Another AoO question


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 88 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Scarab Sages

Can a non flat footed character with the 'daze' condition make an AoO?

My response as a GM is yes. As a 'daze' character can not take an action in his turn and an AoO is not an action.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you're dazed you can't initiate any actions of your own. The most that you can do...the only thing you can do, is to maintain your defenses.

So no acts of opportunity if you are in a dazed condition.

Scarab Sages

I guess the act of making an attack is an action. Just been having a discussion around AoO and using grace.

An AoO is neither a free, standard or move action. It is just an AoO.

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:

If you're dazed you can't initiate any actions of your own. The most that you can do...the only thing you can do, is to maintain your defenses.

So no acts of opportunity if you are in a dazed condition.

I do not take the term act literially. I thought the term to act means to take an action... and as an AoO not being an action...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Masika wrote:
LazarX wrote:

If you're dazed you can't initiate any actions of your own. The most that you can do...the only thing you can do, is to maintain your defenses.

So no acts of opportunity if you are in a dazed condition.

I do not take the term act literially. I thought the term to act means to take an action... and as an AoO not being an action...

Lets make this simpler.

If you check the Dazed condition, it will tell you that you can not make attacks.... period. An AOO whatever else it is, is still an attack, so the answer remains no.

And yes, if you're dazed by whatever means, you have the Dazed condition.

Scarab Sages

@LazarX
Respectfully your definition of daze is not accurate. Straight from SRD
"Dazed

The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC."

It states that a the creature can not act normally - that is make a standard, move, swift, free or immediate action.

Technically an AoO is not a type of action. It just occurs.

EDIT:
To add to that, to make an AoO you must not be flat footed. There are feats that allow you make AoO when flat footed, combat reflexes.

Liberty's Edge

I'm surprised there is even a question about this:

Dazed: "The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC."

Making an Attack of Opportunity

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An AoO is a free, melee attack. It's still a melee attack, and is an attack action.

You can't do this dazed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Winterwalker wrote:

I'm surprised there is even a question about this:

I'm not.

This wouldn't be the first time a GM was upset at what the Dazed spell accomplishes and tries to short circuit it.


Winterwalker wrote:
An AoO is a free, melee attack. It's still a melee attack, and is an attack action.

It's not an attack action.

The attack action is a standard action. You can't use Vital Strike or Overhand Chop with an Attack of Opportunity.

I'm not saying you can take an AoO while dazed, I think the intent is clear that you can't.

Liberty's Edge

Masika wrote:

@LazarX

Respectfully your definition of daze is not accurate. Straight from SRD
"Dazed

The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC."

It states that a the creature can not act normally - that is make a standard, move, swift, free or immediate action.

Technically an AoO is not a type of action. It just occurs.

EDIT:
To add to that, to make an AoO you must not be flat footed. There are feats that allow you make AoO when flat footed, combat reflexes.

Being Dazed trumps the ability to make AoO while flat footed. You're still Dazed and can't attack. So this doesn't help you in this scenario.

Liberty's Edge

Grick wrote:
Winterwalker wrote:
An AoO is a free, melee attack. It's still a melee attack, and is an attack action.

It's not an attack action.

The attack action is a standard action. You can't use Vital Strike or Overhand Chop with an Attack of Opportunity.

I'm not saying you can take an AoO while dazed, I think the intent is clear that you can't.

Huh? The RAW disagrees. Again...

Attacks of Opportunity
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work.

and ...

Making an Attack of Opportunity

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

WW: It could not be any clearer guys. It's called out twice via text as being a type of attack.

p.s. prove via RAW it is NOT an attack action and I will recant.

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:
Winterwalker wrote:

I'm surprised there is even a question about this:

I'm not.

This wouldn't be the first time a GM was upset at what the Dazed spell accomplishes and tries to short circuit it.

That is not my attempt at all. I pride myself on rule knowledge and application. What will be will be in game... I want to get it right.

Nothing as you implied :)

Scarab Sages

Winterwalker wrote:

WW: It could not be any clearer guys. It's called out twice via text as being a type of attack.

p.s. prove via RAW it is NOT an attack action and I will recant.

