How do you deal with Min / Maxers?


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Dark Archive 4/5

I've seen it plenty of times:
- The Gunslinger that touches at +Bajillion (don't roll a 1) with OmgLots HP of damage a round.
- The Mo-ight-eric-iza-uid that seems to have so many class levels, its difficult to tell what he/she is going to throw at me each round.
- The Class that just seems to have so much AC that you can only hit on a Natural 20
- The person who seems to have their primary stats at 20, and their dumps at 5.
- The person who sits there silently through the entire thing, either reading a PF Book for a new thing to exploit, or his/her phone, then immediately jumps up and is the most animate creature you've seen as soon as you hear "Roll for Initiative."

How do you deal with these people? These are the kind of people who would have the best time if, after every combat (and possibly healing), the next words out of your mouth were "Roll for Initiative," instead of "talk to the guy remaining."

I'm not talking about the animate people during combat, more specifically the people that care more about how much damage they did in a module, than if they even accomplished their goal during the module. The person who seem to want to be fully animate in how they are being awesome for the battlefield, and saving the party's collective arse by themselves. These people ruin other people's day, and its annoying to a lot of people.

Personally, I do a few things:

Spoiler:

- I make sure I'm fully aware of how much power someone can have, and make sure that Min-Maxers can justify their position of having each feat/ability.
- I don't announce my results, making boring "I missed you" or "I hit you" remarks, while to the players that are really bringing the table alive outside of battle, providing animate epic moves on what their character or such is doing.
- I limit the amount of time that Min/Maxers can take. If they are looking up their stuff, I give them 30 seconds. I'm unfair at this, giving newer players full explainations, and being very forgiving (are you sure you want to jump around and take all those AoOs) for players being somewhat balanced. I let anything that the Min/Maxer states he is doing as the action, not allowing any RetConning, regardless if they gleam any extra information or not.
- I purposefully withhold information from Min/Maxers (they seem to always be the top of initiative), and make sure the newer players have the ability to know extra information. After all, talking is a free action, not an immediate action.
- I cut off any Min/Maxer that tries to convince his allies as obvious meatshields, to boost his "awesomeness" in combat. Same thing here, talking is a free action, not an immediate action.
- I will moderately maneuver the setup of the encounter so players that look like they have been left out have the chance to be awesome.

I don't like shutting down players, but the annoying ones are the ones I truly don't like at the table. Needless to say, regardless of what I do, it really doesn't harm them (they continue to come game after game), its the other people I'm mainly concerned about. I love it when people get involved into all aspects of the game, not just a single part of it.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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I don't play with them.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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I treat them just like any other player.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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If you have to ask yourself "how do I deal with _______", and the blank is filled with any player behavior other than "hurting other players' fun", then you need to re-assess your priorities as a GM.

I can't remember who said it, but someone in another thread said "If I can't stand what Player 1 is doing, but Players 2-6 are having fun with it, then I shouldn't be trying to stop it." I heartily agree.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

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Jonathan Cary wrote:
I treat them just like any other player.

This.

The reality is that different players want/get different things from Pathfinder. On the opposite end of the spectrum from what you've described, I have met/played with/ran for many players in Living Campaigns who has zero interest in combat and only want to RP. When fights start, they often (intentionally) fall into support roles or seek guidance from others because it just isn't their thing.

And I've known groups who found this just as aggravating/annoying/frustrating, especially in deadlier scenarios/campaigns.

There is no reason to use a "special rules set" for min-maxers. Some of your rules for dealing with them I hope you do for all tables and all players, regardless of their play style. (Giving everyone a chance to shine, limiting how long they can spend checking reference material on their turn, encouraging colorful descriptions of to-hit roll results, not letting any one player turn other PCs into their puppets, etc.)

The joy of organized play is that hopefully, scenarios have a little bit of something for everyone at the table (role-play, puzzle solving, story, combat). So if some players really just enjoy the combat, that's alright. There means more of the other stuff for those who want it.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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By the way:

Imper1um wrote:

- I purposefully withhold information from Min/Maxers (they seem to always be the top of initiative), and make sure the newer players have the ability to know extra information. After all, talking is a free action, not an immediate action.

- I cut off any Min/Maxer that tries to convince his allies as obvious meatshields, to boost his "awesomeness" in combat. Same thing here, talking is a free action, not an immediate action.

