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I need your feedback and advice please


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

KestlerGunner wrote:

I just read the Hellknight Signifer class from Paths of Prestige.

Dear God. Matt Goodall, I am blown away.

It is the coolest g&~$++n prestige class I can ever remember reading. I honestly can't remember a Prestige class that had more flavor mixed in with working rules.

It's not broken and on the power scale it's equivalent with going straight core. There's no weird rules malarkey going on here. Enemies that rely on illusions and trickery are going to get assiduously gazed at and hammered by a Signifer, but apart from that, they're on the same level as everyone else. Their strongest powers are defensive, not offensive, and even then they have spell caster HP so there's nothing to show off with.

PFS would really be missing out if there were onerous barriers stopping people from playing Signifers. They are seven layers of awesome. I can see why you'd want a special Signifer module!

There's going to be a lot of embittered Chelish clerics and wizards crying for retraining rules once they read up on this class!

I've already said it is going to be made legal in September in my post earler in this thread.

Osirion ** Venture-Captain, Canada—Atlantic Regions aka Nuit

Although I may be a bit late to the party. I believe that opening things up as scenerios come along is the best and greatest way to go. There is no better feeling than to know you worked to get access to an item.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

After reading the thread I don't have anything else to add and just reiterate:

1. Love the campaign so far Mike, your efforts are seen and appreciated. Never had a problem so far with the way/direction you are steering the ship.

2. I do like the idea of restricting PrC and items to chronicle sheets. +100% in favor of keeping chronicles relevant, even if its just a boring +1 to a certain skill check boon.

3. I do like the Core, Restricted, Banned denominations some people noted above. I never played LG, but I think it would work in this case for the benefit of all parties.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

In LG it was actually
Core (equivalent to always available + fame access)
Limited (chronicle access)
Restricted (only authors can use, will not be allowed on chronicles)
Banned (not allowed for use in the campaign, at all.)

Shadow Lodge ***

There's a very fundamental question regarding the philosophy of access in PFS that I feel is being played with here, and people are upset because Mike started making changes without telling anybody.

Previously: 99% of material is legal and available.

Mike's potential plan: Some of the cool material has to be "earned."

One of the problems with this new plan is it strongly encourages tracking of rewards by players who have yet to play the scenarios.

Example: wow, this prestige class really fits my character, time to go find out what scenario gives access to it.

(Follow up: oh no we played it and failed to get the boon, what do I do with my character that was planning on taking that?)
---
I don't think that's the kind of behavior we're looking for.
---

I do think we need cool things on chronicle sheets. I think that's accomplishible with things like partially charged wands, weird caster level items, even "spell in a can" items that Paizo tends to hate.

I don't think we should make fundamental character choices special access that may or may not be earned as one levels up, without significantly more flexible re-spec rules.

Personally, I would prefer not to expand the re-spec rules past first level but would also like to be able to make the character I want, and play in whatever adventures are being offered without having to worry about playing the right one to get access to the class that fits my character.

****

Raymond Lambert wrote:
I think it is hypocritical to ignor special requirements to join a prestige class but require playing a specific adventure.

This is an excellent example of personalizing a complaint about rules. Describing this policy as unfair, weird, silly, absurd, outrageous, or unreasonable is commentary on the policy itself. When you say it's hypocritical, you're implying that there's a flaw in the people behind the reasoning--that they are hypocrites. But they're not. (Well, maybe they are--I haven't met them--but this isn't evidence of it.)

I'm not trying to single Mr. Lambert out, and as this problem goes this is a relatively minor example of it, but since this is the phenomenon that prompted this thread, I think it bears noting: You can complain about a ruling without implying (or outright stating) conditions or agendas on the part of the people who made the ruling.

In short: Play nice, people.

Grand Lodge ****

Paz wrote:
Raymond Lambert wrote:
I think it is hypocritical to ignor special requirements to join a prestige class but require playing a specific adventure.

I entirely disagree. Requiring PCs to do a related mission to interact with that organisation/prestige class/required foe is the best way to simulate the role-playing requirements of the prestige classes in an organised play environment.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone here but want to point out offering PrCs through faction missions or other in-scenario requirements creates issues. For example, if scenario 4-1x offers the Big Damn Hero PrC and one of player Kylee Tam's six characters, Veera, wants the PrC, how is she going to know to play that scenario with that character? She can wave Mr. Universe here on these boards but then we'll have threads giving scenario hints and spoilers. I've seen it happen in a different organized campaign where we were forced to leave even though we were so many.

Now, if joining the faction itself automatically gave access to the Big Damn Hero PrC then I think that'll keep the power hungry spoilers at bay. But then it forces players to create characters belonging to a particular faction that maybe they wouldn't want to play.

