa's Wrath, which is taken by the monk as the Level 10 bonus feat, as well as factoring in for crits. Here are my numbers.


Raniel Kavilion wrote:

Here is the DPR calculation I have for my sword and board fighter at 11th level against an AC 25 (for CR 11).

With the fighter having:
+11 BAB
+3 Str Mod
+3 Longsword (1d8 19-20)
+1 Bashing heavy shield (1d8, 20)
+2 Weapon training with heavy blades
+1 Weapon training with close weapons
-2 Two weapon fighting
Improved two weapon fighting so base 9/9/4/4/-1. Total should be. +17/+14/+12/+9/+7. So I've goofed here as well. Power attack should then be -3 to hit for a +6 to damage. So that should be
14/11/9/6/4. Damage should be 1d8+3 (str) + 6 (power attack) +3 (magic weapon) +2 weapon training or 1d8 +3 (str) +6 power attack + 1 magic + 1 weapon training. So 1d8 + 14 / 1d8 + 11

Fighter (sword and board) 11:
===============================================
11th Level Human Fighter
==================================================
Init +5; Perception +17
Hp: 92 (10 + (6 x 10) + 22 Con)
AC: 29, touch 14, flat 25 (+4 Dex +5 Shield +10 Armor)
Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +7
==================================================
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft., 3/day, 5 min/flight
Melee: +3 Longsword +19 (1d8+8); +16 (1d8+14) with Power attack
Two-weapon: +3 longsword/+1 bashing heavy mithril shield bash +17/+14/+12/+9/+7 (1d8+8/1d8+5)
+14/+11/+9/+6/+4 (1d8+14/1d8+11) with power attack
Ranged: +1 composite longbow (Str +3) +17/+12/+7 (1d8+4)
==================================================
Str 16, Dex 21 (13 + 2 race +2 level +4 belt), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
BAB +11, CMB +14, CMD 29
Traits – Season to taste.
Feats –
Human – Power Attack
1st – Two-Weapon fighting
Fighter 1 – Improved Shield Bash
Fighter 2 – Weapon Focus (longsword)
3rd – Double Slice
Fighter 4 – Weapon Specialization (longsword)
4th – Stat bump (Dex)
5th – Shield Focus
Fighter 6 –Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7th – Shield Slam
Fighter 8 – Greater Weapon Focus (longsword)
8th – Stat bump (Dex)
9th – Greater Shield Focus
Fighter 10 –...

When TWF'ing you only get your dex up as high as you need to take the feats you need, then you put everything into strength. The fighter should go no higher than a 17 dex for ITWF. If he wants to go for GTWF he can, but that can wait until later. By putting those point of dex into strength he ups his to-hit and damage.

Grand Lodge

lantzkev wrote:
Bestiary 1 has plenty of critters with DR in it...

Yes it does. And it has plenty of CR 6 criters to use a single critter against an APL 6 party, and CR 11 for 11, and so on. And at each level, I created a generic monster that was based off the most common critter features. And IIRC, from 6 on up, my "Genero" has had DR. He just hasn't had DR/-. And besides the issue is how to alter the DPR calculations to take into account DR you can't beat short of doing lots of damage. I know it isn't a straight -X per swing from the DPR, because not all swings will land and not all swings will do average or lower damage. Some hits will actually be crits and do loads of damage. But how does DR alter the DPR equation. Haven't a clue.

As luck would have it, at 11 and 16, just about 100% of the folks had a way around DR, either with a +3 weapon, the align weapon spell (these PC's are part of a party with a wizard AND a cleric), or the right material. After all, the DR has tended to be /good, /good or cold iron, or just /cold iron. So no real worries there. Yes there is no difference between DR/- and DR/cold iron when you don't have a +3 weapon OR a cold iron weapon. But my guys were either all effected, or were all not affected. Though I'll have to go back and double check that statement to be 100% sure.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
When TWF'ing you only get your dex up as high as you need to take the feats you need, then you put everything into strength. The fighter should go no higher than a 17 dex for ITWF. If he wants to go for GTWF he can, but that can wait until later. By putting those point of dex into strength he ups his to-hit and damage.

True. I was torn on how to get that and get the feats early enough to be competitive. I went with a high strength early, while having the ability to get to 17 with stat items followed by level bumps. So for a few levels, the fighter risks loosing his feat to a dispel magic.

But, how much do you sacrifice Strength at character creation to get Dex as close to 17 as possible? Do you accept that you loose half you attacks to a well timed dispel magic that takes out your Belt of Dex? The is higher in dex than necessary because I wasn't sure where to draw that line. I guess I could drop Strength in the beginning, and the use all my level bumps and stat boost items to get strength back up as I level. That should do the trick.

Say
Str 15 Dex 17 (15 + 2 race) Con 14 Int 13 Wis 12 Cha 7

or maybe
Str 14 Dex 17 (15 +2 race) Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 7

Depending on what you prefer, being able to qualify for Combat Expertise (more AC and Imp/Greater Trip) or a higher will save.

Then go Strength all the way with level bumps and stat boost items.

Edit: I also considered Weapon Finesse since I was so focused on Dex, but wasn't sure where to fit it in or what to bump till later.

Edit 2: Also you'd need 19 Dex for Greater Two-weapon fighting. I guess you could leave off the third iterative attack. It does have a low chance to hit. Still low is better than no, and the monk is getting it for free. Late, at 15 rather than 11th, but still free.


Raniel Kavilion wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

I don't think another D8 is going to give you another 39 points of DPR.

The extra D8 assuming all the attacks hit push you up to around 120, but since all of those attack are not hitting. It does push you up to 61.69.

Look at it another way. You now average about 24.5 if you hit before crits come into play.

Your chances to hit are .7, .7, .45, .45 ,.2
24.5 x .7=17.15

24.5 x .7=17.15

24.5 x .45=11.025

24.5 x .45=11.025

24.5 x .2=4.9

DPR=61.25(not including a chance for crits.)
Even with crits factored in I don't see it jumping up 20 points.

We may need a 3rd person if we are this far apart on the numbers.

The DPR calculator also factors in the effect of Medusa's Wrath, which is taken by the monk as the Level 10 bonus feat, as well as factoring in for crits. Here are my numbers.

