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Stat consolidation to make them less dependent on many attributes.
What Cheapy said.
Because the deities already give them bonuses from the Charisma that being forced to cast with Wisdom just seems wrong. Also what Cheapy said.
I agree with this man.
Because clerics are very powerful already.
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Because clerics are very powerful already.
And Paladins aren't?
I mean, the way I see it, A Paladin needs about 3 stats to be effective
Strength for Damage
Con for HP
Charisma for EVERYTHING (Smites, Saves, LoH)
Meanwhile, Clerics need about 4 stats to be effective
Strength for Damage
Con for HP
Charisma for Channels
Wisdom for Casting
I mean, when you think about it, Paladins are quite powerful, but are the only class that doesn't use the correct casting stat.
I don't see why you couldn't make them Wisdom casters. They only need a 14 wisdom to cast.
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Not as powerful as Clerics are.
In 3.5, they had wisdom to cast, cha for everything else, and the usual stuff. They weren't so strong for that reason.
In 3.5, there was the CoDzilla. The cleric was toned down a fair notch in PF due to this to make them less marginalizing. You do not give such a huge buff as stat consolidation to already arguably the strongest class in the game.
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Because clerics are very powerful already.
Pallys are usually more fighty than clerics. Clerics can be sub-optimal combatants, with low strength or con, and still contribute a lot. Pallys tend to get physical more often, smiting and such.
And, what Cheapy said.
Clerics are wise in their faith. Pallys are more overt warriors for their faith, and can't suck at combat.
Also, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers aren't the only divine casting class. You also have Inquisitors (who use wisdom) and Oracles (who use Charisma).
Also what Cheapy said.
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Because Paladins are leaders and as such they use their Charisma to sway the masses. I mean think of every Paladin you have ever played with... charismatic right? They just have this certain THING that makes you wan to kill... I mean follow them.
They aren't called lawful stupid because of... wait... that isn't helping...
:)
Elamdri: You are also forgetting that Paladins need Dex for AC and saves. That makes them about even with Clerics as far as MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency) goes.
Also, Cheapy is absolutely correct. Clerics have been one of the most powerful classes since 3.x. They were toned down slightly in Pathfinder. Every base class got a buff and now things are far more balanced than they were.
I agree that Clerics are more powerful than Paladins, however I'm a person that also wants a lot of balance changes.
I am glad for the change.
Paladins are known to be great leaders, but not all Paladins are known as bastions of common sense.
Given their MAD, they tend to be not too bright or wise.
Typical leaders, IOW.
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Elamdri: You are also forgetting that Paladins need Dex for AC and saves. That makes them about even with Clerics as far as MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency) goes.
Also, Cheapy is absolutely correct. Clerics have been one of the most powerful classes since 3.x. They were toned down slightly in Pathfinder. Every base class got a buff and now things are far more balanced than they were.
I never use Dex for Paladins.
I figure, Plate armor only lets you use +1 Dex (+3 if you make it Mithral), and you already have the most baller saves of any class because you get your Charisma (Which will be insane) to your saves, and you really don't have a need to win the init fight.
I usually start with a 12 Dex and then if I get Mithral plate, I just find a wizard to buff me.
To be honest, I think Clerics are the more stat dependent class in the game.
You need good strength to deal damage (Unless you're a healbot, in which case you are a waste of space, get out of my party)
You need good Con so you can wade into combat and survive to heal the rest of the party after the fight.
You need good Dex for Survivability (You do NOT have good saves, and a Mithral Breastplate offers a Dex bonus of +5)
You need Wisdom to cast your spells
You need Charisma to channel.
Pretty much the only thing you DON'T need is Int. And even then, I HATE dumping int because I HATE not having skills.
You do not need a good Strength if you focus more on spellcasting. Nor do you need a good Constitution for that matter. Building for Channeling isn't really the best choice, so you don't necessarily need a good Charisma either.
It's all in how you build your cleric.
