Design Manager
|
You can make one primary bite and one attack with each of your claws as primary natural attacks. You never get iterative attacks with natural weapons from a high BAB. You could use your unarmed strike as a weapon, but would have to give up one of your natural attacks to do so. In this case, you could make your full iterative attacks with your unarmed strike, then treat your two remaining natural weapons both as secondary natural attacks (attacking with them both once each at -5 from your Full BAB). I've included the information on natural attacks from the Bestiary for you below.
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
|
Well, since bite and claw are ALWAYS primary attacks then if you only attack with those that round you can make 3 attacks. Each attack would be at +5 to hit (+1 bab +4 str bonus) and +4 to damage from your strength.
If you added an unarmed strike to this mix it would change your natural attacks to secondary so they would be at +0 to hit and +2 to damage. The unarmed attack would be at +5 to hit and +4 damage (make sure you declare the unarmed strike as a kick or knee since you can't use the same limb as what the natural attack is using).
All of this is laid out in the beastiary under the natural attack rules.
Any primary natural attacks are at your full BaB bonus, any secondary natural attacks are at BaB -5. I'm guessing you can't use secondary natural attacks until you hit BaB 5 at least, but not sure about that.
So if you have two claw attacks and a bite attack, and none of them specify that they're secondary, then as a standard action you can choose one to attack with. As a full round action you can attack 3 times: one with each natural attack, all at your highest bonus. There are certain buffy you can add later that will enhance only one of your attacks (lets say weapon focus (bite)) - then you do each attack using your highest bonus, adding 1 specifically for the bite attack.
I think in the case of claws, weapon focus would actually enhance both claws instead of just one bite.
If the description for bite were to explicitly state that it was a secondary natural attack, then any full attacks would be at BaB -5 E.g.
BaB 10 with 0 strength
2x claw attacks at +10 each and
1 bite attack at +5 to hit
ALTERNATIVELY, you can do a regular attack using natural weapons as regular weapons. So at +15 BaB, you'd get 1 attack at +15, one attack at +10 and one attack at +5 - you can see why natural attacks are easily better in this regard. You can use any combination of weapons and natural weapons for these attacks.
Unarmed strike is like having an alternative weapon to choose from. It shouldn't really make any difference, except you can use it in case 2 - swap natural attacks out for fighting with your body instead.
|
Design Manager
|
Well, since bite and claw are ALWAYS primary attacks then if you only attack with those that round you can make 3 attacks. Each attack would be at +5 to hit (+1 bab +4 str bonus) and +4 to damage from your strength.
If you added an unarmed strike to this mix it would change your natural attacks to secondary so they would be at +0 to hit and +2 to damage. The unarmed attack would be at +5 to hit and +4 damage (make sure you declare the unarmed strike as a kick or knee since you can't use the same limb as what the natural attack is using).
All of this is laid out in the beastiary under the natural attack rules.
Only monks can make unarmed attacks with knees. Everyone else is limited to Punches, kicks, and headbutts per the stipulations in Unarmed Attacks. The ability to use elbows and knees and make unarmed attacks with his hands full is an ability given specifically to the monk.
I include unarmed strike and natural attacks from the CRB below as reference.
Since you go from STRx1.5 for your bite and STRx1 for your claws to STRx.5 for all three if used as secondary, you're probably actually lowering your damage by trying to get extra attacks with Unarmed Strike.
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
|
Design Manager
|
@Trayce
"ALTERNATIVELY, you can do a regular attack using natural weapons as regular weapons. So at +15 BaB, you'd get 1 attack at +15, one attack at +10 and one attack at +5 - you can see why natural attacks are easily better in this regard. You can use any combination of weapons and natural weapons for these attacks."
This is wrong. You do not ever get this option. Natural attacks are specifically prohibited from gaining iterative attacks for a high BAB. I've quoted it twice above, but I'll post the relevant portion again
"You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus"
You can, however, add your natural attacks to an attack routine with a manufactured weapon or unarmed strike, in which case your attack routine with your, for instance, longsword, would be made according to your regular BAB (example +6/+1) and then your available natural attacks would be made as secondary natural attacks (example +1 claw {.5 STR to damage} +1 Bite {.5 STR to damage})
Pardon me. I was under the impression that you could use natural attacks like any other weapon, sorta like unarmed strikes. My bad.
|
|
Well, since bite and claw are ALWAYS primary attacks then if you only attack with those that round you can make 3 attacks. Each attack would be at +5 to hit (+1 bab +4 str bonus) and +4 to damage from your strength.