RAW is OGL is it not? Honestly I am not sure.

SRD (PRD to that matter) is clear AoO is not an action.

I agree that it is an attack... but an AoO is not an action so my agruement is at a daze character can do it.

I find this logic equally fraustrating as with the rules of 5 foot step. It says you can not take any other type of movement... I consider drawing a weapon as a move action as movement... but the general feeling on the forum is that movement is moving from the character's square. Bot producing a wand is movement no more than say a character walking 10'.

That logic said, in PFRPG an AoO is not an action. Since a dazed character can not take any actions a daze character can perform an AoO as it is not an action.

Scarab Sages

Winterwalker wrote:


p.s. prove via RAW it is NOT an attack action and I will recant.

Respectfully, this is easily proved. An attack action by default is a standard action. You can only perform a standard action on your turn. An AoO is made when it is not our turn. So by definition it can not be an attack action per say.

I agree it is an attack but I disagree it is an action as per the wording SRD/PRD. Again am not sure what RAW is.

Edit:
Fixed up spell to make more sense. :)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Threatened Squares wrote:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

If you're dazed, there are no squares into which you could make a melee attack, therefore there are no squares you threaten, therefore you can't take AoO's.

Scarab Sages

Jiggy wrote:
Threatened Squares wrote:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
If you're dazed, there are no squares into which you could make a melee attack, therefore there are no squares you threaten, therefore you can't take AoO's.

That is a good point. The player who this affected raised tht point. I countered that the character threatened the square. Because a character can not act on his turn does not mean that he does not threaten the square.

In fact if you inspect the the quote carefully it says even when it is not your turn. Daze states that a character can not act normally. This implies in that characters turn in my mind.

Going back as an AoO is currently not an action under SRP/PRD...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Masika wrote:
That is a good point. The player who this affected raised tht point. I countered that the character threatened the square. Because a character can not act on his turn does not mean that he does not threaten the square.

Incorrect. As I just quoted, threatening is contingent upon being able to attack. If you can't attack, you don't threaten. That's explicit in the rules; not even just an interpretation. Right there in black and white.

Quote:
In fact if you inspect the the quote carefully it says even when it is not your turn. Daze states that a character can not act normally. This implies in that characters turn in my mind.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here.

The clause "even when it is not your turn" qualifies "you threaten". Meaning that even when it's not your turn you still threaten. You still have to otherwise meet the condition of being able to make a melee attack.

Or are you saying that "can't act normally" (from daze) only means "can't act normally during your turn"? If so, you'd be incorrect. It simply says you can take no actions - it makes no mention of only during your turn. You also couldn't claim (if this was your intent) that the text is assuming the context of your turn when it says you can't take actions, as immediate actions are always able to be taken out of turn. Similarly, some free actions (such as speech) can be taken out of turn. If being dazed was supposed to only prevent taking actions on your own turn, it would need to call out some exceptions. It doesn't.

------------------

To sum up:
• If you're dazed, you can't take actions, whether on your turn or not (though I'm not sure where you were going with that idea).
• You don't threaten a square into which you can't make a melee attack (that's not even up for debate - straight from the rules).
• Since you can't take actions, you can't make attacks. Since you can't make attacks, you don't threaten. Since you don't threaten, you can't take AoO's.


Masika wrote:
I find this logic equally fraustrating as with the rules of 5 foot step. It says you can not take any other type of movement... I consider drawing a weapon as a move action as movement... but the general feeling on the forum is that movement is moving from the character's square. Bot producing a wand is movement no more than say a character walking 10'.

The rules have a very specific precise meaning for movement when talking about this - which is actually physically moving from one location to another a distance of greater than 5'.

Masika wrote:

In fact if you inspect the the quote carefully it says even when it is not your turn. Daze states that a character can not act normally. This implies in that characters turn in my mind.

