We just had a nasty TPK at the very end of Carrion Crown 2, and will be getting a fresh, unconnected start in Carrion Crown 3.
However, one of the players is tired of dying, and is going to fight back by playing a tough healer. Currently, he's leaning towards a paladin/cleric/holy vindicator. I've recommended the oracle as the best healer, but he says it's not for him (doesn't care for the curses).
Then he asked the GM for permission to play a half-celestial, one without any other drawbacks (such as a level adjustment). He played a half-celestial paladin a long time ago (v3.0) and enjoyed it immensely and is probably (1) trying to get back to that and (2) is positively scared of dying again. The GM said yes.
However, myself and others objected, having concerns that the obvious power increase will allow him to overshadow our 7th-level characters. What's more, due to his personality type, our GM may well adjust encounters to suit, which means things may actually get worse (the revolving door of characters will spin even faster, at least for everyone but the half-celestial). He says he won't over shine us, since he will be actively protecting us and allowing us to do our own thing, rather than being more proactive. It's not the same thing to me though. I want to get past encounters through our own ingenuity, not because we had an inappropriately powerful ally.
I also have a personal concern that everyone else will want to do something similar, resulting in a party of freaks with nothing in common--thereby destroying any chance of possible synergy or story immersion.
So now we're at an stand still. If we say "no" to his getting the template, then he won't have much fun. If we say "yes" then our fun may well be diminished as well.
I've recommended alternatives, such as wings of flying or the eldritch heritage (celestial) feats to achieve the concept, while remaining balanced, but he's rejected all of them.
He's after the power. He doesn't want to die again.
None of us do.
Help.
I'd suggest he go with an Aasimar from the Blood of Angels and pick a bloodline. He'll get the flavor he wants and your group will get the balance they want.
well Ravingdork you definately dont seem to have boring conflicts, but i must admit i have no clue on how to solve this if you are accurate in what your saying, which ofcourse i assume you are.
You say that he is after the power, and that you are afraid that he will either a) overshadow the party, which i think is a really legitimate reason. Or that b) the GM will change encounters to match the hardness and then kill more characters, although presumably not the half celestial as he is going to be tough as hell.
He gets resistances, DR, spells, smite, darkvision, SR, and +4 on three abilities and +2 on the rest. Assuming he is a human half celestial, that would put him at most likely +6 on one stat +4 2 others and +2 the rest, which is kinda insane, especially if he gets if for nothing.
I think you can legitimately try to let him play the concept of celestial through the current rules without using the template, either through sorcerer bloodlines, aasimar with feats that gives wings and so on. So i would claim that the roleplaying part of it should be possible, if the concept doesnt include playing "superman" angel.
As to the power creep he is pulling, how is the GM feeling about it? but also have you tried to discuss as a party what goes wrong when you die, and possibly what you can do to not die (better setup, better combo's, better tactics?, learn to run?). Maybe just finding a better gameplan will convince him that he doesnt have to play half celestial, and he can still survive and play the concept he wants with fx an aasimar.
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Well all the players need to be on even footing to be fair. So either he need a LA(on page 219 of the Advanced Race Guide has a nice chart for it) or everyone needs to play similar powered races, or I think the best option is do what Balrick suggested. He gets the theme he wants and stays equal to everyone else.
An aasimar would not unbalance the game as much as a half-celestial.
After talking to him further, I think we may try to make a themed party out of it. He will be a "destined guardian" orphaned as a child or some such, and I'll be the mentor he's grown up with all his life (a non-cleric wizard priest or some such) while the other player will be the plucky rogue sidekick.
At least then, the rest of the party can feel like an important part of the story, by feeling interconnected.
Still going to suggest the assimar though.
I just want to understand one part of your story: You are not the GM, right Ravingdork? But you have the veto over the GM?
I do believe your point is valid though. If the party is at a lower level because this player is allowed to take the temple it will cause issues down the line.
Ask if you can play a drow noble, lol.
I am not the GM and don't possess any kind of veto power (other than choosing not to play and possibly taking other like-minded players with me). He is kind enough to listen to what I have to say from time to time, however.
Ah thanks for the insight Ravingdork.
Like I said though I think you are right to be concerned that this could have a negative impact on the overall game.
I would not want to play in a game like this where such blatant unbalancing and favortism was shown.
