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Urgent Ruling Needed - Foresight Subschool


Rules Questions


The foresight sub-school has a supernatural ability called Prescience.

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you
may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before
your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the
result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do
not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You
can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 +
your Intelligence modifier.

I have played a divination wizard up to level 13 when, at the beginning of the last game, the GM railroads me into a situation where I wake up with a cut on my wrist and I have a permanent 6 negative levels (not removable) and all my equipment missing.

When I expressed my discontent, I was informed that I was "cheating" by using Prescience for my skill rolls when it states that Prescience can only be used at the beginning of your turn. The GM's argument is that a turn system only applies to combat, hence I can only use Prescience in combat.

I have been using it for skills outside of combat: diplomacy, acrobatics, etc. This makes sense to me: you have a 6th sense that you are about to trip and you can make two d20 rolls for acrobatics. Or in diplomacy, where you can anticipate the NPC's response and sway the argument in your favor.

My question is:

Is Prescience usable for skill rolls outside of a combat situation? Another thread seems to suggest that I can: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2tl2?Foresight-School

Thank you!

Sczarni

you're both right.

He's more correct though since he's the GM.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

It doesn't have to be in combat. People don't (usually) track rounds during social situations, but that doesn't mean they're not there. Even the Diplomacy skill speaks of "rounds of interaction" when "making requests", and the Bluff skill takes "at least 1 round".

So: Prescience works perfectly well outside combat.

But you may have used it wrong anyway: Prescience doesn't allow you to take the best of 2 rolls. You either roll normally, OR you take the result of the D20 you rolled at the start of your turn. You can't roll to see what you get, and then choose to take the Prescience roll instead.

***

Regardless of this, your GM definitely went about the situation in the wrong way. He should have informed you (out of game) that he thought you had been using the ability wrong, not punished your character in-game to such an extreme extent.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Tell him that you run back to town in during the next two minutes. Your speed is per round and if you are only in rounds during combat, then you can move as fast as you want when not in combat.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

Leave this game. That's all I have to say.

Andoran

setzer9999 wrote:
Leave this game. That's all I have to say.

I would address the issue by mentioning this thread, and what people pointed out here. If he seems to be as arbitrary as to permanently penalize a player on a ruling and stick with it, tell him that you will find another GM. Mind you, you do get stuck with the second roll

I have seen too many GMs who seem to have issues. Prescience would logically be available for more than combat as it is a D20 roll.

If the GM does not understand, wish him well and leave with some class.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Walk away from this group. Guy's nuts.

Even if he were correct, his punishment is heavy handed and mean spirited.

Taldor

From the information we have access to! (tm)

Prescience has specific rules applied to it to interact with combat, the most rules heavy part of the game. A turn is a 6 seconds long measurement of time most often used for arbitrating combat. As a free action to activate it can be used before a number of out of combat rolls with GM discretion. There are no rules reasons why it can't be used on a diplomacy check if the GM decides it can be kicked off.

Every time you used it in non-combat situations during the game it was at your GM's discretion unless you were just re-rolling dice on your own without mentioning why.

To turn around after months of play to just suddenly ruin your character, something that is so ridiculously unprofessional a thing for your Game Master to do. The situation as described by you is one in which you should probably look for a new group.


I would say that you should just leave, but you should convince the other players to get the DM to stop DMing, no one should have to tolerate that BS.

Andoran

Jezai wrote:
I would say that you should just leave, but you should convince the other players to get the DM to stop DMing, no one should have to tolerate that BS.

A GM who is this heavy handed may find his players leaving. I think that this is an issue that the GM and player should have discussed beforehand. I think using foresight out of combat makes sense -- what if a player has to make a crucial knowledge check?

Still, Strychnine, talk to the GM -- perhaps in the presence of the other players. I think people here have tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but his actions seem to be a bit extreme.


May i just add, from memory here so i may be wrong, i play a forsight diviner and as i recall it says "may roll a D20 at the start of youyr turn" which can be SUBSTITUTED for any other D20 roll during. key words "ANY" and "SUBSTITUTED" it does not refer to combat nor diplomacy. i use it alot for crafting.

IE you can roll your dice if that roll is crap then substitute it for the divine roll. on anything.

But i agree with the masses speak to him... if he still wants to be a pric* then see what the other players would like to do, im sure they would be on your side.


In my opinion, it is his game and it is perfectly reasonable to rule either way on how that ability can be used. If he as GM wants to rule that the ability can only be used in combat situations then that is his call to make (I personally disagree, and would allow it to be used in non-combat scenarios). Even restricted it is a powerful and useful ability.

