Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I don't ignore the difficulty of encounters to make things easy. I do, however, use tactics or a very small number of fudged dice in Tier 1-5 games to prevent character death from weird corner cases, like crits with heavy picks or things like that. Generally, when we start getting into 3-7s and 5-9s, I get much harsher and stop pulling punches. At that level, you can afford a raise and you should know enough to avoid dying most of the time.
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I don't ignore the difficulty of encounters to make things easy. I do, however, use tactics or a very small number of fudged dice in Tier 1-5 games to prevent character death from weird corner cases, like crits with heavy picks or things like that. Generally, when we start getting into 3-7s and 5-9s, I get much harsher and stop pulling punches. At that level, you can afford a raise and you should know enough to avoid dying most of the time.
I can agree with this. Especially at sub-tier 1-2 and I know its a table of brand new folk.
I will be much more free with suggestions and help.
But if we allow this kind of coddling to go on through level 7 (or worse, I saw it in a sub-tier 10-11 game at a special I played), are we really doing any favors to those players?
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But if we allow this kind of coddling to go on through level 7 (or worse, I saw it in a sub-tier 10-11 game at a special I played), are we really doing any favors to those players?
If the players are having fun, why not? Not everyone finds hard as fun - or characters being lost, fun, even if fully "justified." Indeed most people I know are perfectly happy with the illusion of danger rather than actual danger.
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But if we allow this kind of coddling to go on through level 7 (or worse, I saw it in a sub-tier 10-11 game at a special I played), are we really doing any favors to those players?
If the players are having fun, why not? Not everyone finds hard as fun - or characters being lost, fun, even if fully "justified." Indeed most people I know are perfectly happy with the illusion of danger rather than actual danger.
But you can do that without coddling.
If that coddled player goes to a convention, they will have a rude awakening (I have seen this many times at conventions--not because I or another GM played "hard mode" but because they just ran things at about an average level of difficulty).
If average level of difficulty is too difficult for you, then you've been coddled, and it wasn't fair to you, or to the other players who now have to survive in spite of your lack of rules savvy or tactical acumen.
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Another is when I GM and a player rolls all their attacks at once "to save time".
I mean, how much time does it really save? Maybe 3 seconds per roll? You still have to evaluate the results. I absolutely encourage rolling the damage dice at the same time as the attack roll, but rolling more than one attack at the same time is really not following the rules of the game.
How much time it takes depends on the character.
When I have a pouncing eidolon and several summoned monsters it can save a fair amount of time.
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Easy mode games GMs ignore that their creatures have +17 stealths, potions of invisibility, potions of fly, the ability to summon reinforcements, and generally don't play bad guys intelligently. Another occurrence is that the rules aren't enforced which would hurt PCs (such as cover against archers, charging through difficult terrain (or allies), etc).
This is how easy mode games happen.
Alternatively, players will complain about the "GM is being a dick about the rules" because you begin enforcing such rules. It's not all the GM's fault.
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Rocks fall, people die.
If I am taking a full round attack action on you, and I'm evil, and no one else is in range, you're getting all the attacks unless tactic's say I leave people alive.I personally don't enjoy hand holding, but if people want to have their hand's held, than do so.
I might have missed it. Could you tell me where it states that evil automatically means that the NPC is a blood thirsty killer?
And/or why they seem to have short attention spans - that is, cannot see the benefit of moving now to be in a better position next round?
And it would seem to facilitate/enable the thoughts that some have on Paladin actions - that is, if it detects as evil I kill it (regardless of anything else going on). If the developers and authors are working to remove that stereotype, how does having the NPCs act in a manner that justifies that activity/stereotype help?
Yes, there is a bit of sarcasm in the lines above (what can I say, I failed my Will save).
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For PFS I follow the tactics listed for the monster. I never initiate a coup de grace or use a death effect/animate dead unless the scenario specifically calls for it. As for finishing off unconscious players with iterative attacks or what have you, it depends. A couple of instances I've had happen/seen happen:
1. Party separated, lone PC gets attacked by a stupid beast out for food. Tries to fight it alone, gets smacked around. Why would the beast do anything but eat him?
2. 5 PC's against a big bad with more intelligence. One PC stabs it with the only thing capable of killing it; it's going to go all out on him.
3. Creatures like Shadows whose only goal is to drain the vitality of others and make more of themselves. It's going to keep attacking the same thing until it's drained, or the thing that subjects it to it's greatest weakness.
