Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Discussion and Analysis of Sex and Female Characters in Paizo's APs


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

101 to 150 of 195 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Pawns Subscriber
Haladir wrote:


** Hook Mountain Massacre spoiler omitted **

All I'm going to say, Haladir, is that you and I must have read the exact same books as kids. I was planning on something identical. Seriously, almost absolutely identical.

So if you're reading my writeups (a daunting task), I DID NOT STEAL YOUR IDEA!!!

Sorry, I seem incapable of avoiding levity on the serious-topic threads. A personality disorder, I'm sure.

But on the serious side, yes, I would never spring such a thing on a PC without express permission from the player beforehand, and without discussing it with the rest of the group. I even sent a warning e-mail to my group yesterday that tonight's session might be uncomfortable for them (it's the HMM scene), and they should absolutely let me know if I start stepping over the line.

I said before that having a GM able to set the proper level is key (and unfortunately it seems like everyone got sidetracked by my comment on minis), but the GM DOES have to know the material intimately, so the GMs sometimes end up having to read more than they care to. Interestingly enough, Stolen Lands did make me a bit uncomfortable with its victimization of women, but Hook Mountain Massacre with its outright gore didn't bother me a bit.


Andrea1 wrote:
Will there be male/male couples in future products?

Weren't there one or two male/male couples in AP already? I haven't read it but I received such impression from reading comments in various threads.


Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

As to the concepts of rape, I will refer to some of the above posts. Some tables are not mature enough to handle such concepts, some players are offended by them. It's up to the DM to change things to meet those players' needs.

As to everyone else, rape exists. It is not a pretty thing, it is not something to be taken lightly, but it exists. Consider the Half-Orc dilemma.

Some half-orcs are descendant from true breeding half-orcs. The rest are from Human/Orc couplings. Yes, it is possible for the couples to have a mutual attraction; she sees a big, strong man, he sees an image of beauty type thing. However, orcs are typically brutal and many humans find them repulsive. This results in couplings often being forced or accidental.

Thus your human raised half-orc character has one of three possible pasts:
1) Mom and dad were that one in a million outlier couple.
2) Mom/Dad was raped by mom/dad.
3) Mom/Dad got REEEEEEAAAALLLLY drunk that one night....

Now take these options and spread them across every human raised half-orc.

Please do take into account that those two reasons are not the only ones in existence for quieting down on the topic.

The fact that some people have been traumatized by real life experiences is also one reason to keep it out of the spotlight.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
NobodysHome wrote:

All I'm going to say, Haladir, is that you and I must have read the exact same books as kids. I was planning on something identical. Seriously, almost absolutely identical.

So if you're reading my writeups (a daunting task), I DID NOT STEAL YOUR IDEA!!!

I *think* that was part of Nick Logue's original plot for Hook Mountain Massacre that ended up on the cutting room floor. But, if I didn't want people taking my ideas, I wouldn't be sharing them on a public forum!

Spoilers for my version of Hook Mountain Massacre:
I thought that Kaven becoming a victim in that way was karmic justice for selling out the Rangers.

I made another change to the Graul Farm encounter: I changed the sex of Black Arrow ranger Vale Temros. (Yes, the Graul Boys had done unspeakable things to her too, and to Jakardos too, but off-camera. Ogres aren't discriminating.)

I made that change to add a non-villain female NPC to Hook Mountain Massacre-- there aren't any as-written if I recall correctly. I also added a female sheriff of Turtleback Ferry, but she never came up in play.

To up the gore even more at the Graul Farm, (and to make it even more like The Texas Chainsaw Massacre), the party found three human corpses hanging from meat hooks in the barn, each naked and gutted like a deer. These were the other three Black Arrows that had been captured.

After the encounter at the Graul Farm, the PCs were so horrified that they burned the whole place to the ground.

Oh, and I have been following your campaign journal. Great stuff! Mine's at Obsidian Portal.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

As a GM it is about setting expectations and preparing your players for the themes and elements of the story.

The first thing you say is I like to GM my games like X or X will be the subtext or theme of my game.

As it is a popular part of the discussion I am going to use Hook Mountain as an example of my pitch to my players.

My pitch:

Ok guys, I have a very dark and grim adventure set mostly in the outdoors, with some dungeon exploration.

There are some topics and themes in the adventure that some of you may find difficult. I would like for you to come and talk with me privately if there is any subject you may not want me to touch on.

In the private conversation I let them know they don't need to tell me why they don't want me to use certain themes (as i do not wish to make them uncomfortable). Just where I shouldn't go.

I then explain a bit more of the theme to the player - this game is basically a horror movie it is gross and gory. I can tone things done here and there but there are some very unsubtle moments.

If it is just one player that doesn't like pitch and we can't reach a compromise in the discussion. I ask the player if they mind sitting this one out. They will get to choose the next game we play.