You should be understanding this instead to mean cannot act at all (except to defend oneself from attacks in this scenario) until the duration of the daze is up. e.g, they could not take an immediate action (which is normally done on someone else's turn) while dazed.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Masika wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Threatened Squares wrote:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
If you're dazed, there are no squares into which you could make a melee attack, therefore there are no squares you threaten, therefore you can't take AoO's.

That is a good point. The player who this affected raised tht point. I countered that the character threatened the square. Because a character can not act on his turn does not mean that he does not threaten the square.

In fact if you inspect the the quote carefully it says even when it is not your turn. Daze states that a character can not act normally. This implies in that characters turn in my mind.

Going back as an AoO is currently not an action under SRP/PRD...

I don't know why you're harping on this. Because even if you're right, it's completely, absolutely, irrelevant to the original question.

Being Dazed means you can't attack at all. whether its on your turn or off it. You can't do anything other than put up your basic defense. You can't attack, you can't sing the Hail Mary, you can't do the Spock salute, you can't do a thing. And because you can't do a thing you don't threathen any squares so you can't have an AOO, you can't even help provide a flank until you lose that condition.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
Masika wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Threatened Squares wrote:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
If you're dazed, there are no squares into which you could make a melee attack, therefore there are no squares you threaten, therefore you can't take AoO's.

That is a good point. The player who this affected raised tht point. I countered that the character threatened the square. Because a character can not act on his turn does not mean that he does not threaten the square.

In fact if you inspect the the quote carefully it says even when it is not your turn. Daze states that a character can not act normally. This implies in that characters turn in my mind.

Going back as an AoO is currently not an action under SRP/PRD...

I don't know why you're harping on this. Because even if you're right, it's completely, absolutely, irrelevant to the original question.

Being Dazed means you can't attack at all. whether its on your turn or off it. You can't do anything other than put up your basic defense. You can't attack, you can't sing the Hail Mary, you can't do the Spock salute, you can't do a thing. And because you can't do a thing you don't threathen any squares so you can't have an AOO, you can't even help provide a flank until you lose that condition.

/agree

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One other thing.

If you're going to use the SRD for an arugment, make sure it's the Pathfinder SRD, not the SRD to a game that's been dead for 5 years now.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Attack of Opportunity is a free single melee attack.

An attack is a standard action.

Liberty's Edge

Masika wrote:
Winterwalker wrote:


p.s. prove via RAW it is NOT an attack action and I will recant.

Respectfully, this is easily proved. An attack action by default is a standard action. You can only perform a standard action on your turn. An AoO is made when it is not our turn. So by definition it can not be an attack action per say.

I agree it is an attack but I disagree it is an action as per the wording SRD/PRD. Again am not sure what RAW is.

Edit:
Fixed up spell to make more sense. :)

...wow. OK so even with the SRD bolded saying in 2 places it is a melee attack action, it isn't?

I think your looking for the forest, and those pesky trees are always in your way. :)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
GM Jeff wrote:

Attack of Opportunity is a free single melee attack.

An attack is a standard action.

Now, see, this isn't helpful. Even if your final conclusion on the topic at hand is correct, your argument to get there is wrong, and is based on an untrue premise.

Making a normal, single attack on your turn is a standard action. That doesn't mean other attacks are standard actions.

When you use TWF for instance, you make two attacks, but you don't use any standard actions. You in fact forfeit your standard action in order to get a full-round action to make two attacks. You can also ready an action to attack, but it's the act of readying that's a standard action (spent when you declare it), and the resulting attack is not a standard action. And as the OP has been asserting, an AoO is not a standard action either.

You're all correct that you can't take AoO's while dazed, but it has nothing to do with them being standard actions, because they're not.

Even when you happen to be right about the final outcome, it's not very helpful for your case when the reasoning behind your stance demonstrates a lack of understanding of the action system that's central to the whole game.

Scarab Sages

@Jiggy
The point I was making is that when dazed a character is daze it can not act so it is like missing a turn - no standard, free, etc etc action in that characters turn in that round. So my thought was it can not act in its turn but it can attack when it is not its turn - AoO.

