Derek Vande Brake |
While trying to decide how to make a half-orc battle-cleric of Gorum, I realized that I could be very well armed... and also very confused. I want to make sure I have this down right.
A half-orc can take the "Toothy" racial trait (or alternatively, a feat) that gives them a bite attack, a primary natural attack that does 1d4 damage.
So, such a half-orc wielding a greatsword could:
- attack with greatsword, and doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier
- attack with bite, and doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier
- use a full attack with both, doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier on the greatsword, taking a -5 on the bite attack, and doing damage + 0.5 x Strength mod on the bite.
Is this correct?
Now, to add to my confusion, devout Gorumites also typically wear armor spikes, which can be used as a light weapon, and an "off hand" weapon in the case of a multiattack.
So in this case, the half-orc could (assuming NO TWF feat):
- attack with greatsword, and doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier
- attack with bite, and doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier
- attack with the armor spikes, and doing damage + Strength modifier
- use a full attack with sword and bite, doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier on the greatsword, taking a -5 on the bite attack, and doing damage + 0.5 x Strength mod on the bite
- use a full attack with sword and armor spikes, taking a -4 on the sword attack, doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier on the greatsword, taking a -8 on the spikes attack, and doing damage + 0.5 x Strength modifier on the spikes
- use a full attack with armor spikes and bite, doing damage + Strength modifier on the spikes, taking a -5 on the bite attack, and doing damage + 0.5 x Strength mod on the bite
- lastly, use a full attack with all three, taking a -4 on the sword attack, doing damage + 1.5 x Strength modifier on the greatsword, taking a -8 on the spikes attack, doing damage + 0.5 x Strength modifier on the spikes, taking a -5 on the bite attack, and doing damage + 0.5 x Strength modifier on the bite.
Is this all correct?
Finally, would taking Two Weapon Fighting affect the bite attack at all?
cartmanbeck RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 |
wraithstrike |
But there is no extra penalty for using a natural attack in combination with multiple manufactured weapons, nor any bonus to it when using the TWF feat?
Yes there is.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Derek Vande Brake |
I didn't say you did. I was simply confused as to how it all worked, because of the following text (emphasis mine):
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Edit: Basically, since Multiattack makes secondary weapons take only a -2 instead of a -5, and TWF is listed in the same context, it implies - but doesn't flat out say - that TWF might also give such a bonus.
wraithstrike |
I didn't say you did. I was simply confused as to how it all worked, because of the following text (emphasis mine):
PRD wrote:You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.Edit: Basically, since Multiattack makes secondary weapons take only a -2 instead of a -5, and TWF is listed in the same context, it implies - but doesn't flat out say - that TWF might also give such a bonus.
Those PRD rules in the combat section are incorrect. This was stated by a dev a long time ago(over a year). It was supposed to be erratad, but it seems to have been missed again.
The bestiary rules are correct. TWF does not reduce the penalties.
HaraldKlak |
Edit: Basically, since Multiattack makes secondary weapons take only a -2 instead of a -5, and TWF is listed in the same context, it implies - but doesn't flat out say - that TWF might also give such a bonus.
It is a mistake that TWF is included in that text part. The feat does not affect the penalty in question.
And while Multiattack lowers the penalty to -2, remember that it has a requirement of "3 or more natural attacks", so your toothy barbarian is not able to take it. While you could get a couple of claws, it might not be worth the investment.