However, it is totally unreasonable to heavily penalise the character without any warning. He should remove (or at least allow to be removed as part of the story) the penalties, and you should both just start using the ability only the way he says it works. I would certainly be dubious about playing in a game run by someone who does things like that.


"Are" Prescience doesn't allow you to take the best of 2 rolls. You either roll normally, OR you take the result of the D20 you rolled at the start of your turn. You can't roll to see what you get, and then choose to take the Prescience roll instead.[/quote wrote:
It's not "take the best of two rolls", but it is effectively "roll again if you don't like the first result, and keep the second". It's pretty much the exact same mechanic as any number of other powers which let you make a reroll, except that it's slightly more flexible when used in combat.
Quote:


Regardless of this, your GM definitely went about the situation in the wrong way. He should have informed you (out of game) that he thought you had been using the ability wrong, not punished your character in-game to such an extreme extent.

Totally agreed. Rule breaking (whether or not it actually is) is an out-of-character consideration, which should lead to an out-of-game discussion. Having sudden in-character punishment with no forewarning is totally inappropriate.


I'd say that you can't always use the prescient rolls outside of combat. You have to activate it ahead of time, so if you didn't know you were going to make a d20 roll in the next 6 seconds, you wouldn't use that limited-per-day resource.

For example: a trap you had no idea was there. You didn't look ahead, so no Prescience.

Counterexample: tightrope walking. You know ahead you're gonna make a hard check, so you peek into the future. Works even outside of combat.

So your GM is somewhat right that you probably weren't really using the power right. You can only use it if you anticipate a d20 roll in the next 6 seconds. But within that condition, it doesn't have to be combat per se.

---

So the 6 negative levels, naked, no gear thing. That's just ridiculous. I hope your GM just had a bad day and overreacted, because this won't do.

If you notice a player cheating, handle it OOC. If you discover a player has been handling a rule wrong, deliberately or through misunderstanding or just an alternative interpretation, handle it OOC.

Tell the player "Hey, you know that ability you use? I looked it up, and you've been using it wrong. It actually works like this. So we'll be using it the right way in the future."


(sarcasm mode on) Well your DM seems mature and level headed (sarcasm mode off).

As others have said, you need to know that you are going to have to make a skill check in the next 6 second (e.g. I am going to run and try and jump over that pit) but nothing says you have to use the ability only in combat. After all I had a character put out a small camp fire with cone of cold but strictly speaking the spell only does hit point damage, it would be a very poor DM who used that as an excuse to make the fire unaffected.

Seriously it sounds like your DM is acting like a spoilt child because you have managed to circumvent some of the challenges he has placed in the game using a legitimate power.

Based on the info you have provided you should seek a more mature DM, or failing that become one yourself and not invite him to yoiur game. Speaking from experiance it is better to have a small group than a larger group with a jerk for a DM.


While agree that it applies out of combat, I would say alot of skill checks take longer than the 6 second round to resolve even if it is just one roll.
You can't craft something in 6 seconds, bargaining over the price of a necklace, convincing the king your war plan is best, appraising the value of an ancient elvish book, swiming accross the river, tracking a fugitive through the woods, climbing a cliff, etc...
So I can see difficulty in applying the ability to some out of combat skill checks depending upon how you interpret the vague wording.

But it definitely should be an out of game discussion, not a sudden drastic in game punishment of the character.


Here's the point: For one you're running a wizard, which is basically a unbalanced class. Not to mention of the divination/Foresight school (which is about the least balanced one).
If your dm nerfed you so much, you were probably the dysfunctional element of the game. While this is largely a shot in the dark, from the events described, I'm thinking you were power-gaming and probably broke the GM's world/adventures, ruining any prep time he had.

Another possibility is that your GM was sure you were cheating. Of course, this would require he have some kind of solid foundation for thinking so. I find players who tend to fudge rolls away from the GM, negotiate events with the  GM too much, metagame constantly (especially for PVP), make up facts/answers/lie about previous events so they'll suit their needs, begin rules wars when they themselves are cheating/applying the rules wrong, use homebrew elements to rip through the allowed limits and players who handwave/estimate stats and answers are more likely to incur GM wrath.

Easy ways to know if you've unbalanced a character; was your wizard broken in any single stat (not just the classic high int, like a ridiculously broken stat)? Did he have a trump card ability that just made him untouchable? Like a wizard with infinite spells, contingency-ed teleports, wizards with hp rivaling a fighter's, unfair/over-your-level magical items, too much money acquired through metagaming/PVP-tks or given the entire post, maybe he just felt your cheating with prescience so far was obviously at the source of your being overpowered and did what he could to fix it.

