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Would like Comments / Suggestions for Custom Summoner Alt Class for TechFantasy game


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm planning on running a TechFantasy game in a month or so, and I wanted to offer a custom class for my players to play. I told my friend my concept and he suggested taking the Summoner and cannibalizing it. I took a look and liked what I saw. This is obviously VERY heavily drawn from the summoner, most abilities are just summoner abilities that have been re-themed. It is likely that I will use this class as an alternative replacement for the summoner in the game. There are some other abilities I've borrowed from other Paizo material.

Machinist

Things to know when reading the class:

1.Class Concept:

So I wanted this class to focus on a few things:

a: The dragoon mech that the player commands and eventually pilots
b: A theme of slow transformation from human to machine
c: Spellcasting
d: Creation/Use of magic items

2. World Specifics that effect the play.

a: I have created a subtype of constructs called Clockwork constructs (these will effectively replace animals; players will not encounter wolves, but instead clockwork wolves). The idea behind these creatures is that they are machines that contain the essence of an organic creature. Therefore, unlike normal constructs, they are able to be affected by mind effects.

b: Another theme of the campaign is mechanical limbs. These will be commonplace.

c: while not a big factor for this class, firearms will be commonplace, simple firearms will be classed as simple weapons and advanced firearms will be martial weapons.

I would like people to comment and tell me what they think. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure the capstone power needs a lot of work, but I'm not terribly worried about it as I doubt the campaign will see epic level play.

Thanks!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

yeah there seems to be some overlaping letters in your doc kinda makes hard it to read, definately like where your going with it though.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

also wanted to mention i really like the avian base form but was wondering aquatic or serpentine, i think having a dragoon sub to ride in some campaigns would be awesome.

Silver Crusade

Where is the overlap? I don't see it on my end.

I added Aquatic and Serpentine Back in. Should update soon.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

dont know why but the sentences of master hacker, artifice, implement mastery, singularity, and pilot dragoon overlap themselves when they drop down. maybe its on my end but its there every time i load it. just to clarify if im careful i can still read it, its just a bit more difficult.

Silver Crusade

toastwolf wrote:
dont know why but the sentences of master hacker, artifice, implement mastery, singularity, and pilot dragoon overlap themselves when they drop down. maybe its on my end but its there every time i load it. just to clarify if im careful i can still read it, its just a bit more difficult.

Gotcha. I can't seem to replicate it on my end, but glad you can read it regardless of the problems.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Elamdri wrote:

Gotcha. I can't seem to replicate it on my end, but glad you can read it regardless of the problems.

by the way i genuinely like this better than summoner and will probably opt for this in future games.

Silver Crusade

I'm glad you like it! It's not really MUCH different from the summoner really. (In fact, most of it is copy-pasted from the PRD coupled with a Find and Replace Summoner with Machinist)

I would suggest that if you are using this in a normal game, to replace "Hacking" with the summon monster SP ability, as "Hacking" is a custom ability for my specific campaign setting.


Seems interesting... I am curious about your setting... Also in Bestiary 2 or Bestiary 3 there is a Clockwork Subtype for Constructs. Though a template would be awesome.

Silver Crusade

Thanks.

To give a brief summary

The world was struck by a calamity thousands of years ago. Before it occurred, the people build giant domed cities. Since the calamity, no one has left the city that the PCs start in.

The city itself is divided into two levels. The lower level and the upper rings. The lower level is a lawless place where the poorest people with no social status live. This is where the PCs will start. It is very crowded, think Shanghai. The ceiling of the lower level is covered in giant fluorescent lights that shut off during the night.

The upper level is ruled by a number of organizations called guilds (Although they function more like a combination of street gangs and corporations). Each guild controls various territory in the upper level. The guilds are independent of each other, however they keep peace through a series of laws that outline interaction between guilds and have special provisions when a problem that effects all guilds arises.

The upper level is also divided into 3 rings. The outer ring is where low ranking guild memeber live and is urban. The inner ring is where middle rung guild members live and is more commercial. The center is where the guild leaders live and the seat of government (if you could call it that) is located. A spell has been cast on the dome itself so that it mimics a sky as well as day/night cycle.

The people who live on the lower level are disadvantaged in that they are restricted from coming up to the upper level. If anyone is caught out of the lower level, the penalty is death. However, once a month, on the 1st day of the month, every person living in the lower levels may come up to the surface for 24 hours and audition for a spot in a guild that might take them. If they can get in, they can live on the upper level. This is obviously a highly exploitative system.