4. Intelligent monsters against a group of PC's. They do stop attacking downed characters because they are no longer a threat, and move on to the remaining PC's. However, if downed PC's keep coming back and it's not possible to remove the source of healing, then yes, they are going to make sure someone stays down. Likewise, if you are brought back to consciousness and are on 2 hp, prone, and swing at something... I'm going to smack you.
I try to play my monsters like I think they should be played. I don't go out of my way to kill players, but I've seen an alarming amount of 'coddling', where GM's simply and utterly refuse to kill PC's. Death is part of the game. If you take away the risk, then to me that kills a lot of the fun. Not everyone is like that of course, and there is nothing wrong with preferring a 'softer' approach.
I'd have to agree with Dezhem, I don't go out of my way to kill off PC's but if they're going to do something that they should know is extremely stupid (Like charging uphill at an Ogre Fighter wielding a Halberd with Combat Reflexes) then you're going to get smacked down. Same thing as with a character who gets healed to above 0 hit points and tries to attack the creature from a prone position, you're going to get hit.
I don't coddle PC's. I'll be graceful and considerate if the dice just aren't in their favor but I'm not going to go out of my way to keep them from dying. The game loses that thrill of 'Oh s#!%, I've got ten hit points left and that dragon just took a really deep breath...'
Color me jaded, but I leaned how to play D&D back with the Ravenloft boxed set. When you had to bring a stack of characters with you every night.
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Easy mode games GMs ignore that their creatures have +17 stealths, potions of invisibility, potions of fly, the ability to summon reinforcements, and generally don't play bad guys intelligently. Another occurrence is that the rules aren't enforced which would hurt PCs (such as cover against archers, charging through difficult terrain (or allies), etc).
This is how easy mode games happen.
This is not at all what I'm talking about.
The subject of this thread is hitting a character when they're down.
You still play intelligent characters intelligently, you still follow the tactics (where appropriate), you still do everything to drop a character.
But there's nothing in the rules or any tactics I've seen that says a bad guy will continue attacking someone after they drop. If they did say that, the "easy mode" I'm talking about would still need to follow that tactic, because that's what the tactics say and this is PFS.
I'm talking about you, as a GM, having to make a decision on whether the bad guy would either (a) follow through with an attack on a downed character because you think that's what the monster would do, or (b) consider what kind of other things he might do to prevent a player losing a character where they had no chance for salvation.
The point is all the circumstances should be considered once a character drops. The game is meant to be fun. Consider carefully which side you want to err on, even if it means you need to look around the table and gauge your players for the first time, because that's the best you can do. By that point, you're likely to have at least some feel for how your players want to play.
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i roll randomly the attack of unintelligent beasts every turn... that makes me provoke AoO a very often and if a unconcious pc/npc result on the roll, then nothing to do... Fate has decide what´s next
I remember trying to do this once, and I wasn't really sure whether the mindless guy would roll randomly for each hit to decide who gets attacked, or stay on whoever they were on if it meant the alternative was an AoO, or stay on whoever they were no matter what.
Does survival instinct kick in, even if they don't "think" about it?
And are the encounters in scenarios written with that kind of thing in mind? Universally?
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My experience has taught me that the threat of death is the important part of the game, not the death itself. You only need enough death to create a suitable level of threat that shows that the player's actions have consequences. One issue is that eveyone's threshold is different, but in general, most people hate loosing things, like characters, that they've put work into.
I've found that NPCs who know the world and its workings, tend to finish off characters if it'll remove a threat (or at least make it harder to make that character a threat again) if the removal doesn't place them in further danger. I can understand not wanting the final attack to kill the player outright, so if they're separated enough from the player group, I could see the villain forgoing the final attack that should mechanically kill them, to make a coup de grace that will almost certainly do the trick. More cinematic in my mind.
Most animals won't risk significant harm to themselves unless they are direly hungry, sick, frightened, or defending the young. It's too difficult to heal from such wounds and leaves them less able to defend themselves. When talking about food and depending on the animal (or monster), I'd see them as likely trying to feed on the character or drag the body off elsewhere to feed in peace. Sick animals often have poor judgement, frightened ones lash out until allowed to remove themselves from the situation, and those defending the young lash out until the threat is gone.
Frankly, I see it more boiling down to the DM's style. Everyone plays and runs games differently. Even those DMing styles that I might not like are still good styles, because they fit a different personality type and play style.
100% This!