Like Skullking put it,  "you have managed to circumvent some of the challenges he has placed in the game using a legitimate power" your GM probably disagreed. Plus anyway the Arcane Power book is anything but balanced and the wording for the power is badly done/too vague, my own GM just outright forbade the book.

This is of course all under the presupposition that you did in fact cheat or somehow brought on this clearly angry gesture by doing something. Sure you can be a petty child like some people suggest and just quit (although don't do it by phone/email/text, quitting is like a breakup, in-face or cowardly) but I'd suggest talking with your GM about *why* he did what he did.


I am just going to go with the assumption that nothing else has happened during the game other than what was told in the OP.

I say quit. Discussion should go something like this.

"Okay I want to talk about the ruling about the school power last time."

1) I did not cheat, cheating implies intent and I was not trying to misintepret the rules.
2) Time goes by out of combat too.
3) You are free to rule that it is in combat power while I disagree with that reading of the power that would have been cool.
4) It was not cool that it was not set before the game started or at least could have been discussed that "Hey I don't think that power works that way so from no on my ruling is it is in combat power from now on."
5) You used IC solution to OOC problem, and attacked my character, not cool ever.
6) Now I am afraid you and me are not fit to play the game at the same table. Our senses of fun do not meet. Good luck in the future I am gona bow out, have fun folks.

Change number 6 if you think there is still hope. Just my personal opinion that my time is too valuable to waste with people who are acting like dicks.


I'd agree with Kydeem, you can use it outside of combat, but not for skills that take more than one round for their action. Prescience on a Use Magic Device check is fine, Prescience on a Diplomacy check, not so much (because influencing someone takes 60 seconds, and if you can only see 6 seconds into the future, as implied by the description, then you wouldn't be able to "foresee" whether the check would work until you're 54 seconds into the action, i.e. already 90% of the way through the action.)

I'd say the same applies for thing like Bit of Luck, the Fortune hex, etc.

Sczarni

Step 1: Walk outside Inn
Step 2: Commit Sepuku in streets
Step 3: Reroll Character exactly the same but change the first letter of your name to a Z and alignment to Chaotic Evil
Step 4: Call your GM a loser
Step 5: Murder anyone and everyone you see without prejudice


RAW or not, this DM is a Richard.

Dump him.


Tell the "GM it was nice playing with you but your life is to short for folks that are mean to be in it."


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, he punished your character, and denied use of your class abilities, and didn't talk to you about it first?

Just out of blue, calls you out as a cheater, and punishes you?


So, OP, what happened?


RumpinRufus wrote:

I'd agree with Kydeem, you can use it outside of combat, but not for skills that take more than one round for their action. Prescience on a Use Magic Device check is fine, Prescience on a Diplomacy check, not so much (because influencing someone takes 60 seconds, and if you can only see 6 seconds into the future, as implied by the description, then you wouldn't be able to "foresee" whether the check would work until you're 54 seconds into the action, i.e. already 90% of the way through the action.)

Except that you can see every six seconds into the future. A diplo role may represent 60 seconds of banter, but that's still 10 rounds worth of actions. It's totally legit to use it during those rounds, even though you only role once. (and thematically consistent imo)

To the OP, I'm going to go with the 'leave party' camp. His response was totally inappropriate, and if he overreacts this much to something like prescience he's going to flip his lid when you get to the really gross wizard spells...

Grand Lodge

djtezlee wrote:

May i just add, from memory here so i may be wrong, i play a forsight diviner and as i recall it says "may roll a D20 at the start of youyr turn" which can be SUBSTITUTED for any other D20 roll during. key words "ANY" and "SUBSTITUTED" it does not refer to combat nor diplomacy. i use it alot for crafting.

IE you can roll your dice if that roll is crap then substitute it for the divine roll. on anything.

But i agree with the masses speak to him... if he still wants to be a pric* then see what the other players would like to do, im sure they would be on your side.

Sorry to necro this thread but... this is something that someone I play with uses a lot and I'd like to get some more opinions on how it works. Maybe it has already in an FAQ or ruled on in some other way and I just have not found it? Possible.

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make.

Bolded part is my emphasis. As I read it, you are only required to make a roll "until" you actually make it. At that point you are no longer required to make the roll because, well you just made it. It's splitting hairs I know, but that to me means that you cannot substitute a prescience roll for a roll you have taken. You have to decide to use it before you roll.

Opinions? I really wish they would be more clear with these things when they write them up.


Cire wrote:

Bolded part is my emphasis. As I read it, you are only required to make a roll "until" you actually make it. At that point you are no longer required to make the roll because, well you just made it. It's splitting hairs I know, but that to me means that you cannot substitute a prescience roll for a roll you have taken. You have to decide to use it before you roll.