Andoran *** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

I have little to add, but want to cast my vote for some of the suggestions made:

1. Making Chronicles relevant is a great thing. Having boons/rewards that reflect what you did (and for tougher scenarios, only available if you did the right thing) gives your character a sense of history of what he/she has done. Special items, bonuses to rolls in certain areas/with certain groups, unlocks of previously unavailable rules.

2. Having unlocks be transferrable to a different character would alleviate the feeling of having earned something useless, and the cherry picking of scenarios. It would probably have to be on a second Chronicle, though so that you don't have to have your folder for Joe Bob the Fighter in order to document your right to play Wendy the Winter Witch.

Or:
or possibly require giving two copies, one for the main reward and one just for the boon, so as to prevent using up precious page count in the scenario

3. Having faction specific unlocks has great potential, but would require a bit of work on your part to have it be balanced so everyone gets access to equally cool stuff.

Also, I want to add my voice to the cheers for your work, Mike. I appreciate the thought and care you put into the game, and so far agree with your philosophy. Keep it up!

**

K. I am relatively new to PFS, but have a ton of time and experience with other similar structures as both prolific GM/playtester and occasional module author, notably LG and LC from 2nd Ed thru 3.5.

So far as feedback goes, this is one of the best large scale organized play setups so far. Being new, I only have the last couple months of forums to go by, but it seems as tho the staff here is truly interested in feedback and the fun of the overall player base. You can't please everyone, but you do manage to get most of them, and the others probably wouldn't be happy without a 40pt buy and artifacts for them while everyone else got 15 and no magic at all anyways.

So far as access to new material, people need to realize that the books are written for one reason, TO MAKE MONEY. They don't take into account campaign balance, or campaign style, or whatnot. They do usually take into account game-balance within the system, unless someone overlooks something, and that is fixed by errata fairly quickly. As such, not everything fits in a game where the general rules say you are a non-evil character, based on a campaign that is trying to better the society. Also, game balance and campaign balance are not the same thing, so altho a master summoner is balanced in game terms, for the purpose of standardized modules/encounter levels it is not. So some things are just unavailable. I don't agree with them all myself, but I do understand the reasoning, and just like any other game, the GM's rules are the rules, or you find another GM. In this case, they're generally fair all-around, some corner cases notwithstanding.

For PrCs, chronicle based access makes good fluff sense and poor play sense, since it will lead to much more meta-game parties than the well known TPK mods do. If you only get access on the PC who played the module, then you should allow a full rebuild of the character to meet the requirements of the class, as PrC's need constant attention in a game where you only get 12 levels to work with for the most part. The justification being that they now have access to spells/abilities that may not be usable with their current race/align/stats. Or, you allow them to transfer the boon to another character. I, for one, love this idea, and would happily see it apply to all the splash books out there, since it would also encourage world immersion and module creation for various regions/factions. I also support the idea that some obviously pointed PrCs, such as Hellknight Signifier that has been discussed, be "always available to Cheliax Faction, otherwise restricted to chronicle access." Assuming the CRB and the APG PrC classes are available for all, and others be listed as such, would actually make faction matter for something other than how you get your 2nd PP and whatever +1 skill trait you like.

As for the option to GM the module for credit for a specific toon, the intent to draw in more GM's is applauded, as they need to get more credit for what they do to make the game go round. Sadly, in practice it normally leads to several tables of GMs lookin for a cookie, then never runnin anything else unless there's another cookie to be had. Good GM's are hard to find, bad GMs are easy to bribe.

Chronicle sheets are currently not worth keeping except to track your pp and gold so far as I can tell. The items are either usless, already available from play or pp, or both. There are exceptions to this I am sure (notably higher caster level or reduced charge wands), as I have only seen about 20 mods, but from the general discussion I believe I have seen the normal sampling. Things like normally unavailable items, named items, situational skill bonuses (i.e. frostfur flowers), these are what give the character some actual substance. Maybe even consider things like actually upgrading a named item with a +X ability, or something else to separate one PC who's played it from another PC with the same sheet. I don't know how broken that would be, just a thought, doesn't seem too bad since you have to have the total fame-gold ratio taken into account already.

You do have a tough job balancing transparency with cool surprises, but people have given an answer for that several times. State your ruling, stand your ground unless something was truly in error, and those that just want their double stuffed chocolate covered cookie with sprinkles be damned.

Sorry for the Wall 'O Text,

Great Job So Far, Keep Up The Good Work.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Hello, I just wanted to say that I think that Mike Is doing a good job from what I have seen.
Giving a short one time reason why something was banned may help satisfy a large number of people.
As far as making chronicle sheets special, I would refrain from listing always available Items unless they are at a discount or some other decent reason to be on It.
The seemingly simple step of being able to transfer a Prc to a different character would be my vote on the subject.
To reiterate I appreciate the job you are doing Mike, as It would seem that a lot of us here make It a pretty thankless one.
It always seems that the loudest voices are negative, but I bet the majority of the people are happy with PFS, at least the ones that I game with are.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Melbourne aka KestlerGunner

Michael Brock wrote:
I've already said it is going to be made legal in September in my post earler in this thread.

