This battle would come down to wishcraft, I think. So in terms of items, get lots of rings of three wishes, scrolls of wish, whatever else will let everyone in the party drop wishes once (or twice!) per turn.
Wish can get you into an individual fight without having to deal with endless hordes of devils and never meeting Lucifer himself (wish to transport yourselves into Lucifer's presence), and you will probably also end up making very heavy use of the undo misfortune power to roll back reality whenever Lucifer succeeds in doing something debilitating or to counterspell whenever he uses magic that you don't want him to.
As far as actually hurting him goes - the shadow idea someone mentioned earlier isn't bad. He isn't immune to negative levels, either, so 2 Spell Perfected quickened maximized penetrating enervations per round from your casters might make a little dent.
I count perhaps 22 caster level 8 spell penetration/greater spell penetration (with Spell Perfection), 4 more from elf with a robe of the archmagi, and effective +5 from piercing spell, for a total of say +39 vs SR 50. Not a sure thing, but not bad considering (and the rest of your party can use Wish rerolls to make sure it sticks - or you could skip the various feats and use Wish/Limited Wish yourself to make sure it bypasses SR regardless of bonus.
(Given that automatically hitting with a single attack is within the power of Limited Wish, I would say that automatically bypassing SR is as well - or if your GM rules otherwise, it should at any rate certainly be within the power of a full Wish).
You might be able to defeat him in combat, buy I don't think you'll kill him. Just send him back where he came from and, sooner of later, he'll come back and kill the lot of you, one by one, while you are least expecting it. :-)
Good luck with that.
What is your party makeup? Or are you creating custom builds for this?
why do people always assume that wish can do anything? they changed that in pathfinder to have very certain restrictions.
Ie you cannot auto win initiative, cast mass true strike, max damage on attack rolls, and so on and so forth. Because there is no spell in the entire book that allows that, and besides some really cool bonus abilities, then all a wish spell can do is copy other spells for the effects.
The only spell in the book that allows for this sort of handwave solution is miracle where you request major help from the diety, as all the description say is that its DM fiat. But as the other good dieties havent killed lucifer yet, im not sure that they will be too willing to directly join the fight, anyway it would be complete GM fiat vs GM fiat.
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All these tactics involve summoning things that also can't do enough damage,if any, and die almost immediately. As stated above, they also involve wishes, the most unstable form of magic there is. This is a no-win situation. All the flashy tactics won't help killing something meant for a party 19 levels higher. This creature will A)hardly be hit phsyically, B) only fail a save on a 1, C) Kill those that fail ANY save with save-or-die at-will abilities.
If you can get a staff of power and get him to somehow willingly break it you have a 50/50 shot at killing him... or sending him to another plane... which... uh...
Well lets try not to think of that.
Ninja plain and simple a level 20 ninja he cant be seen and lucifer cant Gaze at somethign he cant see sure it will take like 100 years of hits
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Howabout every PC just carries a Mirror of Opposition and then secures it from Shatter spells and the like once their own personal Lucifer is on the table? Then run and hide before you're charmed into smashing your mirrors. In fact, get all your friends and their friends and their friends' pets together and have a Battle of 1000 Lucifers!
That would be so metal.
All these tactics involve summoning things that also can't do enough damage,if any, and die almost immediately. As stated above, they also involve wishes, the most unstable form of magic there is.
Only unstable if you exceed the guidelines for the spell's power. Which you should not need to do. Wish will be most useful for the avoiding misfortune power or for countering Lucifer's magic, neither of which requires stretching beyond the given examples for the spell's power.
This is a no-win situation. All the flashy tactics won't help killing something meant for a party 19 levels higher. This creature will A)hardly be hit phsyically, B) only fail a save on a 1, C) Kill those that fail ANY save with save-or-die at-will abilities.
Things like autohitting with an attack roll only require a limited wish, not even a full wish. So you should not have to worry about A) whatsoever provided the proper preparation. Just have to worry about making your hits count.
Good ways to make them count are with combat maneuvers (auto-pass a disarm with a Limited Wish to remove his super weapon, or auto-succeed at grappling and then pinning Lucifer for someone with Greater Grapple).
C) can be relatively well countered with readied Wishes, or with Moments of Prescience for emergencies.
We are a party of 5 lvl20 adventurers and we know we will be facing lucifer (cr39) next month. Our dm gives us the possibility to create any equipment we want using any book(no pre-created allowed) to challenge him. How is it possible to defeat him?
Personnally I believe that he wasn't created to ever be de-throned.
Faith.
