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Misapplied QFP Boons, and other Illegal Aspects Noticed as a Player


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Sczarni **

Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Midnight_Angel wrote:

Ah, the much-loved rule of 'you must be within one alignment step to the deity you worship'.

Yeah. Does someone have an idea how I should explain that to our (CG) wizard worshipping Nethys? As in, the god of, well, magic?

I'd recommend directing them to that rule and let the player come up with a solution; be it changing alignment or patron deity.

EDIT: Perhaps point him at Qi Zhong if he wants to stay CG and worship a God of Magic.

Silver Crusade **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber

If you allow paladins of illegal deities then you are allowing people to break the rules. At that point you might as well open up all the ARG races and synthesist summoners.

*

Midnight_Angel wrote:

Ah, the much-loved rule of 'you must be within one alignment step to the deity you worship'.

Yeah. Does someone have an idea how I should explain that to our (CG) wizard worshipping Nethys? As in, the god of, well, magic?

Does not matter since he is not a divine spellcaster. It is purely fluff.

Sczarni **

Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Saint Caleth wrote:
Midnight_Angel wrote:

Ah, the much-loved rule of 'you must be within one alignment step to the deity you worship'.

Yeah. Does someone have an idea how I should explain that to our (CG) wizard worshipping Nethys? As in, the god of, well, magic?
Does not matter since he is not a divine spellcaster. It is purely fluff.

True, unless that character wants to make use of the extra abilities on something like the Spellsight Bracers, at which point they'd need to be within one step.

EDIT: Except for the fact that it's pretty clearly stated in the guide.

Guide to PFS Organized Play:
Religion: Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource. Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. For clerics, this is an especially important choice, since the deity’s alignment determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision with significant tactical implications for the cleric and her allies. Characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.

Bolding mine. A character must be within one step of their deity should they choose to worship one, which is especially important for clerics (and paladins).

*

Jack-of-Blades wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:
Midnight_Angel wrote:

Ah, the much-loved rule of 'you must be within one alignment step to the deity you worship'.

Yeah. Does someone have an idea how I should explain that to our (CG) wizard worshipping Nethys? As in, the god of, well, magic?
Does not matter since he is not a divine spellcaster. It is purely fluff.
True, unless that character wants to make use of the extra abilities on something like the Spellsight Bracers, at which point they'd need to be within one step.

Yea, I know. I thoight of that right after I posted. In that case the wizard can just replace the G in his alignment with N and not really change his character's personality since there is plenty of leeway in alignments. 99% of the time you don't need to care what alignment is written on a character's sheet, and for such a minor thing as this I wouldn't care really.

The point is that it is a stupid rule for anyone who is not a divine spellcaster.

Sczarni **

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Saint Caleth wrote:

Yea, I know. I thoight of that right after I posted. In that case the wizard can just replace the G in his alignment with N and not really change his character's personality since there is plenty of leeway in alignments. 99% of the time you don't need to care what alignment is written on a character's sheet, and for such a minor thing as this I wouldn't care really.

The point is that it is a stupid rule for anyone who is not a divine spellcaster.

Stupid rule or no, it is a rule. And while I'll agree that most of the time players play their characters alignments correctly, if I had a LG Pally selling off the Druid's animal companion, setting a building aflame, then running from the law, I'd have a problem.

And before you go on with the snipes at me being ridiculous or stupid, a Paladin in my gaming area DID THIS. Not kidding. The rules exist for a reason.

*

A paladin going completely a&$%#~* is kind of beyond the scope of this discussion. I've seen paladins go nuts before too.

Sczarni **

Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Saint Caleth wrote:
A paladin going completely a$~~*$* is kind of beyond the scope of this discussion. I've seen paladins go nuts before too.

Perhaps, but the more we bend the rules to allow significant divergences, the more we open ourselves to having to put up with stuff like this being more and more acceptable.

Example:
A Paladin who worships a CG God of freedom goes up against a group of slavers. The slavers surrender once their leadership goes down. The Paladin, knowing that Good is more important than Law and that these men will get off free of charge if they go to trial, slits their throats while the slavers are bound and helpless. "It's in the interest of the greater good," they say in their defense, "These men would only go back out and start up this vile slavery as soon as we turn them over."

So. Has the Paladin committed an alignment infraction since they've denied the law its due course, or are they totally fine because it was the "Good" thing to do?

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Two questions.

1) In PFS, can Paladins worship a concept?