Rolling a 1 on reading comprehension for me.

Just read the Signifer class fully and was so buzzed had to leap online and gush about it.

*notices Brock's avatar has an eyeless mask*
*puts 1 and 1 together*
*backs off slowly*

Cheliax *

KestlerGunner wrote:


There's going to be a lot of embittered Chelish clerics and wizards crying for retraining rules once they read up on this class!

Re-training, schmre-training.

It's not like my current Cheliax character will see much play post 12 even with modules. Signifer is just an incentive to roll another.

(That, and those lovely notes from the Paracountess.)

***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks for asking for our feedback, I like the suprises but not the term broken - perfectly great ideas & concepts (like Magical Knack get left out) due to the fact some of us are inclined to cheese.

If you could stick with your way but instead make sure we can apply the boon to another character that would be awesome (there is nothing more frustrating than finding out after you have played a series of scenarios the boon suits another character better - I am thinking PRC or Animal Companion but this may work for items too. You could simply add a line requiring GM signature for which character name and number they will be applying the boon too.

I think you’re doing a lot right, I look forward to sitting down to a PFS table both as GM and a player.

Cheliax *

Thanks for the compliment Chris. Do not think I will be going to Gencon anytime soon again but I hope to do Origins some time or other sooner and more often than Gencon.

You did understand my worry about not being in the right tier for some reason or another.

Several of you ignored the complaint about any other game where you do the same special requirement not getting you access. Even if all chances in the future are listing such on future chronicles, there are around 100 earlier society games that do not call out space where you might have for filled a requirement. For example, the only special requirement I recall from the top of my head is how the hell knight requires you to slay a devil of greater hit dice than your own and it must be witnessed by a hell knight. Any prior mod from year 0,1,2,3 where this happens does not get you special permission. Instead, you have to play that one mod.

@ Paz, As for what I did during year 0 & 1? I refused to play society games back then. I was sick and tired or the core classes and had no interest in playing them. I played one game, quickly learned that even the pf core classes were below my standards and did not play in the society again untill the Summoner came out. I have had a lot of fun with multiple summoners in the society since then but i am very board with the same old gear as the crb(got UE today though, still evaluating it) I wanted to do the synthesist but missed the chance. Enjoyed pioneering the multiclassing alc/full bab builds also and now have to get rid of one of those archetypes. So I am thankful for the increase in options and am making use of them. That does not change the fact that many options are so poor they are never really an option to begin with. Not just for high standards either, sometimes an option is just not your style no matter how good machanically good it is. That is why I am so much in favor of making options open rather than very limiting with such small avenues to chase after them.

Grand Lodge

Dragnmoon wrote:


Stuff that should be used as Scenario Boons or for Con Boons are those things that are . . . limited by the rules (items of above min caster level).

I am in favor of putting special things on the special/con boons.. I think items such as wands at a higher caster level would help make some of those blah "why is this level 2 potion on my subtier 8-9 chronicle" issues dissolve.

*

I have mixed feelings. I want special things on the chronicle sheets. But at the same time, I want to be able to use those things with the characters that actually earned them.

Assuming the Signifier is a prestige class for Hellknights, I would want my Hellknight to actually play the adventures in which he could gain access to it. Having my wizard do the Hellknight story arc, then GMing it to give the sheets to my Hellknight is unsatisfying, and really no different from just having it unlocked to begin with. (The same with transferring the boon, it's not entirely about access, it's about actually doing what the sheet says you did)

So if a major character aspect is going to be 'locked' behind a boon, it would be nice to know about it ahead of time. "In this adventure, the PCs investigate the court of the Law Dog, and must convince the terrifying Hellknights of the Fang to allow them access to the inner secrets of their organization! This adventure has special rewards for Hellknight-themed characters." That would be enough to know that I don't want to play that adventure without my Hellknight, without spoiling exactly what the surprise might be.

For non-major character aspects, like a nice sword a Hellknight might want to use, it's not as big a deal if he didn't actually kill the guy and take it from him, but got it off-stage somehow.

If you want to encourage more GMing, maybe allow a person to apply more than one GM chronicle sheet. If someone runs a scenario three times, why not let him apply a chronicle sheet to three of his PCs who have not played it?

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

5 people marked this as a favorite.

After thinking this through for a couple of days, I've changed my mind.

Many Prestige Classes, from those in the main rulebook to the most recent sources, have included event-based prerequisites. (For example, a Hellknight needs to fight a more powerful devil. A hopeful Living Monolith needs to get a letter of introduction from another Monolith or from a Sphinx.) Pathfinder Society has, at this point, hand-waved those requirements.

