How to Handle Illusions?


Advice


So I am currently GMing a "Skull and Shackles" campaign and playing an illusionist in a "Jade Regent" campaign and I've had the chance to view the Illusion school from both sides of the coin.

As a GM and as a player, I haven't personally run into any illusions that are overpowered or "break the spirit of the game" in my opinion, but a fellow player who takes part in both campaigns is convinced that illusions are terribly powerful and ruin encounters.

The mentioned player has serious issues with the mechanics behind Silent Image, Minor Image, and Major Image specifically as they don't give a Will Save until interacted with. He is planning on running a campaign in the near future and has ruled that..
A. All Illusions allow a Will Save as soon as they appear
B. Enemies will never fall for multiple Illusions in a row and will either gain large bonuses to their Will Save or Auto-pass these saves after the second illusion (He hasn't officially decided).

I am certainly open to hearing his points, but to me Illusions have always been a clever and interesting way to control the battlefield without actually doing damage or causing status effects.

How do you all Handle Illusions in your games, what are your opinions of the school and how do they effect your encounters?

Grand Lodge

With those houserules, Illusions will be meaningless. Basically turning all illusion spells into cantrip level power in realms of usefulness.


In my opinion if you read about how illusions work very carefully they're fine. And not just the individual spell descriptions but the general info about the school. As long as everyone is clear about what the difference is between figment, glammer and phantasm everything works pretty good.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
With those houserules, Illusions will be meaningless. Basically turning all illusion spells into cantrip level power in realms of usefulness.

He's right those house-rules are brutal. Illusions do not need to be nerved, you just have to make sure everyone understands the limitations they already have built in.

Wayfinders

The way my DM handles illusions is if you fail the will save you start taking damage, however, this creature that you create cannot be above your HD + 1 in CR. (So you can have an Orc that deals Greatsword damage or skeletons that deal broken scimitar damage and not create a Tarrasque, also the illusions don't take AoO unless you have the metamagic feat to do so) and with this (meaning as soon as you are attacked) you get the Will save, if you make it you see through it and nothing happens if you don't you suffer real damage as if you are suffering from a heart attack or are in cardiac arrest. This adds a little extra flavor and for an illusionist idea this works out perfectly for overpowered players that just want numbers instead of flavor. Mind that this is a house rule and since my group is a bunch of power gamers, this rule helps.

For what your friend is saying, that totally defeats the purpose of any illusion that is cast, you would not have your small traps or clever tricks if you had an automatic save for every illusion. Yes, I agree that illusions should not be end all be all, but if you think about it, if you were to create for yourself (to disguise yourself so to say) as a Dragon. You would be pretty intimidating until you find out that you are hitting air. If you were to look at the same situation and everyone makes the will save, that Dragon is now useless and therefore you as an Illusionist are useless because now they will be able to see through all of your illusions.


I recommend a simple rule of thumb: an illusion can't replicate the effects of a spell of higher level.


Singer wrote:

A. All Illusions allow a Will Save as soon as they appear

B. Enemies will never fall for multiple Illusions in a row and will either gain large bonuses to their Will Save or Auto-pass these saves after the second illusion (He hasn't officially decided).

Are we talking about the Image spell line, or all illusions?

  1. Who'll get a save? At what range? Is seeing or otherwise sensing the Illusion a requirement?
  2. Multiple Illusions, full stop? Or multiples of the same Illusion?
Mind you, to play an Illusionist requires a devious mind. And a devious mind can turn disadvantages into boons. For instance: a failed Major Image spell still leaves sound, smell, and a thermal signature. Hit whoever's chasing you with a Silent Image first, and then a Major Image of yourself. All creatures with Scent just lost your trail, and won't know why since the image part of the Image isn't there.

Sczarni

@Singer
I suggest searching topics on messageboards, there is already 50 of this kind of topics that will give you quite big answer to your question.

Illusions in general are as powerful as GM makes them powerful. They are perfectly fine tho if you read about how illusions work.

If your GM is strict with that and he seems like he is, I suggest skiping them since he will constantly keep your power tuned down.

One rule which seemed like a good rule to adjudicate illusions was that person needs to spend a move or standard action to study the illusion and tries to disbelief it.

Illusions are tons of fun but you need GMs help in this.


I have a 7th level tiefling Maga new to illusions. My concept is to have her either cast Ghost Sound and follow up with Silent Image or use a Minor or Major image spell to create a rumbling pit with flames and smoke (but not necessarily heat) from which clamber out a bunch of skeletons with crossbows and some shrieking,flying wraith-like creatures. She would make the specters melee and skeletons loose bolts ineffectively and perhaps appear struck for a couple rounds, have them all return to the pit and declare that she "controls the powers of Hell!"