I figure, Plate armor only lets you use +1 Dex (+3 if you make it Mithral), and you already have the most baller saves of any class because you get your Charisma (Which will be insane) to your saves, and you really don't have a need to win the init fight.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be combative here but I disagree with all of this. Paladins are often tanks and tanks need to be able to take the brunt of incoming damage. High AC is important and Dex is the only stat that adds to that. Yes, Plate only allows for +1 but that is by far not the only option a Paladin has at his disposal. Mithral is always a good option as it allows for greater mobility as well. This is important especially because the tank needs to be able to get up in the enemy's grill ASAP. That is also a good reason to win the init fight as you put it. Dex is also the only stat that adds to init. And 12 Dex is still 2 points out of your build pool.
I think if you ask around with some of the experienced players here you will see that I am not alone in my opinions. But take them only as opinions because thats all they are. You can feel free to build your characters how you'd like.
I do, however, think that you have a rather low opinion of Clerics which is odd to me as they are still as Cheapy put it, "very powerful already". They are full casters that can cast in full armor. They make great second liners without having to sacrifice anything else in their build.
Also if your Paladin is fine with depending on a Wizard to simply buff them every combat for Dex then I am not sure why you wouldn't think that a Cleric who can do this themselves without the need to depend on anyone else isn't more effective. I mean, who cares if they are using some renewable resource as long as it gives an extra +2 to your stat for a single combat, right? (bit of sarcasm there)
Also, many Clerics dump Str in favor of higher Wis for saves, casting, and a Guided weapon.
IMO the most stat dependent class is the Monk or maybe the Ninja.
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I figure, Plate armor only lets you use +1 Dex (+3 if you make it Mithral), and you already have the most baller saves of any class because you get your Charisma (Which will be insane) to your saves, and you really don't have a need to win the init fight.I'm sorry, I don't mean to be combative here but I disagree with all of this. Paladins are often tanks and tanks need to be able to take the brunt of incoming damage. High AC is important and Dex is the only stat that adds to that. Yes, Plate only allows for +1 but that is by far not the only option a Paladin has at his disposal. Mithral is always a good option as it allows for greater mobility as well. This is important especially because the tank needs to be able to get up in the enemy's grill ASAP. That is also a good reason to win the init fight as you put it. Dex is also the only stat that adds to init. And 12 Dex is still 2 points out of your build pool.
I think if you ask around with some of the experienced players here you will see that I am not alone in my opinions. But take them only as opinions because thats all they are. You can feel free to build your characters how you'd like.
I do, however, think that you have a rather low opinion of Clerics which is odd to me as they are still as Cheapy put it, "very powerful already". They are full casters that can cast in full armor. They make great second liners without having to sacrifice anything else in their build.
Also if your Paladin is fine with depending on a Wizard to simply buff them every combat for Dex then I am not sure why you wouldn't think that a Cleric who can do this themselves without the need to depend on anyone else isn't more effective. I mean, who cares if they are using some renewable resource as long as it gives an extra +2 to your stat for a single combat, right? (bit of sarcasm there)
Also, many Clerics dump Str in favor of higher Wis for saves, casting, and a Guided weapon.
IMO the most stat dependent class is the Monk or...
I think Con is more important for Tanks than Dex at high levels. Pumping AC is incredibly difficult and very costly and you will STILL get hit at high levels.
I look at it like this
1: I can spend all my time, energy and resources pumping AC and I will still get hit and with have pitiful health.
2: I can invest in Con, Stoneskin and Ring of Friend Shield with a cleric. I will still get hit, but I will have an Huge HP pool, I will only take 1/2 damage - 10 from the DR from each attack, and once the damage is dealt, a cleric can easily channel and heal the damage.
In my opinion, AC is a sucker's game. Mitigation is where it's at.
As for Clerics, I used to play cleric a lot and I kept getting frustrated because it wouldn't do all the things I wanted it to do.
The way I look at Cleric, a Cleric is a frontline fighter who buffs himself before the fight and heals afterwards.
Looking at it that way:
You need A good strength (18-20) to hit and deal damage.