Scenarios that "unlock" a prestige class serve the same purpose. (In fact, they could include those event-based pre-requisites.)

So, I'd recommend that (a) most of the Prestige Classes be unlocked by scenario boons, and (b) this fact be well known. Want to be a Living Monolith? Take a letter to a sphinx. Want to be a Signifier? Go see Vicarius Giordano Torchia about a problem he's having on-board a ship moored just east of Kortos.

This brings PFS OP closer in line with the base Pathfinder rules.

Although, to be honest, I would prefer these unlocking adventures be short Quests rather than Scenarios, but I yield my judgement on this to the VOs.

Cheliax *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis & St. Paul aka Leg o' Lamb

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Chris Mortika wrote:
Although, to be honest, I would prefer these unlocking adventures be short Quests rather than Scenarios, but I yield my judgement on this to the VOs.

I like this idea.

*** Venture-Lieutenant, Illinois—Richmond aka thunderspirit

Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Although, to be honest, I would prefer these unlocking adventures be short Quests rather than Scenarios, but I yield my judgement on this to the VOs.
I like this idea.

This would be stellar.

*****

Chris Mortika wrote:

After thinking this through for a couple of days, I've changed my mind.

Many Prestige Classes, from those in the main rulebook to the most recent sources, have included event-based prerequisites. (For example, a Hellknight needs to fight a more powerful devil. A hopeful Living Monolith needs to get a letter of introduction from another Monolith or from a Sphinx.) Pathfinder Society has, at this point, hand-waved those requirements.

Scenarios that "unlock" a prestige class serve the same purpose. (In fact, they could include those event-based pre-requisites.)

So, I'd recommend that (a) most of the Prestige Classes be unlocked by scenario boons, and (b) this fact be well known. Want to be a Living Monolith? Take to a sphinx. Want to be a Signifier? Go see Vicarius Giordano Torchia about a problem he's having on-board a ship moored just east of Kortos.

This brings PFS OP closer in line with the base Pathfinder rules.

Although, to be honest, I would prefer these unlocking adventures be short Quests rather than Scenarios, but I yield my judgement on this to the VOs.

That certainly has merit .. and in keeping with people's desire to know ahead of time.. there could be a tag line in the scenario description so people know that there is a prc available from that scenario

*

I would agree that if Mike wants to make PrC's dependent on chronicles, Quests are the perfect vehicle to unlock them. It would remove much of the concern about tiers and the level that the PrC is acquired, and it would serve to raise the profile of Quests and give them a purpose in the context of the campaign (as they do not provide either XP or Fame).

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

This is the perfect thing to do with quests, and I am now inspired to see what PrC or two I can provide a good entry point for in a quest format for the open call.

Problem, meet solution proposal!

Taldor **

Chris Mortika wrote:

After thinking this through for a couple of days, I've changed my mind.

Many Prestige Classes, from those in the main rulebook to the most recent sources, have included event-based prerequisites. (For example, a Hellknight needs to fight a more powerful devil. A hopeful Living Monolith needs to get a letter of introduction from another Monolith or from a Sphinx.) Pathfinder Society has, at this point, hand-waved those requirements.

Scenarios that "unlock" a prestige class serve the same purpose. (In fact, they could include those event-based pre-requisites.)

So, I'd recommend that (a) most of the Prestige Classes be unlocked by scenario boons, and (b) this fact be well known. Want to be a Living Monolith? Take a letter to a sphinx. Want to be a Signifier? Go see Vicarius Giordano Torchia about a problem he's having on-board a ship moored just east of Kortos.

This brings PFS OP closer in line with the base Pathfinder rules.

Although, to be honest, I would prefer these unlocking adventures be short Quests rather than Scenarios, but I yield my judgement on this to the VOs.

This is an excellent idea Chris. The new Quests, by their nature are designed to be short, sweet and offer interesting boons and this could be a really good way of allowing players access to PrCs without restricting it to the character played in a scenario.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think that unlockables would be really cool. Either unlockable for the existing character or unlockable for a new character.

I think the important thing though is to say in the resources document that this is locked but at some point in the season will be available for use from a scenario.

Another idea, sorry if this has been mentioned the thread is getting long, you could steal an idea from the MMO world.

You could use community results to unlock something. # of people that have completed a specific scenario, special results at a con, or in a special.

As an example imagine a race called X being introduced but locked. It becomes available for everyone if certain requirements are met PFS wide.

Shadow Lodge ** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

huntsfromshadow wrote:
I think the important thing though is to say in the resources document that this is locked but at some point in the season will be available for use from a scenario.

Saying anything more than "it's locked. It may be unlocked at some future date" is a really bad idea. Even that might be too much.

