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New AP demon blight crusade


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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Qadira

Fire Mountain Games wrote:

You know what would dial it up to eleven for me? If the AP fully supported running a Lawful Evil Asmodeus-worshipping group through it.

Hell's Belles that would be fun!


They basically have already flat out stated that that Mythic rules isn't just for post 21st level play. There are even some rumors floating around that the book is specifically not going to cover post 21 play at all.

They have also directly said they have no interest in starting an AP at a level beyond 1.

So I think we should neither be getting super excited or depressed yet about mythic rules/this AP, since the information just isn't available, or in some cases contradictory.

As far as idle speculation goes, I am wondering if mythic levels are going to be an option that characters can choose INSTEAD of leveling up as normal. So a hard normal cap of level 20 for characters. But mythic levels, whatever that means now, can be taken after you reach 20, or before. So you can have characters increase in power, but perhaps not ridiculously so as the epic level handbook allowed

Taldor

Hooray! I've been hoping this would be one of the next APs! I'm not sure how I feel about the Mythic rules but I'll wait and see first.

If it does start at 6th level, I'd love to see Paizo publish something in the module series to cover that initial gap.
Maybe with say... Lastwall? ;-)


Fire Mountain Games wrote:

First, I'm already excited about this product.

You know what would dial it up to eleven for me? If the AP fully supported running a Lawful Evil Asmodeus-worshipping group through it.

"Return of the Blood War" without ever using the term.

The heroes have had centuries to seal the Worldwound. They failed. Now only the bad guys can save the world.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

here here. in the rough WW draft i made at home, mod 4 required a deal to be made with the devil. I imagine the LE are pretty concerned too really.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Awww, why isn't it named "Storming Sarkoris"? ;-)

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Yeah I don't know why they didn't just call it the "Wounded World" AP.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thenovalord wrote:
Fire Mountain Games wrote:

First, I'm already excited about this product.

You know what would dial it up to eleven for me? If the AP fully supported running a Lawful Evil Asmodeus-worshipping group through it.

"Return of the Blood War" without ever using the term.

The heroes have had centuries to seal the Worldwound. They failed. Now only the bad guys can save the world.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

here here. in the rough WW draft i made at home, mod 4 required a deal to be made with the devil. I imagine the LE are pretty concerned too really.

Just because devils would be concerned doesn't mean you should be forced to work with them. I don't like FMG's idea of being LE either, but at least he put the word "IF" at the start of that sentence, because the moment you're required to be--or serve--evil to do good, I'm out.

I've never understood the mentality that evil is the only thing powerful enough to do things. Have you looked at the Solar Angel? What about the Star Archon? These beings are incredibly powerful . . . the former more powerful than the Pit Fiend, the latter just a touch less powerful . . . yet both just as capable of using that power to aid the PCs against immense evil like the Worldwound. Yet people seem to believe that only evil is powerful enough to stop evil 99% of the time.

I understand the whole need to throw ethical choices at the players, or the roleplaying spins that can be put on the idea of having to work with LE devils and the like, but "good" is not stupid, regardless of how people want to portray it.

Anyways. Sorry about the rant here, and I don't want to turn this into another alignment thread, though it does appear that's what I'm doing. My point is: "options" are legit and roleplaying is great, but requiring deals with the devil to do your job as a good character is short-changing good characters. Good is not weak!

It's simply too often misunderstood! ;)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lictor Fedryn Mannorac wrote:
To be fair, anything to do with the Worldwound was likely to end up being high-powered. I'll be intrigued to see where they go with this.

I hope it's not a semi-fake-out like Carrion Crown.

"WHISPERING TYRANT!! Oh wait, no Whispering Tyrant."


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hogarth, considering this thread contains a ton of conjecture about the AP and no real details on its story, there could be just about anyone scrolling through it.

/whisper: perhaps you should throw a spoiler tag on the above?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
hogarth wrote:

I hope it's not a semi-fake-out like Carrion Crown.

"WHISPERING TYRANT!! Oh wait, no Whispering Tyrant."