What. Free Half-Celestial template!
I would not want to play in a game like this where such blatant unbalancing and favortism was shown.
I'm not so sure it's favoritism. I think the GM feels guilty about all the TPKs and character deaths and is allowing it out of guilt.
I could probably ask for things too, I just don't think that would solve anything.
EDIT: And in fact, the GM already agreed to allow me to play a mindless man-eating ooze, though I was only joking at the time.
I don't suppose it's occured to you to ask the GM to scale back the power level a notch or two?
Yes, and I did. After the last TPK, he seemed genuinely upset, claiming that he wasn't even trying to kill us for a change (and that, that was fun).
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After talking to him further, I think we may try to make a themed party out of it. He will be a "destined guardian" orphaned as a child or some such, and I'll be the mentor he's grown up with all his life (a non-cleric wizard priest or some such) while the other player will be the plucky rogue sidekick.
At least then, the rest of the party can feel like an important part of the story, by feeling interconnected.
Still going to suggest the assimar though.
I like this compromise.
As your not the GM and your going to feel a little under powered or fragile in comparison, especially if the GM ups the power level.
So if you and the other players choose the theme their characters around the one you have an issue with you might enjoy the experience more with a better story.
A TPK does give you an opportunity to tie the characters back together with a linked background, where as new characters that come in to replace a single loss can be very hard for some players to integrate into their characterisation.
I'd also suggest the Assimar as an alternative if I was in the game (or GM).
Yes, and I did. After the last TPK, he seemed genuinely upset, claiming that he wasn't even trying to kill us for a change (and that, that was fun).
Huh, OK. It just seemed odd that with the players so disgruntled with (regular-ish?) TPKs, your GM would allow an "OP" template as compensation yet still increase the power level.
He may not. I'm basing that assumption off of past experiences with the guy, not on what he is saying now.
Me thinks he'll get a chance to show he's changed. One. Chance.
We just had a nasty TPK at the very end of Carrion Crown 2, and will be getting a fresh, unconnected start in Carrion Crown 3.
However, one of the players is tired of dying, and is going to fight back by playing a tough healer. Currently, he's leaning towards a paladin/cleric/holy vindicator. I've recommended the oracle as the best healer, but he says it's not for him (doesn't care for the curses).
Then he asked the GM for permission to play a half-celestial, one without any other drawbacks (such as a level adjustment). He played a half-celestial paladin a long time ago (v3.0) and enjoyed it immensely and is probably (1) trying to get back to that and (2) is positively scared of dying again. The GM said yes.
However, myself and others objected, having concerns that the obvious power increase will allow him to overshadow our 7th-level characters. What's more, due to his personality type, our GM may well adjust encounters to suit, which means things may actually get worse (the revolving door of characters will spin even faster, at least for everyone but the half-celestial). He says he won't over shine us, since he will be actively protecting us and allowing us to do our own thing, rather than being more proactive. It's not the same thing to me though. I want to get past encounters through our own ingenuity, not because we had an inappropriately powerful ally.
I also have a personal concern that everyone else will want to do something similar, resulting in a party of freaks with nothing in common--thereby destroying any chance of possible synergy or story immersion.
So now we're at an stand still. If we say "no" to his getting the template, then he won't have much fun. If we say "yes" then our fun may well be diminished as well.
I've recommended alternatives, such as wings of flying or the eldritch heritage (celestial) feats to achieve the concept, while remaining balanced, but he's rejected all of them.
He's after the power. He doesn't want to die again.
None of us do.
Help.
Ahh, wanting greater power from a non standard race, but not wanting to pay the level adjustment? How very cheesy. I've run into this before, one char wanted a four armed Sahuaghin, it worked with the setting so I was thrilled, but the char didn't want to pay the level adjustment cost. Argued back and forth, refused to accept the number I the dm put on it, left the game. A shameful display.
Another option is for the GM to use the ARG and give everyone race points sufficient to build an Aasimar. That way the one guy can play what he wants and everyone else can play as buffed up standard races if they'd prefer.
The party will be a bit over-powered for their level in the AP but the GM can compensate by raising the difficulty level of the challenges or compensating by taking out some of the magical gear.
True, my experiments with more player races have thus far gone well. The boggard is even in there.
Got tired of dwarves and elves, bring on the boggards, centaurs and otyughs.