You need A decent dexterity (14-16) to make sure that you have the Reflex and Early game AC
You need A decent Con to make sure you survive battles and have a good Fort
You need at least a 13 Wisdom to make sure you can cast all your spells
You probably want at least a 14-16 Charisma to make sure that your party doesn't hate you for running out of channels
My Ideal cleric's starting stats
Str 18
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 08
Wis 14
Cha 14
And that's a pretty tall order.
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A cleric don't NEED charisma. It tops off channel. Which is a minor class feature. His major schtick is the spellcasting. It's nice to have a 13 in charisma in case you want to play a Merciful Healer or a channel-to-hurt types that benefit from Selective Channeling, but for the basic cleric? Meh. If you want healing, and you are not a Merciful Healer, channel is NOT the way to go. It is a freebie to help you survive until you get Craft Wand and can start churning out Wand of Cure Light. I consider it a feat-trap for most cleric types. Especially the combat cleric.
You NEED wis, and enough physical stats to survive. Just like a wizard NEED int and enough to make it through the day.
A paladin NEED both Str and Cha. Casting was a tertiary class feature akin to what channel is to the cleric. Good, but far from being the meat of the class.
Also, Elamdri: I just finished Kingmaker the other day. AC is cheap and easy. A +5 armor AND a +5 shield comes at the same pricetag as a +5 weapon. You want to have an AC of "need 20 to hit" by level 7 as a frontliner. And if your GM is not one of those snowflake fascists who think that magical items should not be bought and sold in a game where 4 out of 5 PC classes do magic, it is not hard.
You should not get hit physically much. The HP is the defense against all those things that your AC cannot defend against. Like spells, breath weapons and so on.
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That's actually a very easy order by level 10-12.
Why do you need high strength when you've got divine favor, divine might, divine power, etc? If you really need to melee, then you are a melee destroyer.
You can have a tremendously high AC because you can caster Greater Magical vestment and NOT SPEND MONEY on +enhancement magical items. Oh, let's not forget shield of faith. Generally, your AC is going to be +3 to +5 ahead of what you could afford via cash.
Because you can cast Greater Magic Weapon, you can afford +holy or other kickers levels ahead of the melee boys, and eventually get a +14 weapon. At ALL levels, you will have better weapons then most Melee boys. Paladins get a version of this, but their bonuses don't last all day.
With Wis 14, you're not going to cast spells higher then level 4, and you won't have crap for bonus spells. Having an indomitable will save is gravy.
The reason clerics don't need Cha to spells is because they are full loaded spellcasters...their spells can take up all the slack they need.
==Aelryinth
Interestingly enough, Charisma has always been the most important Paladin stat. Back pre- Third Ed. when you had actual stat minimums for all the classes, Paladin was the hardest to meet, it was the only class in the game with a stat minimum greater than 12, (I want to say it actually had a stat that you had to have at 18, but it probably only required a 16 or so.)
Want to guess which stat it was? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Wisdom or Strength.
It was Charisma.
Pre-Third Ed. The MOST important stat for a Paladin was Charisma & it did arguably less for the the Paladin then, than Charisma did in Third Ed, much less Pathfinder.
Elamdri: Again, I'm sorry but I have to disagree. First, I didn't say that Dex was the most important stat. Far from it, in fact. But it definitely is not a dump stat. AC is important for any tank and Dex is the only ability that adds to that. Con is also important. I was simply establishing the case that you had left Dex out of your initial abilities that a Paladin depends on.
I find this particularly odd because you prioritize Dex so highly for the Cleric. You have it as a 16 and their second highest stat! I'm sorry but I have to agree with the others that I think your priorities for your stats are a bit out of whack. Wisdom is the key stat for all Clerics as they are full casters.
Anyway, I wont bother repeating what has already been said but Aelryinth I think hit the nail on the head.
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Interestingly enough, Charisma has always been the most important Paladin stat. Back pre- Third Ed. when you had actual stat minimums for all the classes, Paladin was the hardest to meet, it was the only class in the game with a stat minimum greater than 12, (I want to say it actually had a stat that you had to have at 18, but it probably only required a 16 or so.)
