Mixing attacks - weapon, armor spikes, and bite


Rules Questions


While trying to decide how to make a half-orc battle-cleric of Gorum, I realized that I could be very well armed... and also very confused. I want to make sure I have this down right.

A half-orc can take the "Toothy" racial trait (or alternatively, a feat) that gives them a bite attack, a primary natural attack that does 1d4 damage.

So, such a half-orc wielding a greatsword could:

  • attack with greatsword, and doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier
  • attack with bite, and doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier
  • use a full attack with both, doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier on the greatsword, taking a -5 on the bite attack, and doing damage + 0.5 x Strength mod on the bite.

Is this correct?

Now, to add to my confusion, devout Gorumites also typically wear armor spikes, which can be used as a light weapon, and an "off hand" weapon in the case of a multiattack.

So in this case, the half-orc could (assuming NO TWF feat):

  • attack with greatsword, and doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier
  • attack with bite, and doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier
  • attack with the armor spikes, and doing damage + Strength modifier
  • use a full attack with sword and bite, doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier on the greatsword, taking a -5 on the bite attack, and doing damage + 0.5 x Strength mod on the bite
  • use a full attack with sword and armor spikes, taking a -4 on the sword attack, doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier on the greatsword, taking a -8 on the spikes attack, and doing damage + 0.5 x Strength modifier on the spikes
  • use a full attack with armor spikes and bite, doing damage + Strength modifier on the spikes, taking a -5 on the bite attack, and doing damage + 0.5 x Strength mod on the bite
  • lastly, use a full attack with all three, taking a -4 on the sword attack, doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier on the greatsword, taking a -8 on the spikes attack, doing damage + 0.5 x Strength modifier on the spikes, taking a -5 on the bite attack, and doing damage + 0.5 x Strength modifier on the bite.

Is this all correct?

Finally, would taking Two Weapon Fighting affect the bite attack at all?


When you use a primary natural attack in conjuction with a manufactured weapons they behave as secondary natural attacks so the bite would be at a -5 modifier, and only add half of your strength bonus.

If you use the bite alone then it should do 1.5 x str mod unless otherwise stated.


But there is no extra penalty for using a natural attack in combination with multiple manufactured weapons, nor any bonus to it when using the TWF feat?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Derek Vande Brake wrote:
But there is no extra penalty for using a natural attack in combination with multiple manufactured weapons, nor any bonus to it when using the TWF feat?

You are correct, all of those attack options are valid.

Edit: and no, TWF would not affect the bite attack in any way.


Derek Vande Brake wrote:
But there is no extra penalty for using a natural attack in combination with multiple manufactured weapons, nor any bonus to it when using the TWF feat?

Yes there is.

Quote:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
Quote:
Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls.


I never said there was a bonus for using natural attacks with TWF.


I didn't say you did. I was simply confused as to how it all worked, because of the following text (emphasis mine):

PRD wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

Edit: Basically, since Multiattack makes secondary weapons take only a -2 instead of a -5, and TWF is listed in the same context, it implies - but doesn't flat out say - that TWF might also give such a bonus.

Grand Lodge

Bestiary has the proper rules for mixing manufactured weapon attacks and natural attacks.


Derek Vande Brake wrote:

I didn't say you did. I was simply confused as to how it all worked, because of the following text (emphasis mine):

PRD wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Edit: Basically, since Multiattack makes secondary weapons take only a -2 instead of a -5, and TWF is listed in the same context, it implies - but doesn't flat out say - that TWF might also give such a bonus.

Those PRD rules in the combat section are incorrect. This was stated by a dev a long time ago(over a year). It was supposed to be erratad, but it seems to have been missed again.

The bestiary rules are correct. TWF does not reduce the penalties.


Derek Vande Brake wrote:


Edit: Basically, since Multiattack makes secondary weapons take only a -2 instead of a -5, and TWF is listed in the same context, it implies - but doesn't flat out say - that TWF might also give such a bonus.

It is a mistake that TWF is included in that text part. The feat does not affect the penalty in question.

And while Multiattack lowers the penalty to -2, remember that it has a requirement of "3 or more natural attacks", so your toothy barbarian is not able to take it. While you could get a couple of claws, it might not be worth the investment.


Awesome. Thanks, all!

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Mixing attacks - weapon, armor spikes, and bite All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.