Does anyone know of a spreadsheet one can use to easily track changes in attacks, AC, saves and so on when wildshaping? I just started playing a druid, and I had a really hard time keeping track of what my stats were based on the form I was in. I was about to make a spreadsheet to keep track of this stuff so that I'm not trying to calculate of all this information on-the-fly, but I've hit a roadblock in that I haven't done much with spreadsheets in years, and haven't got the faintest clue where to start for something like this. However, if there's already a wildshaping spreadsheet out there, that would make things a thousand times easier. Does anyone have such a resource kicking around?
Run a search on Google for "Happy Camper's Pathfinder Character Sheet". Should find a website (Pathfinder Database or some-such) where folks have uploaded custom sheets.
Look for the Happy Camper's (or HC, can't remember) sheets. They have additional sheets for druid wild-shape and animal companions.
Wonderful things.
Or, if nothing else, just open up Word or Excel and make your own.
I'm not really looking for a character sheet for wild shape, but rather a spreadsheet where I can select the size or form taken, and have the stats I need generated for me. Less paper than carrying around a new sheet for every wildshape form I might decide to take.
I know I can make one in Excel myself, but like I said, I haven't the faintest clue where to even start when it comes to making something like that; if there's a spreadsheet like this already made out there somewhere, it would make things a lot easier for me.
Not sure if one already exists, but I could fiddle around with Excel and see what I can't come up with.
I did find this after a whole lot of googling, but I can't see how it's all being calculated so I can check for errors. (For example, I think it's neglecting to apply a dex penalty to flat-footed AC.) No place to apply feats like Powerful Shape, either. Obviously I could just do that by hand, but the whole point of trying to find (or make) such a resource is so that I don have to do this all by hand, which means I don't need to worry about forgetting something, or slowing down combat because I need to look up stuff (which is what I experienced my first game with this character).
I suppose a wild shape spreadsheet would be a useful resource for the community as a while, not just forgetful math-challenged people like me who are playing a druid for the first time.
I can see what you mean. It's simple, which is great (simple is always good), but that's also it's chief downfall. A couple things I note quickly is that, while Beast Shape (which is the basis of the Druid's wild shape ability) doesn't affect Con at all, not only is it a field, it's also noted that the website creator "fixed the bug which modified the HP based on the new Con modifier".
Druid's Con doesn't change when they wild shape.
I'm still thinking something in Excel, or maybe even Adobe, might be better. I've got a slow day at work tomorrow. I'll play around and see what I can't put together. Nothing fancy, at least not at first, but I do agree that the community as a whole would no doubt find it useful.
Admit it. Gamers are, when it comes to game mechanics, lazy. ;P
You would totally be my new hero if you did manage to put something together. I also agree that something in Excel would be better. People can check the math that way, customize for feat and house rules, and so on. It's not just laziness; something like this can also speed up gameplay since your party druid isn't flipping through pages in the rulebooks or the SRD every time the DM asks for their AC or something.
Also, while Con doesn't change for Beast Shape, if a druid wildshapes into an elemental or plant form, Con adjustments will apply. Elder Earth Elemental looks like a tank.
Which is true, I overlooked the changes from Elemental Body/Plant Shape. Sorry about that.
Now, I've already been fiddling quite a bit with the formulas, and I'd like to ask a few questions (of you and the community at large) about layout.
Given formula limitations, it seems to me the best options for this project are to either:
Option 1 - break up the forms onto different spreadsheets within the same workbook (one for animal forms, one for Air/Earth Elemental, one for Fire/Water elemental and one for plant forms) or
Option 2 - one spreadsheet that basically has everything.
Going with Option 1, I can make the thing pretty comprehensive (house/home-brew rules excluded) without producing an inanely huge Excel spreadsheet. And if I can tweak the formulas just right, I should be able to set it up so all you'll have to do is put in your "base" stats (as they are when in normal form), make a couple choices from drop down boxes (Wild armor special ability, deflection bonuses, Amulet of Natural Armor, etc) and pick your Wild Shape form from a drop-down box. This would provide you with modified stats (STR/DEX/CON/Base attack, etc), which you could then reference with your character sheet to see what new bonuses would be, etc.