I did not account for Medusa's Wrath, but the person has to have a certain condition for it work. The DC is 18. A good save for a CR 11 monster is +14(20%) and a poor save is a +10(40%) chance

So those extra to attacks should go like this.
24.5 x .7=17.15
17.15x.2(chance of the monster being stunned) x2=Another 6.86 DPR=68ish
17.15x.4(chance of the monster being stunned)x2=Another 13.92 DPR=67ish DPR

When I look at the code it said this [IF(AND(B11,(E2>9)),(2*K8)))]
K8 is the first attack being used again if Medusa's Wrath was selected, but the program does not account for the chance of failure. If you choose it the program assumes that the feat always works(the person is stunned etc...), but for an accurate number you should account for the chance of success. In short on a round where Medusa's wrath is active you should average that number, but since that feat will not always be in play you must account for that also.


Well, the Fighter can take Weapon Finesse early on, and retrain that into a different feat once his Strength is higher than dex.

The other option is to have Str 17 Dex 15 and bump it twice as he levels up instead.


Raniel Kavilion wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
When TWF'ing you only get your dex up as high as you need to take the feats you need, then you put everything into strength. The fighter should go no higher than a 17 dex for ITWF. If he wants to go for GTWF he can, but that can wait until later. By putting those point of dex into strength he ups his to-hit and damage.

True. I was torn on how to get that and get the feats early enough to be competitive. I went with a high strength early, while having the ability to get to 17 with stat items followed by level bumps. So for a few levels, the fighter risks loosing his feat to a dispel magic.

But, how much do you sacrifice Strength at character creation to get Dex as close to 17 as possible? Do you accept that you loose half you attacks to a well timed dispel magic that takes out your Belt of Dex? The is higher in dex than necessary because I wasn't sure where to draw that line. I guess I could drop Strength in the beginning, and the use all my level bumps and stat boost items to get strength back up as I level. That should do the trick.

Say
Str 15 Dex 17 (15 + 2 race) Con 14 Int 13 Wis 12 Cha 7

or maybe
Str 14 Dex 17 (15 +2 race) Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 7

Depending on what you prefer, being able to qualify for Combat Expertise (more AC and Imp/Greater Trip) or a higher will save.

Then go Strength all the way with level bumps and stat boost items.

Edit: I also considered Weapon Finesse since I was so focused on Dex, but wasn't sure where to fit it in or what to bump till later.

A dispel magic can take out any item so I never account for it mostly because it does not happen in most games. No point in worrying about corner cases, and if every caster is going for a certain item he is probably metagaming since he has no way to know what that belt knows in most situations. Why not dispel the sword or your boots, or your cloak of protection, or the wizard's stuff since he will most likely cause more trouble than a fighter anyway.

I highly dislike combat expertise, and it does not have a good standing on the boards anyway, unless your GM uses mostly humanoid monsters so your combat maneuvers have a chance to work. I would go for the higher save.

Grand Lodge

Tels wrote:

Well, the Fighter can take Weapon Finesse early on, and retrain that into a different feat once his Strength is higher than dex.

The other option is to have Str 17 Dex 15 and bump it twice as he levels up instead.

Yeah, I was figuring on changing it to the 15 Str 17 Dex, going str all the way on level bumps. I guess I'll leave out the Greater Two-weapon fighting. And truth be told, I forgot about retraining, but then it would only be important where I was going Dex all the way like the original build.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:

A dispel magic can take out any item so I never account for it mostly because it does not happen in most games. No point in worrying about corner cases, and if every caster is going for a certain item he is probably metagaming since he has no way to know what that belt knows in most situations. Why not dispel the sword or your boots, or your cloak of protection, or the wizard's stuff since he will most likely cause more trouble than a fighter anyway.

I highly dislike combat expertise, and it does not have a good standing on the boards anyway, unless your GM uses mostly humanoid monsters so your combat maneuvers have a chance to work. I would go for the higher save.

Point. I mostly went with the Combat Maneuver so there was a comparison with the Dex/Wis monk who was supposed to be good at maneuvers and stunning fist because he wasn't good at hitting (or something like that, it is too late and I've had too little sleep to remember the argument correctly). The other factor I counted on was having something decent to do with a standard attack. This is why so many of my builds has vital strike. The problem being what do you do when you've only got the one action. Swing away and vital strike. Now you're close enough, go to town with a full attack.

Combat expertise came to me as a possible way into Greater Trip. Of course, four+ legged creatures and huge+ monsters (unless you were large) would be tough/undoable. But I've mostly seen humanoid monsters in play, especially organized play. But the utility of maneuvers is really situationally dependent.

Edit: now off to bed. Get to sleep in tomorrow, Yay! Have to take care of sick kid tomorrow. Booo (at least that she is sick poor dear, not that I have to take care of her).

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:

I did not account for Medusa's Wrath, but the person has to have a certain condition for it work. The DC is 18. A good save for a CR 11 monster is +14(20%) and a poor save is a +10(40%) chance

So those extra to attacks should go like this.
24.5 x .7=17.15
17.15x.2(chance of the monster being stunned) x2=Another 6.86 DPR=68ish
17.15x.4(chance of the monster being stunned)x2=Another 13.92 DPR=67ish DPR

When I look at the code it said this [IF(AND(B11,(E2>9)),(2*K8)))]
K8 is the first attack being used again if Medusa's Wrath was selected, but the program does not account for the chance of failure. If you choose it the program assumes that the feat always works(the person is stunned etc...), but for an accurate number you should account for the chance of success. In short on a round where Medusa's wrath is active you should average that number, but since that feat will not always be in play you must account for that also.

Thanks for this. This seems a more reasonable DPR. Now if you could tell me how to figure on DR/-, I'd really appreciate it.

Now bed. Really. No more interwebs.


Raniel Kavilion wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

I did not account for Medusa's Wrath, but the person has to have a certain condition for it work. The DC is 18. A good save for a CR 11 monster is +14(20%) and a poor save is a +10(40%) chance

So those extra to attacks should go like this.
24.5 x .7=17.15
17.15x.2(chance of the monster being stunned) x2=Another 6.86 DPR=68ish
17.15x.4(chance of the monster being stunned)x2=Another 13.92 DPR=67ish DPR

When I look at the code it said this [IF(AND(B11,(E2>9)),(2*K8)))]
K8 is the first attack being used again if Medusa's Wrath was selected, but the program does not account for the chance of failure. If you choose it the program assumes that the feat always works(the person is stunned etc...), but for an accurate number you should account for the chance of success. In short on a round where Medusa's wrath is active you should average that number, but since that feat will not always be in play you must account for that also.

Thanks for this. This seems a more reasonable DPR. Now if you could tell me how to figure on DR/-, I'd really appreciate it.

Now bed. Really. No more interwebs.