If it is one third of the players dont want to play the module then I shelve the pitch and look for something else to run. If the remaining players are still keen, then I will see if I can set up an alternate game night and run it for them.

These dark and grim themes have been part of horror movies and stories since the beginning of both forms of entertainment. I am reluctant to censor things but I also understand that Role Playing makes a person part of that story and their history and background plays a role in their enjoyment of the game so as a GM I have to be sensitive to both.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
As to the concepts of rape, I will refer to some of the above posts. Some tables are not mature enough to handle such concepts, some players are offended by them. It's up to the DM to change things to meet those players' needs.

Please do take into account that those two reasons are not the only ones in existence for quieting down on the topic.

The fact that some people have been traumatized by real life experiences is also one reason to keep it out of the spotlight.

Wouldn't "some people have been traumatized by real life experiences" fall under the "some players are offended by them" container?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Brian E. Harris wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
As to the concepts of rape, I will refer to some of the above posts. Some tables are not mature enough to handle such concepts, some players are offended by them. It's up to the DM to change things to meet those players' needs.

Please do take into account that those two reasons are not the only ones in existence for quieting down on the topic.

The fact that some people have been traumatized by real life experiences is also one reason to keep it out of the spotlight.

Wouldn't "some people have been traumatized by real life experiences" fall under the "some players are offended by them" container?

There's a difference between offended and triggering a flashback to trauma.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Andrea1 wrote:

I checked through Shattered Star 3 and am familiar with other portrayals of same-sex couples but I do wonder if Paizo isn't catering to the 'Girl on girl is hot' fetish.

** spoiler omitted **

Will there be male/male couples in future products?

Yes, there will.

We had a male/male couple in Pathfinder #1, though. Another is in the Rival Guide. There's been more, but those are the first two that come to mind.

But there'll be more.


James Jacobs wrote:
Andrea1 wrote:

I checked through Shattered Star 3 and am familiar with other portrayals of same-sex couples but I do wonder if Paizo isn't catering to the 'Girl on girl is hot' fetish.

** spoiler omitted **

Will there be male/male couples in future products?

Yes, there will.

We had a male/male couple in Pathfinder #1, though. Another is in the Rival Guide. There's been more, but those are the first two that come to mind.

But there'll be more.

Stolen Land itself also has one male/male couple, and I think that volume only had around two couples specifically documented in total.

I'm limited to only Rise of the Runelords, Jade Regent, and player knowledge of all of Council of Thieves, early Kingmaker, and most of Curse of the Crimson Throne, but I'm not recalling any others.

As for sexual victimization, I think the record is relatively even in most of the volumes I've read, though our group also noticed Stolen Land as being light on female characters period (our womanizing bard had mostly nobody to womanize with until the kingdom was built) and high on rape. Let's see what I can recall in general--here's everything that I think would fit by even loose interpretation, but it's completely from memory and thus probably incomplete.

Rise of the Runelords:

1) Nualia is seduced by a scoundrel and left pregnant and alone in backstory.
2) Justice Ironbriar is raped by Xanesha via enchantment magic.
3) Everything. To everyone. The ogres! The horror! Lucrecia uses a mix of magic and mundane charms to sexually victimize and addict countless men. The ogres rape and rip apart lots of Black Arrows in backstory. Lamatar Bayden is used by the hags for reasons best off not asking, and Myriana is raped and torn apart.
4) None here whatsoever
5) Mr. Mutt is utterly broken by Delvahine and her daughters.
6) Viorian Dekanti would perhaps be a victim of this if Karzoug was free, but as is I think nobody again.

Council of Thieves:

Forgive my spellings here--I was a player and so didn't read the names
1) Nobody.
2) Calseinica by Thesing with the philtre of love.
3) Nobody
4) A huge group of tiefling males, including the foreman who is seduced and killed in backstory by the succubus cleric of Nocticula. I'm not entirely sure what was done to the poor vulpinal and he doesn't remember either, but if there was any sexual violence here it would be male on male.
5) Ilnerik Sivanshin vampirically transformed himself a pet sorceress in Walcourt. A very convoluted scheme involving coins and Mammon and the Mother of Flies and Vasinido Drovenge such that I'm not sure which gender is the victimizer/victim here.
6) Didn't seem to be any here.