I realise now that my logic flawed as to have an AoO must threaten a square. To threaten a square a character must be able to make a melee attack so a daze character has not threaten squares!!!

Hurray!!!!

So a daze character can not make an AoO because an AoO is an action rather a daze character does not threaten squares!

I am quite happy about that. :)

PS.

In terms of in game,:
the character took some damage because of the AoO from the Faceless Stalker. The FS was dazed from a fail save from a piercing scream. We are in the middle of the Pathfinder Module Feast of Ravenmoor and in the next session I can give back to healing the characters did to compensate... and a free tshirt reroll to the play to make up for my error.

Liberty's Edge

Jiggy wrote:
GM Jeff wrote:

Attack of Opportunity is a free single melee attack.

An attack is a standard action.

Now, see, this isn't helpful. Even if your final conclusion on the topic at hand is correct, your argument to get there is wrong, and is based on an untrue premise.

Making a normal, single attack on your turn is a standard action. That doesn't mean other attacks are standard actions.

When you use TWF for instance, you make two attacks, but you don't use any standard actions. You in fact forfeit your standard action in order to get a full-round action to make two attacks. You can also ready an action to attack, but it's the act of readying that's a standard action (spent when you declare it), and the resulting attack is not a standard action. And as the OP has been asserting, an AoO is not a standard action either.

You're all correct that you can't take AoO's while dazed, but it has nothing to do with them being standard actions, because they're not.

Even when you happen to be right about the final outcome, it's not very helpful for your case when the reasoning behind your stance demonstrates a lack of understanding of the action system that's central to the whole game.

Being a 'standard' was not my rational at all. But the fact it was an attack action. Free/Immediate/Standard/Full, no diff there.

I think in your attempt to highbrow us you yourself you demonstrated a lack of understanding the position we tried to explain to the OP, that it simply couldn't be done as you can not take ANY action (edit: accept as pointed out, to defend yourself).

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:

I don't know why you're harping on this. Because even if you're right, it's completely, absolutely, irrelevant to the original question.

Being Dazed means you can't attack at all. whether its on your turn or off it. You can't do anything other than put up your basic defense. You can't attack, you can't sing the Hail Mary, you can't do the Spock salute, you can't do a thing. And because you can't do a thing you don't threathen any squares so you can't have an AOO, you can't even help provide a flank until you lose that condition.

This were I disagree with you. Being dazed does not mean you can not attack it means you can not act. An AoO is not an action. That is my point I harped on.

AoO is not an action
Being daze means you can not act (not attack)

It is a moot point... as the threaten square truimps my arguement whether or not you agree with it.

EDIT:
Just fixing my spelling to avoid confusion.

Liberty's Edge

Masika wrote:


AoO is not an action

Yes it is! If you do nothing you are not acting, if you do something it is an action.

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:

One other thing.

If you're going to use the SRD for an arugment, make sure it's the Pathfinder SRD, not the SRD to a game that's been dead for 5 years now.

I sense you are fraustrated. Please understnad I am not antagonising you or anyone. I wish for robust discussion to come up with the correct answer so I can learn and move on.

Your remark is a flame and unjust.

Please rest assured I am using the correct SRD as I cut and paste and the general forum convention is that you can cut and paste the quote with out web reference. I am a competent human being who can admit when he is wrong but for your benefit examples below.

For example.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Dazed
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Threatened-Squares

Again I apologise if my comments offended you as it was not my intent.

PS I am competent but suck at spell/typing. :)

Scarab Sages

I stand by what I said.

An AoO is not an attack action. It is an attack.

Winterwalker wrote:
Masika wrote:
Winterwalker wrote:


p.s. prove via RAW it is NOT an attack action and I will recant.

Respectfully, this is easily proved. An attack action by default is a standard action. You can only perform a standard action on your turn. An AoO is made when it is not our turn. So by definition it can not be an attack action per say.

I agree it is an attack but I disagree it is an action as per the wording SRD/PRD. Again am not sure what RAW is.