Aside from the total dick moves described (at least in the first of these two; the second I guess could be debatable based on circumstance), keep in mind the rules on talking:

Core Rules wrote:
...speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Imper1um wrote:
...saving the party's collective arse by themselves. These people ruin other people's day, and its annoying to a lot of people.

I'd like to point out how much it ruined my day yesterday when the uber-damage gunslinger saved the party's collective arse from the guy we were discussing having to run away from. I found it very annoying to be able to actually finish the mission.

/sarcasm

The Exchange 5/5

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sigh. this again. (not to detract from the OP, as I am sure they are upset about it, I just think they are directing thier upset at the wrong target.)

PCs don't kill players fun....Players kill (other) players fun.

if you have someone who is a jerk and give him an Iconic, he is still a jerk. He can still ruin everyones day. (and sometimes we can all be a jerk). If everyone at the table were to pass thier PCs one player to the left... you would still get jerk players being a jerk. He'd just be doing it with someone elses PC. And most likely complaining about it. And the food/weather/noise/etc.

Let's all try to NOT be that jerk player. Does this mean we should quit building (yeah, I'm using the hot button term) Min/Maxed PC's? nope. Give a Min/Max PC to a great player that is fun to play with an you know what? everyone has a fun time. Give a Sub-Par PC to a Jerk, and he'll find a way to reduce the fun at the table... it's part of being a jerk. (and I repeat, we all have a little of that jerk in us, really).

Let's all play nice. Have fun. Be someone everyone at your table enjoys playing a game with.

Please.

(end of rant)

Silver Crusade 2/5

If they are being disruptive, I'll find a way to cripple their character (grapple, trip, focused attacks, etc). If the table is having fun with it, I let it carry on and let the table have their fun.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Alexander_Damocles wrote:
If they are being disruptive, I'll find a way to cripple their character (grapple, trip, focused attacks, etc).

Er, wouldn't it be better to address this out-of-character? Ask them to stop whatever their disruptive behavior is?

Silver Crusade 2/5

Jiggy wrote:
Alexander_Damocles wrote:
If they are being disruptive, I'll find a way to cripple their character (grapple, trip, focused attacks, etc).
Er, wouldn't it be better to address this out-of-character? Ask them to stop whatever their disruptive behavior is?

I mean if it is a cheesed out build that annoys the rest of the table, I find a way to make it become a non issue.

If the *player* is being just rude and disruptive, that becomes something to handle OOC. Haven't had to do that yet, thankfully.

Lantern Lodge 4/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Frederick

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Imper1um wrote:

I've seen it plenty of times:

- The Gunslinger that touches at +Bajillion (don't roll a 1) with OmgLots HP of damage a round.
- The Mo-ight-eric-iza-uid that seems to have so many class levels, its difficult to tell what he/she is going to throw at me each round.
- The Class that just seems to have so much AC that you can only hit on a Natural 20
- The person who seems to have their primary stats at 20, and their dumps at 5.
- The person who sits there silently through the entire thing, either reading a PF Book for a new thing to exploit, or his/her phone, then immediately jumps up and is the most animate creature you've seen as soon as you hear "Roll for Initiative."

How do you deal with these people? These are the kind of people who would have the best time if, after every combat (and possibly healing), the next words out of your mouth were "Roll for Initiative," instead of "talk to the guy remaining."

I'm not talking about the animate people during combat, more specifically the people that care more about how much damage they did in a module, than if they even accomplished their goal during the module. The person who seem to want to be fully animate in how they are being awesome for the battlefield, and saving the party's collective arse by themselves. These people ruin other people's day, and its annoying to a lot of people.

Personally, I do a few things:
** spoiler omitted **...

You do realize that this is a living campaign with specific rules for character creation and administration. If its legal, its legal and there is really nothing you can do about it. Not sure why you feel you need to "deal" with them. Some people like the combat aspect of the game more than the roleplaying aspect. What is wrong with that? Some people like ketchup on pizza, is that wrong because you might not like it? If you don't like running for these people or playing with them, then stop playing a living campaign and start a home game with ultra restrictive character creation and administration rules.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Alexander_Damocles wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Alexander_Damocles wrote:
If they are being disruptive, I'll find a way to cripple their character (grapple, trip, focused attacks, etc).
Er, wouldn't it be better to address this out-of-character? Ask them to stop whatever their disruptive behavior is?
I mean if it is a cheesed out build that annoys the rest of the table, I find a way to make it become a non issue.