My question is, if I spend the time to direct the spell to interact appropriately do they not get a disbelief save?

Also, What is the limit to the number of figments I can make interact? 4 +1 per level? Some number using caster level or Intelligence bonus?

And, could she follow her declaration with a Bluff or Intimidate check?
With a circumstance bonus?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Serpent Violet

The Exchange

Singer wrote:
How do you all handle illusions in your games, what are your opinions of the school and how do they effect your encounters?

As a GM, when an illusion is in effect, my description of the area or effect matches the illusion. However, when the illusion is cast in the PCs' presence, those trained in Spellcraft get their usual check to identify the specific spell (and they'll usually follow up a success by letting everybody know "it's an illusion.")

This doesn't mean it won't look (and in some cases sound, smell, and feel) real to them, so it really won't do much in terms of saving throws. But they can charge through an illusionary 'wall', avoid an illusion-covered pit, etc. without having to make a save (assuming we're not talking about the classic Grease-followed-by-Silent-Image gag).

Illusion, in my opinion, is one of those useful-but-niche schools. Effects like displacement and invisibility are invaluable, but there are regular cases where the school is rendered useless (blind or mindless monsters ignore certain sub-types entirely).

The Shadow subschool is where the most judgement calls are necessary. Can a shadow conjuration flying monkey carry the caster to a place of safety even though he knows it's not real? (And don't try to tell me it carries him 20% of the way to safety. Or to 20% safety, if that's a thing.)

Sovereign Court

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I play an illusionist in PFS, and how well it works varies from time to time. But usually I have a good time. Of course in PFS the GM isn't allowed to make up house rules like giving automatic saves to Image illusions.

However, whether the GM is "cooperative" matters a lot in the effectiveness of your illusions. Much of the time, you're using illusions to nude enemies into doing something they weren't normally going to do. For example, chase after your illusion instead of after a real PC, making them waste an attack or spell. This requires the GM to be willing to go off-course. Some GMs are fine with that, others always contrive an excuse why the NPC goes after the real target and doesn't react to the illusion like you hope.

If you have a GM who (consciously or subconsciously) isn't really willing to play along, give up. You won't have a good time playing illusions with that guy. He might be otherwise fun to game with, but illusions won't be. Don't try to change him or confront him with rules. Doesn't help.

Much more fun is the smart GM who's willing to let illusions work, but enemies aren't total idiots either. You can't use the same illusion on everyone, you have to think about what enemies you're facing and what they'd really bite on. This is the best really, because it challenges you as a player.

Using the Image line of spells well requires thinking about what you really want to accomplish. The best use I've found is using them to make enemies make tactically bad decisions. Like chasing after an unreal enemy, or even wasting spells on them. If you do it reasonably well, your illusion will get them to waste at least one action. If you can use a Silent Image of a ninja to get an enemy fighter to move away and attack it "before it gets into flank" and you were outnumbering that fighter, you've achieved action economy advantage. If you pulled that trick on an enemy wizard and he shoots it with a Disintegrate, you've also traded a 1st level spell for a 6th level one.

Another thing is plausible reactions for your illusions when they get hit. Illusions have a really low AC. Enemies are going to hit, and feel nothing there. This would mean automatic disbelief, unless you can explain it away. The best solution for that I've found is to make your illusion look like Mirror Images; every time an enemy hits, make one image disappear. Enemy still gets a saving throw for interacting, but I use Persistent Major Image so it can take a while before they make the save.

If possible, you also want to make your illusions do stuff that doesn't directly touch enemies, because that could provoke saving throws. If your illusory magus with mirror image and shocking grasp keeps missing, at some point enemies are going to catch on, or dismiss him as a real threat. But if he seems to be casting group buffs at your party (that you can convincingly pretend are active) while standing at a tactically exposed position, enemies might be persuaded to attack him.


Thanks much for the profuse advice. However, I don't see that my actual question was answered.

If a caster makes an illusion react appropriately, do his viewers not get a saving throw because they lack disbelief?
Thanks,
SerpentViolet

Sovereign Court

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Ultimate Intrigue has a subchapter "Spells of Intrigue" that tries to make things a lot clearer.