2) If 1 is correct, why can't they just see their concept embodied in a deity?

So our Paladin of Caylian can be devoted to freedom and liberty, making sure others don't twist the laws to their advantage and the laws are enforced fairly, and pay her respects to the big C as the embodiement of that concept?

To use another example. The heretic archtype for Inquisitors is allowed. Dexios is a heretic because he believes Shizuru and Saranae are the same deity. Since the ISWG doesn't say they are, should Dex be banned from the table? Should he lose his powers? He still follows Shizuru, but sees followers of Saranae as brothers, and will try to 'enlighten' them.

I had a player ask if his fighter could worship a made up deity (no, not Banjo). I pointed out to him that said deity didn't exist, and as long as he didn't plan to take levels in cleric/inquisitor and expect powers from said deity, I didn't see a problem with it.

Andoran *****

Saint Caleth wrote:

Paladins don't mechanically need a deity though to grant them their divine abilities like clerics and inquisitors do. I would still let it slide, especially if the character is well RP'd.

Would it make you happier if they just play a paladin, don't mention any deity and just RP a concern with the portfolio of the CG deity that they want to base their character around? I find it to be a meaningless distinction between that and just letting the player have fun.

But it is not just fluff.

There are mechanical benefits to worshiping a particular deity.

Some spells only work on those who worship the same deity as the caster.

There are traits you can only take if you worship a particular deity.

That player may be treating it as fluff, but if you allow that player to break the rules, then it opens the door for others who would break the rules for mechanical benefits.

*****

Matthew Morris wrote:

Two questions.

1) In PFS, can Paladins worship a concept?

No. As stated in the Guide quoted above. This is the crux of the argument, folks. Mark has explicitly stated that all divine characters need to have a God and must be within one step of their deity.

*

Nani Pratt wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Two questions.

1) In PFS, can Paladins worship a concept?

No. As stated in the Guide quoted above. This is the crux of the argument, folks. Mark has explicitly stated that all divine characters need to have a God and must be within one step of their deity.

I don't think so. All of the quotes on this subject are about Clerics and Inquisitors. This restriction from the RAW makes sense in the context of Golarion (the existence of Razmir, the retconning away of the Godclaw and pantheist elven clerics etc, etc).

Oracles explicitly don't receive their power from a god, and therefore do not need a god. The iconic oracle is an atheist from Rahadoum. Paladins likewise do not receive their divine power from a specific god and by analogy should not need a deity.

So a restriction of this nature oracles and paladins directly contravenes both RAW and Golarion lore. Now I might have missed the PFS specific rule from Mike about this, but I don't think that I did.

*

Jack-of-Blades wrote:


Bolding mine. A character must be within one step of their deity should they choose to worship one, which is especially important for clerics (and paladins).

Except that Paladins DON'T have the text that says they must follow a deity within one step of their own alignment in their class. Inquisitors and Clerics do.

It is the guide to organized play that imposes this. And like I said, I am always up front about this and present the following:

A) I get no mechanical bonuses for this. The character is Lawful Good and goes out of the way to heal and stabilize downed opponents so they can be taken prisoner when it's possible to do so.
B) The character's ongoing backstory makes her more interesting for me to play, and generally seems to make her more interesting for other people to play with.

If the GM is uncomfortable with this, I will play a different character in tier, or I will downplay the character's religious affiliation.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Direct quote from the 4.2 guide

PFGTOP 4.2 wrote:
Religion: Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource. Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. For clerics, this is an especially important choice, since the deity’s alignment determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision with significant tactical implications for the cleric and her allies. Characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.

1. Paladin or no, you MUST be within one alignment step by the guide's rules IF you choose to worship a deity.

2. Paladins (by RAW) do not receive their powers from a divine source so may have no deity and instead adhere to an ideal.

Nani, you mention a post by Mark, can you link it? I know I have heard from a few people that Paladins must have a deity in PFS (which mine has, by choice) but I have never found evidence to that. Not in the guide or FAQ. If M&M said it somewhere I'd love to know so I can Favorite it.

My 2cp on this conversation: Having to be LG and having to adhere to a code is parts of the limitations of the Paladin class. I do have a problem with a Paladin of Pharasma, as she does not have any Paladins. A LG person should have some problems with her ideals.