So, the PC's capabilities are directly causing players to have less fun? I.e., the guy announces his damage and people make sounds of disgust while frowning and shaking their heads?

Assuming for a moment that this happens*, I still think it would be better handled out of character. During a bathroom break, discreetly mention to the player that some people are feeling trivialized (or whatever) and ask if he'd reign himself in a bit (without endangering the party, of course). This way, not only can you solve the issue for your own table, but you increase the chances of better experiences at that player's future tables. Wouldn't that be a better solution overall?

*:
I say this because for all the "his build is ruining other people's fun" that I see on the boards, I have never seen a fellow player react negatively to powerful characters. Sometimes there's a head-shake, but it's always been accompanied by a friendly chuckle and a smile. The gap between some GMs' claims and my own experience is bigger in this regard than (I think) in any other. The difference is so complete that I sometimes have to wonder if the GMs are simply projecting their own feelings onto their players, thinking they're not having fun when really the GM is the only one annoyed.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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I will agree that the problem is not PC min/maxing but rather it is with the Player of the PC not playing well with others.

This can take many forms:

  • Attempting to control other people's actions
  • Not sharing spotlight
  • Griefing (intentionally stomping on others fun / goals)
  • Taking actions that put the party at risk (such as opening previously untouched doors in combat or looking for a random guy to rob / shake down / terrorize)

I ascribe these behaviors to a lack of knowing that things can be magnificently better than what this Player is currently experiencing. This is a social game and when played as a group leads to much richer, vibrant and overall more awesome experiences. I would suggest trying to look for the teachable moments to incredibly gently suggest to the player that there are other ways of doing things.

In game I would work to minimize the 'reward' that they get out of their actions while always doing everything exactly within the rules as written.

  • If they want spotlight, minimize it.
  • If they want to control others, step in and let the targets of their control know that they are free to make what ever decisions they want.
  • If they are griefing then put them on notice that such behavior is not accepted and exactly why it is not accepted.
  • If they take endangering actions then let then solely face the consequences of those action where ever possible.

Hopefully the combined use of 'teachable moments' and lessened rewards will support the Player in expanding their options in their play style.

If it does not and you have done all that you think you can and the player has a negative impact on your gaming community (players, GMs, store owners, etc.) and the player does not add anything to the community then and only then I would suggest letting the Player know the following:

  • A gaming community is a community.
  • Communities can only thrive when all members contribute to the overall awesomeness of the community.
  • If a person only takes from the community then the whole community suffers for it.
  • A person who only takes can not remain a part of the community and will be asked to find some other way to occupy their time (read they will no longer be welcome at events sponsored / offered by this community).

After you give this information to the player then wait and watch.

If they change their behavior and start giving back then there is no action that needs to be taken.

If they keep doing the same thing then you need to ban them from all events sponsored by the community. They are, of course, welcome to coordinate and run their own events as they are not banned from PFS play. Word of players like this does spread and is shared among the various coordinator in the overall PFS community

TL;DR sometimes you have to scrape the barnacles off your boat to keep it moving

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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For those in my region the whole "Community" speech is something I have taken to giving early and often to players in support of build a strong and more resilient gaming community in San Diego.

No one in my region should take my prior post as an indication that they are "on notice".

:-)

Rock on Southern California as we blaze a path of awesomeness!

Silver Crusade 2/5

Eric Brittain wrote:

For those in my region the whole "Community" speech is something I have taken to giving early and often to players in support of build a strong and more resilient gaming community in San Diego.

No one in my region should take my prior post as an indication that they are "on notice".

:-)

Rock on Southern California as we blaze a path of awesomeness!

Sounds like a speech I've heard in the Bay Area!

Dark Archive 4/5

I'm not talking about people who specifically min/maxers. I guess I should have said "Spotlighters", but that's in the past. I'm talking about players that simply just want the spotlight, and they don't care who they step on at the table to be at the spotlight. The kind of people that if you don't deal with their antics, you end up chasing away some great players.

=/ But, I suppose most people seem to skip over the entire post and just comment on the subject.

The big thing is that I can't "ban" people from PFS. That would be me reciprocating too broadly. I also can't stop players from sitting at my tables. In PFS, I encounter new players all the time, and some come with this specific mindset that they are going to sit down and be the awesome. I don't mind people doing things that make them look awesome, what I do mind is when players do it at the expense of other players.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I have traveled to the North so that the Painlord and I could meet and share ideas on how to better serve our respective communities.