Want to guess which stat it was? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Wisdom or Strength.
It was Charisma.
Pre-Third Ed. The MOST important stat for a Paladin was Charisma & it did arguably less for the the Paladin then, than Charisma did in Third Ed, much less Pathfinder.
Not quite correct :)
Druids took a 15 Cha. 1E bards did, too, and a 17 Dex, 15 Str, because they were forced dual classers.
And the score a Paladin needed was a 17 Cha...the only class needing a score that high. The only other time you needed a 17 was if you were a human dual-classer.
I don't remember the score a monk needed, but I think a 15 Wis was part of it, not sure.
I know someone did a test of 3d6 roll and keep, and your chances of rolling up a monk were something like 1/10,000, and paladins weren't much better.
You're absolutely right, however, in that it did nothing for them other then make sure they were buddy-buddy with everyone on those social roles. +30/+30 was nothing to sneeze at.
==Aelryinth
Interestingly enough, Charisma has always been the most important Paladin stat. Back pre- Third Ed. when you had actual stat minimums for all the classes, Paladin was the hardest to meet, it was the only class in the game with a stat minimum greater than 12, (I want to say it actually had a stat that you had to have at 18, but it probably only required a 16 or so.)
Want to guess which stat it was? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Wisdom or Strength.
It was Charisma.
Pre-Third Ed. The MOST important stat for a Paladin was Charisma & it did arguably less for the the Paladin then, than Charisma did in Third Ed, much less Pathfinder.
Not quite correct :)
Druids took a 15 Cha. 1E bards did, too, and a 17 Dex, 15 Str, because they were forced dual classers.
And the score a Paladin needed was a 17 Cha...the only class needing a score that high. The only other time you needed a 17 was if you were a human dual-classer.
I don't remember the score a monk needed, but I think a 15 Wis was part of it, not sure.
I know someone did a test of 3d6 roll and keep, and your chances of rolling up a monk were something like 1/10,000, and paladins weren't much better.
You're absolutely right, however, in that it did nothing for them other then make sure they were buddy-buddy with everyone on those social roles. +30/+30 was nothing to sneeze at.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for Fact-Checking me, I knew my numbers weren't spot-on, but you also see my point. I actually made up a Paladin in an old 2nd Ed game because I genuinely rolled a metric butt-ton of 17's & 18's in Character Creation one game & figured it was just a 'sign' so-to-speak.
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That's actually a very easy order by level 10-12.
Why do you need high strength when you've got divine favor, divine might, divine power, etc? If you really need to melee, then you are a melee destroyer.
You can have a tremendously high AC because you can caster Greater Magical vestment and NOT SPEND MONEY on +enhancement magical items. Oh, let's not forget shield of faith. Generally, your AC is going to be +3 to +5 ahead of what you could afford via cash.
Because you can cast Greater Magic Weapon, you can afford +holy or other kickers levels ahead of the melee boys, and eventually get a +14 weapon. At ALL levels, you will have better weapons then most Melee boys. Paladins get a version of this, but their bonuses don't last all day.
With Wis 14, you're not going to cast spells higher then level 4, and you won't have crap for bonus spells. Having an indomitable will save is gravy.
The reason clerics don't need Cha to spells is because they are full loaded spellcasters...their spells can take up all the slack they need.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, forgot about bonus spells from Wisdom.
I still think that clerics need about 4 abilities to really do their job well.
How in the world do you get a +14 weapon? A weapon can't have an enhancement bonus of greater than +10.
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Elamdri: Again, I'm sorry but I have to disagree. First, I didn't say that Dex was the most important stat. Far from it, in fact. But it definitely is not a dump stat. AC is important for any tank and Dex is the only ability that adds to that. Con is also important. I was simply establishing the case that you had left Dex out of your initial abilities that a Paladin depends on.
I find this particularly odd because you prioritize Dex so highly for the Cleric. You have it as a 16 and their second highest stat! I'm sorry but I have to agree with the others that I think your priorities for your stats are a bit out of whack. Wisdom is the key stat for all Clerics as they are full casters.