However, you don't have to have the Paladin class to be a "paladin of Pharasma". I think a very interesting concept would be a Fighter who calls himself a Paladin of Pharasma, and roleplays as such. I could have a LN Fighter who calls himself a Paladin of Asmodeous. But if I have levels of the Paladin class, I'm LG and abide by the class mechanics, which include their code.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

My issue with the section you quoted CRobledo is a lawful good swashbuckler/privateer, can't worship Cayden in PFS. A rogue who is chaotic neutral but wants to find a man and settle down can't worship Erastil. A lawful neutral fighter who wants to master all the fighting arts of war can't worship Gorum. A lawful good wizard can't honor Pharasma for her orderly and fair treatment of the dead, etc etc.

Clerics (and Inquisitors) who embody/channel the tennants of their specific god would have to be someone compatible (one step) but a Paladin who believes that the laws of the world should be followed fairly, as in the Boneyard, should still be able to honour her.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

AdAstra Games,

If you wanted to bring a Pharasmite paladin to my table, this is what I'd ask:

"As I understand her, Pharasma is the goodess of death. Let's say you find yourself in a village where some humble and industrious townsfolk are suffering from a terrible disease, and they're going to die of it within a day or two. They include a young newly-wed couple, and some teenagers. Evidence suggests that cultists of Urgathoa have strewn poisonous spores through the fields.

"You're a paladin, come into town, with the ability to cure their illness, but the local Pharasman priest tells you that it's the will of the Lady of Graves for death to claim these mortal souls.

"How would you respond?"

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

So I think the issue here is the difference between worship and being a follower of.

Worshipers go to services, think the god is kind of neat, and go about their lives. For example, the non-evil populace of Cheliax who goes to Asmodean temples by default but generally act in a Neutral way.

Followers get the mechanical benefits, i.e. the various wondrous items with two-stage benefits or restricted-to-followers spells.

A paladin *might* be able to be the first but could clearly not be the second, for a non LG god.

If there's a citation for the paladins must have a god rule (I don't remember *seeing* such a post but it might be around somewhere, and would arguably apply to druids and rangers as well as they are divine casters...), i'd love to see it as well.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Matthew Morris wrote:

My issue with the section you quoted CRobledo is a lawful good swashbuckler/privateer, can't worship Cayden in PFS. A rogue who is chaotic neutral but wants to find a man and settle down can't worship Erastil. A lawful neutral fighter who wants to master all the fighting arts of war can't worship Gorum. A lawful good wizard can't honor Pharasma for her orderly and fair treatment of the dead, etc etc.

Clerics (and Inquisitors) who embody/channel the tennants of their specific god would have to be someone compatible (one step) but a Paladin who believes that the laws of the world should be followed fairly, as in the Boneyard, should still be able to honour her.

But that's what I'm saying. In Golarion, a LG swashbuckler should NOT want to worship Cayden. Cayden's views should not appeal to this person. Cayden is too Chaotic for him. Same with your other examples. A Lawful Neural Fighter can be a master of fighting arts without having to worship Gorum. Heck, he can even respect him and SOME of his tenants without worshiping him.

As for your Paladin example, Chris said it perfectly.

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Nani Pratt wrote:
No. As stated in the Guide quoted above. This is the crux of the argument, folks. Mark has explicitly stated that all divine characters need to have a God and must be within one step of their deity.

Sorry to correct you Nani, But even in PFS only Clerics and Inquisitors need to pick a God.

That said Paladin, Druids, Rangers and Oracles can pick gods as well and if they do they must be within one step of their deity, the same goes for any PC that picks a God in PFS.

On Paladins, Pazio made the conscious decision to link Paladins with certain Deities only in their world of Golarion, though still leave it open for Paladins not do follow a specific deity if they wanted.

PFS uses the world of Golarion for their setting, and bases everything they write and the information that is allowed for and by PFS players from that information.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Chris Mortika wrote:

AdAstra Games,

If you wanted to bring a Pharasmite paladin to my table, this is what I'd ask:

"As I understand her, Pharasma is the goodess of death. Let's say you find yourself in a village where some humble and industrious townsfolk are suffering from a terrible disease, and they're going to die of it within a day or two. They include a young newly-wed couple, and some teenagers. Evidence suggests that cultists of Urgathoa have strewn poisonous spores through the fields.

"You're a paladin, come into town, with the ability to cure their illness, but the local Pharasman priest tells you that it's the will of the Lady of Graves for death to claim these mortal souls.

"How would you respond?"

Hope you don't mind if I take a shot at this.