Curse of the Crimson Throne:

A player again, and we're only on Part 5, so won't be complete
1) Gaedran Lamm screwed over both males and females, particularly those who chose traits that worked with sexual abuse. Vimanda Arkona magically seduced Verik Vancaskerkin. Ileosa sexually manipulated the king's hunchback brother into killing Eodric.
2) Lots of woman on woman sexual-based violence--Scarification and perhaps sexual torture for all the Grey Maidens. Something with Ileosa and Sabina? (my character thinks so but we don't have hard proof).
3) Laori with any of her partners, presumably. That dark sphinx was torturing Vencarlo too, though we didn't go into the details of how.
4) Perhaps Sial and his evangelist kyton do such things, but offscreeen if so.
5) None so far

Kingmaker:

I've played this up to midway through Part 3, but we have an insane diviner, so we know more things than a typical group would

1) This is really the big one, in that every female human has attempted rape occur, not to say no male on male. They try to rape Svetlana. They try to rape Kressle. There aren't even any other human female NPCs in the volume than that. The Stag Lord seems to have been sexually abused and also has other issues. The guy from Nisroc (was his name Dovan?) seemed to like to torture blond men in a particular way.
2) None here though.
3) None so far, and it looks like souls are more in danger here.
Beyond) I'm sure Nyrissa is going to add a lot of victimization of both genders when we find out what her deal is.

Jade Regent:

I've read this in prep for running, so this is likely to be missing the most, since I haven't run them

1) None that I remember except with the ogrekin and her other ogrekin. Even the harpy and the oni have a mutual, if tempestuous, relationship. Surprisingly, despite the captive stripped of her gear and the ogre that presumably had access to her, I don't remember even a hint that anything like that went on.
2) None here either that I recall.
3) Pretty much everything relating to Katiyana, and it's gender blind. Her father was ensorcelled, raped, and utterly destroyed in every way by a succubus. Then Katiyana herself was used by a cult that taught her that he had abandoned her. Then she seduced Tunuak the village oracle to betray everything he had protected.
4) Munasakaru does what she wants with all the hobgoblins and other potential males in order to spawn her precious daughters.
5) The Pearl Wizard takes this into especially squicky territory by attempting to transfer his wife's soul into his daughter's (different wife--he killed the first with a nue) body, presumably to add incest to injury for O-Sayumi.
6) Renshi Meida doesn't care who she seduces and destroys, including the former Emperor. The Hall of Shame for evil emperors and empresses also has plenty of instances, such as the LE empress who raped other women.

Have not read or played any other Pathfinder AP.

So my summary from memory on sexual violence seems to indicate that it is balanced between gender and orientations. If anything, more men than women were targeted other than Stolen Land.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Gwen Smith wrote:
Over the years, I've met too many people who defend scenes of sexual violence against women as "necessary" for realism or story development . . .

I've met many such people, as well, though, oddly enough, they were primarily women. I remember watching The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo a while ago without having any real clue of what the film contained. I was about a heartbeat away from walking out of the theater during that rape scene because it was just too overbearing for me. When I expressed my displeasure at the work place about the scene, all of my women coworkers adamantly defended its necessity in the film to convey the emotional impact of the crime.

It hasn't been just the film either though. I've noticed this trend when discussing books or other media that include this topic. It's terribly strange to me, and I'm truly lucky that my inner circle of friends would rather such things weren't delved into in too much detail at all. That's not to say the topic never comes up in story elements or the like, but it's more like a "glossing-over" than a delving into with us.

I'm currently running "Stolen Lands" right now, and will go on record as saying that I've removed the majority of it from my campaign, feeling it an unnecessary vehicle. I think the only one I left in there was Kressel because she quickly turned the tide and swiped off a couple bandits' hands for their ill-intent.

That said, I will also go so far as to say this: I have never seen Paizo go into the realm of the hell? when such an element has been introduced to their stories. They've been very mature about how they breech this subject, for a certainty, which is why I don't feel there's a problem when they do hint at such things in their APs. The GM has the power to take it out if (s)he so wishes.

I also feel the same way when it comes to the absence of it in their APs. I don't get why people are so up in arms about Skull & Shackles, in fact. If that type of "realism" is what you're after in a pirates game, it's not difficult to include it, despite there not being anything written about it. Again, that's a GMs decision/job, as (s)he should understand the likes/dislikes of his/her players well enough to know what to put in there and what to take out.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber

To Rogue Eidolon or anyone else:

Re: Council of Thieves:
I'm running it so just a few notes:
Rogue Eidolen wrote:
2) Calseinica by Thesing with the philtre of love.

Very much in character for Thesing - but not actually in the book.

Rogue Eidolen wrote:
4) A huge group of tiefling males, including the foreman who is seduced and killed in backstory by the succubus cleric of Nocticula. I'm not entirely sure what was done to the poor vulpinal and he doesn't remember either, but if there was any sexual violence here it would be male on male.

Yes on the succubus - but the Vulpinal is female. Her torture was mental and physically in the book.

Rogue Eidolen wrote:
5) Ilnerik Sivanshin vampirically transformed himself a pet sorceress in Walcourt. A very convoluted scheme involving coins and Mammon and the Mother of Flies and Vasinido Drovenge such that I'm not sure which gender is the victimizer/victim here.

As for the coins and Mammon - I would consider that more of a trickery and power thing rather than a sexual issue. And the one who was really screwed by that was Vasinido's wife (who died in the childbirth).