You might be able to defeat him in combat, buy I don't think you'll kill him. Just send him back where he came from and, sooner of later, he'll come back and kill the lot of you, one by one, while you are least expecting it. :-)
Good luck with that.
When you kill a Devcil/Demon on their own plane (or if called): one of two things happen:
a. he is destroyed forever.b. They are destroyued till their reform in 1000 years
So I doubt you'll care if he comes back.
According to his Tactics, he summons Pit Fiends, and lets them fight first. So he laughs at your spells till they die (meaning he doesn't expect it when you Combo-him)
High ranks in perform (fiddle).
Dang it. You beat me to it!
High ranks in perform (fiddle).Dang it. You beat me to it!
I was suprised I was the first.
High ranks in perform (fiddle).
"The Fairness In Hell Act of 2275 requires me to inform you that if you can best me in a fiddle contest, you win back Bender's soul. As well as a solid gold fiddle." -- Beezelbot, the Robot Devil
Gary
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This. Make sure you use ALL the books :)
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This. Make sure you use ALL the books :)
YES THIS, a thousand times this ^^
And lso [http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/08/23]this[/url]and of course
[http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/08/25]this[/url]
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Umm... I don't know if this'll work because I haven't scoured Lucifer's sheet to see if he's immune, but here's my plan:
(assume the Samurai and Paladin are not already these types)
Have the Samurai renounce his order and become a Ronin.
Have the Paladin ask to retrain to a Holy Tactician.
Buff to make sure that the Ronin and Paladin win initiative.
Paladin uses Weal's Champion on Lucifer (whatever else is irrelevant).
Entire party devotes to making sure that the ronin can get a hit on Lucifer.
Ronin uses a +1 Vorpal sword to attack Lucifer.
He uses his Chosen Destiny ability to make the roll a '20'.
The Holy Tactician's capstone causes the hit to auto-confirm.
Lucifer's head comes off.
Is this win?
Edit: included paladin using Weal's Champion on Lucifer
Darn! Thought I was onto something, and then the thread dies.
Darn! Thought I was onto something, and then the thread dies.
I think he has some form of fortification so that might negate the crit. IIRC heavy fortification has a 75% of stopping crits in pathfinder. Of course that brings up the debate of whether a vorpal works on a crit or if it just needs a nat 20. A debate I never saw resolved in 3.5.
edit:Before someone says a nat 20 is crit, the difference, if there is one, actually matters when it comes to the vorpal ability.
Darn! Thought I was onto something, and then the thread dies.I think he has some form of fortification so that might negate the crit. IIRC heavy fortification has a 75% of stopping crits in pathfinder. Of course that brings up the debate of whether a vorpal works on a crit or if it just needs a nat 20. A debate I never saw resolved in 3.5.
edit:Before someone says a nat 20 is crit, the difference, if there is one, actually matters when it comes to the vorpal ability.
Vorpal works regardless of immunity to Crits (even Vampires have head cut off). Just need a Nat 20. It is even in the text.
I say Planeshift a Tarrasque at Lucifer. There is no way to kill it, he'll never stand a chance.
Read some Hellblazer back issues. A couple of plot tricks to beating the devil there.
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I say Planeshift a Tarrasque at Lucifer. There is no way to kill it, he'll never stand a chance.
It still drops at 0 hit points. And he has an infinite supply of devils to throw at it.
I find it amusing that so many of these "strategies" assume that he'll fight fairly, and actually just stand there going toe-to-toe with the party. If that's how you would play the original lord of all devils, then that's just sad.
The Tarrasque can eat him, but not digest him. If he thought H@ll was bad...
Another idea I was working on, banish him to a demi-plane, wish the plane far out into the outer darkness, where no spell or ritual can ever reach it.
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It still drops at 0 hit points. And he has an infinite supply of devils to throw at it.
I find it amusing that so many of these "strategies" assume that he'll fight fairly, and actually just stand there going toe-to-toe with the party. If that's how you would play the original lord of all devils, then that's just sad.
Ditto
Any major devil worth it's salt will make people and places the party has gone to suffer. If the party is that strong, then laying waste to entire cities just to let the players know that they've PO's him is not without merit
Send a few torture devils to Mom and Dad, an Eyrine to brother/sister, a Pit Fiend to an old friend, a pleasure devil to a few aquaintences
Make those devils fight like, well the scum and villains they are
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Umm... I don't know if this'll work because I haven't scoured Lucifer's sheet to see if he's immune, but here's my plan:
(assume the Samurai and Paladin are not already these types)
Have the Samurai renounce his order and become a Ronin.
Have the Paladin ask to retrain to a Holy Tactician.
Buff to make sure that the Ronin and Paladin win initiative.