I have certainly learned much from watching him, especially having watched him in action at this years Kubla Con.

My singular goal is to foster a strong community with a inclusive, generous and fun loving culture that does not rely on any one single member. That will organically draw in new members by:

  • the sheer social awesomeness of the community
  • the incredible stories that are shared when a game is played
  • the way we make each other more than what we were before we joined the community

This is my quest and my crusade.

The Exchange 5/5

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I know a player that has several PCs that people would call Min/Maxed.

He has one PC that has combat skills. As he says "this guy kills things. Fast. He can't do anything else. Just kill things." RPing? Yeah, the PC has no social skills. The player will spend most of a game "sharpening weapons" - some new players think the player is shy. He's just in character. When it comes to doing his faction missions, he often fails. Why? No skills, and he doesn't take help from the other players - because his PC wouldn't.

When he runs his Armored Combat Cleric - he is fast and talkative. In everyones face, in every monsters face and very out going (high CHA).

When he runs his Blaster Caster, he's Mr. Know-it-all, master of all knowledge.

And whatever PC he runs, people enjoy playing with him. When he sits at a table, he never wants for a group.

And his PC's are Min/Maxed to the hilt. "Playing up? sure - XXX is in the party. We got this."

Grand Lodge 4/5

Imper1um wrote:

I'm not talking about people who specifically min/maxers. I guess I should have said "Spotlighters", but that's in the past. I'm talking about players that simply just want the spotlight, and they don't care who they step on at the table to be at the spotlight. The kind of people that if you don't deal with their antics, you end up chasing away some great players.

=/ But, I suppose most people seem to skip over the entire post and just comment on the subject.

The big thing is that I can't "ban" people from PFS. That would be me reciprocating too broadly. I also can't stop players from sitting at my tables. In PFS, I encounter new players all the time, and some come with this specific mindset that they are going to sit down and be the awesome. I don't mind people doing things that make them look awesome, what I do mind is when players do it at the expense of other players.

A couple of comments. On reading your spoiler in the first post, and given that I tend toward min.max (not a perfect optimizer, but I can still annoy GMs), my own reaction is that I would pull out a copy of the GtPFSOP, and remind the GM that the "Don't Be a Jerk" rule needs to run both ways. Some of your "remedies" struck me as being extremely ill advised.

But, for spotlighters, you need to reread the Guide to PFSOP, and consider a couple of the sections, specifically the Do Not Bully Other Players and Do Not Cheat areas.

Overall, if I am running in Spotlighter mode, usually pointing it out to me will rein me in, as I try not to, but am only human, and can forget.

Indeed, one of the issues I have as a GM is that I tend to not want my NPCs to lose. Although I manage to usually rein that in on my own, having a "good" NPC get neutered/taken down before they can actually do anything can be ... irritating.

Spoiler:
Running The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, and one of the combats is between the PCs and a single opponent whose schtick is attacking from invisibility. Really irritating when the Cleric pulls an Invisibility Purge out of their rear end, pretty much turning the NPC into a non-issue. Sigh.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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As a GM sometimes you get to be the window but most of the time you get to be the bug.

I would suggest attempting to lose awesomely so that players will have something to remember and talk about later.

2/5

In the few PFS games I played, there were a few people who were "Min/Max'ers" And I don't really see them as a problem. Everyone gets something different from the game. Furthermore, when you're running a PFS open game, you *know* you're going to get a different group of players each time. Some are just going to build their characters (combat) wise better than others. I had one who min/max'd for his day job...getting a 25 on a take 10 at level 1. More power to him.

Now, out of those, there's one that was probably pushing the envelope of being a jerk. I never make any rash decisions. Sometimes the session is almost over (and I may never see that player again). Other times, another player or the group deals with it (which is what happened here...nothing like peer pressure). Sometimes a suggestion or compromise solves the issue. Using the "I'm the GM and this is how you should play" is the tool of last resort.

1/5

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Jiggy wrote:

If you have to ask yourself "how do I deal with _______", and the blank is filled with any player behavior other than "hurting other players' fun", then you need to re-assess your priorities as a GM.

I can't remember who said it, but someone in another thread said "If I can't stand what Player 1 is doing, but Players 2-6 are having fun with it, then I shouldn't be trying to stop it." I heartily agree.

Good advice. I must keep this in mind.

I personally run into the issue of players not role-playing their characters at all more than min/max players doing too much damage.