If guy wants to play a char with a level adjustment, give everyone else level adjustments, lol.
Remember, this is Carrion Crown, where strange creatures are linched by mobs. If we all play monstrous characters, immersion will be wiped out.
Remember, this is Carrion Crown, where strange creatures are linched by mobs. If we all play monstrous characters, immersion will be wiped out.
Personally, I think the all Boggard party would be very interesting to play.
// Seriously though, race points people.
Great cleave is for mobs.
Also, lynch.
I agree. Half celestial would be over kill.
I would suggest looking at the more fundamental issues here, in hopes of improving this and games to come.
The deathaphobic player seems like he wants big, over-the-top, showy-awesomeness. I mean, I don't really see how playing a divine being is going to play out in many other ways.
I don't know anything about Carrion Crow yet, but it sounds like the game is going for a grittier, more down-in-the-mud sort of feel, which is greatly opposed to having main characters roving about with wings and pearly skin and a mane of heavenly golden fire, etc.
I usually prefer a good dose of grit in my games, and I've gamed with players who don't. Usually, I can get them to give it a try, and I have yet to fail in hooking them with the feel of plainclothes heroes.
The other issue, to me, is your group's seemingly high character death rate. I might even be totally wrong about the deathaphobe; he might just want to be strong enough to survive, rather than being strong and thus awesome and oh-so-cool. If that's the case, kindly disregard the above comments.
I've been a story-teller for 13 years, and I've only committed a TPK a few times in all those campaigns. Character death should be inspiring. It should move the controlling player to pride, and his fellows to sorrow. I've never had a character die on me without being able to make it at least a little satisfying.
I'm also not even a little ashamed to change my plans in the moment to save a character, or to ensure one's end. I don't change dice rolls, but if an encounter was supposed to merely wear the PC's down, say, with a double-ettin ambush, that second giant will cease to be if the first confirms three crits in two rounds.
I'd talk with your DM, see if there's a way to tone down the PC death while still keeping the heat on. At the very least, making people die in a way that concludes their character's tale and leaves a mark on the player's hearts should ease the level of anxiety your fellow player has when he sits down at the table.
This sounds like a crab in the bucket problem. Now, I admit that it's possible that this may cause the DM to overreact, but it's just as likely to cause the group to have a higher survival rate.
It doesn't hurt you to have other PC's be more powerful, it only helps the party.
Don't be a crab in the bucket. Support his being more powerful.
You guys need to act as a team.
It doesn't hurt you to have other PC's be more powerful, it only helps the party.
If the encounters aren't being properly scaled for the increased power, then it hurts because now the game is boringly easy.
If the encounters are being scaled for the increased power, then everyone who didn't get the god-buffs is at a much lower power level - remember that the template's massive attribute bonuses alone can easily turn a simple 10-point-buy into a 45-point monstrosity (or worse, since values above 18 don't normally have costs but can be accessed this way). Now everyone else is far less able to meaningfully contribute because they're at a much lower tier than the monsters and their god-spotlight-hero ally, and they're much more prone to death against the extra-buffed monsters.
It doesn't matter whether a party is strong or weak, but it does matter whether the party members are balanced relative to each other. Otherwise, everything's a joke thanks to the strong member or impossible for the weak members.
So, yes, having a broken party member does in fact hurt everyone else. And telling the entire rest of the group "Shut up, stop whining, and enjoy being a spectator" hardly seems an appropriate response. Especially when the problem could be solved by the other guy taking the level penalty like he's supposed to.
It doesn't hurt you to have other PC's be more powerful, it only helps the party.If the encounters aren't being properly scaled for the increased power, then it hurts because now the game is boringly easy.
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Have you been reading RD's threads? This ain't gonna happen.
Trust me, all that a extra strong PC means here is that the party will live thru four encounters, rather than only three.... before the TPK.
And in any case, this template isn't that much more powerful. It's not like he's a 20 wizard and everyone a Commoner 1. It more like the DM decided to have them roll, and he got lucky. This is pretty common.
He's playing an aasimar cleric artificer concept instead. He and his graven guardian together can still kick my ass, but at least I'm not going to feel useless with them at my side.
As it is carrion crown where you get to use harrow cards, if you look for a way to prevent TPKs you could ask the GM to get to draw a new card after each tough fight in which you needed used at least one card to survive.