The creators of the dome knew that they would need caretakers and so they adapted the local animal species to become immortal caretakers of the dome. All animals (well, almost all) have been converted into clockwork creatures that maintain the dome and the city under it.

Silver Crusade

I'd like to glean some more comments/suggestions if anyone has any.


Hmm I am curious as to why not give them bonus feats? Say any item creation feet and them have their charisma mod added to crafting checks via a separate class feature. And I haven't went through all the upgrades for the dragoon but there should be one to allow it to repair itself. And why not make mending heal its HP if cast by the Machinist? That would counteract the lack of natural healing at least a little bit. Make whole should Also do that if it doesn't already even when cast by anyone else.

And I love the Avian base form. And a little proofreading you might want to change where it says three base forms and under the mount evolution it says Eidolon.

Silver Crusade

Fixed the errors, added some extra bonus feats.

I don't like the dragoon having the ability to repair itself because it already gets a HUGE boost over eidolons by being a construct. Think about all the things it's immune to that eidolons aren't. I need to give it some drawbacks because of that.

If you read in the Dragoon description, Mending gives the Dragoon 1d4 temp hit points. I don't like the idea of it healing the Dragoon because then you could just spam a Cantrip to heal your pet, and that's too powerful. I want healing the Dragoon to waste some sort of resource to counteract the fact that it's a construct.

I've replaced Make Whole by merging it with Rejuvenate Eidolon, and calling the spell "Repair".


Makes sense... maybe allow it to heal the eidolon only so much before it only starts giving Temporary HP. I was thinking self repair could be something like 1d6 per hour. say for 3-5 Upgrade Points. Make it limited to it being inactive during the repair and the Machinist must be level 11 to take it.

I'm guessing a craft skill can Also be used to heal it?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I really enjoy this class. However it feels like this should use intelligence instead of charisma for the purposes of casting.


SaddestPanda wrote:
I really enjoy this class. However it feels like this should use intelligence instead of charisma for the purposes of casting.

Knew I forgot a thought I had...

Silver Crusade

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Makes sense... maybe allow it to heal the eidolon only so much before it only starts giving Temporary HP. I was thinking self repair could be something like 1d6 per hour. say for 3-5 Upgrade Points. Make it limited to it being inactive during the repair and the Machinist must be level 11 to take it.

I'm guessing a craft skill can Also be used to heal it?

Well, one of the upgrades that costs 4 is a form of fast healing.

Also, I added the ability to Artifice to once a day heal the Dragon 1 HP per machinist level.

Ultimately I really want healing the Dragoon to be hard and consume resources for the machinist.

SaddestPanda wrote:
I really enjoy this class. However it feels like this should use intelligence instead of charisma for the purposes of casting.

I'm glad you like it, and I agree I think intelligence works better so I changed it.

Tweaks:

Now casts off intelligence
Gains 2+Int skills instead of 4+Int
Artifice no longer adds Charisma to Craft and Spellcraft checks to create magic items. Instead adds 1/2 machinist level
Implant Upgrade now increases intelligence


Very nice, I like it a lot. There are a lot of 'engineer' classes out there, between third-party and homebrew; but this class feels unique with its hacking aspect- amongst all those engineer class, this one feels like a real modern inventor and not some clockwork mage. Good job!

Silver Crusade

Thanks for giving me your input omnomnid, I appreciate it.


Hmm maybe make a craft check to repair it and make it heal 1 HP per x gp. Say 10 gp or access to salvaged material?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A nice alternate to the many machinists/machinesmiths/artificers that are out there.

I like "Ghost in the Shell" - Masamune Shirow would be proud.

I like this treatment, and the use of the term "dragoon" for the construct makes me think even more of manga/anime!

My only problem is with the Bionic legs and arms - there is no info on how long the process takes or the price/cost. I'd also make some sort of risk in the operation, the acceptance of the implants by the Machinist's body, and either some temporary Con damage, or a permanent loss of 1 point of Con. This necessitates removing part of the body after all... As it stands it's like you just level up, chop off your arms, and voila - kewl powar strength upgrade!


Oceanshieldwolf is right on bionics... I guess I overlooked the fact that it doesn't have a cost as it stands.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hey Elamdri, here is another similar treatment of the mech/eidolon similar to your dragoon - you might get some ideas for evolutions (or upgrades as we called them):

LINK

The Clockwork Mage (linked in the clockwork construct's writeup) is Elghinn Lightbringer's baby, I just came up with a few extra ideas for upgrades - Silent Gears (probably borrowed from an Open Design clockwork creature), Exoskeleton and Heavy Chassis. Elghinn has included an arachnid base form too.