Ilnerik Sivanshin is a comtrolling SOB. This links back to book #3 as well where he set up a bunch of publically known vampire murders to lure in a vampire hunter. He turned her into a vampire (and she hated it) and wouldn't let her end her life. (Which frankly even if no sex involved, just as bad in my mind.)

And, yeah, Silana just makes him worse.


chavamana wrote:

To Rogue Eidolon or anyone else:

** spoiler omitted **

Council of Thieves:

2) Thesing--Oh right, the GM mentioned this later as being not specifically called out. He does have it in his inventory though, she said, and he certainly tries to get her as a vampire in Part 6, though it fails if the PCs are competent, so I didn't include it.

4) The vulpinal was female? Gotcha. We had two paladins of Shelyn (and a lay Shelynite), so we helped him/her/the poor thing as we could and returned her home to Nirvana to convalesce better. Since that wasn't male on male, that actually puts the number of male on male examples in the APs I highlighted pretty low compared to the high number of female on male, female on female, and male on female.

3) Our group knew about Vanwhin (was that her name?) in general being a former vampire hunter, but there didn't seem to be a sexual component. Still yeah, that Ilnerik Sivanshin...just an awful fellow and probably the best BBEG of the series, despite not being the final boss.


Andrea1 wrote:

I checked through Shattered Star 3 and am familiar with other portrayals of same-sex couples but I do wonder if Paizo isn't catering to the 'Girl on girl is hot' fetish.

** spoiler omitted **

Will there be male/male couples in future products?

I've got similar concerns regarding depictions of gay/lesbian characters in Paizo products. I also fear the "token" effect mentioned earlier.

James Jacobs wrote:
We had a male/male couple in Pathfinder #1, though.

I appreciated how well done this coupling was. Both characters involved could be interacted with, but weren't central to the story. Gave a bit of character to the town. Also, I love how one of them was a paladin. This fact shocked one of my players, who promptly blurted "Paladins can be gay?" My response, was simply, "Of course they can!" Good times.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
There's a difference between offended and triggering a flashback to trauma.

Sure, but I'd be pretty surprised if those who had a flashback would remain unoffended, hence, referring to those who are offended as such is kinda a shorthand way of grouping those folks together.

Of course, I could be wrong. There might very well be people who aren't offended by having a traumatic flashback triggered in themselves. They might be totally fine with it.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Andrea1 wrote:

I checked through Shattered Star 3 and am familiar with other portrayals of same-sex couples but I do wonder if Paizo isn't catering to the 'Girl on girl is hot' fetish.

** spoiler omitted **

Will there be male/male couples in future products?

Yes, there will.

We had a male/male couple in Pathfinder #1, though. Another is in the Rival Guide. There's been more, but those are the first two that come to mind.

But there'll be more.

Curse of the Crimson Throne:
There's Neolandus Kaleopolis and Salvator Scream too, though IIRC it was a bit unclear until someone pointed it out.

I guess there's a fair criticism in that that couple and most of the others aren't exactly played for attraction, at least those that got art, while all of the lesbian couples with art that I've seen totally have been. Not that there's anything wrong with that and oh dammit this is going to turn into a jumble let me untangle it

  • I think a number of fans want more gay-friendly fanservice and/or attractive gay characters, and that's okay.

  • I think there are some fans that want lesbian characters that don't feel like their sexuality is played for fanservice, and that's okay.

  • I think there are fans that appreciate having attractive lesbian characters represented in art, and that's okay too.

    I think one thing that happens too often is that when any of that is touched on there's often a hard reaction to it, and much of the time it can be understandable. Put in a bunch of manservice, some folks are going to feel like they're being fetishized. Put in plain or unattractive lesbian characters and folks will read things into that as well.

    I guess the only real solution is something Paizo already does: Variety. It's been said time and time again by Paizo staff and fans alike, but the best thing to do for a fandom filled with all sorts of people is to provide all sorts of characters representing all sorts of people, and Pathfinder does that now. That kind of all-inclusiveness has been one of the major strong points of the line. The only real recommendation is to just dial it up even further as things go on. :)

    I figure that maybe a sizable portion of the fandom wants a bisexual troubled tiefling guy or rare-redemption-possible incubus to latch onto in Wrath of the Righteous, but I could be wrong.

    (personally I'm pulling for marilith fanservice, but that's just me)

    Spoiler:
    srsly though, I can't complain. Wrath of the Righteous already seems like distilled GOOD fanservice. :D

  • Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
    James Sutter wrote:
    Also, don't forget the interracial lesbian couple in The Asylum Stone! Herifax is kind of evil--I mean, she *is* a harpy--but Kanya's just conflicted and out for herself.