I imagine that's one of the reasons why they're doing the whole mythic thing in combination with this adventure path. One of the tweets coming out from the seminar mentioned the possibility of actually fighting demon lords.


Sub-Creator,

Don't get me wrong. I also hope the AP allows me to play a group of paladins who swear upon their lives to close the World Wound. With the word "crusade" in the title, I can't imagine that it won't.

I just also want the OPTION of running it with bad guys.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games


Gary. On a tangential note. How about you run an Empire of Night PbP once Blood of the Night comes out? I'm sure we can rustle up some cookies!


It's a tempting offer. No doubt I could do it in my free time.

*WHAM*

That was actually the sound of my wife braining me for even thinking about committing to another campaign right now.

I'm afraid I cannot right now. Sorry!

Gary "The Overcommitted" McBride
Fire Mountain Games


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Fire Mountain Games wrote:

Sub-Creator,

Don't get me wrong. I also hope the AP allows me to play a group of paladins who swear upon their lives to close the World Wound. With the word "crusade" in the title, I can't imagine that it won't.

I just also want the OPTION of running it with bad guys.

Oh, I didn't get you wrong, sir! I agree that options are the spice of life in RPGs. The more the merrier! It was the idea that one would be required to sign a pact with a devil to succeed or some such thing that annoyed me (and that wasn't in your post at all). Evil is not inherently more powerful than good; in fact, it's more of the other way around.

One of the things I would find interesting about life around the Worldwound, in fact, would be if it generated such a powerful aura of chaos that all those near it are constantly struggling against unlawful desires made more potent by its presence. This could easily account for all the corruption that takes place in Mendev. People who were lawful originally and crusaded with altruistic intentions get skewed more toward chaos, and their lawful intentions thus become corrupted. I love this idea because than it doesn't play off the whole good/evil, but law and chaos lines. Thus, even LE characters sent in to do something about Worldwound find their convictions strongly tested by the mere presence of chaos exuded by the place. Would also explain why good or evil in nature, there's been no luck in doing anything about the place at all.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BPorter wrote:
Jenner2057 wrote:

I admit, at first the Mythic Rules tie-in had me disappointed. But the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

Giving a 15-17th level party (about where you finish up an AP) a stack of +1/+2/+__ "CR" items/abilities so they're able to take on a CR 25 Demon Lord at the end of an AP? (as I understand the Mythic Rules kinda sorta will)
It has some potential and solves a bunch of problems.
Put me firmly in the "interested" camp. Shrug.

I'm definitely interested to learn more, and the approach Paizo appears to be taking with Mythic - an enhancement to established 20 levels rather than a bolt-on of additional levels, has me hopeful.

However, high-level Pathfinder characters are already very powerful. I don't know that amping that power level up even further is appealing to me and my players.

If the mythic rules are designed for post-20th play, then they're likely a non-starter for us. At present, it's not an auto-cancel-subscription trigger like I had previously anticipated.

I just REALLY like the AP line. I was an original AP Charter subscriber and it was a really difficult choice a few years back when I had to cancel it to cut back on expenses. I re-upped it at the first opportunity. With Paizo's 10th-Anniversary sale, I finally filled in my "lost issues" from Second Darkness. I'm not eager to cancel the subscription again, but if the mythic/epic stuff is too ingrained in the AP, I can't justify putting up $120 bucks either...

So, I guess I'm in the "interested, but with reservations" camp... :)

But the mythic rules aren't designed just for post-20 level play. That was one of the first things revealed. Yes, high-level characters are already very powerful as you say. Though they're still not powerful enough to kill a Demon Lord. Fighting an actual Demon Lord should make an excellent end to this campaign.

You say above that the mythic preview has you hopeful. Then you debate auto-cancelling before anything more has really even been revealed yet, one way or the other. I guess, yeah, if it sucks, cancel. But wait and see at least. And if you end up liking the mythic stuff or it's modular enough that you can remove it from the AP then you don't have to cancel on an AP you want.