The only other potential issue I'm seeing with such a spreadsheet is that it wouldn't necessarily be easy to give total stats for every possible form specifically, unless you went with Option 2 (which would, again, be a very large spreadsheet).
Going with Option 2, while the single spreadsheet would be VERY large, it would also be possible to just put in base stats, pick a couple relevant options from drop down boxes (as above), and BAM! All your stats for every form at a glance.
Chief upside to option 1 - clean appearance, minimal scrolling, printer friendly.
Chief downside to option 1 - necessity of multiple spreadsheets, specific forms not listed. Rather, you would only have relevant bonuses.
Chief upside to option 2 - Everything in one place. Everything
Chief downside to option 2 - Everything spread out over one sheet, likely requiring a LOT of scrolling through to find the form you're after. Also, Printer Bane +5
And then there's Option 1+2:
Still do different spreadsheets, but lay it out like Option 2, only have fewer forms per spreadsheet. Same number of spreadsheets and relative ease of reference as Option 1, same visibility and printer concerns as Option 2.
-Alternative: Make one spreadsheet each for Diminuitive/Tiny/Small/Medium/Large/Huge Animals, one each for Small/Medium/Large/Huge Earth/Fire/Water/Air Elementals, one each for Small/Medium/Large/Huge Plant forms. Chief upside: relatively easy to find the form you want. Chief downside: 26 spreadsheets.
Thoughts? Input? Ideas?
So, with the second option, and having options for all possible forms, are you talking about going through the Bestiary and including stats for every possible form a druid could take? Because while I can see the usefulness of that, it sounds like a huge undertaking. Plus, in addition to printer bane, something so big might limit utility at the table if it's taking longer to find the form you're looking for on the spreadsheet that it would take to just apply the stat changes by hand int he first place.
Of course, I could be understanding what you mean with the second option, in which case forget what I said.
No, you pretty well pegged it. Like I mentioned above, Option 2 would include pretty much everything, but would require an insane amount of scrolling.
Even going with a hybrid, while you could break the information up and have multiple spreadsheets in the one workbook, with different forms broken up by size/element/etc, it would still be a very large file.
I can't see why it might be worth the extra effort. How much extra information would players glean from being able to select their specific form? Stuff like land/fly/climb/swim speeds would be available, but I can't think of much else. It sounds like it might be a lot more useful than it will actually be.
Of course, if you feel like adding in all the forms, shine on you crazy diamond. You're the one doing the work, you can call the shots.
I may be doing the work, but it's for the community as a whole, should folks so desire to use it.
Working on brief drafts of both ideas.
Looking forward to seeing the drafts!
Should have a rough draft up tomorrow evening if all goes well. Still a lot of formulas that need tweaking, but all in all it's coming together nicely.
As it's currently assembled, you should be able to just input some basic stats (level, hit points, Str, Dex, etc), pick your forms new size and armor/shield bonuses (assuming your armor/shield has the Wild property), and viola! Instant stats built from the rules presented for Beast Shape.
Working the formulas to include Gargantuan animal and Large Magical Beast (for the Power Shape feat). It's proving a bit tricky, though, so they may not be fully available in this draft.
Got the test spreadsheet done. I'll get it uploaded tonight. Will definitely appreciate feedback on it from anyone who wants to look at it.
I built in with Excel 2010, but it's saved in compatibility mode, so it should work with any version of Excel.
If someone has OpenOffice, I'd appreciate knowing if the sheet works in that program as well.
The current test just has the animal sizes (from the Beast Shape spells), as well as some other variables (such as the Wild special property on armor/shield, deflection bonus, cloak of protection, Planar Wild Shape feat, etc.
Given formula restrictions, Power Shape won't automatically calculate in. But the only real benefit it provides is a +2 to CMB/CMD, so I just made a note of it on the spreadsheet.
Wow this sounds amazing. We actually have a new player that's playing a Druid, and this would help a lot.
I use OpenOffice (on a Mac, no less!), so I'll definitely be able to check compatibility for you there. It's usually really good with stuff saved in Microsoft formats, so I wouldn't be too worried.