2/5

Yeah, that tends to be my experience as well. Sometimes those who don't RP very much, or at all, happen to be min/max'ers, but not always.

To play Devils Advocate, I will admit...there's been one or two occasions in the 1.5 years I've been playing Pathfinder, over several groups, where I run into a player who is so min/max'd that he completely outshines the party (Such as being able to take out the bosses in one round on a fairly consistant basis). In homebrew/APs/etc, the DM has more liberty to either address the issue with the player directly, create encounters that play to other party member's strengths, etc.

In PFS, all you can do is enforce the rules. If someone has legitimately made a pwnsome character, you just gotta roll with it even if he totally outshine's everyone else in combat. Thankfully, PFS tend to have a balance of RP and skill checks, so chances are the other players will get to shine in their own way too. It's only one session, and chances are if that player is hogging the spotlight and being a jerk about it, he won't get invited back to many other PFS sessions.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Imper1um wrote:

I'm not talking about people who specifically min/maxers. I guess I should have said "Spotlighters", but that's in the past. I'm talking about players that simply just want the spotlight, and they don't care who they step on at the table to be at the spotlight. The kind of people that if you don't deal with their antics, you end up chasing away some great players.

=/ But, I suppose most people seem to skip over the entire post and just comment on the subject.

The big thing is that I can't "ban" people from PFS. That would be me reciprocating too broadly. I also can't stop players from sitting at my tables. In PFS, I encounter new players all the time, and some come with this specific mindset that they are going to sit down and be the awesome. I don't mind people doing things that make them look awesome, what I do mind is when players do it at the expense of other players.

I'm calling BS.

Did you forget what it was you listed as problem behaviors? Let's review:
• Dealing too much damage
• Complicated build
• Too high of an AC
• Stats with 20/5 spreads
• Only cares about combat

You list five things as being problems. Only the last one is actually a behavior at the table - everything else you listed is purely mechanical. And even that last one isn't disruptive to other players - depending on how checked-out they are it could be disrespectful to the GM, but that's not what you're now suddenly claiming to have been talking about.

In your original post, you then go on to clarify that you're "not talking about the animate people during combat, more specifically the people that care more about how much damage they did in a module, than if they even accomplished their goal during the module." So you actually made an effort to specify that you were talking about how powerful their PCs are, yet now you're claiming that you weren't really talking about min-maxing?

In your list of solutions that you employ, there some good things and some inappropriate things, but very little to imply the type of behavior you're now claiming to have been talking about. There's an implication of illegal builds or taking too long on their turn, but nothing to suggest that they're displaying their "awesomeness" at the expense of other players, as you now claim.

And now you want to say that people must not have read your post (instead just reading the subject), despite the fact that people (myself included) have provided line-item responses to individual parts of your post? Bull s+@~.

No, you were very explicit in your complaint being with min-maxed builds. Then you didn't get the support you expected, and even got called out on some of your inappropriate activities, so now you're back-pedaling in an effort to save face and shift the blame, saying other people just aren't reading closely.

Own up to your mistakes.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Jiggy wrote:
I say this because for all the "his build is ruining other people's fun" that I see on the boards, I have never seen a fellow player react negatively to powerful characters. Sometimes there's a head-shake, but it's always been accompanied by a friendly chuckle and a smile. The gap between some GMs' claims and my own experience is bigger in this regard than (I think) in any other. The difference is so complete that I sometimes have to wonder if the GMs are simply projecting their own feelings onto their players, thinking they're not having fun when really the GM is the only one annoyed.

Really? Crazy! Same world different realities. And we play in the same society.

I've had a few play experiences personally with obnoxious spotlight hogging power characters that put the rest of the party on vacation as they single handedly stomp through scenarios.

I didn't have fun.

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sveden wrote:

Really? Crazy! Same world different realities. And we play in the same society.

I've had a few play experiences personally with obnoxious spotlight hogging power characters that put the rest of the party on vacation as they single handedly stomp through scenarios.

I didn't have fun.

Just to make sure your example is what I was talking about not seeing: was the player being a spotlight-hog (or otherwise disruptive/selfish), or was it the build itself that made things un-fun for you? If the former, that's not what I was saying I've never seen (I've seen it). If the latter, it would be the first.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Jiggy wrote:
sveden wrote:

Really? Crazy! Same world different realities. And we play in the same society.

I've had a few play experiences personally with obnoxious spotlight hogging power characters that put the rest of the party on vacation as they single handedly stomp through scenarios.