Plans change. What seems like a brilliant idea now might not look quite so good four months from now. And no matter how low you try to set the expectations, it won't work; Mike will still get a raft of email every month from folks complaining that their favourite doo-hickey hasn't shown up on this month's list of goodies. The more you seem to be promising, the more complaints there will be when fantasy and reality clash.

*** Venture-Lieutenant, Illinois—Richmond aka thunderspirit

James Jacobs has stated that disappointing people is part of his job description. It's a regrettable part, to be sure, but a necessary one.

Mike's obviously in a different role than James, but he too will sometimes have to say "no", and that's inherently unpopular. But it's part of the deal.

**

I trust you Mike.

**

It's the Aesop fable of the Man, the Boy, and the Donkey. No matter what you do, someone will not be pleased. We'll complain and whine, but in the end it's your call that matters.

Personally, I like having things open. It's a bit of a bummer to play a scenerio and find either a really awesome boon or "build around me" item (I'm looking at you, Quest for Perfection) and realize that your character has no use for it or is simply already too dedicated to a build to use it effectively.

I think Chris's idea of making these "build around me" boons to be Quest rewards is an ideal middle ground. It makes a player do a little something extra, but in return they get a little something more. It also allows the player to know what he/she's getting into, so the chance of the "aw man, this would be perfect on my OTHER character" is kept to a minimum.

On a personal note, I'd say whole heartedly that I trust you to get the job done, and get it done well. I may not always agree with your calls, but I believe you make the right ones.

Grand Lodge ****

A few more pieces of feedback:

FAQ at HQ for 411:
I would recommend a guide or FAQ at the HQ table for volunteers to consult. Having it become a living document they get very familiar with will go a long way. It doesn't need to be paper-based. Having it on a PC or their mobile device (everyone has one) might be better. I know a FAQ can't cataloge every instance or situation but it can provide a framework based on, frequently asked questions. This would give players the impression HQ is the all-knowing platform of PFS and they can zip off to their table or muster area.
Reason: Many times I saw questions escalated (sometimes I was the cause)
Fix: Capture these questions/answers and add them to the FAQ. Escalations are reduced and it standardizes HQ information.

Delegation 4 Rest:
Delegate 2 - 3 HQ members to take specific roles to support Mike and Jon and make the call as if he/she was the event coordinator. These volunteers would have to be comfortable with actually making the call and sticking to it. Of course providing instructuon on what to escalate is important. With the volume of people at conventions delegation will get the non-FAQ questions answered quickly without having to escalate to one person. It will also reduce staff stress levels and allow everyone to rest at night. The last one being most important.
Reason: minimize the number of questions that were escalated to Jon or went straight to Mike.
Fix: training select individuals to become Jon and Mike's right-hand, to spread the responsibility and give back time for rest at the end of the day.

Express Lane Serving 4061:
If possible, have a volunteer express lane to HQ. I know lines aren't possible most of the time as everyone crowds the area but as a GM and musterer I had questions and waited for players asking for Pre-gens and "what can I play" or "where do I go" questions. Yeah, boo-hoo for me, but I had a table or a muster area of people waiting on me. Not to discount the attendee's need but an express line for volunteers will keep the other gears moving faster.
Reason: reduce the time a volunteer spends at HQ and more time running their table or getting people sat
Fix: delegate an HQ member per slot, as needed, that is identifiable to volunteers as the express lane for questions.

Hope this helps

Grand Lodge *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

Personally, I would like to see more of a delay between the release of new material by Paizo and its availability in PFS. That allows the most egregious problems to be caught before it impacts too many players. How about two updates to the PFS guide and additional resources per year? That way everything would have six months of study before it hit PFS tables.

Secondly, saying stuff will be available doesn't indicate whether it is generally available to the player base or only available to the six players of a high level interactive table at Paizo con. For better or worse, you have established that cons get bonuses which may not be offered to the masses.

I'm not particularly interested in the new Paths of Prestige book because I have 12th, 10th and 5th level characters. There is a snowball's chance in hell that I can qualify for a prestige class and get much use of it in PFS due to the level 12 cap.

I think you are doing a good job and appreciate that Aasimar and Tieflings were made generally available in PFS. (And I purchased the Ultimate Race Guide, Blood of Angels and Blood of Fiends last week when I was able to make use of it in PFS). So you need to offer stuff, but IMO you are far better off releasing it slowly into the campaign. Banning stuff which had previously been legal is far worse for the campaign than not allowing access in the first place.

Grand Lodge

Patrick Harris wrote:
Yeah, but how happy are you when you earn something that turns out to be broken because nobody else has earned it yet and therefore it hasn't been tested?

This was exactly my point. Play test it, don't add it because players want it now.


TetsujinOni wrote:

In LG it was actually

Core (equivalent to always available + fame access)
Limited (chronicle access)
Restricted (only authors can use, will not be allowed on chronicles)
Banned (not allowed for use in the campaign, at all.)