I am assuming you are using TeJon's DPR calculator. On the right side you will see "Global+damage". To the right of that there will be a blank space(column J). Put the DR that you can not overcome in the area. As an example, if the DR is DR5/Evil, and you can not bypass it, or DR 5/- then put a "5" there, and it will calculator for that DR for you.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
I am assuming you are using TeJon's DPR calculator. On the right side you will see "Global+damage". To the right of that there will be a blank space(column J). Put the DR that you can not overcome in the area. As an example, if the DR is DR5/Evil, and you can not bypass it, or DR 5/- then put a "5" there, and it will calculator for that DR for you.

Yeah, I'm using Tejon's DPR calculator. I don't see a Global+damage, but I may be using a different version.

Edit: I see the problem. I had an older version. I found the version you're referring to above. But uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?


Raniel Kavilion wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I am assuming you are using TeJon's DPR calculator. On the right side you will see "Global+damage". To the right of that there will be a blank space(column J). Put the DR that you can not overcome in the area. As an example, if the DR is DR5/Evil, and you can not bypass it, or DR 5/- then put a "5" there, and it will calculator for that DR for you.

Yeah, I'm using Tejon's DPR calculator. I don't see a Global+damage, but I may be using a different version.

Edit: I see the problem. I had an older version. I found the version you're referring to above. But uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?

Yeah the first version has errors which were pointed out to him. The second version still does not account for the chance of medusa's wrath to fail. I might try to add that in later this week. My excel-fu is not great, but I am not too bad at it. If I can get it to work I will let you know.

I am fine by the way.

edit:I just realized today is Friday. I will get back to you in a few days about Medusa's Wrath.


DR X/-- was suggested to generically represent "What happens if the PC doesn't bypass the DR." The formula that incorporates DR is SUM(X)*(Y-Z)+C*SUM(X)*Y where X is the % chance for each hit, Y is Damage, Z is the DR, and C is the crit-chance.

Medusa's Wrath, assuming you do it off Stunning Fist, goes like this: +X1*A*((X1+X2)*(Y-Z)+C*(X1+X2)*Y), where A is the chance for the creature to fail the save (number after the letter is means to imply subscript, which this forum does not support). Additionally, you have to factoring the %chance of the debuff to AC from Stunning Fist as well. Monk damage calcs can very easily require page-long formula... :/

As an aside, does your formula factor in spending Ki for the extra attack no?


Raniel Kavilion wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I am assuming you are using TeJon's DPR calculator. On the right side you will see "Global+damage". To the right of that there will be a blank space(column J). Put the DR that you can not overcome in the area. As an example, if the DR is DR5/Evil, and you can not bypass it, or DR 5/- then put a "5" there, and it will calculator for that DR for you.

Yeah, I'm using Tejon's DPR calculator. I don't see a Global+damage, but I may be using a different version.

Edit: I see the problem. I had an older version. I found the version you're referring to above. But uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?

*hopes he didn't just shoot his computer*


SoulGambit0 wrote:

DR X/-- was suggested to generically represent "What happens if the PC doesn't bypass the DR." The formula that incorporates DR is SUM(X)*(Y-Z)+C*SUM(X)*Y where X is the % chance for each hit, Y is Damage, Z is the DR, and C is the crit-chance.

Medusa's Wrath, assuming you do it off Stunning Fist, goes like this: +X1*A*((X1+X2)*(Y-Z)+C*(X1+X2)*Y), where A is the chance for the creature to fail the save (number after the letter is means to imply subscript, which this forum does not support). Additionally, you have to factoring the %chance of the debuff to AC from Stunning Fist as well. Monk damage calcs can very easily require page-long formula... :/

As an aside, does your formula factor in spending Ki for the extra attack no?

No I was not going to track Ki. I figured I would have enough trouble just adding the Medusa's Wrath to the calculater. Because of the way the program is done getting things like I want may be difficult. As an example I added Furious Focus to another version, and I could get the accurate number for a standard attack or for a full round attack, but never both at the same time.

Grand Lodge

SoulGambit0 wrote:

DR X/-- was suggested to generically represent "What happens if the PC doesn't bypass the DR." The formula that incorporates DR is SUM(X)*(Y-Z)+C*SUM(X)*Y where X is the % chance for each hit, Y is Damage, Z is the DR, and C is the crit-chance.

Medusa's Wrath, assuming you do it off Stunning Fist, goes like this: +X1*A*((X1+X2)*(Y-Z)+C*(X1+X2)*Y), where A is the chance for the creature to fail the save (number after the letter is means to imply subscript, which this forum does not support). Additionally, you have to factoring the %chance of the debuff to AC from Stunning Fist as well. Monk damage calcs can very easily require page-long formula... :/

As an aside, does your formula factor in spending Ki for the extra attack no?

No, right now it isn't my formula. My excel-fu is not strong. I've borrowed tejon's dpr calculator v2.03. So I've just left out the Medusa's Wrath until someone with better skills can figure out how to alter the calculator with the new and improved medusa's wrath calculator.

Now, what I did do was calculate DPR for the classes with DR as a universal negative to damage. So there are now two rows for each PC, one with DR and one without, to show them overcoming DR. It took some time, but I figure that makes the numbers more balanced. If the PC cannot penetrate DR, I've shown that as a flat 0 DPR and taking 100 rounds to defeat Genero. If they automatically overcome DR, say because they have a +3 or higher weapon, then that is the only line I've shown.

Grand Lodge

Trogdar wrote:
Raniel Kavilion wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I am assuming you are using TeJon's DPR calculator. On the right side you will see "Global+damage". To the right of that there will be a blank space(column J). Put the DR that you can not overcome in the area. As an example, if the DR is DR5/Evil, and you can not bypass it, or DR 5/- then put a "5" there, and it will calculator for that DR for you.

Yeah, I'm using Tejon's DPR calculator. I don't see a Global+damage, but I may be using a different version.

Edit: I see the problem. I had an older version. I found the version you're referring to above. But uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?

*hopes he didn't just shoot his computer*

Naw, I like this conversation.

Grand Lodge

SoulGambit0 wrote:
As an aside, does your formula factor in spending Ki for the extra attack no?

Well, yes and no. The calculator does put out the numbers for gaining an extra attack. This could be from anything, ki point, haste, speed weapon, and boots of speed, just to name a few. Just add the value on to the existing DPR to find out what happens when you get one more attack.