I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet (I got through half the posts) but if you're in a world where magic can heal a character almost instantaneously I would think it would a smart move to make sure the guy on the floor stays there--permanently. Sure, if there is an immediate threat it would be dumb to do anything but fight, but if there is even a moment that would allow you to finish off a foe then you should take it. If the PCs want to avoid this they better learn tactics. This came up in my last game session when two characters went down and the first thing the barbarian did was maneuver to defend them. Don't rely on the "mercy" of the GM, but on the skills of your party to keep each other alive.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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While yes, coup de grace makes sense from an enemy's standpoint, we also have to realize that we are playing a game with long-reaching repercussions. People will spend months getting their character even to third level, and at third level a raise dead is a difficult thing to manage. To my mind, there's not a lot of point in killing that character if they're already down - it may lose some verisimilitude, but it also keeps things fun for everybody.
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I'm considering saying something like this when I sit down at a table as a GM from now on:
"Hi, I'm going to be your GM. A couple things you should know:
"One, I run rules as written and I roll all my dice out in the open unless it is specifically supposed to be hidden (like rolling a Disguise check for you). This means if you get crit, you get crit. On the upside, it also means that if you one-shot the bad guy, he'll stay down. There will be no magic sliding scale AC.
"Two, I strive to be tough but fair. I don't always achieve that goal, but I try. Low level bad guys, like inexperienced players, will make mistakes. Higher level opponents will not be so careless. If you charge into a fight with a raging barbarian swinging a greataxe, your character may die. If you decide to eat several AoOs to get into flanking position, your character may die. If you neglect to cast a spell defensively, you may lose that spell. And your character may die. I will do my best to warn you of such dangers...once. It will be on you to take that advice or learn from your mistakes.
"If you don't feel comfortable with any of the above, I will not be offended if you wish to move to another table."
Also please note that, for all my tough talk, I'm pretty much a cakewalk GM. Not through lack of trying. I'm just woefully incompetent at 1 v 6 person fights.
I'm considering saying something like this when I sit down at a table as a GM from now on:
"Hi, I'm going to be your GM. A couple things you should know:
"One, I run rules as written and I roll all my dice out in the open unless it is specifically supposed to be hidden (like rolling a Disguise check for you). This means if you get crit, you get crit. On the upside, it also means that if you one-shot the bad guy, he'll stay down. There will be no magic sliding scale AC.
"Two, I strive to be tough but fair. I don't always achieve that goal, but I try. Low level bad guys, like inexperienced players, will make mistakes. Higher level opponents will not be so careless. If you charge into a fight with a raging barbarian swinging a greataxe, your character may die. If you decide to eat several AoOs to get into flanking position, your character may die. If you neglect to cast a spell defensively, you may lose that spell. And your character may die. I will do my best to warn you of such dangers...once. It will be on you to take that advice or learn from your mistakes.
"If you don't feel comfortable with any of the above, I will not be offended if you wish to move to another table."
Also please note that, for all my tough talk, I'm pretty much a cakewalk GM. Not through lack of trying. I'm just woefully incompetent at 1 v 6 person fights.
This is how I try to play it as well. I go out of my way to make sure the PCs have all the tools and knowledge they need, but once the dice start rolling its up to them. I do all my rolls out in the open and I applaud PCs that take down dudes in one swing. I WANT my players to win, but that doesn't mean I'll let them. Their victories and defeats are by their own hands. This is also how I like to play as well.
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I'm considering saying something like this when I sit down at a table as a GM from now on:
"Hi, I'm going to be your GM. A couple things you should know:
"One, I run rules as written and I roll all my dice out in the open unless it is specifically supposed to be hidden (like rolling a Disguise check for you). This means if you get crit, you get crit. On the upside, it also means that if you one-shot the bad guy, he'll stay down. There will be no magic sliding scale AC.
"Two, I strive to be tough but fair. I don't always achieve that goal, but I try. Low level bad guys, like inexperienced players, will make mistakes. Higher level opponents will not be so careless. If you charge into a fight with a raging barbarian swinging a greataxe, your character may die. If you decide to eat several AoOs to get into flanking position, your character may die. If you neglect to cast a spell defensively, you may lose that spell. And your character may die. I will do my best to warn you of such dangers...once. It will be on you to take that advice or learn from your mistakes.
"If you don't feel comfortable with any of the above, I will not be offended if you wish to move to another table."
Also please note that, for all my tough talk, I'm pretty much a cakewalk GM. Not through lack of trying. I'm just woefully incompetent at 1 v 6 person fights.
The authors frequently don't help much with their written tactics. The NPCs also frequently can't deal with any outside-the-box PC tactics at all. They just die in place.