Sorry double post cannot figure out how to delete that last one. I think this is the best option, and it would be kind of nice to know what is just outright banned. On another note, i strongly advise against retroactively banning options that were once allowed, as with the last update alot of players were a little upset about some of the options being banned, especially if they already had characters set up for them. So letting us know what is never available for play and maybe why on that account you dont need to say what chronicles a certain PrC or race would be awarded as a boon. I already think this provides too much incentive to go chronicle hunting just to unlock things and leaves people who cant actually attend conventions SOL.

They really should be able to unlock boons in local games, not just conventions or special events unless it is something more cosmetic, and i wouldnt be too bent out of shape on races since your race is mostly flavor. Also a short description on why said item is banned from PFS play when you do make these decisions might help put some minds at ease or help us understand some decisions that might not make sense to us or leave us to speculate. Like the recent changes to available archtypes, some were more understandable than others.

Andoran ***

My largest problem with making something like a prestige class available by a scenario is that only one (two by gming) characters can get the prestige class (unless made more like an unlock which after gaining all your characters have access to).

I mean what if I wanted a specific class and accidentally played through it with the wrong character, or wasn't in the right tier with that character.

As far as items, that I honestly enjoy a bit more, I don't think anyone is ever a a shortage of what they can buy.


Well generally unlocked. Also ever consider buying PrC with prestige points

Grand Lodge ****

Ocule wrote:
Well generally unlocked. Also ever consider buying PrC with prestige points

I like this idea. But how would it get worked out? You need to buy it by a certain level because of the level 12 cap. How many points for what PrC? The tastier the PrC the higher it costs? Or are all a flat cost? If one uses PP for raise dead does it put one out of the running because earning it back will take up too many levels for an effective build into the PrC?

All questions to work out but I really like this idea. It also makes earning those PP much more valuable if you're working into a PrC. It also creates an even field for all PrCs available and doesn't create this "stars upon thars" issue I've read with boons available only at conventions (Which I don't think should stop. I think it makes attending the Con special and rewarding as it should be for a large show like GenCon.)

**** Venture-Captain, New Jersey aka Shivok

Just got back from annual training so I missed this thread while in the woods at FT Drum.

Most posters said just about everything I would say.

@Mike - you're doing a great job brother - I know its tough(actually its impossible) to please everyone. In this Geekdom we call PFS those 100 whiney emails you recieve every day,say nothing about the thousands of silent approvals of your stewardship with this campaign.

That said I'd like race/unique item boons to be released at mainly cons and other special events.

PrC's on the other hand should be purchaseable using PP's (I really like this idea! kudos Ocule, Rene!)

Andoran ***

Always remember that gamers gunna game.

Keep things limited as much as possible. I'm looking forward to the idea of chronicles mattering.

Silver Crusade *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have not been part of PFS as long as the PFS VFW members, but I have been a part for about three years. I am enjoying the awesomeness that is PFS.
My region has awesome leadership and guidance through C. Jarvis and Kyle E. The players kick butt and made the experience that much more enjoyable.
Keep up the good work.

Shivok, awesome job on the oracle at paizocon and I am glad you got your training at Drum done in the summer and not the winter. Burrrrrrrr.

Sczarni **

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
The Great Rinaldo! wrote:

I have little to add, but want to cast my vote for some of the suggestions made:

1. Making Chronicles relevant is a great thing. Having boons/rewards that reflect what you did (and for tougher scenarios, only available if you did the right thing) gives your character a sense of history of what he/she has done. Special items, bonuses to rolls in certain areas/with certain groups, unlocks of previously unavailable rules.

2. Having unlocks be transferrable to a different character would alleviate the feeling of having earned something useless, and the cherry picking of scenarios. It would probably have to be on a second Chronicle, though so that you don't have to have your folder for Joe Bob the Fighter in order to document your right to play Wendy the Winter Witch. ** spoiler omitted **

3. Having faction specific unlocks has great potential, but would require a bit of work on your part to have it be balanced so everyone gets access to equally cool stuff.

Also, I want to add my voice to the cheers for your work, Mike. I appreciate the thought and care you put into the game, and so far agree with your philosophy. Keep it up!

The concept of having the item available on a chronicle sheet and having it be transferable is kinda nifty. We've actually already seen something like this with the Fetchling boon on the Grand Convocation sheets. That boon requires you to have a copy of the boon on both characters, the one that played through and earned you access to it, and the one you're applying it to.

Personally, I really want chronicle sheets to actually mean something, rather than just the way I track my prestige, gold, and exp. One thing I've seen that I liked were sheets with unique items on them. I hadn't read about these items in any books, seen them in any source like the d20pfsrd, or such, and when they popped up I went, "Oh, cool!"