Hope this is informative or inspires some further creativity! :)

Silver Crusade

Wow, we had a lot of similar ideas there. Scary. I'll take a look at it. Thanks.

Silver Crusade

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
My only problem is with the Bionic legs and arms - there is no info on how long the process takes or the price/cost. I'd also make some sort of risk in the operation, the acceptance of the implants by the Machinist's body, and either some temporary Con damage, or a permanent loss of 1 point of Con. This necessitates removing part of the body after all... As it stands it's like you just level up, chop off your arms, and voila - kewl powar strength upgrade!

Here is what I have done. I don't like the idea making it take time to get those upgrades, because while I think thematically, you are right it makes sense, mechanically it's a bit jarring to level and not immediately get the bonuses of your level. There are other classes who get things like "Voila - Wings!" just for leveling.

What I have done is change the theming of these abilities slightly. Instead of it just being a hack/chop and putting on new arms, I have made it so that the changes are the result of the level 8 power Nano-Tech. I have changed the theme so that starting at level 10, the nano-machines are slowly replacing your body with machines. Thus, every time you receive a new body part, it is actually the result of the time that the nano-machines have had to replace it (You just realize the benefits of the replacement all at once).

I do however agree that there should be a slight Con penalty, and so I have added a permanent -1 to your Con each time you get new limbs, which I believe that is a fair trade for the permanent, untyped Str and Dex bonuses. Besides, the capstone power mitigates it somewhat.

I took a look at the link you gave me and I decided I like the idea of the Huge upgrade granting extra bonus HP.

I like some of the ideas there for upgrades, but I notice that a lot of them add spell like abilities or the equivalence of feats, and that's not really what I'm going for with my build.

I purposely want there to be a sense that upgrades and feats and spells are all going to be needed to make this mech effective and I don't want it to feel like feats and upgrades and spells are giving you the same things. I purposefully don't want you to be able to receive the benefit of improved critical from your upgrades or Haste from your upgrades. I think you should have to spend a feat or spell to gain those abilities.

I appreciate the input. Please keep it coming.


So now bionics are more of the Nanites finishing their upgrades enough for them to be used effectively... Nice!

hmm what about an upgrade that adds bonus HP? Say for 1 or 2 UP you gain an extra Hit Dice that doesn't add to your hit dice total just your HP. With a minimum level requirement of around 5-10. Does that make sense or need reworded.

Either way I love the class. Keep up the good work!

Silver Crusade

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

So now bionics are more of the Nanites finishing their upgrades enough for them to be used effectively... Nice!

hmm what about an upgrade that adds bonus HP? Say for 1 or 2 UP you gain an extra Hit Dice that doesn't add to your hit dice total just your HP. With a minimum level requirement of around 5-10. Does that make sense or need reworded.

Either way I love the class. Keep up the good work!

I added an ability for 2 upgrade points that gives it +10 bonus HP, that you can take 5 times.

At level 20, if it was Huge and takes the upgrade 5 times, it will wind up with +120 bonus HP.

That's somewhat less bonus HP than an eidolon who maxes Con, but I figure that since the Dragoon get's construct traits, there's not much room to complain.


Wouldn't the type of the STR & DEX bonuses be inherent?

Also I think moving around in a stealth requiring area might be difficult with what amounts to a clanking machine. Like Kikuchiyo from Samurai 7... And now I am going to have to build him for my upcoming campaign. Back to what I was saying. Maybe add in an ability to where the Dragoon can collapse into a smaller form that can easily be carried in a holster or something. Maybe around the time the machinist gains Nanotech. Something along Dragonball Capsule Corp.'s capsules or the live-action movies pods design.

Of course this might not fit the world to much but it does have a certain surprise factor to them similar to how a Summoner can blend in with traditional casters until the call their Eidolon.

BTW I found a Clockwork Creature Template if you hadn't seen it. It is on D20pfsrd.com and is the forth Clockwork template under the monster templates section. I would post a link but I'm typing on a phone and well having difficulties.

Silver Crusade

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Wouldn't the type of the STR & DEX bonuses be inherent?

Well, the problem is that inherent bonuses cap out at 5. So if you get a tome or use Wish, you can only bump it up by one. By making it untyped, it can be stacked. Part of the goal was that you could slowly build up important stats over time as you transform into a machine so that you become better at combat.

Azaelas Fayth wrote:


Also I think moving around in a stealth requiring area might be difficult with what amounts to a clanking machine. Like Kikuchiyo from Samurai 7... And now I am going to have to build him for my upcoming campaign. Back to what I was saying. Maybe add in an ability to where the Dragoon can collapse into a smaller form that can easily be carried in a holster or something. Maybe around the time the machinist gains Nanotech. Something along Dragonball Capsule Corp.'s capsules or the live-action movies pods design.