Anyway, I wont bother repeating what has already been said but Aelryinth I think hit the nail on the head.
I don't think Dex is a dump, but I don't think that an armor wearing tank like a fighter or paladin ever needs more than a 16 Dex. I think any more is a waste.
Just a note, Inquisitors are spontaneous casters who use Wisdom, so Paladins are not the only one who don't use the "proper" casting stat.
I would say that a 16 in Dex on a tank wouldn't go to waste. Including for the Paladin. I think I have made my point then? A Paladin also needs 4 stats just like the Cleric.
Has your question been sufficiently answered then?
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I would say that a 16 in Dex on a tank wouldn't go to waste. Including for the Paladin. I think I have made my point then? A Paladin also needs 4 stats just like the Cleric.
Has your question been sufficiently answered then?
Oh it's been "answered" a while ago, I think we've been having a mechanics discussion for about the past 4 or 5 hours now.
History:- Paladins (AD&D) used to have a minimum CHR of 17 to be "allowed" to qualify. The concept at the time was that by having minimum reqs, it would be hard to qualify for the class, and thus there would be fewer of them. In return, they got a lot of stuff that common fighters did not. Of course... "rolling" a 17 (along with that 18/00 STR) was no problem at all for a 14 year old with no witnessess...
Now... with a nod to history, to keep with the concept of an incredibly charismatic leader who knows right from wrong (and can tell a bad 'un just by looking at them), and to reduce MAD, Pallys now cast off of CHR.
In other words - what Cheapy said, plus a (boring) history lesson :-)
Looking at it that way:
You need A good strength (18-20) to hit and deal damage.
You need A decent dexterity (14-16) to make sure that you have the Reflex and Early game AC
You need A decent Con to make sure you survive battles and have a good Fort
Problem I see with this philosophy... is that it applies to ALL classes. This isn't a Paladin problem or a Cleric problem..
EVERY class needs a good reflex and Early game AC.
For myself, I also dumped Dex for a Paladin. and by dumped i mean 10... If I can't use it at higher levels, then I don't spend the points on it at lower levels.
I KNOW I want the paladin to get his plate armor... so he doesn't NEED that dex. Especially since they get bonuses to their saves ANYway.. ;)
As for Chr vs Wis... I don't know, The moment everyone got their own spell lists the line between 'divine' and 'arcane' blurred something fierce. Bards cast wizard spells... AND healing spells??
Hard to say who should use what stat anymore... we have classes that use INT, CHR, WIS, and it's spread out pretty even...
Yeah, forgot about bonus spells from Wisdom.
I still think that clerics need about 4 abilities to really do their job well.
How in the world do you get a +14 weapon? A weapon can't have an enhancement bonus of greater than +10.
What job is that? They're primary spellcasters, they can sit in the back chucking monsters at their opponents instead of getting up in their grill. That's their combat. They don't even need HP or AC unless you run against a ranged combatant, who are relatively rare.
If they want to be awesome at their job, they need 2 stats. Wisdom for spells and charisma for channeling.
+5 Distance, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Seeking Bow
+1 Bane, Brilliant energy/Holy/Axiomatic/Anarchic (pick 2, so long as it isn't Axiomatic/Anarchic) arrows.
This is more of a general discussion question than a rules question, but it seems the others are explaining the "why" pretty well.
I'd still prefer to have them wisdom based really, though I just wish more classes were MAD, a difference of opinion with most of the crowd here.
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I'd still prefer to have them wisdom based really, though I just wish more classes were MAD, a difference of opinion with most of the crowd here.
MAD classes really suffer with 15 point buy, especially under GM's that do everything they can to punish dumping stats.
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I don't see a reason to worry about that. It is not like they are breaking an actual general rule. I think what each class uses to cast should make sense for that class. That is one reason why I don't like int for witches. I saw them as wise or charismatic in the stories I have read, but never scholarly.