    Yep, that's actually the couple that pushed me into posting. On the flipside,

    Spoiler:
    they're also the "possible 'love redeems' couple" i mentioned earlier as well. :) Honestly, that Morale/Tactics section was a treat to see, because everything else aside, it did a great job of humanizing* a character certain groups probably would have otherwise tried to kill on sight.

    *We need a better word for that for settings with multiple races

    I love Herifax's design partly because she's such a fashion trainwreck. Heck, that might wind up garnering player sympathy just as much as the other thing! ;)


    Mikaze wrote:
    James Sutter wrote:
    Also, don't forget the interracial lesbian couple in The Asylum Stone! Herifax is kind of evil--I mean, she *is* a harpy--but Kanya's just conflicted and out for herself.

    Yep, that's actually the couple that pushed me into posting. On the flipside, ** spoiler omitted **

    I love Herifax's design partly because she's such a fashion trainwreck. Heck, that might wind up garnering player sympathy just as much as the other thing! ;)

    ...now you've got me curious about Shattered Star.

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

    As a straight person living in a Catholic country, I totally approve of having more LGBT content in Paizo's products. I've already had 3 players thank me for including LGBT themes in my games, because it made them feel a little more normal in a place where everything around screams "you'll burn in hell for what you're doing".


    I'm still baffled (and somewhat amused) by that, actually.

    Never heard a Jewish person cry about D&D being the work of the devil.

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
    Icyshadow wrote:

    I'm still baffled (and somewhat amused) by that, actually.

    Never heard a Jewish person cry about D&D being the work of the devil.

    I didn't mean the "D&D is devil" problem (but this one exists here, too) but the "LGBT is devil" problem - that one's much bigger, and I'm sure you would find quite a few religious people of every religion/denomination who would speak in this tone.

    (Before somebody jumps me, I'm not implying that religion = bigotry).

    And when the society as a whole joins the chorus and the mainstream media keep the lid on LGBT themes closed for sake of not angering some bishop, you can feel alienated quickly.


    They're sort of related. I know I should have highlighted the LGBT part, so apologies for being unclear on that.

    People do stupid things when working together, and that can be seen with religious groups as well as other organizations.


    It would be interesting to see some burly,middling-looks, battle-scarred types
    who are a couple and adopted an orphan after a war. A smith who has small burn scars on his arms, beet red from the heat of the forge and another soldier who has a broken nose, maybe a few teeth missing and looks like he is in need of a bath after a week on patrol. :)

    Or a baker who has sampled too much of his own products.


    Brian E. Harris wrote:
    thejeff wrote:
    There's a difference between offended and triggering a flashback to trauma.

    Sure, but I'd be pretty surprised if those who had a flashback would remain unoffended, hence, referring to those who are offended as such is kinda a shorthand way of grouping those folks together.

    Of course, I could be wrong. There might very well be people who aren't offended by having a traumatic flashback triggered in themselves. They might be totally fine with it.

    I guess you could look at it that way.

    I see them as very separate categories. Likely upset, definitely not fine with it, but not offended either. I've seen reactions afterwards more like "I'm sorry, I shouldn't let that get to me" than "I can't believe you put something like that in the game".
    Obviously someone could be both.

    Or think of it like someone with a serious phobia about spiders or something. They're not offended by movies with spiders, they just don't want to see them because they'll freak out.
    Obviously different, but similar in that the reaction isn't a conscious one.


    Sub-Creator wrote:
    Gwen Smith wrote:
    Over the years, I've met too many people who defend scenes of sexual violence against women as "necessary" for realism or story development . . .

    I've met many such people, as well, though, oddly enough, they were primarily women. I remember watching The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo a while ago without having any real clue of what the film contained. I was about a heartbeat away from walking out of the theater during that rape scene because it was just too overbearing for me. When I expressed my displeasure at the work place about the scene, all of my women coworkers adamantly defended its necessity in the film to convey the emotional impact of the crime.

    It hasn't been just the film either though. I've noticed this trend when discussing books or other media that include this topic.

    While it's true that a lot of women get conditioned to defend the sexual objectification of females ("don't be a prude", "you're just jealous because her boobs are bigger", "what are you, a feminazi?" etc.), I don't think that's the situation in this particular example.

    Over the years, there has been a lot of improvement in the way art portrays this topic, and there are a whole lot of times where it honestly is intregal to the story. It's possible that your female friends are more willing to defend it because they are more tuned in to the distinction between gratuitous and important. And they probably aren't as worried about getting slammed by people like me. :-)

    The biggest distinction between gratuitous and necessary (with any story element, actually) is usually "would the story be the same without out it?" If the author and audience can express specific reasons for the element (to convey the emotional impact of the crime, to explore how a character deals with that kind of trauma, etc.), it's usually not gratuitous. If the only reason for it is "because that's the way it is" or "because I said so", it's probably gratuitous.

    Also, if the story deals an actual historical time period or event, then "because that's the way it was" becomes a valid justification. If you're building a complete fantasy world, that is not a valid justification.