I didn't have fun.

Just to make sure your example is what I was talking about not seeing: was the player being a spotlight-hog (or otherwise disruptive/selfish), or was it the build itself that made things un-fun for you? If the former, that's not what I was saying I've never seen (I've seen it). If the latter, it would be the first.

You may see a difference in how the tool is used there, I don't. I'm only here to assert my reality, not deny yours.

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sveden wrote:
I'm only here to assert my reality, not deny yours.

To assert one reality, when it is mutually exclusive with another, is to deny the latter.

Which is fine, of course. The sample size of my own experience is too small to be assumed to be representative of the population. Hence being interested in others' experience.*

*:
Tangentially, I think you may be interchanging the term "reality" with "experience".

Grand Lodge 4/5

Jiggy wrote:
Tangentially, I think you may be interchanging the term "reality" with "experience".

Nawww... you ever seen Rashomon?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

No...

Grand Lodge 4/5

Its really good! I'll lend it to you sometime.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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I saw it. I probably got an entirely different message from it than you.

Um.

:)

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Jiggy wrote:
No...

Think of it as the original version of Hero, regarding the various interpreted viewpoints of a singular event.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

If so, that would seem to support my idea that the different "realities" that sveden keeps referencing are really just different experiences/perceptions of the same singular, unchanging reality.

Dark Archive 4/5

If it's a player that is making things less fun for everyone else, you talk to them. If it's a build that's making things too easy for the party but it's only annoying you, meh?

If the player's build really bothers you, talk to them afterwards and let them tone it down; however, if everyone is having fun with it, there is not a problem.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

RE: Min/Maxers

After they tell me all the cool things their PC can do, I look them in the eye and deadpan, "Neat. You know what this means, right? You fall in a pit." This is followed by laughter.

I have yet to drop anyone in a pit. I'm working on it though.

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Leg o' Lamb wrote:
I have yet to drop anyone in a pit.

Only because create pit is in the APG instead of CRB. If NPC casters started throwing that around...

5/5 5/55/55/5

sveden wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Tangentially, I think you may be interchanging the term "reality" with "experience".
Nawww... you ever seen Rashomon?

Ooo i remember "in a grove" from college. For the essay i rejected the multiple interpretations and just went with the idea that the bandit is a Ronin, the samurai killed himself because he couldn't bear the shame of loosing the fight, and the wife really did sleep with the bandit but was denying it because she didn't want to look bad.

Professor headdesked "The entire POINT to the story is that its not supposed to make sense..." looks at essay "and this does!"

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Jiggy wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
I have yet to drop anyone in a pit.
Only because create pit is in the APG instead of CRB. If NPC casters started throwing that around...

APG is core assumption now...

HM, maybe this is PFS Quest submission number two. Nothing but pit traps with one set of Bracers of Brachiation found at the beginning.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

DC 30 hidden chest with a set of grappling arrows, a bow and some rope. Then 17 pit traps and a sorcerer who casts nothing but create pit. It'll be awesome, I swear! ;)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Kyle Baird had an interesting comment about min/maxers at Gen Con.

Something along the lines of:

If you want hard mode, I can run hard mode. If you want to play roleplay mode, I can run roleplay mode. If you want easy mode, I can run easy mode.

I kinda see it similarly.

And the kicker is, you can supply the different modes at the same table with different player requirements.

The problem isn't the build though, its the player's motivations behind the build.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Azarius2010 wrote:
Some people like ketchup on pizza, is that wrong because you might not like it?

Yes. This.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

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Jiggy wrote:
DC 30 hidden chest with a set of grappling arrows, a bow and some rope. Then 17 pit traps and a sorcerer who casts nothing but create pit. It'll be awesome, I swear! ;)

No, no, no.

Master Summoner who knows Create Pit and has min/maxed for a 20 Charisma pre-gear. Creates pits, throws in the most annoying critter on his Summon Monster list after the PC. Rinse & Repeat.

Sczarni 2/5

bdk86 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
DC 30 hidden chest with a set of grappling arrows, a bow and some rope. Then 17 pit traps and a sorcerer who casts nothing but create pit. It'll be awesome, I swear! ;)

No, no, no.

Master Summoner who knows Create Pit and has min/maxed for a 20 Charisma pre-gear. Creates pits, throws in the most annoying critter on his Summon Monster list after the PC. Rinse & Repeat.