Edit:
Fixed up spell to make more sense. :)

...wow. OK so even with the SRD bolded saying in 2 places it is a melee attack action, it isn't?

I think your looking for the forest, and those pesky trees are always in your way. :)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Winterwalker wrote:
Masika wrote:


AoO is not an action

Yes it is! If you do nothing you are not acting, if you do something it is an action.

"Action" is a reserved game term, with a meaning defined by the rules rather than simply using its plain-english definition. An action in Pathfinder is either a standard, move, swift, immediate, free, or full-round action. If something is not one of those types, it is not an "action" as Pathfinder defines it.

For instance, "defending yourself" (meaning not losing your DEX bonus to AC) is not an action. For that matter, a 5ft step is even listed in the table in the Combat chapter as "No Action".

Scarab Sages

Jiggy wrote:
Winterwalker wrote:
Masika wrote:


AoO is not an action

Yes it is! If you do nothing you are not acting, if you do something it is an action.

"Action" is a reserved game term, with a meaning defined by the rules rather than simply using its plain-english definition. An action in Pathfinder is either a standard, move, swift, immediate, free, or full-round action. If something is not one of those types, it is not an "action" as Pathfinder defines it.

For instance, "defending yourself" (meaning not losing your DEX bonus to AC) is not an action. For that matter, a 5ft step is even listed in the table in the Combat chapter as "No Action".

I full heartly agree. That was my logical as an AoO does not fit into the definition of an action.

They way I view AoO is that it is part of the acting characters turn. They acting character announces and performance some type of action which results in another character who threatens the acting character. The AoO is resolved immediately and the acting character continues with their turn.

I do not see AoO as something that occurs out of action... I think it is an instant that occurs straight away. Which leads me to the next headache... can a character interrupt an AoO with an immediate action. I say no. :)


Winterwalker wrote:
prove via RAW it is NOT an attack action and I will recant.

In the combat chapter, under Combat Statistics, it says "(see the attack action)."

The words "attack action" are hyperlinked to Attack which says "Making an attack is a standard action."

The "Attack Action" is a (poorly worded) standard action, used to make a regular single attack. This is the action you must use in order to use the Vital Strike feat or the Overhand Chop Two-Handed Fighter ability without charging.

Jason Bulmahn (the Pathfinder Lead Designer) has verified this:

An attack action is a type of standard action.
Vital Strike is an attack action, btw, which is a standard action.
Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action.

So has James Jacobs, the creative director:

Since vital strike requires an attack action (a specific KIND of standard action...

So there we go. The attack action is a specific kind of standard action, just like reading a scroll, or total defense, or stabilizing someone with the heal skill.

The reason people are misunderstanding your position is that you're stating it incorrectly. When you say "attack action" that means a specific kind of standard action. So when you then say an AoO is an attack action, you're factually incorrect, and so are any conclusions you draw from that.

You'll probably be better off if you view being corrected as something positive and helpful, rather than "highbrowing" you, which I assume is an insult.

Scarab Sages

@ Grick's post immediately above

+1

That was the point I was harping on.


Jiggy wrote:
GM Jeff wrote:

Attack of Opportunity is a free single melee attack.

An attack is a standard action.

Now, see, this isn't helpful. Even if your final conclusion on the topic at hand is correct, your argument to get there is wrong, and is based on an untrue premise.

Making a normal, single attack on your turn is a standard action. That doesn't mean other attacks are standard actions.

When you use TWF for instance, you make two attacks, but you don't use any standard actions. You in fact forfeit your standard action in order to get a full-round action to make two attacks. You can also ready an action to attack, but it's the act of readying that's a standard action (spent when you declare it), and the resulting attack is not a standard action. And as the OP has been asserting, an AoO is not a standard action either.

You're all correct that you can't take AoO's while dazed, but it has nothing to do with them being standard actions, because they're not.

Even when you happen to be right about the final outcome, it's not very helpful for your case when the reasoning behind your stance demonstrates a lack of understanding of the action system that's central to the whole game.

Maybe I should've been clearer...

Attack of Opportunity is a free melee attack.