Behead the clearly false cleric and heal the people! :-)

Seriously it's a good quandry. I find myself thinking of Wee Jas here, in that helping the dying and their families come to terms with their deaths is the lawful part (the circle of life and all that) and hunting down the followers of Urgathoa and smiting them would be the good part.

Now the flaw I can see in your example is that Urgathoa's followers are deliberately poisoning the fields. So healing them is countering an evil act. (Pharasma being neutral shouldn't have an issue with good countering evil. Stopping the BBEG from blowing up Golarion likewise would keep the boneyard flowing at its normal rate, a lawful act.) A better example might be if they had a well with Arsenic in it or something completely natural.

Qadira **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
AdAstraGames wrote:

I will note that I play a Paladin of Pharasma in PFS, and I am courteous enough to do this at a table:

"Hi, I have a Paladin of Pharasma. Paladins do not have the block of text saying they have to follow a deity within one alignment step of theirs in the class description, and when I made the character, this was an undefined area. It is also a large part of why she adventures, and it drives a lot of her roleplaying in fun and interesting ways.

It is also, technically, not permitted since the Inner Sea World Guide was published, because that defines, specifically, which deities empower Paladins on Golarion.

I would like to play the character as I have, because she's fun to play and thought provoking, and it makes no mechanical difference. I can also swap her out with another character who's within tier, if that's a problem for you or anyone else at the table, or I can play her as a Paladin and not mention which deity she follows.

I will abide by whatever you suggest."

I also know someone with this exact problem. Except it wasn't undefined when he made his character. We actually asked and were told by Joshua Frost, who was the head of the campaign at the time, that it was legal. He's now 12th level and it's a real problem to have to up and change the entire concept of your character at 12th level....

Qadira **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Saint Caleth wrote:
Midnight_Angel wrote:

Ah, the much-loved rule of 'you must be within one alignment step to the deity you worship'.

Yeah. Does someone have an idea how I should explain that to our (CG) wizard worshipping Nethys? As in, the god of, well, magic?
Does not matter since he is not a divine spellcaster. It is purely fluff.

It matters in PFS because EVERY character must be within one step in alignment from their deity.

*

Chris Mortika wrote:

AdAstra Games,

If you wanted to bring a Pharasmite paladin to my table, this is what I'd ask:

"As I understand her, Pharasma is the goodess of death. Let's say you find yourself in a village where some humble and industrious townsfolk are suffering from a terrible disease, and they're going to die of it within a day or two. They include a young newly-wed couple, and some teenagers. Evidence suggests that cultists of Urgathoa have strewn poisonous spores through the fields.

"You're a paladin, come into town, with the ability to cure their illness, but the local Pharasman priest tells you that it's the will of the Lady of Graves for death to claim these mortal souls.

"How would you respond?"

I would say. "With all due respect, you are wrong. This plague is not natural. How can it be the will of the Lady of Graves to let the foul minions of Urgathoa spread their pestilence?"

Just because a paladin is Lawful does not mean that he has to follow orders given by people who do not have all the information that he has. I would assume that the senior priest was unaware of the cultist's involvement. Since Urgathoa is an enemy of Pharasma, I would strike against her cult and undo their works. Then if it turned out that the cleric had all the information and was correct, I would accept the consequences of my action and whatever atonement I am assigned.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Saint Caleth wrote:

I would say. "With all due respect, you are wrong. This plague is not natural. How can it be the will of the Lady of Graves to let the foul minions of Urgathoa spread their pestilence?"

Just because a paladin is Lawful does not mean that he has to follow orders given by people who do not have all the information that he has.

Ok, assume the Urgathoa line wasn't there. The disease is natural.

*

CRobledo wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:

I would say. "With all due respect, you are wrong. This plague is not natural. How can it be the will of the Lady of Graves to let the foul minions of Urgathoa spread their pestilence?"

Just because a paladin is Lawful does not mean that he has to follow orders given by people who do not have all the information that he has.

Ok, assume the Urgathoa line wasn't there. The disease is natural.

I'd probably heal them and then go seek atonement for the somewhat chaotic good act of ignoring the cleric.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

3 people marked this as a favorite.

"Returning all the respect you are due, I have heard Pharasma's wisdom, and I am not wrong in this. All mortals die. It is her will that these folk die here and now. Their bodies will not rise, and the disease will not spread. It may not be 'right', but it is 'fair'."

This dilemma is the scenario James Jacobs laid out in his argument against Pharasman paladins. As paladins, they ought to have a problem letting innocents such as these die.