Of course this might not fit the world to much but it does have a certain surprise factor to them similar to how a Summoner can blend in with traditional casters until the call their Eidolon.

It's not a bad idea, I'll mess around with it.

Azaelas Fayth wrote:


BTW I found a Clockwork Creature Template if you hadn't seen it. It is on D20pfsrd.com and is the forth Clockwork template under the monster templates section. I would post a link but I'm typing on a phone and well having difficulties.

I'll take a look at it, I have my own ideas for what Clockwork template does in my game, but it can't hurt to look at other ideas. Thanks!


Just throwing out ideas. The Clockwork Creature Template feels like a fitting template with a sliding scale CR adjustment and keeping a fairly balanced power to CR ratio.

I forgot about the inherent bonuses maxing out. Though you could make your own type and create an effect that renders the bonus unusable. How about a Cybernetic/bionic bonus type.

Silver Crusade

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Just throwing out ideas. The Clockwork Creature Template feels like a fitting template with a sliding scale CR adjustment and keeping a fairly balanced power to CR ratio.

I forgot about the inherent bonuses maxing out. Though you could make your own type and create an effect that renders the bonus unusable. How about a Cybernetic/bionic bonus type.

Well if you read the abilities, I believe I have them typed as a mechanical bonus.


Elamdri wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Just throwing out ideas. The Clockwork Creature Template feels like a fitting template with a sliding scale CR adjustment and keeping a fairly balanced power to CR ratio.

I forgot about the inherent bonuses maxing out. Though you could make your own type and create an effect that renders the bonus unusable. How about a Cybernetic/bionic bonus type.

Well if you read the abilities, I believe I have them typed as a mechanical bonus.

I noticed... sorry I forgot to mention that I believe there already is a mechanical bonus to somethings. IIRC it is when using certain things like ramps and pulleys. I don't know if it was just a 3PP add-on/source book or in one of Paizo's books but it was described as a short term bonus that applies to a single check or series of related checks.

Though it is your world. Just ignore the rambling nerd...

Silver Crusade

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Elamdri wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Just throwing out ideas. The Clockwork Creature Template feels like a fitting template with a sliding scale CR adjustment and keeping a fairly balanced power to CR ratio.

I forgot about the inherent bonuses maxing out. Though you could make your own type and create an effect that renders the bonus unusable. How about a Cybernetic/bionic bonus type.

Well if you read the abilities, I believe I have them typed as a mechanical bonus.

I noticed... sorry I forgot to mention that I believe there already is a mechanical bonus to somethings. IIRC it is when using certain things like ramps and pulleys. I don't know if it was just a 3PP add-on/source book or in one of Paizo's books but it was described as a short term bonus that applies to a single check or series of related checks.

Though it is your world. Just ignore the rambling nerd...

It's ok, I appreciate the input. :) I think I will leave it be for now, if it becomes a problem I can always change it later, it's an arbitrary distinction after all.


It is a very good class. I might have to "borrow" it for my upcoming Samurai 7 inspired campaign...

BTW: Clockwork Creature Template


The book dungeons of Golarion has a Robot template BTW...

Silver Crusade

Did some updates and tweaks.


I don't suppose you would ever show us the avian base form with a CON score for the standard Summoner?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
I don't suppose you would ever show us the avian base form with a CON score for the standard Summoner?

It's a Modified Roc. (Also, all Eidolons have a Con of 13)

Roc Companions

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; AC +5 natural armor; Speed 20 ft., fly 80 ft.; Attack 2 talons (1d4), bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 19, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11; Special Qualities low-light vision.

7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +3 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6 plus grab), bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.

Avian Dragoon/Eidolon

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 10 ft., fly 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con -, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Upgrades bite, flight, limbs (legs).

How I built it

So basically what I did was looked at the Roc for my starter.

1st I took the stats and normalized them. All Eidolons have the same Con (13), Int (7), Wis (10), and Cha (11), the only things that vary are Str and Dex

Bipeds and Aquatics have a 16 Str and 12 Dex
Quads are 14/14
Serpentine are 12 Str and 16 Dex.

It made sense to make the Avian a low Strength, High dex build. So I gave it the Serpentine's stats.

Next, since an Eidolon needs a bad save, and I figured bird like creatures are pretty frail, it probably should have a bad fort.

I knew since it has flight at level 1, it needed a really bad speed, so I made it the slowest Eidolon.