    I think one of the reasons Paizo succeeds so well at this distinction is because their RPGs are actually stories. In old D&D, the "story" was usually "a band of people with no common goals wander through a completely disjointed setting and kill assorted monsters and random NPCs". In that structure, no elements--disturbing or otherwise--are justified. All the elements exist only because the DM thought it would be cool, and that's perfectly fine. Just don't try to dodge the responsibility when a player objects, that's all.

    I guess it all really does come down to "don't be a jerk", doesn't it?


    I'm also a straight guy in a mostly catholic region. But the problem here is backwards from were gorbacz lives. The LGBT society has a much more easier time here. But if anybody sees you with a book with anything remotely looking like the devil that's a different matter.

    Yesterday I went to my doctors appointment with my Rappan Athuck shirt on and I kept wondering my I was getting dirty looks from a person sitting in front of me. When the person started talking about how the devil hides in images I suddenly remembered about the Orcus in front of the shirt. I started laughing hard after that.

    Not doing something you consider normal because you might offend someone is just another form of censorship. Now there is always the common sense clause. I would never put that shirt on for any serious occasion.


    Well, here is my contribution, as I'm running Kingmaker. All my players have killed bandits with enough efficiency that their disturbing backstories have not come to light.

    However, two of the allied male NPCs have both had "women troubles" in their lives. In my game, they have taken solace in each others company. They fight side by side, Theban-like. My players (all male, but with varying outlooks on gender) display an interesting range of reactions, but are generally mature about this and other sexual topics.

    Well, they're mature except for the endless discussion by the one gender bending character about his character's muff. It being cold in the Stolen Lands, and all..

    Osirion

    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Evil Lincoln wrote:
    *oh, btw, the whole above Mamluke scenario works just as well for an Orc in a human society, except you'd want to breed for different ability scores. A Kellid tribe, for instance, may want a strong warrior for a son, in which case a little orc blood would do the trick. None of this holds up with Pathfinder half-orcs, sadly. This is all 3.5 rationale.

    [half-orc tangent]

    That's the premise behind a majority half-orc nation in the Scarred Lands setting. The half-orc children spawned during a back and forth war between humans and orcs turned out to make mighty warriors in service to the humans, and ended up with their own territory at the end of the war. The vast majority of 'half-orcs' in that setting seem to be the product of two half-orc parents.

    Kinda odd that the minds behind Freak Legion and other 'Black Dog' projects came up with one of the least 'ugly backstory' take on half-orcs.

    In Golarion, having the Shoanti be half-orcs, former warrior-slave-mamelukes bred to serve in the armies of the Runelords, would be one way to go with that.
    [/half-orc tangent]

    Andoran

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Drejk wrote:
    Andrea1 wrote:
    Will there be male/male couples in future products?
    Weren't there one or two male/male couples in AP already? I haven't read it but I received such impression from reading comments in various threads.

    There is one in the Rival Guide, another one in Sandpoint from what I hear (and so in book one of RoTRL and Jade regent).


    Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

    continuing 1/2 Orc tangent:
    @Evil Lincoln: Actually, it still works from an Orc viewpoint in Pathfinder. A 0 mod is arguably better than a -1 mod after all. Technically, Pathfinder 1/2 Orcs can be argued to be even better than 3.5 1/2 Orcs in that manner. They have no negative mods after all. There are undoubtedly a number running around with the +2 Str Racial bonus, especially in places like Belkzen. The only ones more prevalent might be all those +2 Con Scarred Witch Doctors.


    Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
    ** spoiler omitted **

    Noted! So the alternative to the "mandatory half-orc rape" is still eugenics! Well, it may still be grim and not-all-that-much-more politically correct, but I think it's cooler from the perspective of brutal fantasy sociology. The fact that it is vaguely systemic and allows for less of a pariah status makes it better from a gameplay standpoint; you can have many half-orcs who are not regarded as complete abominations in this manner. (Still condescended to I'm sure, but not run out of town!)

    Paizo Employee Digital Products Assistant

    Removed a post and reply. Please stay on topic.


    well, the APs include a lot of mature content anyway. sexualized NPCs, nor sexual PCs would be much of a problem. if RotRL has the Graul Family. whom are incestuous hillbilly rapist ogres. i'm sure there isn't much that could produce nearly the same kind of squick. even though it would creep out a lot of players.

    i would like to see interspecies couples such as an Elf and a Tiefling, a Human and a Dwarf, or an Aasimaar and a Sylph. they need not be straight, but i would prefer that these couples be put up for more than just fanservice.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    I'm late jumping in to this but;

    To the OP; When I first read Stolen Lands I picked up what you are alluding to. It's not prevalent through the rest of the AP however.

    I feel like, upon reflection, that it is appropriate to the situations detailed. I'd also like to point out that no rape actually occurs in the active story. It is implied or threatened but not an actual plot device. That's important I think.