If your paladin would go against the village priest, just on general principles, he is a true paladin, but no true servant of the Lady of Graves.

*

CRobledo wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

My issue with the section you quoted CRobledo is a lawful good swashbuckler/privateer, can't worship Cayden in PFS. A rogue who is chaotic neutral but wants to find a man and settle down can't worship Erastil. A lawful neutral fighter who wants to master all the fighting arts of war can't worship Gorum. A lawful good wizard can't honor Pharasma for her orderly and fair treatment of the dead, etc etc.

Clerics (and Inquisitors) who embody/channel the tennants of their specific god would have to be someone compatible (one step) but a Paladin who believes that the laws of the world should be followed fairly, as in the Boneyard, should still be able to honour her.

But that's what I'm saying. In Golarion, a LG swashbuckler should NOT want to worship Cayden. Cayden's views should not appeal to this person. Cayden is too Chaotic for him. Same with your other examples. A Lawful Neural Fighter can be a master of fighting arts without having to worship Gorum. Heck, he can even respect him and SOME of his tenants without worshiping him.

As for your Paladin example, Chris said it perfectly.

That is complete nonsense. Why do you see alignment as such a strieghtjacket, because it is far more mutable than you make it seem.

A Lawful swashbuckler can absolutely venerate Cayden as an enduring symbol of itinerant do-gooding. Or even pray to Cayden for a good mug of ale at the end of an adventure. He would worship Cayden and try to make sure that wherever he went he drank at the temple/taverns of Cayden so that he knew that his money was then going to a good cause.

A fighter can worship the embodiment of battle no matter what his alignment. He would preferentially seek out the blessing of priests of Gorum and always try to have them at his side in battle. He would buy the holy oil to polish his armor, or whatever a follower of Gorum does as an act of worship on a daily basis.

**

Nani Pratt wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Two questions.

1) In PFS, can Paladins worship a concept?

No. As stated in the Guide quoted above. This is the crux of the argument, folks. Mark has explicitly stated that all divine characters need to have a God and must be within one step of their deity.

This goes directly against Paizo, as Cayden Callen is called out in the Faiths of Purity as a diety with paladins. They even give the paladin's code for Cayden

*

Chris Mortika wrote:

"Returning all the respect you are due, I have heard Pharasma's wisdom, and I am not wrong in this. All mortals die. It is her will that these folk die here and now. Their bodies will not rise, and the disease will not spread. It may not be 'right', but it is 'fair'."

This dilemma is the scenario James Jacobs laid out in his argument against Pharasman paladins. As paladins, they ought to have a problem letting innocents such as these die.

If your paladin would go against the village priest, just on general principles, he is a true paladin, but no true servant of the Lady of Graves.

I think that a perfectly appropriate human failing for a paladin is the small measure of arrogance required to devalue the judgement of a provincial village priest over the judgement of a holy warrior such as himself who has fallen upon countless undead abominations and those who would raise them with the righteous fury of the Lady of Graves, restoring the proper balance to the world.

That measure of arrogance is exactly why he would need an atonement in the end.

*

Chris Mortika wrote:

AdAstra Games,

If you wanted to bring a Pharasmite paladin to my table, this is what I'd ask:

"As I understand her, Pharasma is the goodess of death. Let's say you find yourself in a village where some humble and industrious townsfolk are suffering from a terrible disease, and they're going to die of it within a day or two. They include a young newly-wed couple, and some teenagers. Evidence suggests that cultists of Urgathoa have strewn poisonous spores through the fields.

"You're a paladin, come into town, with the ability to cure their illness, but the local Pharasman priest tells you that it's the will of the Lady of Graves for death to claim these mortal souls.

"How would you respond?"

I would respond thusly:

"If it is Her will that it is their time to be taken to the Boneyard, then my curatives will have no effect, and so shall it be. I do not presume to know Her will in all matters of life and death, and know that there are many who seek to spread suffering and pain; I wish to rule out the possibility that this illness is inflicted by priests of Urgathoa. Please do your best to keep them alive while I resolve this matter. If they pass before I can do so, please comfort them, and their families by the traditions of our faith."

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Saint Caleth wrote:
CRobledo wrote:


But that's what I'm saying. In Golarion, a LG swashbuckler should NOT want to worship Cayden. Cayden's views should not appeal to this person. Cayden is too Chaotic for him. Same with your other examples. A Lawful Neural Fighter can be a master of fighting arts without having to worship Gorum. Heck, he can even respect him and SOME of his tenants without worshiping him.