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There are so many classes with casting now that I don't think that the convention you spoke of truly exists. Sorcers can cast from Cha, Int, Wis and even Con. Alchemists that focus on melee combat with their mutagen typically do not have a starting Int above 14 even though that is their primary casting stat. Oracles going into Rage Prophet typically don't invest a lot into their casting stat if they are going more of a martialist route. And then there are Summoners particularly of the Synthesist variety.
I guess I just don't get caught up on the whole preconceived notions that certain classes need certain stats as their primary stat. I mean, to me it isn't breaking a convention because there isn't really a convention to begin with.
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You know everyone keeps saying that Sorcerers can cast using other stats besides Cha, but I honestly cannot find in the rules where it says that, and I have been looking at the domains and archetypes for a while now. Now, I will be honest, I'm not that familiar with Sorcerers; my rule of thumb when someone plays a Sorcerer in my game:
Your Class is bad and you should feel bad!
;)
(I hate limited spell lists)
but to be honest, I think there SHOULD be a convention. I like the idea of each type of mental stat relating to a different type of spellcasting.
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Because half the point of a paladin isn't just to get the job done, its to inspire others to that ideal while doing it. That takes charisma.
You know everyone keeps saying that Sorcerers can cast using other stats besides Cha, but I honestly cannot find in the rules where it says that, and I have been looking at the domains and archetypes for a while now. Now, I will be honest, I'm not that familiar with Sorcerers; my rule of thumb when someone plays a Sorcerer in my game:
Your Class is bad and you should feel bad!
;)
(I hate limited spell lists)
but to be honest, I think there SHOULD be a convention. I like the idea of each type of mental stat relating to a different type of spellcasting.
You have to look in the Ultimate Magic book. IIRC the wild blooded archetype allows it depending on which bloodline you choose.
It thematically fits well for Cha for Paladins as well. A reflection of the fact that they derive power from their unwavering loyalty to their code rather than directly from any deity.
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You have to look in the Ultimate Magic book. IIRC the wild blooded archetype allows it depending on which bloodline you choose.You know everyone keeps saying that Sorcerers can cast using other stats besides Cha, but I honestly cannot find in the rules where it says that, and I have been looking at the domains and archetypes for a while now. Now, I will be honest, I'm not that familiar with Sorcerers; my rule of thumb when someone plays a Sorcerer in my game:
Your Class is bad and you should feel bad!
;)
(I hate limited spell lists)
but to be honest, I think there SHOULD be a convention. I like the idea of each type of mental stat relating to a different type of spellcasting.
Ah, yeah, found em.
Still don't terribly care for it, but I think we've all established that's just my idiosyncrasy.
There's just something about it that kicks the OCD part of my brain in just right way, yknow?
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It thematically fits well for Cha for Paladins as well. A reflection of the fact that they derive power from their unwavering loyalty to their code rather than directly from any deity.
See, I don't view it that way, I view it like this:
Cleric, taking an hour in the morning to pray to God for spells: Dear Lord, your humble servant asks that you grant him your holy boon on this most glorious day so that I might spread your word across the land."
Paladin, taking an hour in the morning to pray to God for spells: Hey God, I heard you like things rough and righteous. Well, if that's the case, why don't you go on and give daddy some spells? I've seen the way you look at me when I'm out smit'n stuff in your name. It gets you worked up doesn't it? Well, you're welcome God. But if you wanna keep that goin' you gotta share the love, know what I'm sayin'?
(If you haven't figured it out by now, I rip on Cha casters pretty bad, comes with playing a Wizard for a long, long time)
Paladin, taking an hour in the morning to pray to God for spells: Hey God, I heard you like things rough and righteous. Well, if that's the case, why don't you go on and give daddy some spells? I've seen the way you look at me when I'm out smit'n stuff in your name. It gets you worked up doesn't it? Well, you're welcome God. But if you wanna keep that goin' you gotta share the love, know what I'm sayin'?
Paladins don't need to worship gods. They get their power straight from the cosmic forces of Law-ness and Goodness.
Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells, and the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.