All Eidolons have a base natural armor of +2 (Aquatic gets extra from a free evolution), so I gave it that

Finally, all Eidolons get a 5 point evolution point buy for free evolutions. I knew I was gonna have to spend 2 for it to have flight and another 2 to have legs so it could walk. That left me with one point for bite.

so that's how I built it. It wasn't very hard since most Eidolon features (Ability Scores, NA, Free Evolutions, Size) are standardized.

Silver Crusade

I realize that I should not be surprised that other people have had similar ideas than me, but it scares the crap out of me how similar that clockwork construct template you linked is like mine.


Wow I never realized how standardized they were...

And the Clockwork or Robot template?

I Personally am thinking about using both for my machina in my soon to be revamped Final Fantasy inspired campaign setting.

EDIT: Nevermind... I remembered you are using animals as the base.

Silver Crusade

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Wow I never realized how standardized they were...

And the Clockwork or Robot template?

I Personally am thinking about using both for my machina in my soon to be revamped Final Fantasy inspired campaign setting.

EDIT: Nevermind... I remembered you are using animals as the base.

Yeah, the standardization is what drew me to the class to make my own in the first place. Whenever you are designing a class, it's a good idea to have a pre-existing class in mind to work with so you get a sense of what is balanced and thus it's easier to avoid stuff like "My class get's flying 120 Perfect, DR 20/-, Immunity to Fire, and large size with a +6 Strength boost at level 1"

And it was the clockwork template that was so similar.

For me, the custom template was a way to nerf constructs a bit.

The problem is that since in the custom campaign, there will be almost NO animals, it would be kinda unfair to apply straight construct traits to every animal the party fights, because construct is a very strong template

So I figured, well one of the good things about animals is a characteristically low will save. But constructs are immune to will saves.

So then I decided that if constructs contained a bit of the creator's essence, then it could be argued that a will save could disrupt that link and affect the essence itself.

And that's sorta how I came to MY clockwork Construct. They're still obviously more powerful that normal animals, but I think that susceptiblity to will saves really brings them down a notch from regular constructs.


Yeah it does bring constructs down a few pegs... Personally I like the idea of Clockwork Constructs being susceptible to gears jamming and similar effects. As I am of robots being susceptible to electricity. Heck, I can see electricity affecting Clockworks as well. If you have ever seen a spring powered watch Especially a high quality one like a Rolex get shocked you get what I mean... shudder

Silver Crusade

I have made some updates to the Dragoon:

Change log:

-made a subsection under Dragoon detailing ways to repair the Dragoon.

-Hacking may no longer control a golem that is within 60 ft of it's creator

-Expanded upon the Nanites to provide for situations where a machinist's body is completely destroyed but then later restored via true res

-Abilites derived from the nanite power are now typed accordingly

-Lost mechanical limbs are rebuild after one week.

-Added 2 point evolution Alloy Retrofit

-Added 3 point evolution Adamantine Retrofit

-Made a few fixes to the upgrades

-Changed the Mending Spell

-Added credits for those who've helped me.


do you mean farther than 60ft?

Silver Crusade

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
do you mean farther than 60ft?

The intention is that if a golem is somewhere between 60 and 5ft from it's creator, it is immune to hacking. If it is 65ft ft from the creator, then it can be hacked (Although it is still harder to hack than other constructs)

The reasoning for this is that since a creator must be within 60 feet of his golem to give it an order, I decided that the presence of the creator's influence is too strong to hack through. However, once the golem is outside of the creator's influence, it opens itself up to being dominated.


Creator as in the Machinist?

Silver Crusade

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Creator as in the Machinist?

No, so here are two examples.

1: The Machinist and his party as assaulting the lair of an evil wizard. The evil wizard has constructed a golem to guard the entrance hall of his lair. The Machinist can attempt to dominate the golem.

2: The Machinist and his party are assaulting the lair of an evil wizard. The evil wizard has constructed a golem to serve as his bodyguard. When the party bursts into his private study, the golem and the wizard attack. As long as the golem stays within 60 feet of the evil wizard, he cannot be dominated by the Machinist.


Elamdri wrote:
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Creator as in the Machinist?

No, so here are two examples.

1: The Machinist and his party as assaulting the lair of an evil wizard. The evil wizard has constructed a golem to guard the entrance hall of his lair. The Machinist can attempt to dominate the golem.

2: The Machinist and his party are assaulting the lair of an evil wizard. The evil wizard has constructed a golem to serve as his bodyguard. When the party bursts into his private study, the golem and the wizard attack. As long as the golem stays within 60 feet of the evil wizard, he cannot be dominated by the Machinist.

Ok that is what confused me.

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