Sheesh, why all the negativity? I hope you're not that cynical in your everyday life, that would get depressing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Block Knight wrote:
BPorter wrote:
Jenner2057 wrote:

I admit, at first the Mythic Rules tie-in had me disappointed. But the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

Giving a 15-17th level party (about where you finish up an AP) a stack of +1/+2/+__ "CR" items/abilities so they're able to take on a CR 25 Demon Lord at the end of an AP? (as I understand the Mythic Rules kinda sorta will)
It has some potential and solves a bunch of problems.
Put me firmly in the "interested" camp. Shrug.

I'm definitely interested to learn more, and the approach Paizo appears to be taking with Mythic - an enhancement to established 20 levels rather than a bolt-on of additional levels, has me hopeful.

However, high-level Pathfinder characters are already very powerful. I don't know that amping that power level up even further is appealing to me and my players.

If the mythic rules are designed for post-20th play, then they're likely a non-starter for us. At present, it's not an auto-cancel-subscription trigger like I had previously anticipated.

I just REALLY like the AP line. I was an original AP Charter subscriber and it was a really difficult choice a few years back when I had to cancel it to cut back on expenses. I re-upped it at the first opportunity. With Paizo's 10th-Anniversary sale, I finally filled in my "lost issues" from Second Darkness. I'm not eager to cancel the subscription again, but if the mythic/epic stuff is too ingrained in the AP, I can't justify putting up $120 bucks either...

So, I guess I'm in the "interested, but with reservations" camp... :)

But the mythic rules aren't designed just for post-20 level play. That was one of the first things revealed. Yes, high-level characters are already very powerful as you say. Though they're still not powerful enough to kill a Demon Lord. Fighting an actual Demon Lord should make an excellent end to this campaign.

You say above that the mythic preview has you hopeful. Then you debate auto-cancelling before anything more has really...

Honestly I think they are not powerful enough to fight a Demon Lord because Demon Lords don't exist. I do not mean in the obvious way, but even on paper. A group of level 5 adventurers could take on a CR 15 dragon and win with proper planning, maybe some more decent gear then they should have, and a little luck, but since demon lords are "too powerful for print" then even level 20 characters will always fall short. The issue is not that they are so powerful but so abstract at the moment. As soon as you wrote down a CR 30 Demon Lord, it would not take someone long to make a level 20 party that could take him down.


One of the things I like about Paizo APs now that the line has matured a bit, is that they don't have to adhere to the narrow band of broad appeal. A whole AP devoted to pirates is just as meh to one person as a whole AP devoted to being super heroes is to another. Granted James, Adam and Mark have to gauge their APs around themes that are popular enough to warrant a print run. But beyond that? Go crazy, highlight the other Pathfinder lines, showcase rules, whatever.

So I hope Demon Blight Crusade is set up to run easily with the standard core game. But if it isn't? I can either: suspend my AP subscription, try to convince a group to play mythic heroes, mine the AP for ideas to use later, and/or simply enjoy the support articles. Case in point, I was not a fan of the Set Pieces that were present in Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire because they shrunk the available space for each affected issue's adventure and support articles...but guess what...I've used every dang one of the set pieces in the years since.

I'm stoked for the super hero gamers out there that finally get some published lovin'. Time to suit up...in a year :-)


Herbo wrote:

One of the things I like about Paizo APs now that the line has matured a bit, is that they don't have to adhere to the narrow band of broad appeal. A whole AP devoted to pirates is just as meh to one person as a whole AP devoted to being super heroes is to another. Granted James, Adam and Mark have to gauge their APs around themes that are popular enough to warrant a print run. But beyond that? Go crazy, highlight the other Pathfinder lines, showcase rules, whatever.

So I hope Demon Blight Crusade is set up to run easily with the standard core game. But if it isn't? I can either: suspend my AP subscription, try to convince a group to play mythic heroes, mine the AP for ideas to use later, and/or simply enjoy the support articles. Case in point, I was not a fan of the Set Pieces that were present in Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire because they shrunk the available space for each affected issue's adventure and support articles...but guess what...I've used every dang one of the set pieces in the years since.