    Rape is not about sex, it's about exceeding power over another individual. All of the instances in Stolen Land deal with that element quite well.

    Svetlana isn't raped, but the threat is enough to keep her and Oleg cowed.

    The Bandit leader isn't raped, she instead turns the tables on her attackers and actually becomes the chief bully.

    Akiros never raped the Rosilla. That he was accused is the mechanism that pushes him into the path the leads him to the Stag Lords fort.

    Dovan of Nisroch is a sociopath. Rape is only a minor character defect in the whole that is his overall horrendous character. (I retained him thoughout the next chapter as a recurring bad guy). He is more clearly enamored of torture, which is just as bad but far less likely to trigger a personal memory from a gaming table.
    (Incedentally Dovan came across as a dysfunctional Homosexual to me and I played him as a Baron Harkonin kind of bad guy.)

    As to triggering bad personal memories from game elements:
    We all need to be aware of what goes on in our games. These games are riddled with violence. Most of us have been fortunate to live lives far removed from the visceral horrors that our games emulate. Torture, incest, murder, theft, vandalism, bigotry, human sacrifice and yes rape get introduced regularly into games( one at least in almost every session I've ever participated in ), yet we seem to accept that. If rape is a taboo, why isn't murder or deviltry or any of the rest of it?

    I've been stabbed by a crack-head before. It's not a good memory. Its not one thatd keep me from a table that simulates violence, but I know what's coming. Now being stabbed by a junkie and being raped are differentiated by a vast gulf of degrees. Knowing what's coming is the important element though.

    As to Hook Mountain Massacre or Stolen Lands or anything else that includes rather mature or deviant elements. This is part of being the DM. You occasionally have to be the filter for your group. I found the article on Zon Kuthon far more disturbing than either of the aforementioned AP chapters, yet I can't recall it ever being mentioned by anyone else as difficult reading. The Book of the Damned actually made me feel unclean after a casual reading. My feelings and reaction to these materials dictated what my players would get at the table. This is what a GM DOES, he/she is responsible for moving a story along that is mutually enjoyable for the people who are at table. Determining what the players can and cannot take in is one of the most important jobs the GM has.

    This is one of the many reasons that being a GM is hard.

    FOOTNOTE:
    To the people who are hating on the rape free, gender balanced pirate ship portrayed in The Wormwood Mutiny, that is perfectly believable.

    In our own world, you were MUCH more likely to be sexually assaulted serving on aBritish Military vessel than a pirate ship. One of the great recruiting methods of Carribean Pirates was the whole rape free working environment.
    Pirate ships were fairly egalitarian. They were crewed by sailors that frequently hated the navies they formerly served. One of the big reasons was that rape was used as a punishment. That gets lost on a lot of folks who don't like to dwell on such behaviors. It's also one of the reasons our current navies have such a hang up about homosexuality.

    Oh and pirate ships took in women as sailors. You were 100 times more likely to find a female serving on a pirate ship than on a traditional merchant or naval vessel.

    Just had to defend Paizo on that one. Wormwood Mutiny may not fit with our notions of cut throat pirates but it's closer to history the way it is.

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
    Set wrote:

    In Golarion, having the Shoanti be half-orcs, former warrior-slave-mamelukes bred to serve in the armies of the Runelords, would be one way to go with that.

    [/half-orc tangent]

    The Shoanti are exactly the sort of culture I've always wanted for half-orcs/orcs. Finding out that it's been set up to be as hard as possible to get that culture for half-orc characters was one of the biggest buzzkills in the setting personally, because it's such a perfect match.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    zagnabbit wrote:
    Oh and pirate ships took in women as sailors. You were 100 times more likely to find a female serving on a pirate ship than on a traditional merchant or naval vessel.

    Do you have a source for that statement. If I'm wrong then I'll have happily learned something and will retract most of what I've said up to this point but it seems pretty unlikely to me.

    - Torger

    *edit* no arguement on the stuff about how bad actual navies were.

    Qadira

    thejeff wrote:
    There's a difference between offended and triggering a flashback to trauma.

    Where do you draw the line on that? What about a veteran being uncomfortable with sneak attacks and anything in the jungle? What about the female player that complains about attacking any female villain as "just more violence against women". Victims of religious persecution not being comfortable with any religious fighting or the very religious not being comfortable with talk of other religions? If ones person's truama is important then all are. Not just rape.

    Silver Crusade

    4 people marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
    Andrew R wrote:

    thejeff wrote:

    There's a difference between offended and triggering a flashback to trauma.

    Where do you draw the line on that?

    You don't. All you can do is have empathy for others and be considerate if you want to play with people that have their own trigger issues. There isn't an absolute line dictating what you can and cannot have in your game. That is a more fluid thing influenced by those with whom you wish to play the game.