The test assumes an iconic group of four (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue). This configuration means there will be haste on the table, since the idea is to have the fighter and the fifth PC be the main attackers, with the cleric and rogue backing up. The wizard would be buffing and dropping fireballs (or whatever is appropriate). So the question comes down to who that fifth player is going to be. So, haste is expected and I've included the number for adding an extra attack. The monk just happens to be able to get it on his own with ki.

I also included the ki pool points in the Monk by the Numbers document. it is under special abilities. I generally factor ki usage as:
5 rounds per combat
Rd 1 Ki point for extra move to get to the fight
Rd 2 - 4 Ki point for extra attack
Rd 5 ki point as needed (extra AC, Attack, move)
4 combats per day = 20 ki points
1 ki point for Ki pool (eg. magic, lawful, adamantine)
So, need a total of 21 Ki
By 16th should have:
8 (1/2 level)
5 - 6 (Wisdom mod, could be higher)
2 (Extra Ki Feat)
15 - 16 total (or 3 of 4 fights). You could skip what appears to be the mook fight to save Ki points. You could also hold back one or two rounds each fight to see if you need the ki to win. But in the end by 16th you should be using your ki at least 3 out of the five rounds. I'd suggest the first three rounds of flurrying. This should shorten the fight.

Grand Lodge

Alright, I've updated the DPR table using tejon's DPR calculator 2.03. I've also included the DR for the monsters. DR starts to show up at 6th. It was DR 10 in each case. I might, if you ask real nice, research about what level DR 15 shows up and include that on the appropriate table, as well as include DR 5 on the 6 and 11 tables.

Where it was relevant, I've included the line for the PC beating DR and failing to beat DR. For instance, the Offensive Monk has an Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 Holy that allows him to beat the DR 10/good that Genero has. I've also included lines like Power Attack/No Power Attack, as the higher CR AC has a thin margin for allowing a PC to drop -5 on the to hit, even if it brings a +10 to damage.

Any questions?

Oh, and here are the Monk by the Numbers doc, and the Dex based monk doc.


The first monster I found with the Rakshasa at CR 8. Piercing and Good.
The Iron Golem has DR Admantine at CR 13
Next was at CR 14 was a crag linnorm with DR 15/cold iron.

Balors and Pit Fiends have it at CR 20

Some of the other monsters have it too in Bestiary 2 and 3, but it seems most of them have DR 10 even at the higher CR's. The one's that have 15 are a case by case basis, and unlike DR 10 don't start at a certain CR and then give to almost every monster from that point forward.


The level 11 monk's DPR is still to high, and the ranger can get up to 103ish. That 11th level TWF fighter's DPR is still to low. That 34ish DPR is something that can be done in the single digit levels. By level 13 he should be pushing higher numbers. If his job is to deal damage and he is only pushing 34 DPR at level 11 he is failing. I would expect for the rogue to do better and rogues even with all their SA dice don't outdamage fighters. After my attempt to implement Medusa's Wrath in the DPR calculator, which won't be until tomorrow I might try my hand at a fighter classed sword and board TWF'er.

PS:I am aware that you might not have had the time to fix the numbers. This is mostly a reminder, and source of info for anyone that skipped posts. :)


Ok, so I haven't looked at the numbers in a while until now, and I have to say, the fighters numbers are awful. You almost couldn't build a worse fighter if that was your intention to do so. Having Strength, Dexterity and Constitution all roughly the same number is a horrible decision when it comes to designing a character. The fighters you built are hands down some of the worse character builds I've ever seen.

I'm not trying to be mean, but you're trying to compare builds and you've got one guy pumping strength through the rough, while everyone else is holding back in the builds.

I'm looking at your DPR numbers and I can't help but think there is something very wrong when the Monk is doing almost double the damage of every other class you built. Then I look at the numbers for the classes, and I see why. You've got a fairly powerful Monk build, but horrible builds for the other classes.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a Wizard buffed himself could out fight some of the classes you've built.

Grand Lodge

Tels wrote:

Ok, so I haven't looked at the numbers in a while until now, and I have to say, the fighters numbers are awful. You almost couldn't build a worse fighter if that was your intention to do so. Having Strength, Dexterity and Constitution all roughly the same number is a horrible decision when it comes to designing a character. The fighters you built are hands down some of the worse character builds I've ever seen.

I'm not trying to be mean, but you're trying to compare builds and you've got one guy pumping strength through the rough, while everyone else is holding back in the builds.

I'm looking at your DPR numbers and I can't help but think there is something very wrong when the Monk is doing almost double the damage of every other class you built. Then I look at the numbers for the classes, and I see why. You've got a fairly powerful Monk build, but horrible builds for the other classes.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a Wizard buffed himself could out fight some of the classes you've built.

Well, one of the reasons I did this thread was because I've seen posts that basically state, "the fighter can be unoptimized AND out damage the monk AND have a better AC." You could build a fighter much like the barbarian, all strength, no dex, two-hand power attack with something big. But that isn't beating the monk at his own game. You want to two-weapon fight AND have a good AC, you need dex to get the feats and have Armor Training be something other than a way to move in heavy armor. After all, it doesn't do you much good to have full plate with a max dex of 5 and only have a dex of 0 or 1. Might as well not have armor training.

Since the point was to slot a monk or its replacement into an existing party, the assumption was the monk didn't have to compete against an optimized damage dealing fighter. The monk has to be relevant, and do his shtick better than the "better than the monk" crowd.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Raniel Kavilion wrote:
Tels wrote:

Ok, so I haven't looked at the numbers in a while until now, and I have to say, the fighters numbers are awful. You almost couldn't build a worse fighter if that was your intention to do so. Having Strength, Dexterity and Constitution all roughly the same number is a horrible decision when it comes to designing a character. The fighters you built are hands down some of the worse character builds I've ever seen.

I'm not trying to be mean, but you're trying to compare builds and you've got one guy pumping strength through the rough, while everyone else is holding back in the builds.

I'm looking at your DPR numbers and I can't help but think there is something very wrong when the Monk is doing almost double the damage of every other class you built. Then I look at the numbers for the classes, and I see why. You've got a fairly powerful Monk build, but horrible builds for the other classes.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a Wizard buffed himself could out fight some of the classes you've built.

Well, one of the reasons I did this thread was because I've seen posts that basically state, "the fighter can be unoptimized AND out damage the monk AND have a better AC."

I don't recall seeing that anywhere. I do recall saying that an un-optimized fighter can still function as a fighter, while an unoptimized monk can't function as a monk, but that's a very different thing to say. Sure a super-optimized monk can outfight a gimped fighter.

But unless you put equal levels of optimization in, you basically aren't proving anything. All this 'doing it myself to make it fair' is going to result in accusations you are rigging the numbers to make the monk look better than he is.