I'm stoked for the super hero gamers out there that finally get some published lovin'. Time to suit up...in a year :-)

Now I can wear my undewear... OUTSIDE MY PANTS! HAHA! *strikes pose*


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Timothy Hanson wrote:


But the mythic rules aren't designed just for post-20 level play. That was one of the first things revealed. Yes, high-level characters are already very powerful as you say. Though they're still not powerful enough to kill a Demon Lord. Fighting an actual Demon Lord should make an excellent end to this campaign.

You say above that the mythic preview has you hopeful. Then you debate auto-cancelling

...

Eric Mona has confirmed in the Mythic Adventures thread that these new rules will allow you to fight Demon Lords. That concept was one of the primary objectives before they even started designing the system.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Herbo wrote:
One of the things I like about Paizo APs now that the line has matured a bit, is that they don't have to adhere to the narrow band of broad appeal. A whole AP devoted to pirates is just as meh to one person as a whole AP devoted to being super heroes is to another. Granted James, Adam and Mark have to gauge their APs around themes that are popular enough to warrant a print run. But beyond that? Go crazy, highlight the other Pathfinder lines, showcase rules, whatever.)

I agree with this. Trying to cover too many bases might well result in pleasing nobody. Doing each thing really well suits the paizo motif far better. :)

Like you, I've been pleasantly surprised by many paizo offerings I didn't expect to be very interested in. I think I'm much more likely to get fully drawn into a mythic AP than an AP full of sidebars about how to include/exclude the mythic elements. (I'll probably still never use it, but I'm keen to see how paizo present those kinds of concepts).


I have to say, this makes my day. I was actually expecting this instead of Reign of Winter, probably because I had just bought Diablo 3 but I am hella glad this is coming to pass, I was worried that it wasn't going to.


Timothy Hanson wrote:
Honestly I think they are not powerful enough to fight a Demon Lord because Demon Lords don't exist. I do not mean in the obvious way, but even on paper. A group of level 5 adventurers could take on a CR 15 dragon and win with proper planning, maybe some more decent gear then they should have, and a little luck, but since demon lords are "too powerful for print" then even level 20 characters will always fall short. The issue is not that they are so powerful but so abstract at the moment. As soon as you wrote down a CR 30 Demon Lord, it would not take someone long to make a level 20 party that could take him down.

Um. . . I'm confused. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post, I meant that those who think high-level characters are already all powerful can maintain that supposition in their home games, but by Golarion Canon the Demon Lords are too powerful for even a 20th-level party. However, using Mythic rules will allow groups playing the AP (or in any campaign) to fight Demon Lords at the end (which has been confirmed).

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Demon Lords aren't "too powerful for print". I think you're confusing Pathfinder's stance on deities with Demon Lords. The masters of the lower planes are, in fact, meant to be killed by Mythic and powerful heroes. That's sort of the point.

Edit: If you mean that once Demon Lords are printed then we'll have groups who can find a way to kill them at Level 20 without using Mythic Rules, well, it might be possible. Though, excepting a few ultra-chessy combinations (I dare not assume it will be impossible), I think it will be highly unlikely. I suspect some of the abilities granted by the top-tier Mythic levels will prevent that sort of shenanigans. Demon Lords are demigods and as such do have access to divine powers (to be replicated in the new ruleset) which probably allow them to ignore non-Mythic entities. That's just my guess though. We'll find out in a month or so.

Also. . .

Joseph Wilson wrote:
Timothy Hanson wrote:


But the mythic rules aren't designed just for post-20 level play. That was one of the first things revealed. Yes, high-level characters are already very powerful as you say. Though they're still not powerful enough to kill a Demon Lord. Fighting an actual Demon Lord should make an excellent end to this campaign.

You say above that the mythic preview has you hopeful. Then you debate auto-cancelling...