An attack is a standard action. (Note: Yes, there are many exceptions where an attack is not a standard action, however the attack granted from Attack of Opportunity is not one of them).

The Attack of Opportunity/Melee attack is a free standard action.

Liberty's Edge

Grick wrote:
Winterwalker wrote:
prove via RAW it is NOT an attack action and I will recant.

In the combat chapter, under Combat Statistics, it says "(see the attack action)."

The words "attack action" are hyperlinked to Attack which says "Making an attack is a standard action."

The "Attack Action" is a (poorly worded) standard action, used to make a regular single attack. This is the action you must use in order to use the Vital Strike feat or the Overhand Chop Two-Handed Fighter ability without charging.

Jason Bulmahn (the Pathfinder Lead Designer) has verified this:

An attack action is a type of standard action.
Vital Strike is an attack action, btw, which is a standard action.
Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action.

So has James Jacobs, the creative director:

Since vital strike requires an attack action (a specific KIND of standard action...

So there we go. The attack action is a specific kind of standard action, just like reading a scroll, or total defense, or stabilizing someone with the heal skill.

The reason people are misunderstanding your position is that you're stating it incorrectly. When you say "attack action" that means a specific kind of standard action. So when you then say an AoO is an attack action, you're factually incorrect, and so...

I may not be relaying the information properly, or overlapping my use of "action" with the defined rules, I'll give you that. Maybe I should of used "option."

That doesn't change it's still a 'free' action, and a melee attack. both still negated by the you can take no actions description of Dazed.

That better?


GM Jeff wrote:
Attack of Opportunity is a free melee attack.

Correct.

GM Jeff wrote:
An attack is a standard action.

Incorrect.

Some attacks are indeed standard actions. Such as the attack made with the attack action.

Other attacks are not standard actions. Such as attacks made as part of a full-attack, or from casting a touch spell, or an attack of opportunity.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Masika wrote:
Which leads me to the next headache... can a character interrupt an AoO with an immediate action. I say no. :)

There's nothing saying that a non-action can't be interrupted. In fact, sometimes an AoO can itself provoke an AoO, allowing it to be interrupted.

Fun example:
Two duelists square off with their rapiers, intending to disarm each other. They both have high DEX modifiers and Combat Reflexes, but neither has Improved Disarm.

One of them wins initiative, and attempts a Disarm as a standard action. This provokes an AoO, which the second duelist uses to perform a Disarm of his own, which in turn provokes from the first duelist, who uses the AoO (on his own turn!) to Disarm, which provokes, and so on.

Eventually, the second duelist (assuming they both have the same DEX) runs out of AoO's for the round, letting the first duelist's most recent Disarm resolve. We continue to resolve Disarms in reverse order until one of them is successful.

All during the first duelist's first standard action. ;)

Liberty's Edge

Masika wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Winterwalker wrote:
Masika wrote:


AoO is not an action

Yes it is! If you do nothing you are not acting, if you do something it is an action.

"Action" is a reserved game term, with a meaning defined by the rules rather than simply using its plain-english definition. An action in Pathfinder is either a standard, move, swift, immediate, free, or full-round action. If something is not one of those types, it is not an "action" as Pathfinder defines it.

For instance, "defending yourself" (meaning not losing your DEX bonus to AC) is not an action. For that matter, a 5ft step is even listed in the table in the Combat chapter as "No Action".

I full heartly agree. That was my logical as an AoO does not fit into the definition of an action.

They way I view AoO is that it is part of the acting characters turn. They acting character announces and performance some type of action which results in another character who threatens the acting character. The AoO is resolved immediately and the acting character continues with their turn.

I do not see AoO as something that occurs out of action... I think it is an instant that occurs straight away. Which leads me to the next headache... can a character interrupt an AoO with an immediate action. I say no. :)

AoO's are in themselves an immediate action in response to a previous condition(i.e. something provoked.), you'd need to be more specific and explain the scenario, but I would 'assume' no you can't trump an AoO with an immediate action. With the possible exception that if your AoO somehow provoked an AoO...that gets kinda headachey though.