Opinions? I really wish they would be more clear with these things when they write them up.

Yes, you must decide whether or not to use the prescience roll before rolling.

Qadira

Cire wrote:
djtezlee wrote:

May i just add, from memory here so i may be wrong, i play a forsight diviner and as i recall it says "may roll a D20 at the start of youyr turn" which can be SUBSTITUTED for any other D20 roll during. key words "ANY" and "SUBSTITUTED" it does not refer to combat nor diplomacy. i use it alot for crafting.

IE you can roll your dice if that roll is crap then substitute it for the divine roll. on anything.

But i agree with the masses speak to him... if he still wants to be a pric* then see what the other players would like to do, im sure they would be on your side.

Sorry to necro this thread but... this is something that someone I play with uses a lot and I'd like to get some more opinions on how it works. Maybe it has already in an FAQ or ruled on in some other way and I just have not found it? Possible.

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make.

Bolded part is my emphasis. As I read it, you are only required to make a roll "until" you actually make it. At that point you are no longer required to make the roll because, well you just made it. It's splitting hairs I know, but that to me means that you cannot substitute a prescience roll for a roll you have taken. You have to decide to use it before you roll.

Opinions? I really wish they would be more clear with these things when they write them up.

LOL! ok Cire, you hooked me into this.

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make.
(bolding above mine)
The following is just my opinion - my take on the rule...

1) "any point before your next turn" - not "any point before you roll a d20"
2) "as the result of any d20 roll" - not "as the result of any d20 roll you are about to make".

(IMHO) The deviner may take the Prescience roll he made at the start of his turn in place of any d20 roll he makes during his turn.
Procedure:
1) turn starts : Roll Prescience prior to anything else.
2) do stuff that doesn't require D20 rolls
3) do something that requires a d20 roll.
3a) roll that d20
3b) chose to "use the result of the Prescience roll as the result of this d20 roll". Or not.
4) Continue with turn having used (or not) the Prescience roll (or not).

Our disconnect appears to be at (3a) which I feel may take place before (3b). I think you feel (3b) must take place before (3a). Is that correct?

Qadira

Are wrote:
Cire wrote:

Bolded part is my emphasis. As I read it, you are only required to make a roll "until" you actually make it. At that point you are no longer required to make the roll because, well you just made it. It's splitting hairs I know, but that to me means that you cannot substitute a prescience roll for a roll you have taken. You have to decide to use it before you roll.

Opinions? I really wish they would be more clear with these things when they write them up.

Yes, you must decide whether or not to use the prescience roll before rolling.

Why? You are saying

"any point before your next turn"
becomes
"any point before you roll a d20 or your next turn begins"

and

"you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll"
becomes
"you may use the result of this roll rather than rolling that d20".


nosig: "a roll you are required to make" is a roll you haven't yet performed.

If you choose to use prescience for a roll, then you never make the roll itself. Instead, the result of the roll is the prescience result.

You can't wait to see what you would roll before choosing.

Qadira

Are wrote:

nosig: "a roll you are required to make" is a roll you haven't yet performed.

If you choose to use prescience for a roll, then you never make the roll itself. Instead, the result of the roll is the prescience result.

You can't wait to see what you would roll before choosing.

Many times I effect rolls I am required to make after I have made them. Sometimes I even re-roll rolls I am required to make after I roll them.

"any point before your next turn" - not "any point before you roll a d20"

I wish to use the prescience roll after the D20 is rolled, but before it is assigned to my skill check. Just like many other effects that I can use as swift actions (such as gallent inspiriation or the shirt re-roll).

I AM choiseing to use the ability before the result of the check is known, just after the d20 is rolled.

As I said above, (IMHO) the turn sequence is:
3) (need to) do something that requires a d20 roll.
3a) roll that d20
3b) choose to "use the result of the Prescience roll as the result of this d20 roll". Or not.

It appears that you feel Presience requires this to be
3) (need to) do something that requires a d20 roll.
3a) Before rolling the D20 choose to "use the result of the Prescience roll as what the result of this d20 roll would have been".
Or
3b) Choose not to take the result of the Prescience roll as what the result of this d20 roll will be, and then roll the D20.

In other words, I think you are saying, a person must choose to use (or not use) the Prescience roll BEFORE he rolls the D20.
I think on the other hand that a person may roll the D20 and then choose which die to apply to the skill check. I feel this way because the skill discription says: "At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make." and it does not say "At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are going to be required to make."

Or am I mis-understanding what you are trying to say?


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

nosig, I'm afraid I'm with Are on this one. Most of the things that let you roll twice and take the better or choose to re-roll have some variation of "after the roll is made but before the results are announced" clause in them. This has no such clause.