Clicky clicky! Here's the test draft!
Theoretically, that should work. Just installed Dropbox, so if the link doesn't let you download the draft test, let me know and I'll try something else.
But there it is. It's a test draft. I'll get it cleaned up this week, and do my best to incorporate input from here.
Questions? Concerns? Thoughts? Insights?
Remember: that's the draft. The far left column (Header reads "Initial Stats") will show either "Enter (stat)" or "(stat) (auto-calc)".
In the first instance, put in whatever relavent value from the character sheet, and once all the appropriate fields are filled it should (should) auto-populate the rest of the values.
Anywhere you see an existing number in the Stats fields means that the cell is set to automatically populate the information you need.
Under "Planar Wild Shape" on the left side you'll see a bunch of cells that read "False". This just means that the appropriate information isn't entered yet. But if you have the Planar Wild Shape feat, and select the appropriate template from the drop-down box on the right, it'll automatically enter the relevant information for you (SR, DR, etc).
Let me know. I need input from anyone who's willing to give it.
Jodokai - Let me know what you and your player thinks. I'll be working on finishing out the test into a complete first draft this week. Hopefully be done with it by Monday.
Fionnabhair - Definitely let me know. If it won't run right in Calc, I'll see about downloading the program, or finding some way of converting it.
I should also mention that a lot of those values won't calculate until you put in the druid's level. At the moment, the test will only calculate correctly for a straight druid, but I'll try to work some multi-classing in there.
And, if you're bored, feel free to double-check my math.
If you downloaded that between the linked post and this one, delete it and re-download. Had to fix a quick formatting error.
It works just fine in my version of OpenOffice.
Couple of things I noticed. First, it doesn't look like with wildshaped AC calculations are taking armour with Wild properties into account, even though the option to enter that information is given. Also, under Initial Stats, saves aren't accounting for stat modifiers, by the looks of things. Under the Modified Stats section, I think Base Attack Bonus should instead just say Attack Bonus, to prevent confusion.
As for Powerful Shape, saying that it's a flat 2 to CMB/CMD isn't entirely correct. It's true if you take a Huge form, but not if you wildshape into something smaller to start with. I don't know how to better implement this feat/information into the sheet short of adding the size table , but I thought I'd mention it, anyway.
Formulas may have broken up a bit in the conversion. Looking into it now.
I'll double-check Powerful Shape.
And yeah, I can change the modified BAB. That's just text.
Okay. A few things seem to have been lost in translation, but I fixed the formulas. Should be able to re-download it.
A few things (CMB, for example) are showing a negative value without other input. It appears to calculate correctly, though.
Just to be sure (assuming OpenOffice lets you see them), check the formula in cell E7 - Full AC, as a test. It should look like:
Quote: =ROUNDDOWN(IF(H3="Diminuitive",5+(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H15+H17,IF(H3="T iny",3+(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H15+H17,IF(OR(H3="Small",H3="Small Magical Beast"),2+(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H15+H17,IF(H3="Medium",(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H1 5+H17,IF(H3="Large",1+(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H15+H17,IF(OR(H3="Huge",H3="Mediu m Magical Beast"),4+(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H15+H17)))))),0) Everything's tallying up now on my end.
It's still not adding up on my end. I'm seeing a different formula in that cell as well, I think:
=ROUNDDOWN(IF(H3="Diminuitive";5+(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H15+H17;IF(H3="Tiny";3 +(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H15+H17;IF(OR(H3="Small";H3="Small Magical Beast");2+(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H15+H17;IF(H3="Medium";(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H1 5+H17;IF(H3="Large";1+(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H15+H17;IF(OR(H3="Huge";H3="Mediu m Magical Beast");4+(E3-10)/2+H6+H9+H12+H15+H17))))));0)
Here's my version, with values filled in.
Very cool, thanks for sharing this. Once I have some time to play with it I will let you know if I find anything,
Just an option to be aware of down the road I'm playing s Serpent Shaman, so my WS is a +2 Druid level for Snakes and -2 for other forms.
I expect to be able to just adjust what level I am in the spread sheet based on what I'm going to change in to, but just a heads up.