I was lucky enough to get a specific item on the character that really would've bought it (and he did), but because of the level of the scenario, he tiered out of it very quickly and if I'd tried to use GM credit to get it to him (had he not played that scenario) I would've been SOL.

Attaching spiffy/unlockable items to chronicle sheets for Quests is a great idea! You can replay them as many times as you have characters that can, which means you can play it, find it has an awesome item for a different character, then play it with that character to get the item.

I'm pleased with the vast majority of the rules in place and the rulings of the campaign staff, and even when I don't like the rules, I still play by them. There haven't been any rulings that have made me want to leave the society, but I guess I'm just an adaptable sorta guy, so that's maybe just me.

Keep up the good work!

Andoran

I believe that there should be more restrictions on item/special class availability. Except for a small listing of always available items, access to most other items should be via adventuring only. Items available through prestiege awards should be limited to a small number of items. Why should, for example, players have access to stacks of varying wands? Non standard items/benefits/curses/drawbacks should be available as adventure boons/penalties. To prevent some of the effects of metagaming, there might even be a small randomized listing of special items availble for each module.


I'm not sure about everyone else, but I don't really think any prestige classes should be given on a chronicle sheet. I hardly see them taken anyways, and again, there's the issue of getting it for a character that wasn't made for it nor fit their flavor. I do, however agree with using incentives for people to GM.

If some PrCs should be boon-special, I think it might be a good idea to give two chronicle sheets for the adventure: One for the adventure being completed, and two for the boon that can be applied to anyone (Kind of like the racial boons.) or maybe advertise the boon on the scenario. Although my latter idea is probably a bad idea.

I'm neutral on Ultimate Equipment availability. I don't have access to the new stuff in Ultimate Equipment (and I'm ashamed to say I won't until Hero Lab has it as a data package or it gets added to the d20pfsrd. I'm a bad person, I really should support paizo more...)

Chronicle sheets aren't really worthless in my opinion. The boons aren't overpowering, but can be interesting once in a while. The worst chronicle sheets are is book-keeping, and I'm bad on that too, but if it means not having people cheat on characters, so be it.

****

sieylianna wrote:
Personally, I would like to see more of a delay between the release of new material by Paizo and its availability in PFS. That allows the most egregious problems to be caught before it impacts too many players. How about two updates to the PFS guide and additional resources per year? That way everything would have six months of study before it hit PFS

Sure. Except that I only play society, so then there's no reason to buy the books until they've been out for six months. And I'm not alone. Aaand come to think of it there's a lot of stuff that will work just fine at home but doesn't in society play so we still have the same problem.

Although, seriously, something does need to be done about chronicles. I was looking at a 7-11 mod the other day and the chronicle has a cloak of resistance +1 on it. C'mon.

Shadow Lodge ****

****NOTE**** I AM NOT COMPLAINING

Mike, what I think is happening is that the player base as a majority has become Placiated (sp?) as a whole with the access mechanic

the specific things I am talking about is the Items that make it on the chronicle, Generally we have enough fame to buy the Items Well before they show up on the chronicles - with the exception of playing up (and 1 other I can recall)

in your example the Signifier is likely a bad PrC to try that with because of its Mention in a book that has been Core Assumption for a While (Pathfinder Society Field guide - Cheliax Faction)and its Sister Class is available Already , again while I applaud your efforts to make a decision like that this one may have not been the best Choice

one other Comment I saw was "Give a LG player a Donut and they will complain about the Hole" I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair because thats a great analogy

I however am actually a fan of NOT opening up new material at all - aside from the Basic stuff (Non magical ect) and throw the Items on Chronicles that they make sense to go with ... PRC's, Spells, Magic Items, Special materials - the whole 9 yards ... Sure - you'll have ppl complaining that X Y and Z aren't available - but at the same time it helps you manage the power Creep a bit

IMHO if ppl are complaining that you got them an android and not an Iphone for Christmas - Throw it away THEN they will realize how happy they were with what youd given them

my 2 cents

edit:

and yes I have complained about lack of Race Access - but thats because its difficult for me to get to the big Cons due to money ( My fault - not yours)

Edit 2

TetsujinOni wrote:

In LG it was actually

Core (equivalent to always available + fame access)
Limited (chronicle access)
Restricted (only authors can use, will not be allowed on chronicles)
Banned (not allowed for use in the campaign, at all.)

Limited was actually Chronicle +3 in LG

Osirion ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I agree with some that PrC should be opened up by using PP for the majority, but some PrC should be limited by faction, i.e. Hellknight to Cheliax, Living Monolith to Osirion, etc. For the factions without an obvious choice I'm pretty sure something can be found that fits the "flavor" of the faction.

As far as PrC limited to chronicles, I think this is a terrible idea. Even with Mike's idea that playing through the first time with an ineligible character, that means that most people will only have at most one character with the class. What about people that really like one character concept? I know we can tell them to open up a little and play different styles, but it's their character and their choice.