Eric Mona has confirmed in the Mythic Adventures thread that these new rules will allow you to fight Demon Lords. That concept was one of the primary objectives before they even started designing the system.

Exactly. . . but you quoted the wrong person, Wilson. ;) I realize your comment was directed at Timothy though. Cheers.

Edit 2: Fixed quotes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Block Knight wrote:
Exactly. . . but you quoted the wrong person, Wilson. ;) I realize your comment was directed at Timothy though. Cheers.

Ha! Woops!

Didn't catch that when there's so much text in a post it cuts off...

(caught it for this one though!)

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
ThatEvilGuy wrote:
I have to say, this makes my day. I was actually expecting this instead of Reign of Winter, probably because I had just bought Diablo 3 but I am hella glad this is coming to pass, I was worried that it wasn't going to.

After PaizoCon I was actually rather pessimistic about the prospect of a Worldwound adventure path due to some comments made by a Paizo staffter (James Jacobs I think) about the difficulties of creating such an adventure path. Either that was just a smokescreen or the greenlighting of Mythic Adventures helped a lot.

Either way, I'm still ecstatic about Demon Blight Crusade. I just hope we'll get to roleplay through some fun low-level stuff before the fun Mythic madness starts

Cheliax

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravenmantle wrote:
ThatEvilGuy wrote:
I have to say, this makes my day. I was actually expecting this instead of Reign of Winter, probably because I had just bought Diablo 3 but I am hella glad this is coming to pass, I was worried that it wasn't going to.

After PaizoCon I was actually rather pessimistic about the prospect of a Worldwound adventure path due to some comments made by a Paizo staffter (James Jacobs I think) about the difficulties of creating such an adventure path. Either that was just a smokescreen or the greenlighting of Mythic Adventures helped a lot.

Either way, I'm still ecstatic about Demon Blight Crusade. I just hope we'll get to roleplay through some fun low-level stuff before the fun Mythic madness starts

I think James was saying it was very difficult to do just starting plain at 1st level with the base rules, without giving away the fact that they weren't planning to keep that as the only option...


Yep, I remember that thread and that post. Enlight is right. James talked about how there was no way they could do Worldwound AP properly using standard 1st Level characters. Though thinking back, he never actually said they weren't doing it (and at that point they would have already been testing Mythic rules in-house).

Wow. Well done Jacobs. I bet everyone in the office was laughing at us while we all sat crushed in disappointment by his statement. But you all knew. You're sick. You're all very sick. ;)


For some reason I am ridiculously excited for this. Might be because I've never ran a campaign that involved demons before.

I think there's something appealing about the classic heroes pitted against the demonic hordes.


you can do a worldwound AP from 1st

its a long march to the front for a start
plenty low level stuff verging on the demonic for 1st-4th to cope with

and to me the word Crusade implies a journey

we have run this as an home-made AP

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Must try to convince my group. They still hate demons since Savage Tide... I say just more motivation!


Greetings, fellow travellers.

Gorbarcz wrote:
Saving Sarkoris

There. Admittedly, it might be a little late for that.

TL;DR

Sorry if this has been said up-thread, even though I am exited about this AP, with Demon within already there, one of the key actions - at least to me - which would have to be in the AP has been staged (and it's a great adventure) in that module.

Especially the aspects of the ward stones as mentioned in the list by Ravenmantle and (one of) the cults guarding the key to the whole line of defense formed by the ward stones has been described therein - details are lacking, 'tis true.

Also, one of my first thoughts was: Just play a pally - can't go wrong here; all other classes will be clearly inferior looking at the general theme (wasn't there a post talking about an "All pally AP"?).
Or will it be a CC clone, where some show stoppers and plot twists prevented that class from just waltzing through the encounters - now with demons?

The war aspect could be interesting, a sub-system already exists, there would be a chance for some (minor) tweaks, but the backing by building points as in KM seems rather non-fitting here.

Ruyan.


Lol, I see a group of 4 Oath of Vengeance Paladins just tearing this AP apart and making the Demons cry out to their overlords, "WHY WOULD YOU PUT US UP AGAINST THEM!?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!?!"