Thanks
JD
Alright, I think I'm seeing the problem. Formula isn't calculated quite right.
Working on it now.
Think I got it fixed. Try it now.
JDragon - What source is that out of?
Hjolmaer wrote: JDragon - What source is that out of? The Serpent Shaman is one flavor of the "Animal Shaman's" alternate class features out of Advanced Players Guide.
JDragon
i think adding a list of all the forms, and index/match the attack method / damge is ubber.
also the added abilited (climb, fly etc)
Bender - I had considered that (see previous post ITT), and while it's do-able, it's going to take a lot of time. With three bestiaries and all the potential forms a druid could theoretically take, there'll have to be a lot of compiling done first. And then will come the question of whether or not it's practical.
But, that's what these drafts are for. The one I linked above (and have been fixing with help from Fionnabhair) is a sort of rough test draft. Once I get the formulas cleaned up and working correctly, it'll be easier to finish this one out (formulas will just need to be adjusted) and convert it into the second option of the spreadsheet (the one that will list all the forms, instead of just adjusting stats based on size/armor/etc).
One potential issue with simply listing the different forms and index-matching everything is going to be formula nesting restrictions. In order to ensure cross-compatibility I had to save the document in compatibility mode. While Excel 2010 may allow for nesting of up to 64 formulas, older versions of Excel were limited to 7.
Once I get a cross-compatible version of both sheets running smoothly, I'll look into doing something a bit more comprehensive for the Excel 2010 users.
JDragon - Haven't looked into the APG much, to be honest. I'll do some digging on that when I get home, see if I can tweak the level-linked formulas. I think of a friend of mine has it....
Hjolmaer wrote: Bender - I had considered that (see previous post ITT), and while it's do-able, it's going to take a lot of time. With three bestiaries and all the potential forms a druid could theoretically take, there'll have to be a lot of compiling done first. And then will come the question of whether or not it's practical. d20pfsrd has a database of all the monsters, would it be possible to export what you need from there and import it to your spreadsheet?
I normally use the PRD (which I believe also has them), but the D20pfsrd should work just as well I'd imagine.
Definitely worth a shot.
Downloaded the spread sheet and it's nice, but the AC is boogered up. Currently my initial stat Full aC is 12. 10 + 2 for dex bonus, however as a medium creature it's showing my full AC as a 4 and my touch AC as a 2. Looks like you're just missing the +10 base.
Hjolmaer wrote: I normally use the PRD (which I believe also has them), but the D20pfsrd should work just as well I'd imagine.
Definitely worth a shot.
What I was getting at was that at d20pfsrd, you can download the database as an excel spread sheet. I was thiking you could use that to import a lot of the data without having to re-type everything.
Grimelark wrote: Downloaded the spread sheet and it's nice, but the AC is boogered up. Currently my initial stat Full aC is 12. 10 + 2 for dex bonus, however as a medium creature it's showing my full AC as a 4 and my touch AC as a 2. Looks like you're just missing the +10 base. Yah.. this is the same for me...
Thanks however for all the work... Where do you add Amulets to the list?
I have both an Amulet of Fists and Amulet of Natural Armor (+1s only).. an dof course I cannot use them at the same time
Grimelark - I'd swear I already fixed that. I'll pull it up and go over the formulas again when I get home. It'll be cleared up tonight.
LT - That should be easy enough to add in. I hadn't thought of Amulet of Mighty Fists, and I overlooked Amulet of Natural Armor.
Jodokai - Didn't know that. Thanks for pointing that out. That should save a ton of time.
Grimelark/LT - Got it fixed. Again. Apparently when I saved it last night, I saved it to the copy I have on my desktop, not the one in the dropbox folder.
Also caught another small issue.
NEXT BUG!
Looks like you left some initial stats in there.
Also, are you including Dex penalties to flat-footed AC? I have been told that they apply, but as I'm playing around, I'm getting a flat-footed AC higher than my regular AC.
You may also want to include the dodge feat for AC, if you want.
The only thing I'm seeing as missing is stat bonuses/penalties for types other than beasts. But so far, it's working very nice. Looking forward to further additions you make to it.