I would love to see more unique items on the chronicle sheets. Seeing a named item, wands with higher caster level, and things of that nature. I would be okay with keeping named items in general out-of-bounds unless found on a chronicle sheet. That makes the named items a little more unique, and gives you a chance to RP a back-story too it. "This celestial armor I wear was given to me as a reward for discovering the Amulet of Rasditor while exploring the demon infested ruins near the Worldwound." That sounds much better than "Oh this? I bought it at Farka's Corner Market in Katapesh."

Qadira ****

people like new and nifty things.

Specific items clearly make sense as chronicle only.

PRCs I like quests for that, but it can be hard to find a group to run a quest; Quests don't give you a lot for running them. fine and easy with a home group, a little trickier with trying to schedule events.

chronicle sheets really do need more unique stuff on them. almost to the point of "if fame can buy this, why is it on the sheet"

You know what makes for awesome chronicle sheets. Alternate slotted items. "vest of resistance" gloves of dexterity, ect. A lot of times item slots overlap, I would like to see more creative slotting for items appearing on chronicle sheets, that makes them new and interesting, without the need to design new items.

I haven't played a ton of PFS, but with the exception of undercharged wands, basically all the items on chronicle sheets are weak.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber
Wraith235 wrote:


TetsujinOni wrote:

In LG it was actually

Core (equivalent to always available + fame access)
Limited (chronicle access)
Restricted (only authors can use, will not be allowed on chronicles)
Banned (not allowed for use in the campaign, at all.)
Limited was actually Chronicle +3 in LG

I was drawing the PFS parallels to the access levels, not referring to the types of access grants that were on ARs. There were multiple ways that AR access could be granted:

Adventure (purchase on AR or next three)
Regional (purchase on AR, next three, or after an adventure in region)
Metaregional (purchase on AR, next three, or after an adventure in a regional or metaregional in the metaregion)
Core (purchase on AR, next three, or after a Core adventure) (this one was the least common that I recall)
Open (like chronicle access in PFS).

Since PFS only has Core-equivalent adventures, and Adventure access was kinda getting phased out for unfriendliness by the end of LG, I was ignoring all of that complication, and only refering to the campaign documentation that spelled out the access list. Everything that was Limited access could be granted at any of the frequencies you were calling out.

I don't think we'd add joy to the game by going to the level of detail that adding Adventure vs. Open access on items on chronicles at this late date in the campaign.

I do think that using the four-tier system would make a better experience than Open/Closed (the LG term for Banned)

*

Thanks for asking our advice. For me personally, I just want to know that the money I invest in new books and products will be available in some form or another in the game I love, in the way I play it which is more often than not PFS. So if you hint at it, make us earn it through reasonable means like GM credit (and by this I dont mean Con attendence because thats still not something many of us can do, and please people... I know that start your own Con party line and would rather not hear it again.)

So I do trust you as the PFS Coordinator and really appreciate the job your doing. I especially applaud your addition of the 3 new playable races. The best I can say is keep listening to your fan base and not just the die-hards on the boards here. Furthermore I would add that the people who play PFS will continue to be happy if we know that our monetary investment is respected by the people who run PFS. If that means hinting at things to come then so be it. Most of us will be happy to take a wait and see stance if you continue to provide transparency in your decisions.

Thanks for the great job. :-)

Sczarni **** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman aka Coraith

Hello. On my hiatus from PFS! Hour drive to nearest game and tons of work to do at the Grandmas house, I continue to Troll the forums though!

After having met you, I can tell you care about the PFS community, its growth and happiness are important to you. I understand people are into instant gratification but that does not always go hand in hand with the health of PFS.

I say if you want to hold stuff back, ban things, or nerf things. Go for it. I may not always agree but I know you think it is for the best and that's good enough reason. You are the coordinator not me! You know things that are happening that as a player and GM do not. Keep up with what you are doing and PFS is going to continue to grow and be successful.

Thank you for all your hard work!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

First, Mike, you are doing a superb job. Due to the challenging decisions you have been making, PFS, as a whole, has developed a greater quality, and is becoming closer to what makes sense in Golarion. Keep up the great work!!

Second, "cool stuff" should be reserved for Chronicles. Whether that means named stuff and/or new stuff, that is up to you.

Third, PrCs should be reserved for Chronicles, if it makes sense. I believe Chris Mortika's post above articulates a good approach.

Thank you again for making PFS better, and for having the gumption to make the touch decisions that set PFS on a bright path to the future.

Andoran ****

Nani Pratt wrote:
*giggle* I've only ever been killed once by Kyle! Nyah!

I've been killed once in PFS, and now i've been told to Credit each of Kyle, Tim, Mike, and Mark. I'm somewhat pleased that it took all four of them to bring me down.

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