If you added an unarmed strike to this mix it would change your natural attacks to secondary so they would be at +0 to hit and +2 to damage. The unarmed attack would be at +5 to hit and +4 damage (make sure you declare the unarmed strike as a kick or knee since you can't use the same limb as what the natural attack is using).
All of this is laid out in the beastiary under the natural attack rules.
Only monks can make unarmed attacks with knees. Everyone else is limited to Punches, kicks, and headbutts per the stipulations in Unarmed Attacks. The ability to use elbows and knees and make unarmed attacks with his hands full is an ability given specifically to the monk.
I include unarmed strike and natural attacks from the CRB below as reference.
Since you go from STRx1.5 for your bite and STRx1 for your claws to STRx.5 for all three if used as secondary, you're probably actually lowering your damage by trying to get extra attacks with Unarmed Strike.
** spoiler omitted **...
I have always considered unarmed strikes as a trap and unworthy of mixing with natural attacks anyway. It significantly decreases your damage per round and slows down table play too much.
Also the bite is NOT STRx1.5, you only get that if it's your ONLY natural attack (this applies to any singular natural attack a creature has).
Since you go from STRx1.5 for your bite and STRx1 for your claws to STRx.5 for all three if used as secondary, you're probably actually lowering your damage by trying to get extra attacks with Unarmed Strike.
Though this does vary to an extent depending on what class the PC is and what kind of party you're in. If you're playing a class that has a significant source of non-strength damage (sneak attack, smite/challenge, etc) and/or you're getting bard buffs, then the decreased strength bonus isn't as much of an issue.
oooh, of note: Feral combat training works quite nicely if you have unarmed strike already. It requires a weapon focus in each natural weapon you want to use it with, but suddenly any feat that enhances unarmed strike also enhance those natural weapons.
Improved unarmed strike -> Weapon focus (claws) -> Feral combat training -> Dragon Style -> Dragon ferocity should give you back some strength modifiers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I also wanted to confirm that I am not considered 2 weapon fighting so I dont get that penalty and if a bite and 2 claws counts as 3 natural weapons to qualify for the multiattack feat
Two-weapon fighting and natural attacks have nothing to do with eachother (except a sentence in the Core Rulebook that has been labeled a mistake by the designers).
A bite and 2 claws does count as 3 natural weapons for purposes of Multiattack, but the Multiattack feat doesn't do anything for you. All of your natural attacks are already primary, so none of them get the -5 penalty that Multiattack reduces.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The claw/claw/bite routine is powerful at low levels but past about 11th level the regular weapon based attacks catch up and pass the natural attacks in potency.
Make sure your GM understands this before he nerfs your claws into secondary weapons.
Even before 11th level you will start running into problems hitting your target (it's prohibitively expensive to get even a +2 to hit on your weapons) and then the issue of DR comes into play, at best you can get through silver and magic with a feat but the rest of them are almost impossible to get past.
Basically you get more attacks early in the game but the damage on those attacks is much lower.
Okay, sorry, I should have mentioned that. Yes, Multiattack will work to reduce the penalties if you also use manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes.
Mathwei ap Niall: What do you base this on?
3 natural attacks at full BAB vs 3 manufactured attacks at 0/-5/-10 penalties to BAB. The three natural attacks allow you to do more damage.
Yes, while manufactured weapons are usually higher in damage dice the attack penalties result in a lower DPR overall.
Of course, if you compare 3 natural attacks to 6 manufactured weapon attacks (TWF) that changes things. Not to mention the whole enhancement bonus problem. :)
- Gauss
|
Design Manager
|
The claw/claw/bite routine is powerful at low levels but past about 11th level the regular weapon based attacks catch up and pass the natural attacks in potency.
Make sure your GM understands this before he nerfs your claws into secondary weapons.Even before 11th level you will start running into problems hitting your target (it's prohibitively expensive to get even a +2 to hit on your weapons) and then the issue of DR comes into play, at best you can get through silver and magic with a feat but the rest of them are almost impossible to get past.
Basically you get more attacks early in the game but the damage on those attacks is much lower.
Yeah you're pretty much stuck with Amulet of Mighty Fists or casting the various itereations of Magic Fang to boost your attacks with natural weapons. The good news is, once you hit +3 enchantments and what-not, it helps with the DR issue. Remember:
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does
So a +3 weapon overcomes cold iron/silver, a +4 overcomes adamantine, and a +5 gets you past that obnoxious alignment based stuff.