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The Vulture wrote: The only thing I'm seeing as missing is stat bonuses/penalties for types other than beasts. It's just a testing draft. I have another spreadsheet set up with the other form options (elemental/plant), I'm just wanting to make sure I've got all (or most, at least) of the bugs out before I adapt the formulas to the other sheets.
The Vulture wrote: But so far, it's working very nice. Looking forward to further additions you make to it. I'm glad you like it so far. When Fionnabhair mentioned this and I realized there wasn't one already, I figured it'd be a great tool to share. Once we get these bugs worked out I'll be adapting the formulas to the other forms.
Fionnabhair wrote: Also, are you including Dex penalties to flat-footed AC? I have been told that they apply, but as I'm playing around, I'm getting a flat-footed AC higher than my regular AC. Do Dex penalties apply to Flat footed AC? Let me check. If they do, that formula will be a real easy quick-fix.
No "official" word that I've found yet, but this thread seems to indicate that it doesn't factor in. And the points made make sense.
CRB wrote: Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a
chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in
the initiative order), you are f lat-footed. You can’t use your
Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while f lat-footed. Barbarians
and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge
extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be
caught f lat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain
their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks
of opportunity before they have acted in the first round
of combat. A f lat-footed character can’t make attacks of
opportunity, unless he has the Combat Ref lexes feat.
Emphasis mine. According to this, you don't apply a Dex penalty to AC. You just don't get your bonus.
Fionnabhair wrote: You may also want to include the dodge feat for AC, if you want. Sorry about that. Was still thinking 3.5 Dodge feat. Again, simple fix.
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My understanding of the thread you linked to suggests that the penalty does apply to flat-footed AC. I looked through the Bestiary as well to check ACs of beasties with dex penalties (not very many of them), and they seem to also have their dex penalty applied to flat-footed AC.
I asked a rules question about it, so we can move on until that gets answered.
Found our answer:
CRB wrote: Armor Class
Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for
opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It’s the
attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit
you. Your AC is equal to the following:
10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier +
other modifiers
Note that armor limits your Dexterity bonus, so if you’re
wearing armor, you might not be able to apply your whole
Dexterity bonus to your AC (see Table 6–6).
Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity bonus (if you
have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your
Dexterity bonus to AC. If you don’t have a Dexterity bonus,
your AC does not change.
Pretty clear cut. Page 179 of the core rule book.
So other than the Dodge bonus (which I'll work in there this weekend), where are we at?
Hjolmaer wrote: Found our answer:
CRB wrote: Armor Class
Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for
opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It’s the
attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit
you. Your AC is equal to the following:
10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier +
other modifiers
Note that armor limits your Dexterity bonus, so if you’re
wearing armor, you might not be able to apply your whole
Dexterity bonus to your AC (see Table 6–6).
Sometimes you can’t use your Dexterity bonus (if you
have one). If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your
Dexterity bonus to AC. If you don’t have a Dexterity bonus,
your AC does not change.
Pretty clear cut. Page 179 of the core rule book.
So other than the Dodge bonus (which I'll work in there this weekend), where are we at?
This shows the penalty included in the FFAC. The normal AC includes it, and is not changed when it goes to flat-footed AC because the monster does not have a Dexterity bonus. Your AC should not go up from being caught unaware.
*Edit* Unnecessary sentence.
Think I've got the issue figured out. The formula's missing a reference.
I'll work on it today.
Okay, pretty sure I got the flat-footed issue fixed.
Also fixed an issue where the "base" flat footed armor class returned "FALSE" if the "base" Dexterity was less than 11.
Next bug?
My flat-footed AC is coming back with "Err:522" when I select a size Medium or smaller (including magical beasts), and 0 if I select Large. Link to my sheet.
The modified flat-footed is referring back to itself, rather than the full AC like it should be. I'll fix it this evening. In the meantime, if you're working in the sheet, replace E9's formula with this one:
=ROUNDDOWN(IF(E3<10,E7,IF(E3>10,E7-(E3-10)/2)),0)
That cell is starting to drive me crazy......
Any other bugs you goodly folks have found?
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