Raniel Kavilion wrote:
You could build a fighter much like the barbarian, all strength, no dex, two-hand power attack with something big. But that isn't beating the monk at his own game.

Why is it the monk's game? The object of a combat class is to hit their target and do damage to it, or otherwise be able to have a substantive effect on the enemy.

Raniel Kavilion wrote:
You want to two-weapon fight AND have a good AC, you need dex to get the feats and have Armor Training be something other than a way to move in heavy armor. After all, it doesn't do you much good to have full plate with a max dex of 5 and only have a dex of 0 or 1. Might as well not have armor training.

Wrong! Take a dex of 12 (or 14 absolute max) with your non-TWFing fighter. Wear full plate. Let the armour training rack up, and by the time you have enough, you switch from a belt of giant strength to a belt of physical power to boost dex as well. By high level, it'll be a belt of physical perfection, and that armour training will really count.

Raniel Kavilion wrote:
Since the point was to slot a monk or its replacement into an existing party, the assumption was the monk didn't have to compete against an optimized damage dealing fighter. The monk has to be relevant, and do his shtick better than the "better than the monk" crowd.

You aren't making sense. You want the fighter to beat the monk at the monk's game when you are slotting the fighter into the fighter's place in the party? Or are you asking can who the party would pick for a fifth member?

Either way, build the fighter to BE a fighter. Build the monk to BE a monk. THEN compare what they can offer a party.


I thought we were expected to see builds used in an actual game. Myself ,Dabbler, and others have already said a monk can contribute, and that a monk can do decent damage. One of the issues, and things you said you wanted to look into was could a monk be built by a noob. In other words how much does system mastery matter. I also thought there was a discussion of "Is there a reason to not just go class X instead of go monk". Gimping the fighter intentionally does not answer those question.

With that aside I think I have a solution to the Medusa Wrath issue for the DPR calculator. It is not elegant though. I will probably redo it later, but my first attempt is just me trying to get the correct numbers which it should do.

If I get it working I will post it on google docs, and hope google docs does not mess up the format. If that does not work then I will use mediafire(file hosting site), and provide a link.


I have it working, and it looks better than I thought it would.

Here is the link

To the right side of the document you will see a few blocks
DC for Stunning Fist-This is where put in the save needed to resist being stunned.

Save of Monster-This is where you put the monster's save modifer

Monster Roll needed-The document calculates this. As an example if the monk's DC for Stunning Fist is an 18, and the monster has a 14 then the document will tell you that the monster needs to roll a 4.

Chance for Success-This is the monk's actual chance for the monster to fail the save. The higher the better for the monk.

With that said the monk's DPR is about 61.9 without Medusa's Wrath, and 69.1 with it. I feet giving you 8 DPR is not bad. Now if the monk were able to use wisdom to attack this feat would be much better since the modifier to attack would also increase the chance of this feat coming into play, but that is a discussion for another thread.

I did set it up so others can download it. Sometime's google's "share" ability does not play nice. If you can't download it just post something here, and I will look into it when I get off work. Yeah I know, working on the weekend sucks.

Grand Lodge

I'll do like any good op-ed, I'll open with my conclusion for those that don't feel like reading all the way down. This test wasn't about slotting the monk into the primary fighter position. Thus I did not compare the monk to primary fighters (like say the max strength, two-hand power attacker with big weapon). I tried to compare him to folks who two-weapon fight because that is what the monk does with his flurry. I did not set out to "gimp" any one or "optimize" anyone. I tried to make choices from the Core Rulebook from the stats, feats, skills, and equipment that made sense for a secondary fighter, who would also help the rogue scout, or scout if the rogue focused their skill-monkeyishness on something other than stealth and acrobatics and climb.

I do find it interesting that I equated "melee" with "need strength" and got accused of optimizing the monk for having a high melee build. I did the exact same thing with the Ranger and there are no complaints there. Both get TWF for free and so don't need dex to get the feats. The fighters have to qualify for TWF, so they need dex. A bit MAD, but I also built a MAD monk who sucks DPR wise, and there were no complaints there. So go figure. I don't see it as unreasonable for a new player to think "i want two-weapon fighting. I need dex." I also don't see it as unreasonable for the same person to think "I want to hit things, I need strength, I don't need dex because I get two-weapon fighting for free," whether he is looking at the Ranger or the Monk.

Dabbler wrote:
I don't recall seeing that anywhere. I do recall saying that an un-optimized fighter can still function as a fighter, while an unoptimized monk can't function as a monk, but that's a very different thing to say. Sure a super-optimized monk can outfight a gimped fighter.

It was one of the "monk sucks" or "do you hate the monk as much as me" and I think (though don't quote me on it) that it was Ashiel that made the claim more than once that a fighter or a ranger could two-weapon fight and have better DPR and as good if not better AC than a monk.

Dabbler wrote:
But unless you put equal levels of optimization in, you basically aren't proving anything. All this 'doing it myself to make it fair' is going to result in accusations you are rigging the numbers to make the monk look better than he is.

I'm not really trying to optimize either side. That was kind of the point. In my mind, I'm trying to fill the same roll, a secondary melee, good DPR (or as good as you can get twf), good AC, with scouting ability. The scout part is at least good enough to see traps, even if he can't bypass them. I see a scout as someone who can see trouble long before trouble finds the party. The scout gives the party time to prepare for said trouble, or find a way around it. Though in a dungeon, against a trap, that tends to be bull through or go home if you don't have disable device.

Dabbler wrote:
Why is it the monk's game? The object of a combat class is to hit their target and do damage to it, or otherwise be able to have a substantive effect on the enemy.

Why is it anybody's game? I know everyone comes back with "don't get us wrong, we love the monk, but . . ." I see the but as it should be, everything before it is negated. I get the sense the monk really shouldn't/can't be played. I particularly find it interesting that I'm stating out what amounts to a secondary fighter, I'm not trying to optimize either monks or his competition for the fifth slot in a party, and yet there are cries of "foul" "no fair!" and "gimped fighter".

This was using Core Rulebook only. It struck me as odd that I'm trying to fill the secondary fighter role and getting beat up for not producing primary fighters, something everyone on these boards say the monk has no chance in hell of being (see below).

Dabbler wrote:
Wrong! Take a dex of 12 (or 14 absolute max) with your non-TWFing fighter. Wear full plate. Let the armour training rack up, and by the time you have enough, you switch from a belt of giant strength to a belt of physical power to boost dex as well. By high level, it'll be a belt of physical perfection, and that armour training will really count.