UI, p. 158 wrote:

Disbelief and Interaction: All three of the subschools

above tend to have saving throw lines that say “Will
disbelief,” but they differ in how those saving throws apply.
Phantasms directly assail a creature’s mind, so the
creature automatically and immediately receives a saving
throw to disbelieve a phantasm. Figments and glamers,
however, have the more diff icult-to-adjudicate rule that
creatures receive a saving throw to disbelieve only if they
“interact” with the illusion.
But what does it mean to interact with an illusion? It
can’t just mean looking at the illusion, as otherwise there
would be no need to make the distinction, but drawing
the line can be a bit tricky. Fortunately, the rules can
help to def ine that difference. A creature that spends a
move action to carefully study an illusion receives a Will
saving throw to disbelieve that illusion, so that is a good
benchmark from which to work.
Using that as a basis, interacting generally means
spending a move action, standard action, or greater on a
character’s part. For example, if there were a major image
of an ogre, a character who tried to attack the ogre would
receive a saving throw to disbelieve, as would a character
who spent 1 minute attempting a Diplomacy check on
the ogre. A character who just traded witty banter with
the ogre as a free action would not, nor would a character
who simply cast spells on herself or her allies and never
directly confronted the illusory ogre. For a glamer,
interacting generally works the same as for a f igment,
except that the interaction must be limited to something
the glamer affects. For instance, grabbing a creature’s ear
would be an interaction for a human using disguise self
to appear as an elf, but not for someone using a glamer
to change his hair color. Similarly, visually studying
someone would not grant a save against a glamer that
purely changed her voice.

One of the examples given is attacking the figment, which prompts a saving throw. You don't even have to hit the figment; you're interacting with it for long enough (standard+). Also, the AC of a figment is hopelessly bad anyway.

However, where it gets interesting, is if you even need to roll a saving throw. If you hit a major image, which has no tactile components, your swords goes right through it without feeling any resistance. That would count as proof that it's not real, so automatically succeed at disbelief.

But if you made it look as if your illusion was using mirror images, you could pop one of those. Not feeling any resistance while hitting a mirror image is plausible, so no automatic disbelief. It's still interaction however so the attacker still gains a saving throw.

EDIT: so if you attack the illusion but it reacts appropriately, you get a save. If you were just watching without spending actions while your ally attacks the illusion, you don't get a saving throw.


The hard part to deal with is things like:
There is an illusory wall blocking a path. Boris the Strong and Fair pulls out his hammer and decides he will knock down the wall. He swings. We know he hammer goes through, but now what happens? Is he free to walk through the wall without making a save? Is he free to at least try (not knowing what will happen).

I've seen many argue that the fighter pulls his punches (so to speak) and will pretend his weapon rebounds. And all sorts of other BS.

Illusion is one difficult school to run as a GM to keep it somewhere between overpowered and useless.

Sovereign Court

The whole "pulling punches" thing is IMO legacy from earlier editions that doesn't have any place in PF. With UI in the mix I think PF has done a lot to make illusion a less wonky school, but it doesn't help if people mix in ancient rules from a different game into their understanding of PF.

In PF, if you hit an insubstantial wall, you might stumble through it because you were expecting resistance. At any rate, you feel that there's no substance, so no saving throw is needed: you have proof that the wall isn't what it seems.


In the case of an an illusory wall, the person hitting it with a hammer would get a save because they interacted with it. If they pass, they realize it is illusory and can now see through it (and still see the illusion as a faint outline.) This makes illusory walls great for concealing the cages you keep your basilisks in just to mess with annoying intruders who like to disbelieve everything. As long as your minions don't try to disbelieve the walls and you close your eyes when you walk through the room you're fine.

If the person swinging the hammer fails, they don't see through the illusion, but they know the hammer passed through it. He could assume it's an illusion and just step through it or on the next turn try to directly disbelieve the wall and this would likely be reasonable, since illusions are a thing. It's also equally possibly that his hammer could just be magical or a brilliant energy weapon that passes through walls and has an illusion that makes the hammer seem normal and he spends the next round testing the hammer or trying to disbelieve the glamer cloaking it. It's possible someone cast a spell that makes him incorporeal and he didn't know... because... magic.

Now, in the case of stumbling through or actually passing through the wall, that would be considered 'proof' and no save is needed. Just passing a hammer or a hand through it is not, because it's possible that you have a magic hammer and it or the wall have been enchanted to allow hands to pass through freely (which isn't the same as being illusory.)

As for if someone gets a saving throw if you make an illusion react to stimulus, that's the same basic principle. Say you have made an illusion of a pool of water covering a 10-foot pit. If someone casts a stone into the illusion, they get a saving throw because they are interacting meaningfully with it. This is regardless of whether you make the illusion ripple, splash, and make a little *ker-plunk* noise. If they pass, they see through the illusion and can see the medusa that you have waiting in the pit.