As for your Paladin example, Chris said it perfectly.

That is complete nonsense. Why do you see alignment as such a strieghtjacket, because it is far more mutable than you make it seem.

But on your side of the coin, then why even have an alignment axis at all. Rules are there for a reason, good or bad.

Now don't get me wrong. I'd LOVE if Paladins of Asmodeus were allowed. But they are not. If you want Paladins of Pharasma in your home game great! I'd probably even allow them in my own. But PFS rules are what it is.

Andoran *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Furious Kender wrote:
This goes directly against Paizo, as Cayden Callen is called out in the Faiths of Purity? as a diety with paladins. They even give the paladin's code for Cayden

Furious you need to re read Faith's of Purity. Yes Cayden is in the book but he is called out as not having Paladins because they are too focused, and the only Deities in that book that get a Paladin Code are Erastil, Iomedae, Sarenrae, Shelyn and Torag.

*

Alignment exists as a legacy from the history of the game, and also because within the setting there exist things (mostly outsiders and divine spells) that are literally made of Good or Evil or Law or Chaos. In that case, the alignment descriptors help delineate power that the divine power granted by certain gods cannot accomplish.

Mortals are not alignment subtyped, and therefore the fundamental forces of alignment are mixed in them, giving them free will, including the ability to have character contradictions like being lawful and still worshiping Cayden.

It does not exist to be a strieghtjacket on people's RP.

Taldor ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber
Furious Kender wrote:
Nani Pratt wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Two questions.

1) In PFS, can Paladins worship a concept?

No. As stated in the Guide quoted above. This is the crux of the argument, folks. Mark has explicitly stated that all divine characters need to have a God and must be within one step of their deity.
This goes directly against Paizo, as Cayden Callen is called out in the Faiths of Purity? as a diety with paladins. They even give the paladin's code for Cayden

I'd check that again. Cayden has no paladins in the Faiths lines... It's Erastil, Sarenrae, Sheyln, and Torag in Faiths of Purity.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Furious Kender wrote:
This goes directly against Paizo, as Cayden Callen is called out in the Faiths of Purity as a diety with paladins. They even give the paladin's code for Cayden.

Paladin codes are on pages 26-27. Erastil. Iomedae. Sarenrae. Shelyn. Torag.

The church of the Lucky Drunk is described on pages 4-5. "If you follow Cayden Cailean, you’re more likely than not to be in the company of bards, barbarians, fighters, and rogues, with the occasional druid, sorcerer, or wizard: these are the professions that allow more creativity, more freedom, and more self-expression than the structured, confined, or less imaginative classes. Clerics can often be too focused, and pass up the enjoyment of this life in favor of success in the next. Rangers are frequently too driven by their particular missions, and paladins, inquisitors, and monks are too focused."

EDIT: Dragnmoon and Sniggevert, you're faster men than I.

*

In the instance of it being a natural disease, and with no clues of other agency, she would ask that the priest prepare an augury in her presence, and attempt to change his mind via Diplomacy...but without direct evidence of action by evil agency, she would not use her Mercy to remove disease without being asked by someone else in the community.

And I would be perfectly fine with seeking out an atonement afterwards.

The nature of Law means you obey the proper authorities; that does not mean unthinking automaton-like obedience. It means you can ask questions and make sure the Law is being used to promote the proper good.

The nature of Good means that it has to be a choice; not just for the Paladin, but for the people she helps. The reason she spares her foes isn't the fear of having to atone later. It is because she does not wish to presume upon her deity's purview of deciding when someone's time to die is if she can help it, and because if you spare someone's life and explain that Good is a choice, and it's about making the choices that improve the lives of those around you, and strengthening communities, it's a message that might actually take.

Note that the nature of PFS scenarios makes this quandary unlikely to come up...but it is one I've considered.

Silver Crusade *

Ah, yes the paladins. Inspiring geek fights since the 1970s. I really miss the holy liberator from 3.X. Bring back the holy liberator!

**

Sniggevert wrote:
Furious Kender wrote:
Nani Pratt wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Two questions.

1) In PFS, can Paladins worship a concept?

No. As stated in the Guide quoted above. This is the crux of the argument, folks. Mark has explicitly stated that all divine characters need to have a God and must be within one step of their deity.
This goes directly against Paizo, as Cayden Callen is called out in the Faiths of Purity? as a diety with paladins. They even give the paladin's code for Cayden
I'd check that again. Cayden has no paladins in the Faiths lines... It's Erastil, Sarenrae, Sheyln, and Torag in Faiths of Purity.