Sure, that's the primary fighter. As you and others have said, the monk is not a primary fighter. Hell, you've even said the monk versus the primary fighter negates the monk's worth.

From "keeping up with the monk's ac":

Dabbler wrote:
A monk built right can do some damage, but his chances to hit lag so far behind that compared to the fighter or barbarian he may as well not be there.

But you're idea for a fighter is already assumed to be in the party of four. The question is what is the fifth. I'm trying to build a secondary melee, to provide flanks for the fighter or rogue (also in the party), and do some damage himself. This is about what someone who is not an optimizer would do with the Core Rulebook and the mandate "make a secondary melee," after of course explaining what a secondary melee was.

You try that same "wait till 16 to get good dex" and you won't have a twf good ac fighter. You'll just have two primary fighters. That's fine. Do that. But there is more than one style for the fighter. High strength, two-handed power-attacking with a greatsword, full-plate-wearing fighter. The two-weapon fighter and the sword-and-board fighter are options. Sure they don't hit the high water mark of the two-hander, but they are options. I did my best to make choices that fit those two styles of combat as I see them as good secondary fighters to that high DPR zweihander.

Since the test assumed most campaigns wash up between 13 and 16, I saw 16 as retirement. I didn't assume 16 was where the fighter would finally start qualifying for the feats that were key to the build (itwf, gtwf, double slice, tw rend). I also didn't figure waiting till 16 for good AC was viable either. So pumping Strength and ignoring Dex until your wealth by level is high enough to afford the Belt of Physical Might or the Belt of Physical Perfection seemed a non-starter for two-weapon fighters.

Hell half the reason the DPR tables show folks losing to "Genero" is because he could hit their AC with more DPR than they could hit his. With the back up of a healer (assumed part of the party), most of these builds would win the combat. I calculated DPR as if the PC was the only one hitting Genero because you need a benchmark for each build to compare them. Saying, "well I was present when the primary fighter kept alive by the healer beat down Genero" could be applied to all of them, and tell you nothing.

Dabbler wrote:

You aren't making sense. You want the fighter to beat the monk at the monk's game when you are slotting the fighter into the fighter's place in the party? Or are you asking can who the party would pick for a fifth member?

Either way, build the fighter to BE a fighter. Build the monk to BE a monk. THEN compare what they can offer a party.

No, there is already a primary fighter (aka the pump the strength, non-twf as you describe above). The party also has the other three basic slots filled, cleric, wizard, and rogue. They could survive on their own without any more help, mostly. The APL/CR system assumes a party of four to five. The question is who do you slot into that fifth slot? There are many options.

I see the monk as a secondary fighter. He does melee, because of flurry of blows. Ranged not so much, because shuriken have a sucky range. You want core and good range? Then you go an archer. You get a back up scout. Monk has good movement, stealth and perception as class skills. He and the rogue could scout. Two perception checks to make sure you don't miss anything. Two high stealth checks to make sure you don't get spotted. Two party members to back each other up and flank should you somehow trip an encounter. Two guys with acrobatics so you can tumble passed the blockers and make it back to the party. The monk can either stay with the rogue if the monsters have a better move rate, or he can run back and warn the party to get ready if the rogue can stay ahead of the monsters. All good.

But as I said above, I started this because there were enough posts about how the monk has no role, isn't a anything (scout, secondary fighter, tank, cork, melee, ranged, out of combat multiplier, in combat multiplier) other than a warm body. There were enough posts about how the fighter could better AC than the monk and the fighter could hit while the monk could miss. I wondered if this was true. It turns out that if you remember you don't need more than a point or two of Dex mod because you already get TWF for free, yes you can hit.

The real sticker is how someone feels about Wisdom. It is needed for Stunning Fist, Quivering Palm, and Ki pool. The only one of the three that is really viable is Ki pool. Of course, that is not something a new player would see. So each of my builds includes the monk getting the Headband of Inspired Wisdom to pump Wisdom. I did focus on strength for more hit and damage, because I don't think it unreasonable to think a new player would focus on the stat that directly affects damage. I did include the Dex focused and Wisdom focused monks in the second document Maneuver Monk. So you get all four possible ideas (max Str, Dex, or Wis, or go Dex/Wis). Though I haven't added the Wisdom monk to the DPR table yet.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:

I have it working, and it looks better than I thought it would.

Here is the link

To the right side of the document you will see a few blocks
DC for Stunning Fist-This is where put in the save needed to resist being stunned.

Save of Monster-This is where you put the monster's save modifer

Monster Roll needed-The document calculates this. As an example if the monk's DC for Stunning Fist is an 18, and the monster has a 14 then the document will tell you that the monster needs to roll a 4.

Chance for Success-This is the monk's actual chance for the monster to fail the save. The higher the better for the monk.

With that said the monk's DPR is about 61.9 without Medusa's Wrath, and 69.1 with it. I feet giving you 8 DPR is not bad. Now if the monk were able to use wisdom to attack this feat would be much better since the modifier to attack would also increase the chance of this feat coming into play, but that is a discussion for another thread.

I did set it up so others can download it. Sometime's google's "share" ability does not play nice. If you can't download it just post something here, and I will look into it when I get off work. Yeah I know, working on the weekend sucks.

Thanks, this will help lots. It will be a few days before I go through and correct all the numbers. Got something like 100 pages to read by Wednesday and another 100 due by Thursday.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Raniel Kavilion wrote:
{stuff}

I'm sorry, but this looks like a set of excuses just to not build a decent fighter. The idea that he is a 'secondary fighter' doesn't wash. Your secondary fighter is an archer, or a maneuver expert, or a duelist - he's out to be good at something the standard fighter isn't good at. You didn't make those, you made gimped fighters.


Raniel Kavilion wrote:


I do find it interesting that I equated "melee" with "need strength" and got accused of optimizing the monk for having a high melee build. I did the exact same thing with the Ranger and there are no complaints there. Both get TWF for free and so don't need dex to get the feats. The fighters have to qualify for TWF, so they need dex. A bit MAD, but I also built a MAD monk who sucks DPR wise, and there were no complaints there. So go figure. I don't see it as unreasonable for a new player to think "i want two-weapon fighting. I need dex." I also don't see it as unreasonable for the same person to think "I want to hit things, I need strength, I don't need dex because I get two-weapon fighting for free," whether he is looking at the Ranger or the Monk.