If they fail, they have no reasonable reason (based on these circumstances) to suddenly disbelieve the illusion, though they can certainly keep fooling around with it.

However, if you did not make the pool react, then naturally when the DM describes what happens, he's going to say, "The stone falls into the pool and doesn't make so much as a ripple." (and there is no *ker-plunk* or splash sound that might hide the sound of the stone hitting the bottom of the pit.) Even if the person fails their save to disbelieve for interacting, this would be reasonable evidence to assume there's something suspicious and making it much more likely to be seen through quickly. It would also likely allow anyone else observing the situation to make a save for also seeing no apparent interaction between the illusory pool and the stone and not hearing what should be heard.

So making an illusion react appropriately does 'help', but it's not fool-proof against direct physical interactions. A person hitting an illusory orc still knows his sword hit nothing, even if you make a slashing wound appear and the orc says 'Ouch!' However, that does make it more likely that they at least consider other, non-illusion options for why the orc has no apparent physical presence (maybe it's incorporeal).


I think Ascalaphus's earlier comments are well heeded. Establishing the group's handling of illusions should be consistent and known from the outset. Equally importantly, the GM should handle the illusions cast against the players in the same way they handle illusions cast by the players or their allies. It’s all too easy for a GM to make an illusion entirely convincing against the players but to have the NPC’s quickly disbelieve a player’s illusion.


Singer wrote:

So I am currently GMing a "Skull and Shackles" campaign and playing an illusionist in a "Jade Regent" campaign and I've had the chance to view the Illusion school from both sides of the coin.

As a GM and as a player, I haven't personally run into any illusions that are overpowered or "break the spirit of the game" in my opinion, but a fellow player who takes part in both campaigns is convinced that illusions are terribly powerful and ruin encounters.

The mentioned player has serious issues with the mechanics behind Silent Image, Minor Image, and Major Image specifically as they don't give a Will Save until interacted with. He is planning on running a campaign in the near future and has ruled that..
A. All Illusions allow a Will Save as soon as they appear
B. Enemies will never fall for multiple Illusions in a row and will either gain large bonuses to their Will Save or Auto-pass these saves after the second illusion (He hasn't officially decided).

I am certainly open to hearing his points, but to me Illusions have always been a clever and interesting way to control the battlefield without actually doing damage or causing status effects.

How do you all Handle Illusions in your games, what are your opinions of the school and how do they effect your encounters?

Rule "A" means that the Invisibility series of spells become nigh useless. Mirror image becomes pointless. Silence isn't. And you are never hurt by a simulacrum. Displacement doesn't. Illusion of Calm doesn't work so good. Twilight Haze no longer provides one way cover. All these spell are in the illusion school.

Point out the nerf goes both ways. When he sends an invisible attacker after you, make sure he also gives you the house rule save.

/cevah


The best advice on how to handle illusions I have ever seen is from Skip Williams, he helped write all these rules to begin with back when it was D&D. He wrote a series of blog posts really breaking it down well. Link<===


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Start playing a wizard who casts summons as well as illusions, and start laughing maniacally when the enemies disbelieve the demon right until it starts eating their faces.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
MichaelCullen wrote:
The best advice on how to handle illusions I have ever seen is from Skip Williams, he helped write all these rules to begin with back when it was D&D. He wrote a series of blog posts really breaking it down well. Link<===

I second both the Skip Williams series of articles and the stuff in Ultimate Intrigue. Tell your DM to read those pages, or, if he seems reluctant, print em out and bring em to his house and push his nose into them.

Illusions can be very powerful, and allow all kind of cool shenanigans. They have limits, but your DM shouldn't go out of his way to invalidate your characters speciality. That's just mean. Tell him so. Or tell him we said to tell him so. Have him read this thread.

The best things to use illusions for aren't creating magical critters, or trying to impress the masses with your awesome power (I am the master of hell - yeah, right), but rather placing them in plausibly believable ways. Like:
- creating an illusory wall (or dense foliage, or whatever) that the party can hide behind. "Wasn't this room a little bigger, last time we came through?" asked the passing orc. "I dunno, they all look the same, after a while," said his pal.
- creating several illusory pits right after you create a real pit. Or create illusory flooring over a real pit or similar hazard.
- creating sounds or lights a ways off so that it's difficult for the nearby critters to interact with them, but they feel the need to go and check it out, allowing you to sneak past.

Or a million other clever things to do that don't involve actually killing things.

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