That's what I get from posting at work.....

Andoran ***

3 people marked this as a favorite.
AdAstraGames wrote:

I will note that I play a Paladin of Pharasma in PFS, and I am courteous enough to do this at a table:

"Hi, I have a Paladin of Pharasma. Paladins do not have the block of text saying they have to follow a deity within one alignment step of theirs in the class description, and when I made the character, this was an undefined area. It is also a large part of why she adventures, and it drives a lot of her roleplaying in fun and interesting ways.

It is also, technically, not permitted since the Inner Sea World Guide was published, because that defines, specifically, which deities empower Paladins on Golarion.

I would like to play the character as I have, because she's fun to play and thought provoking, and it makes no mechanical difference. I can also swap her out with another character who's within tier, if that's a problem for you or anyone else at the table, or I can play her as a Paladin and not mention which deity she follows.

I will abide by whatever you suggest."

My response, as a PFS GM, would be to make a couple of suggestions that would leave the flavor of your Paladin alone, while making him/her completely legal.

"Hi, I have a Paladin who does not worship any deity, but has a philosophy which is similar to that espoused by the church of Pharasma. Now, as a Paladin, I cannot be a worshipper of Pharasma, however, even as a Paladin I can revere the philospophy of the Pharasman Church & pay my respects to Pharasma."

Note that this leaves your character, in essence, unchanged, while making him completely PFS legal, and removing the possibility of the cheats mentioned during this thread where, asd a self-proclaimed Paladin of Pharasma, you could get the benefits from items that give a worshipper of Pharasma extra abilities.

This can, similarly, be applied to any PFS character who has a resonance with a deity that they are not, PFS legally, allowed to worship.

Do it right, and all you do is get rid of the illegal parts of the character, where you might be able to gain a mechanical benefit that you shouldn't be gaining, while retaining the spirit of the character within the letter of the rules.

*

I like that idea, but now the same people are claiming that you cannot have a paladin of a cause in PFS.

I do kind of feel that it is a meaningless destinction between paladin of Pharasma and paladin following the cause of the Church of Pharasma.

**

Paladins tend to all be generic with variations largely coming from whether they have int 7 or 10, or int and wisdom 7. However, I've played with a Paladin of Caylen and a Paladin Hellknight of Asmodeous. They were fun and memorable.

Also, most people tend to play paladins as lawful stupid, which is lawful neutral with some random copper pieces for beggars to simulate the good.

*

Again, my solution is to ask the table if it's a problem, and if it is, play a different character of the same level and niche.

I'm not in a race to get her to retirement. I'm in this to get the largest number of interesting scenarios where she gets to roleplay in interesting ways, rather than be Yet Another Holy Killing Machine (YAHKMa). Depending on what other characters are at the table, I'll pick one of my alts to avoid trampling their niche, or because playing the serious, philosophical paladin at a table where every character has a pun for the name doesn't appeal to me.

I'm playing for the experience, not the experience points. I've got other characters that I play for the Skinner Treadmill Rat-Pellet Power Boost.

While her planned build includes a dip into Shadowdancer, even if I go far enough in the class to get the shadow companion, she will never use the ability outside of dire circumstances.

It's undead. Even if it's a lawful good bound undead that can't spawn, sent to help her in her aims, it's still undead. Unless Pharasma herself said it was OK with a vision, using that ability means she atones afterwards.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Saint Caleth wrote:

I like that idea, but now the same people are claiming that you cannot have a paladin of a cause in PFS.

I do kind of feel that it is a meaningless destinction between paladin of Pharasma and paladin following the cause of the Church of Pharasma.

Depends on who you ask. The Burners claim to worship Saranae, but don't seem to follow her tennants.

In Death's Heretic:

Spoiler:
PHarasma seems to take a very round-about way to get one of her clerics who has done various doctrine breaking things, and still didn't get his spells taken away

Unless the clerics do a 'dial-a-prayer' commune and ask for you, your Paladin could very well believe that his lawful good self is following the Lady of Grave's tennants, and be lawful good, and the clerics are wrong. How do you know they're wrong? You have your Paladin abilities, right? So they have to be wrong. If they were right and your worship of her is false, then you're a fighter w/o bonus feats. :-)

Why do the clerics still have their spells if they're wrong? Well she's merciful (see the spoiler above.)