While the summoner kicks back under Greater Invisibility.

Sczarni 2/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

Kyle Baird had an interesting comment about min/maxers at Gen Con.

Something along the lines of:

If you want hard mode, I can run hard mode. If you want to play roleplay mode, I can run roleplay mode. If you want easy mode, I can run easy mode.

I kinda see it similarly.

And the kicker is, you can supply the different modes at the same table with different player requirements.

The problem isn't the build though, its the player's motivations behind the build.

+1 this.

The thing is, I've seen some ridiculously optimized builds that were just as ridiculously fun to play with/GM for. Yes, they steamrolled the encounters so fast it made my head spin. But that just meant that it left more room for the ridiculous RP that came from it all. Of course, I guess I'm blessed to be from an area rife with good roleplayers, so the crew made the best of it and we all had a great laugh.

I've also been at the tables with the same level of optimization, and a real lack of fun. Even if I think the build is total cheese, I don't blame the build itself for detracting from peoples' fun. I blame the player behind the character stepping up and hogging the spotlight, talking over the other players, and generally being disruptive. Thankfully, I also seem to game in an area where this is fairly rare.

Min/maxers in and of themselves aren't the problem, it's the people that are being disruptive and taking over the scenario, rather than letting the others shine.

I'll be the first to admit I'm even guilty of stepping up to grab the spotlight when maybe I should've sat back.

Lesson Learned:
I just recently played in a scenario where my Duelist's build was absolutely perfect to completely trivialize a fight, therefore ending it with the monster doing no damage to anyone. My punishment? The immediate next fight, the BBEG that hadn't even seen me fight throughout the entire scenario waited for me to Crane Wing the first attack as it easily hit my AC, then waited until the iterative attack to smite-crit on a x4 weapon taking me from full health to 3hp from dead, then next turn channeled negative to kill me dead, dead, "He's dead Jim", dead.

EDIT: I should probably emphasize that I'm not complaining here. That character was raised by the good graces of his partymates and, if anything, it taught me a very valuable lesson. Crane Wing the crits, not the average hits. Also, never end a turn next to an opponent with multiple attacks. That's what Spring Attack is for.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

Jack-of-Blades wrote:
bdk86 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
DC 30 hidden chest with a set of grappling arrows, a bow and some rope. Then 17 pit traps and a sorcerer who casts nothing but create pit. It'll be awesome, I swear! ;)

No, no, no.

Master Summoner who knows Create Pit and has min/maxed for a 20 Charisma pre-gear. Creates pits, throws in the most annoying critter on his Summon Monster list after the PC. Rinse & Repeat.

While the summoner kicks back under Greater Invisibility.

I'll note that the Summoner could also benefit from knowing Grease in this situation.

Sczarni 2/5

bdk86 wrote:
Jack-of-Blades wrote:
bdk86 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
DC 30 hidden chest with a set of grappling arrows, a bow and some rope. Then 17 pit traps and a sorcerer who casts nothing but create pit. It'll be awesome, I swear! ;)

No, no, no.

Master Summoner who knows Create Pit and has min/maxed for a 20 Charisma pre-gear. Creates pits, throws in the most annoying critter on his Summon Monster list after the PC. Rinse & Repeat.

While the summoner kicks back under Greater Invisibility.
I'll note that the Summoner could also benefit from knowing Grease in this situation.

As well as a wand of Blindness/Deafness. And a good UMD to make use of it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

bdk86 wrote:


No, no, no.

Master Summoner who knows Create Pit and has min/maxed for a 20 Charisma pre-gear. Creates pits, throws in the most annoying critter on his Summon Monster list after the PC. Rinse & Repeat.

If my scenario submission had been accepted last year you would have met this already (albeit without the 20 Cha). I designed it using a normal summoner with an eidolon that had a climb speed, improved slam and combat reflexes. Mantraps and minions completed the package. :-)

2/5

I would like to chip in that, in my experience, it's the player behaviors that cause problems, not powerful characters. As a pristine example of this, there is a regular at my FLGS that says "I've got this!" so often it's almost become a catch phrase for him. He insists on handling things by himself, and always tries to show up the other party members.

The kicker? He actually sucks at optimizing. This means there is never actually any threat to the enjoyment of others, as he can't really do what he wants to. Nonetheless, I suspect of someone were to sit down an optimize a character for him, he would quickly take over the table without GM intervention.

In summary, deal with the players, not the characters.

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