But maybe that depends on what is trying to trump what


Winterwalker wrote:
I may not be relaying the information properly, or overlapping my use of "action" with the defined rules

Yes. If you only use the specific game term when you mean it, it'll be a lot more clear.

Winterwalker wrote:
That doesn't change it's still a 'free' action, and a melee attack.

A Free action is a specific game term. Free actions can only be taken on your turn, unless the specific free action says otherwise. (such as Speaking)

Scarab Sages

Jiggy wrote:
Masika wrote:
Which leads me to the next headache... can a character interrupt an AoO with an immediate action. I say no. :)

There's nothing saying that a non-action can't be interrupted. In fact, sometimes an AoO can itself provoke an AoO, allowing it to be interrupted.

** spoiler omitted **

*Runs holding his ears*

Don't tell me this!!!

I thought I was getting somewhere :)

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Masika wrote:
AoO is not an action

Yes it is.

It's an immediate action.

But it's still an action.


Winterwalker wrote:
AoO's are in themselves an immediate action

An Immediate Action is a specific game term.

An AoO is also not a swift action, or a move action, or a full-round action, just to get that out of the way.

Liberty's Edge

Grick wrote:
Winterwalker wrote:
I may not be relaying the information properly, or overlapping my use of "action" with the defined rules

Yes. If you only use the specific game term when you mean it, it'll be a lot more clear.

Winterwalker wrote:
That doesn't change it's still a 'free' action, and a melee attack.

A Free action is a specific game term. Free actions can only be taken on your turn, unless the specific free action says otherwise. (such as Speaking)

This AoO mechanic does say you can make this free action out of turn. But does that make it not a free action? It's still 'something' either way, and Dazed still trumps it. :)


JohnF wrote:
Masika wrote:
AoO is not an action

Yes it is.

It's an immediate action.

It is not. If you take an AoO, you are not denied your swift action for your next turn.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Winterwalker wrote:
AoO's are in themselves an immediate action

Actually, "immediate action" is a specific type of action (most notably, one which you only get one of per round and which uses up your next turn's swift action). AoO's are not immediate actions.

Liberty's Edge

Grick wrote:
Winterwalker wrote:
AoO's are in themselves an immediate action

An Immediate Action is a specific game term.

An AoO is also not a swift action, or a move action, or a full-round action, just to get that out of the way.

I'm gonna give you RAW that it isn't called out as being an immediate action, but it "immediately" takes precedence like one per it's RAW, and is mainly semantics at that point. As it interrupts the current actions of the provoker.

But I recant there, sure.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Winterwalker wrote:
I'm gonna give you RAW that it isn't called out as being an immediate action, but it "immediately" takes precedence like one

When you use a specific game term (like "immediate action"), readers will (rightly) assume you mean what the term means. Hence the friction/resistance you've encountered in this thread. You seem like you have a reasonable handle on how things actually go, it's just that when you explain it, you say things that you don't actually mean and that are actually wrong.

If you brush up on your terminology, I imagine you'll have a much smoother experience in the Rules Forum. Otherwise, expect to have to explain yourself a lot, like you had to in this thread. :P

Scarab Sages

I still do not agree that an AoO is an action. I respectfully add more fuel against GM Jeff point.
"Free Actions

Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.

Cease Concentration on Spell

You can stop concentrating on a spell as a free action.

Drop an Item

Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.

Drop Prone

Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action."

Note that an AoO is not listed as a common free action.

Secondly, a character can not make more than one standard action in a turn. A Free action does not allow you to break this rule. A free action is an action that takes you virtually no time... are you suggesting an attack at full BAB takes no time?

Thirdly, if an AoO was a free action it would appear in the offical actions in combat table.

An AoO is not an action!!!! It just happens. :)

Scarab Sages

I will add in a separate post, I can see the logic that lead GM Jeff to a free standard action...
"Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity."

Linking the words there you deduce free attack that leads to free standard action. I hope my above post points out the error in this deduction.

1 to 50 of 88 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Another AoO question All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.