I don't think giving the monk a high strength was a bad idea, but giving the fighter a low strength for TWF was a bad idea. Those fighters in the DPR thread were optimized, but not best possible which make them reasonable for an actual game. I think the level 10 TWF'ing fighter still did at least 50 DPR. Don't quote me on that, so I would expect the level 11 version to do more. He should have at least done a good deal more than 34 DPR. The new guy would have also had weapon finesse if he was going for a dex build or just only went for minimum dex, and boosted strength. Even most new people will dump int and or charisma for a fighter. At least I did when I was new so have my new players.

Quote:
I'm not really trying to optimize either side. That was kind of the point. In my mind, I'm trying to fill the same roll, a secondary melee, good DPR (or as good as you can get twf), good AC, with scouting ability. The scout part is at least good enough to see traps, even if he can't bypass them. I see a scout as someone who can see trouble long before trouble finds the party. The scout gives the party time to prepare for said trouble, or find a way around it. Though in a dungeon, against a trap, that tends to be bull through or go home if you don't have disable device.

Nobody would build a fighter, even if was the 5th member, as secondary combatant though. If that is what they do they better be good at it, and in this case fighting is their thing.

Oh well it seems we misunderstood your intentions. I thought you were questioning our opinion of the monk's ability to contribute, especially by a new person to a group. I also thought you were trying to decide if people were better off just choosing another class instead.

If we would have known you were going to use a fighter built to not do primary fighter damage we could have saved you some time. :)

In short in an actual game nobody I know will build the fighter to not do its best. If they do build a dex based fighter he will pump dex, and have strength not so high, and take weapon finesse. Yeah it is better to use strength for a TWF fighter, but if you are not going to focus on strength then focus on dex. I think even a new person would know to focus on one stat or the other. That has been my experience anyway.

It was one of the "monk sucks" or "do you hate the monk as much as me" and I think (though don't quote me on it) that it was Ashiel that made the claim more than once that a fighter or a ranger could...


I'm not sure if Ashiel actually said that, but I also wouldn't put it past him. I also have no intention of scouring that thread to find out. I'm pretty sure Ashiel prefers the 'multi-purpose' classes over the one hit wonders. By that I mean, he prefers Bards to Rogues and Rangers/Paladins to Fighters/Barbarians because they at least have some out of combat options or spell casting to supplement their role.

Hmm, now that you've brought Ashiel up, I haven't seen him on the forums in awhile. I wonder what's up? I kinda miss the 5 way arguments that Ciretose would start :P

(J/K Ciretose, I know we all contribute to those)

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
I don't think giving the monk a high strength was a bad idea, but giving the fighter a low strength for TWF was a bad idea. Those fighters in the DPR thread were optimized, but not best possible which make them reasonable for an actual game. I think the level 10 TWF'ing fighter still did at least 50 DPR. Don't quote me on that, so I would expect the level 11 version to do more. He should have at least done a good deal more than 34 DPR. The new guy would have also had weapon finesse if he was going for a dex build or just only went for minimum dex, and boosted strength. Even most new people will dump int and or charisma for a fighter. At least I did when I was new so have my new players.

As I see it there are two ways to deal with Strength and Dex for a two-weapon fighter. First you go whole hog with one (both level bumps and enhancement bonus) with just enough of the other to do what you need. This could be say a 15 dex to get TWF and accept you are not getting itwf, gtwf, or two weapon rend. Or it could be say 14 Strength, just enough to have a +2 to damage and weapon finesse. The two-sword fighter went with this option.

You could also raise one with level bumps and the other with a stat item. This is not too different from the MAD of a traditional monk. Wisdom and Dex get moved up together. I went with this route with the first iteration of the sword and board fighter. The second sword and board fighter went with more Strength than dex, but enough dex to qualify for the entire twf feat chain.

In the second case you run into the issue of wealth by level. How much can you justify throwing at a stat item, when you also need weapons, armor, and other gear?

On the issue of stat dumping, that was a bit of a tricky one for me. I'm fine with stat dumping. I've played with enough GM's and other players who look on it askance. In one case, the GM's six page background document and player's instructions included the line (paraphrasing) "You're heroes. Heroes are leaders. Leaders don't have a combined Int/Wis/Cha of less than 30." So, can we say that a new player will immediately dump one or more stats as low as they will go? If you guys think so, fine, I'll redo the stats.

I will also note, I'm still working out the fight protocol. How often does the cleric or wizard buff.? I'm assuming they have at least one Align Weapon or GMW to help out. Do they have two? Can we assume quickened so that overcoming DR with a minutes per level spell is online as early as the first round? If you look at the DPR table, you will note that in most cases, the lower DPR comes because only one weapon is assumed to be Good aligned at 11th level. The DPR's of the 6th level folks are all in line. Hell, all the monks totally suck until they use cold iron kamas, and even then don't rock. At 11th, the monk is able to devote 1/3 of his WBL to a +2 Holy AoMF. This helps, if they ran into materials only, they suck. It isn't till "retirement" (aka 16th) that a monk can rely on a +3 Holy AoMF to pretty much ignore needingother weapons.


Not exactly, Raniel. You can easily have a fighter start with the following ability scores (in a 20-point buy):

Str 16 (10 pts), Dex 13 (3 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Int 10 (0 pts), Wis 12 (2 pts), and Cha 10 (0 pts).

Put your stat increase in Dex and you wind up with Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, and Cha 10. Okay, now you are two-weapon fighting with excellent strength. Put four of your ability level-ups in Str and one in Dex.

To get Improved Two-Weapon (Dex 17, BAB +6), you need a belt of dexterity +2, which you can easily have at 6th level (16,000 gp WBL).

To get Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (Dex 19, BAB +11), you need a belt of dexterity +4, which (once again), you can easily have at 11th level (82,000 WBL).

By 16th level, with a belt of physical might +6 (Str/Dex), you are looking at ability scores of Str 26, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, and Cha 10. And you still have 225,000 gp left to spend.

Too bad that Pathfinder consolidated all the physical stat boosters into belts, because it would be a LOT cheaper to get gloves of dexterity (+2 for 4,000; +4 for 16,000; +6 for 36,000) and a belt of strength (+2 for 4,000; +4 for 16,000; +6 for 36,000) instead of buying a single belt of physical might (+2 for 10,000; +4 for 40,000; +6 for 90,000).

Luckily, if you have a wizard or sorcerer or cleric in the party, they can make you gloves of dexterity! With that option, you could be looking at this:

6th level: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10, spending 8,000 gp on belt of strength +2 and gloves of dexterity +2, leaving you with 8,000 gp left over.