A group of four Paladins will tear any AP apart.


Easy response to all-pally party: Just make all the Demons anti-paladins; they're conveniently CE :)


Toadkiller Dog wrote:
A group of four Paladins will tear any AP apart.

Yep, but with the right amount of subversion and conflicting goals (and a smart GM) they could easily tear apart each other as well.

RuyanVe wrote:
Or will it be a CC clone, where some show stoppers and plot twists prevented that class from just waltzing through the encounters - now with demons?

Well, I think "clone" is a little derogatory, but yes, I imagine they'll draw inspiration from Carrion Crown to provide appropriate challenges for all classes.


yeah, really not keen on it being for all classes. I appreciately financially they need to, but their are so few LG place in Golarion that LG/NG need to shine

have run a home made AP set in Mendev and that really needed good guys

another good thing is i reckon the links between adventures will be a bit stronger, and in that respect, not like CC.....which is an AP i am enjoying immensely but it feels like seperate mods


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm, looks like I'll be picking my AP subscription back up sooner than expected.


I've been curious about the Worldwound since I first read about it so color me intrigued

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

2 people marked this as a favorite.
The Block Knight wrote:
Toadkiller Dog wrote:
A group of four Paladins will tear any AP apart.
Yep, but with the right amount of subversion and conflicting goals (and a smart GM) they could easily tear apart each other as well.

I once played in a,game where the gm pitted the players against one another. That game ended friendships. Just saying.


Oh, just to be clear I was not advocating all-out war between party members. And I would never dare to pit my players against one another. However, depending on the group, a bit of inter-party conflict can keep things fresh if they are aware in advance that it's a possibility (this is definitely one of those things that should be discussed at the beginning of the campaign).

I ran a Dark Ages: Vampire game with four players who played Vampire elders all the way into the modern nights once. The campaign lasted two years and they spent a great deal of time competing against one another through political intrigue. They also occasionally banded together out of mutual distrust for an even more powerful threat. It's been almost a decade since I ran that game and they all still talk about it as one of their favourites.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, "know your group and their limits", but if your group is willing and the social contract is put in place at the beginning of the campaign (full disclosure) than it can be a rewarding experience.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

While there's something to be said for well done and civil player vs player conflict, most APs really hinge on groups pulling together, especially those with a heroic theme.

YMMV, but feeling like you have to look over your shoulder all the time because of PC antagonism while trying to enjoy and engage the campaign can be a real buzzkill and game killer(especially if you signed on to play in a heroic campaign as a heroic character and a few other players decidedly did not).

Guess that boils down to everyone needing to be on the same page before the campaign even starts, but I do still think GMs should be extremely careful when trying to inject or encourage party conflict in standard APs.


Oh, in standard APs, absolutely. I agree with you 100% Mikaze. In a game about heroics most of the group's actions should definitely feel heroic. Certainly there is the potential for some political intrigue and player-maneuvering in some of the non-standard ones (Kingmaker and Skull&Shackles) but that would be it for me. Even then, I always make sure to clear it with the group beforehand.

Edit: I should also say that when I do allow (limited) player conflict in my games I'm very careful to manage it. I've also been doing this as a GM for a long time, over 20 years now, so on the rare few campaigns where I do allow it I've got the experience to back it up. It's definitely not something I would recommend to any group where:

1) The GM is relatively new
2) The players are relatively new or do not know each other well
3) An experienced GM who doesn't like games outside their comfort zone or a GM not used to different styles of gameplay
4) Any group with members showing the maturity of a teenager. I'm not saying teens can't make these kinds of games work, they can, if they're mature enough to handle it. Just not many are, I know since I was one once. Conversely, not every adult group can handle it either since I've met some pretty immature adults as well. In both cases, this usually arises from the GM not being mature enough to mediate the conflicts (or know when to stop) or the players being unable to separate the game from personal feelings.

Edit 2: Apologies for the huge thread derail.

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