It's in the Core Rulebook glossary:
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does
Be aware that only the actual enhancement bonus counts (so a +3 weapon works, but not a +2 flaming weapon), and that the magic weapon and magic fang spells specifically state they don't grant the ability to overcome DR.
|
|
The claw/claw/bite routine is powerful at low levels but past about 11th level the regular weapon based attacks catch up and pass the natural attacks in potency.
Make sure your GM understands this before he nerfs your claws into secondary weapons.Even before 11th level you will start running into problems hitting your target (it's prohibitively expensive to get even a +2 to hit on your weapons) and then the issue of DR comes into play, at best you can get through silver and magic with a feat but the rest of them are almost impossible to get past.
Basically you get more attacks early in the game but the damage on those attacks is much lower.
Yeah you're pretty much stuck with Amulet of Mighty Fists or casting the various itereations of Magic Fang to boost your attacks with natural weapons. The good news is, once you hit +3 enchantments and what-not, it helps with the DR issue. Remember:
DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver +3
adamantine* +4
alignment-based +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon doesSo a +3 weapon overcomes cold iron/silver, a +4 overcomes adamantine, and a +5 gets you past that obnoxious alignment based stuff.
Yes the Straight pluses will allow you to overcome the DR at those levels. HOWEVER an AoMF +3 costs you 80,000GP for that +3 so is effectively impossible to get before 13th-ish level. This is LONG after you have been banging your head against DR enabled opponents.
Also remember, that Magic Fang does NOT allow you to pierce DR no matter how high the bonus from it is.@GAUSS, Your interpretation is missing three very important points on how much DPR a player puts out that massively decrease the natural attacks effectiveness at higher levels.
1. Magic bonus to hit. Yes the iterative attacks have a lower base bonus but since they can purchase magic weapons that increase that AND benefit from more spells that increase pluses to hit they tend to wind up with a higher total bonus to hit on their first and second (if not third attack) then the natural weapon wielder.
Add to this that the OP is playing a druid with a lower bab as well.
2. DR, since the natural weapon wielder can only get past Magic and Silver (with a feat or spending 80K gold) they take a significant amount of damage off of every attack. DR is the bane of melee characters unless they have a massive plus to damage and no matter what your plus is the guys who can bypass that DR will always do more damage.
3. Multiple attacks. The iterative fighter will eventually get more attacks per round then the nat weapon user (significantly more if they TWF or use a Bow) while you are limited to the same attacks you started the game with. The Ginsu fighter/rogue TWF with their 7 attacks a round or the paladin archer with his 9+ a round will easily surpass your damage output by the sheer volume of attacks (and possibilities to Critically hit) they can put on the target every round.
No, the Claw/Claw/Bite route is powerful from 1-6, competitive at 7-11, and strictly inferior after 12th level. Once you get there it's time to change up your fighting style or you WILL be left behind by all the other melee classes.
Mathwei ap Niall: I stated some of that, I just do not think the difference is that great. Especially if you are a druid/fighter. There are other combinations that help as well.
- Gauss
|
Design Manager
|
Do you have a reference for the overcoming DR with weapon enhancement thats defanatly something I want to show my gm
Just look up Damage Reduction in the glossary of the Core Rulebook, or search it in the PRD on this site. It's right there next to the description of what damage reduction is and how it works.
|
Design Manager
|
@Gauss and Mathwei
I find the best thing to do is take your claw/claw/bite at low levels if you can get it, and then open up into a routine where you full attack with a manufactured weapon in one hand and use your claw and bite as secondary natural attacks after about 6th level or so. You get the best of both worlds :)
It's why I'm currently loving the Ranger with the Natural Weapons fighting style.
|
|
Mathwei ap Niall: I stated some of that, I just do not think the difference is that great. Especially if you are a druid/fighter. There are other combinations that help as well.
- Gauss
Throwing on fighter levels definitely helps but that's not the point.
The argument wasn't that Natural weapons aren't good, just that at higher levels iterative weapons are BETTER.I have an 11th level Feral Ranger who can easily put out almost a 100 points of damage per round and bring a GM to tears. However if I had built him as an archer or a 2 weapon fighter at this level I could put out at least 20-30 more damage a round.
Natural weapons are fun but truly iterative attacks are just better after a certain point.
The extra damage is what BBT was alluding to I believe. There generally isn't a resist Holy (unlike fire or cold etc) so the extra damage would be soaked by the DR (on average) allowing the rest of the weapon damage to get through.