Paladin uses Weal's Champion on Lucifer (whatever else is irrelevant).
Entire party devotes to making sure that the ronin can get a hit on Lucifer.
Ronin uses a +1 Vorpal sword to attack Lucifer.
He uses his Chosen Destiny ability to make the roll a '20'.
The Holy Tactician's capstone causes the hit to auto-confirm.
Lucifer's head comes off.
Is this win?
Edit: included paladin using Weal's Champion on Lucifer
Nasty trick. Then again a wish protects you from that once so he might have taken that precaution ^^ ... or not.
I do not think this is even a realistic fight ESP if it takes place in Hell
Lucifer will/would fight on his terms and probably not even bother to actually enter the fight himself.
However, should he truely feel a threat from the party
Round 1: Summon (level 9, each arch-devil to Lucifer’s palace in Hell 100%; functions only in Hell)
Then Round 2: ALL arch devil's and Lucifer use Gate/summon
Now you are fighting several Arch Devils AND many pit fiends or the like. Lucifer would just stand back and watch, and continue to summon/gate devils in to this fight.
Lucifer no longer lives in hell. He lives in Infernus. So that is useless.
Find a cyclops and bribe/mindcontrol/reanimate as templated undead and control/whatever you have to do to get him to help you. Give him a vorpal sword.
Have him select an automatic natural 20 vs Lucifer on his first to hit roll. Have someone standing by with a Limited Wish to automatically succeed on the attack roll to confirm the crit.
Snicker-snack.
The rest of the party is running interference with Wishes. Their job is to use the Wishes to get the cyclops into position to make his attack without him getting killed first, and to undo anything Lucifer does that makes that a problem.
Magic jar?
Turn 1: Time Stop
Turn 2: Wish: Make Luci Vulnerable to Magic Jar
Turn 3: Wish: Make Luci auto fail Will Save to Magic Jar
Turn 4: Use Magic Jar
Turn 5: Seppuku
Darn! Thought I was onto something, and then the thread dies.I think he has some form of fortification so that might negate the crit. IIRC heavy fortification has a 75% of stopping crits in pathfinder. Of course that brings up the debate of whether a vorpal works on a crit or if it just needs a nat 20. A debate I never saw resolved in 3.5.
edit:Before someone says a nat 20 is crit, the difference, if there is one, actually matters when it comes to the vorpal ability.
Vorpal works regardless of immunity to Crits (even Vampires have head cut off). Just need a Nat 20. It is even in the text.
I say Planeshift a Tarrasque at Lucifer. There is no way to kill it, he'll never stand a chance.
Fortication does not grant immunity to crits. It supposedly stops the crit from taking place when it would have landed otherwise similar to making a ride check while you are mounted.
Gate Gilgamesh, Divine King of Heroes. Gilgamesh Trumps any god.
Awesome Thread! :-)
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To be clear, you're not just dealing with a CR 39 creature that has about 1000 hit points. You're dealing with a CR 39 creature who is able to summon 1-3 CR 20 creatures, each with 350 HP. Also, Lucifer has a single mass heal spell prepared, so you can expect to tack on another 190 hit points to himself.
Lucifer can Quicken his fireball spell-like ability, which means he can toss around 10d6 points of fire damage with a DC 25 Ref save for half as a swift action three times per day. And that's assuming your DM is going to go by the books rather than saying that the fires of Lucifer are empowered by his divine might and let him ignore the CL cap (in which case, you could be facing up to 39d6 fire damage as a swift action).
Additionally, Lucifer can force any creature that is looking at him to make a DC 47 Will save or have a 75% chance of losing each action.
Or, you know, he just gives you a -8 penalty to all your saving throws and then annihilates you.
I'd also like to point out that this is all just his personal power. He's also the ruler of an entire plane. So on top of all that, throw in an infinite supply of devils.
Find a cyclops and bribe/mindcontrol/reanimate as templated undead and control/whatever you have to do to get him to help you. Give him a vorpal sword.
Have him select an automatic natural 20 vs Lucifer on his first to hit roll. Have someone standing by with a Limited Wish to automatically succeed on the attack roll to confirm the crit.
Snicker-snack.
The rest of the party is running interference with Wishes. Their job is to use the Wishes to get the cyclops into position to make his attack without him getting killed first, and to undo anything Lucifer does that makes that a problem.
PLAN STEALER!
It seems like a slightly more convoluted plan, though.
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Hold up a cross and repeat "the power of christ compells you." Probalby won't accomplish much, but it'll make you feel better right up until he bites your head off.
Did anybody ever just try giving him a toy?