11th level: Str 22, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10, spending 32,000 gp on belt of strength +2 and gloves of dexterity +4, leaving you with 50,000 gp left over.

MA


Raniel Kavilion wrote:


I will also note, I'm still working out the fight protocol. How often does the cleric or wizard buff.? I'm assuming they have at least one Align Weapon or GMW to help out. Do they have two? Can we assume quickened so that overcoming DR with a minutes per level spell is online as early as the first round? If you look at the DPR table, you will note that in most cases, the lower DPR comes because only one weapon is assumed to be Good aligned at 11th level. The DPR's of the 6th level folks are all in line. Hell, all the monks totally suck until they use cold iron kamas, and even then don't rock. At 11th, the monk is able to devote 1/3 of his WBL to a +2 Holy AoMF. This helps, if they ran into materials only, they suck. It isn't till "retirement" (aka 16th) that a monk can rely on a +3 Holy AoMF to pretty much ignore needingother weapons.

I think it depends on how many enemies they are facing, and the threat level of the enemies. It the party has the numbers then opening up with haste might help. The cleric, if he is made for combat, might not even buff, and just wade into combat. If the numbers are highly against the party the cleric might drop a summon monster spell. The wizard/sorcerer then caste haste on everyone.

These are just examples though. Sometimes they might not use any spells at all.

Grand Lodge

master arminas wrote:

Not exactly, Raniel. You can easily have a fighter start with the following ability scores (in a 20-point buy):

Str 16 (10 pts), Dex 13 (3 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Int 10 (0 pts), Wis 12 (2 pts), and Cha 10 (0 pts).

Put your stat increase in Dex and you wind up with Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, and Cha 10. Okay, now you are two-weapon fighting with excellent strength. Put four of your ability level-ups in Str and one in Dex.

To get Improved Two-Weapon (Dex 17, BAB +6), you need a belt of dexterity +2, which you can easily have at 6th level (16,000 gp WBL).

To get Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (Dex 19, BAB +11), you need a belt of dexterity +4, which (once again), you can easily have at 11th level (82,000 WBL).

By 16th level, with a belt of physical might +6 (Str/Dex), you are looking at ability scores of Str 26, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, and Cha 10. And you still have 225,000 gp left to spend.

Too bad that Pathfinder consolidated all the physical stat boosters into belts, because it would be a LOT cheaper to get gloves of dexterity (+2 for 4,000; +4 for 16,000; +6 for 36,000) and a belt of strength (+2 for 4,000; +4 for 16,000; +6 for 36,000) instead of buying a single belt of physical might (+2 for 10,000; +4 for 40,000; +6 for 90,000).

Luckily, if you have a wizard or sorcerer or cleric in the party, they can make you gloves of dexterity! With that option, you could be looking at this:

6th level: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10, spending 8,000 gp on belt of strength +2 and gloves of dexterity +2, leaving you with 8,000 gp left over.

11th level: Str 22, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10, spending 32,000 gp on belt of strength +2 and gloves of dexterity +4, leaving you with 50,000 gp left over.

MA

I will admit that personally, I'm leery of relying on spells or dex item to qualify for a feat that is part of the core build. That being said, someone else (Wraithstrike, I think) pointed out that dispelling a stat item really was an edge case and serious metagaming by the GM. I could go with this and it will bring the sword and board fighter's numbers up.

The fact that a Belt of Physical Might would have to wait till a tier higher was one reason I was building the way I did. After all, I figure sinking 1/3 of your wealth into a single item is unrealistic. And asking for that item to be suppressed.

I agree with the idea for Gloves of Dex. Though that would mean no Duelist Gloves. Though neither is viable in this restricted environment as neither is strictly speaking Core. But I play a "mage-smith" in an ongoing Kingmaker campaign and I am set up to make the party all kinds of things. Though the npcs are looking askance at the scrawny, strength 10 wizard working a forge.

So, if everyone feels Master Aramis' stat layout is more fair (and I take it from Dabbler's responses above he at least agrees), then I'll switch to those. Though give me by the weekend to update the doc and DPR table. Also, I'll add in at least three lines for each group. That would be beats DR 10 with both weapons, beats DR 10 with one, doesn't beat DR 10.

In a week or two, I might add in the same for DR 5 for the APL 6 group and DR 15 for the 11th and 16th groups. We'll see how my time works out for that. Though, with the way my wife is glaring at me, I wouldn't hold your breath!

EDIT: the above should read, I WILL change to the above stat layout. Also "sinking MORE than 1/3 of your wealth" 1/3 of the WBL was the cap I put on spending.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
Raniel Kavilion wrote:


I will also note, I'm still working out the fight protocol. How often does the cleric or wizard buff.? I'm assuming they have at least one Align Weapon or GMW to help out. Do they have two? Can we assume quickened so that overcoming DR with a minutes per level spell is online as early as the first round? If you look at the DPR table, you will note that in most cases, the lower DPR comes because only one weapon is assumed to be Good aligned at 11th level. The DPR's of the 6th level folks are all in line. Hell, all the monks totally suck until they use cold iron kamas, and even then don't rock. At 11th, the monk is able to devote 1/3 of his WBL to a +2 Holy AoMF. This helps, if they ran into materials only, they suck. It isn't till "retirement" (aka 16th) that a monk can rely on a +3 Holy AoMF to pretty much ignore needingother weapons.

I think it depends on how many enemies they are facing, and the threat level of the enemies. It the party has the numbers then opening up with haste might help. The cleric, if he is made for combat, might not even buff, and just wade into combat. If the numbers are highly against the party the cleric might drop a summon monster spell. The wizard/sorcerer then caste haste on everyone.

These are just examples though. Sometimes they might not use any spells at all.

Well, I added the +1 hit, +1 damage, and +1 attack lines in addition to the straight DPR so that folks could see how things like haste (+1 attack, +1 hit) or bard's inspire courage (+x hit, +x damage) affect the numbers. My real concern was how quickly could DR defeating spells and effects come online and with two weapons would it be reasonable to show DPR for one and/or both weapons. I've decided to show the affects of DR by showing each PC defeating DR completely, not defeating DR at all, and only having one weapon defeat DR. That should be fair. I'll do DR 10 for now. I might do DR 5 and 15 as I have free time.

EDIT: I am also not sure if going straight +x weapons is "fair" for the test. Since I included +2 Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists, it seems only fair to consider the possibility of +1 weapons with elemental damagers and having the wizard using GMW on the primary weapon, since it can be an "all day" spell. However, I also wonder if this is too optimized for the noob to think of on his own.

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