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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AdAstra Games, I guess I'm a little concerned. What would you think about someone who knew that a Synthesist summoner was against the campaign rules, and would go around asking GMs to play his synthesist PC until he found a GM or two who hadn't heard about the rule and would let him?

You're saying "This character is illegal. If you won't let me play her, that's cool; I'll do so somewhere else."

Of course, a judge's authority only extends as far as his session, so a GM who tells you that the Paladin of Pharasma is illegal can't enforce that at another table. But when I tell a player "Your character has too many feats," I mean to say that he should fix that before playing at anybody else's table.

*

Because, Chris, I make it very clear that I get no mechanical benefits from doing this. I don't take any of the items that grant special abilities to Pharasman worshippers to avoid getting a mechanical benefit that's not allowed by the rules of the game.

*****

AdAstraGames wrote:

Because, Chris, I make it very clear that I get no mechanical benefits from doing this. I don't take any of the items that grant special abilities to Pharasman worshippers to avoid getting a mechanical benefit that's not allowed by the rules of the game.

What would you suggest a GM do if there was a scenario with an altar of Pharasma that said "A follower of Pharasma who touches the altar gains the benefit of a bless spell for one hour. Otherwise the altar has no effect." Kinevon's fix above would make the answer clear.

I've seen scenarios with similar mechanics for other deities, though I admit not for Pharasma yet. Consider if you play the scenario in Cayden's Feasthall with a paladin of Cayden. I haven't seen that one, but it may have effects on Cayden characters.

*

I would say that by RAW, I don't get the benefit. If the GM has leeway to do RAI (he doesn't, it's OrgPlay, but some GMs roll with the "rule of cool"), then I might - but my expectation as a player is this:

If a scenario says I get a benefit for being a follower of Pharasma (or another deity that has Paladins), I don't get it. And I'm fine with that.

It does seem rather unlikely to come up, given there are about 15-20 deities that PFS characters can follow, that this is going to come up in play, or if it does, that it's going to be a major, scenario destroying benefit.

Andoran *****

AdAstraGames wrote:

Because, Chris, I make it very clear that I get no mechanical benefits from doing this. I don't take any of the items that grant special abilities to Pharasman worshippers to avoid getting a mechanical benefit that's not allowed by the rules of the game.

It is a sticky conundrum for many when put in a position of wanting to follow the rules, and a player asking for cool roleplay.

I actually feel its kinda selfish of you to put a GM in that position.

You know what the PFS rule is. You know what the Pathfinder RPG rule is.

You are making an informed decision to not follow the rule, and then you purposefully put your GM in a difficult position.

That isn't particularly fair.

If I ran into someone who did this to me, I might be tempted to disinvite them from my table. Not for having something that broke the rule, but for purposefully putting me in a socially awkward position.

*****

AdAstraGames wrote:

I would say that by RAW, I don't get the benefit. If the GM has leeway to do RAI (he doesn't, it's OrgPlay, but some GMs roll with the "rule of cool"), then I might - but my expectation as a player is this:

If a scenario says I get a benefit for being a follower of Pharasma (or another deity that has Paladins), I don't get it. And I'm fine with that.

It does seem rather unlikely to come up, given there are about 15-20 deities that PFS characters can follow, that this is going to come up in play, or if it does, that it's going to be a major, scenario destroying benefit.

In that case, you should just say what kinevon suggested, that you're playing a paladin with no official patron but who admires many or even most aspects of Pharasmin doctrine. It seems that's what you're actually doing in practice, and it would let GMs know your intentions more easily than saying that you're a "Paladin of Pharasma". It would also be 100% allowed and supported by the rules of PFS, so I think every GM would welcome your character with open arms.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

@Rogue,

What happens if my Inquisitor of Shiruzu touches an altar that gives a boon to Saranae worshipers? He's of the belief they're the same goddess, (different aspects).

Mechanically, nothing. I'm not going to pout that I don't get the bene, any more that AdAstra says he would. Now from a role play PoV? Who's to say he doesn't believe he gets it. If it's something like "auto save your next energy drain" mechanically when he makes a save vs energy drain, he thanks the Lady for the blessing on him.

Edit: Also, don't forget, we've had people arguing, in this thread that even non-divine characters can't worship gods more than a step away from their alignment. So it's not clear that a 'Paladin of peaceful death' is going to get static any less than a Paladin of Pharasma.

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