Qadira

pulling in support from persons more eloquint... elaquint... heck, that talk better than me ;)
linking related threads


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've read that thread. It's inconclusive. I can't state for sure RAW that you need to decide use your prescience roll before you see the results of your regular roll. I can state why I think that's RAI.

I believe the "at any point before your next turn" is there to indicate that you can use the prescience roll on things that happen not on your turn, like saves or AoOs. I believe that if it was intended to be able to be used to replace a roll after that roll was made, it would have some of the verbage that accompanies the rules on other abilities that do just that.

I don't have proof, sorry. I only have opinion and the reasoning that informed that opinion. Feel free to reject it. You've explained your reasoning above, and that's all I can ask for from you.


To make this argument even more fun, it says you can use it on rolls you are forced to make. One could argue that it applies to Reflex saves only, not to picking locks, since rolling to pick locks is elective. On the other hand, the opposition would then argue that once you decide you're going to pick a lock you are forced to roll. So what rolls are even affected? ; )

Qadira

Troubleshooter wrote:
To make this argument even more fun, it says you can use it on rolls you are forced to make. One could argue that it applies to Reflex saves only, not to picking locks, since rolling to pick locks is elective. On the other hand, the opposition would then argue that once you decide you're going to pick a lock you are forced to roll. So what rolls are even affected? ; )

But wait, if you choose to take 10, then you don't have to roll. and if you decide to forgo your roll and fail a saveing throw, then you don't have to roll either... so I guess we are down to UMP checks and swim in stormy waters... and Init. rolls.

;)


I disagree with Nosig.

nosig wrote:
Are wrote:

nosig: "a roll you are required to make" is a roll you haven't yet performed.

If you choose to use prescience for a roll, then you never make the roll itself. Instead, the result of the roll is the prescience result.

You can't wait to see what you would roll before choosing.

Many times I effect rolls I am required to make after I have made them. Sometimes I even re-roll rolls I am required to make after I roll them.

"any point before your next turn" - not "any point before you roll a d20"

I wish to use the prescience roll after the D20 is rolled, but before it is assigned to my skill check. Just like many other effects that I can use as swift actions (such as gallent inspiriation or the shirt re-roll).

I AM choiseing to use the ability before the result of the check is known, just after the d20 is rolled.

As I said above, (IMHO) the turn sequence is:
3) (need to) do something that requires a d20 roll.
3a) roll that d20
3b) choose to "use the result of the Prescience roll as the result of this d20 roll". Or not.

It appears that you feel Presience requires this to be
3) (need to) do something that requires a d20 roll.
3a) Before rolling the D20 choose to "use the result of the Prescience roll as what the result of this d20 roll would have been".
Or
3b) Choose not to take the result of the Prescience roll as what the result of this d20 roll will be, and then roll the D20.

In other words, I think you are saying, a person must choose to use (or not use) the Prescience roll BEFORE he rolls the D20.
I think on the other hand that a person may roll the D20 and then choose which die to apply to the skill check. I feel this way because the skill discription says: "At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make." and it does not say "At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are going to...

If you check the cleric's Luck domain :

Quote:
Good Fortune (Ex): At 6th level, you can reroll any one roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. You can use this ability once per day at 6th level, and one additional time per day for every six cleric levels beyond 6th.

The cleric's ability clearly says it is a re-roll. It is not about prescience ("I knew I'd succeed"), but luck ("Sheesh, almost fell but managed to hang on, phew!")

Now check Prescience's wording :

Quote:
At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make.

Keyword is required. You didn't make the roll yet. If you could reroll, it would most likely have said "of any d20 roll you make", or something along those lines.

Here required does NOT mean forced. If you want to attack, you are required to roll a d20 for the attack to happen.

Now it says "before your next turn", because as already mention you can use it after your turn is finished (for a save or what not).

In game this means :
- Beginning of my turn I take a free action to roll a d20 (prescience)
- During my turn I attack. I roll OR take my prescience roll. I choose to roll, so I still have my prescience roll in the bank. My turn ends.
- Enemy caster throws a fireball. I use my prescience roll for the reflex save.

------

As a player that's how I'd encourage the GM to view it. Else it's just too good at lvl 1. Keep in mind "Good Fortune" isn't as good (you could re-roll worse, potentially a fumble!) and it's a lvl 6 ability.


Erm... so... while I believe your interpretation is correct ValandilT, is there a particular reason you cast Animate Dead on this thread? It is several months old, after all.


Oh. Didn't pay attention to the dates. I was looking on info for my new diviner and google got me straight to this thread.

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