    And you can only find the safe boundries for your group by talking with them.

    Hell, some groups even use safewords if their campaigns dip into dark territory. Pretty good idea, that.

    Silver Crusade

    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

    Yep, talking about safe boundaries is always important. You really gotta be prepared when one person in your group has a panic fear of clowns and one other has a clown sexual fetish...


    I'd think the fetish would come up more when you play something like FATAL (as if anyone actually plays that) rather than in Pathfinder, where usually the main point is stabbing Evil things in the face. And as good an idea as talking with the group is, it's a fact that not all people who have had traumatic experiences are going to advertise said fact or tell anyone about it, even to their closest friends. It doesn't apply to everyone, but it certainly can make things more difficult.

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
    Gorbacz wrote:
    Yep, talking about safe boundaries is always important. You really gotta be prepared when one person in your group has a panic fear of clowns and one other has a clown sexual fetish...

    NOT EVEN AS A JOKE

    jesters don't count, those are classy

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

    Jesters are smooth. Totally.


    5 people marked this as a favorite.
    Gorbacz wrote:
    Yep, talking about safe boundaries is always important. You really gotta be prepared when one person in your group has a panic fear of clowns and one other has a clown sexual fetish...

    This sounds like the premise of an Adam Sandler romantic film.

    RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

    Mikaze wrote:
    Andrew R wrote:

    thejeff wrote:

    There's a difference between offended and triggering a flashback to trauma.

    Where do you draw the line on that?

    You don't. All you can do is have empathy for others and be considerate if you want to play with people that have their own trigger issues. There isn't an absolute line dictating what you can and cannot have in your game. That is a more fluid thing influenced by those with whom you wish to play the game.

    And you can only find the safe boundries for your group by talking with them.

    Hell, some groups even use safewords if their campaigns dip into dark territory. Pretty good idea, that.

    (But, sometimes it is the GM who needs the safeword ...)

    Qadira

    It might not hurt to put a warning on the mods and AP that are going to be dark so folks have an idea what they are dealing with and the group can decide but that should never stop the writers from making what they want


    Torger Miltenberger wrote:
    zagnabbit wrote:
    Oh and pirate ships took in women as sailors. You were 100 times more likely to find a female serving on a pirate ship than on a traditional merchant or naval vessel.

    Do you have a source for that statement. If I'm wrong then I'll have happily learned something and will retract most of what I've said up to this point but it seems pretty unlikely to me.

    - Torger

    *edit* no arguement on the stuff about how bad actual navies were.

    Google -> "women pirates"

    Also note that the significant folklore that augments the historical fact is totally fair game for RPG writers.

    Paizo Employee Senior Editor/Fiction Editor

    5 people marked this as a favorite.

    Looks like there's been a lot going on in here, but I just wanted to drop in and speak to the male/male couples angle: There have been a fair number of gay men depicted in the various APs, as mentioned, but if you're looking for more, there are a ton of gay men (and several whole gay male organizations) in City of Strangers, a gay main character in City of the Fallen Sky, and a married male couple as main characters in an upcoming (but not yet announced) Pathfinder Tales novel.

    Also, though nobody's asked about it yet, we've got a few trans characters scattered around the place as well, such as in the NPC Codex (p. 15), Miss Feathers in the PFS Scenarios (making a reappearance next month!), and others. And the Triaxan Battleflowers show up in the Reign of Winter AP, which are originally from Distant Worlds and are ritual warriors who choose to be seen as totally genderless by their society.

    In short--we really are making an effort to write as diversely as we can. While it looks like none of us have a cohesive list of characters of different sexualities (though anyone who wants to compile one could do so on the Pathfinderwiki!), I like to think that the fact that we all immediately thought of different examples is a good sign. After all, including characters of all races, genders, sexualities, etc. isn't just about being inclusive--it's part of the fun! Why would you restrict yourself to just a few colors when you can paint with the whole palette?


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Evil Lincoln wrote:


    Google -> "women pirates"

    Also note that the significant folklore that augments the historical fact is totally fair game for RPG writers.

    ok reading that article i get the following

    - Female Pirates existed
    - They were highly unusual
    - Many had to pretend to be men to make it work

    Ok, but I'm not seeing anything making me believe that it was a sexualy safe working environment.

    - Torger

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
    James Sutter wrote:

    And the Triaxan Battleflowers show up in the Reign of Winter AP, which are originally from Distant Worlds and are ritual warriors who choose to be seen as totally genderless by their society.

    Oh wow. Would that bald half-elf-looking Triaxan happen to be one of those as an example? (I'm not near my copy at the moment)

    I'm really excited considering this sounds like we'll be getting a good bit of cultural detail for Triaxus. :D

    101 to 150 of 195 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
    Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder Adventure Path / General Discussion / Discussion and Analysis of Sex and Female Characters in Paizo's APs All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.

    ©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.