Page of Spell Knowledge (UE) and UMD


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

Tom Sampson wrote:
I did read both, although apparently I focused on the wrong line for the ring. (The line I focused on was "Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level." rather than "Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.") Kindly refrain from jumping to accusations.
Tom Sampson wrote:


Since you are bothering to make this argument, I am going to assume you have no real experience with UMD.


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Admittedly that came out more accusatory than I meant it. I was making more of an a observation, really. And frankly, that was the sort of question that indicates inexperience with UMD.

Liberty's Edge

Tom Sampson wrote:
Admittedly that came out more accusatory than I meant it. I was making more of an a observation, really. And frankly, that was the sort of question that indicates inexperience with UMD.

Tom, your replies about UMD show that you don't know its limits.

Using UMD to appear good to an item don't change/remove your original alignment. So using UMD you can convince the gate to work as if you were good, but in addition it still affect you as you were evil too.

You are in the same position of a half elf using a item that will help elves but harm human. You get both effects.

If you use your interpretation it would be possible to sue UMD ti convince a scroll of holy word that your evil rogue is good and so make it immune from the spell when cast.

You tried to patch your initial position changing how your example gate work:

Tom Sampson wrote:


Lets say the gate was worded like this - "For any good person, the gate will let them pass. Otherwise, if they are evil, the gate will vaporize them when they try." A Rogue can UMD the gate so that it treats them as good, and walk right through.

that could work if you interpret "pass" as activating the gate, depending on how the gate work, but I would require a better definition of the item operation. As written the rogue isn't activating the item at all, so it is a bit of a gray area if he can use UMD on it.

Again, your interpretation would have the rogue able to bypass a Forbiddance spell if generated by an item but not if cast by hand.

PRD wrote:

Check: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below.

"You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate." and "The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below."

That table hasn't a entry for "class" so you can't choose to emulate a class.

Tom Sampson wrote:
Diego rossi wrote:
Again: being a divine spellcaster isn't a class feature.
And I'm afraid you just confirmed my assumption.

You did even reiterate it, wile still being wrong.

The feature is spells. Not divine caster. There is no UMD ability that change the source of your spells.
The incense require you to be "a divine spellcaster", show me where the UMD table allow you to change the source of your spells.

Silver Crusade

Tom Sampson wrote:
Lets say the gate was worded like this - "For any good person, the gate will let them pass. Otherwise, if they are evil, the gate will vaporize them when they try." A Rogue can UMD the gate so that it treats them as good, and walk right through.

Well if you’re going to go with a twisted unreasonable item description designed to let UMD bypass it why not just make it if you’re good or you can succeed on a DC xx UMD check you can pass. As written you’re trying to write in a loop hole for UMD to validate your point. As written the gate does not require a UMD check so you cannot UMD past anything.

The fact that you may have used UMD to let you pass an alignment restriction on an item that you should not be able to use UMD on does not give your argument “I got more experience so I am right” any more weight.

If your evil and you pick up a holy avenger you get a -1 level, if you use UMD you can use the sword to its fill effect but you retain the -1 level.

Below is the answer you seek even if you can UMD the spell knowledge page you cannot cast it unless it is on your spell list.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.


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Yes, the question of Page of Spell Knowledge working with UMD has indeed been answered by the FAQ.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Tom, your replies about UMD show that you don't know its limits.

Using UMD to appear good to an item don't change/remove your original alignment. So using UMD you can convince the gate to work as if you were good, but in addition it still affect you as you were evil too.

You are in the same position of a half elf using a item that will help elves but harm human. You get both effects.

Well, here: "Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user's alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time." While it doesn't explicitly state whether you are no longer treated as possessing your original alignment, it certainly implies it to my eyes, considering its implications towards avoiding negative effects based on your original alignment and its restriction against emulating multiple alignments. So, there is a difference of opinion between the two of us on this issue. To me, it would be reasonable to infer that for the purposes of the item, you should be treated as possessing only that alignment (esp. considering that simultaneously possessing multiple alignments is impossible). Since this is not directly stated in the text, I suppose there could be table variation on the issue. I have a feeling most GMs would lean back towards one alignment only if I were to find an item that gives different perks based on alignment with the question of whether I could UMD it for a multiple perks option, however.

Quote:
You tried to patch your initial position changing how your example gate work:

Frankly, I was just avoiding getting bogged down in another digression with a quick patch so that I could move on with the actual example instead. At no point did I agree with your assessment, I'm afraid.

Quote:
that could work if you interpret "pass" as activating the gate, depending on how the gate work, but I would require a better definition of the item operation. As written the rogue isn't activating the item at all, so it is a bit of a gray area if he can use UMD on it.

A magic gate is certainly a magic device. It responds differently based on the user's alignment, and the "use" of a magic gate seems obvious enough, so the magic gate can be UMD'd for a desired alignment-based response.

Quote:
If you use your interpretation it would be possible to sue UMD ti convince a scroll of holy word that your evil rogue is good and so make it immune from the spell when cast.

I suppose you could debate that point but many GMs will rule that while you can alter the item's behavior with UMD, you can't alter the spell it casts. So for instance, I could UMD a scroll of Paragon Surge to count as a Half-Elf to activate the scroll itself, but I still wouldn't count as a Half-Elf target for the actual spell (a theoretical exercise as most GMs aren't asinine enough to have you still expend a scroll without being able to use the spell just because you misunderstood UMD).

Quote:
Again, your interpretation would have the rogue able to bypass a Forbiddance spell if generated by an item but not if cast by hand.

If the item generates its own forbiddance-type effect, yes. If the item just casts forbiddance, no. It's the difference between UMDing a device and UMDing a spell (which is not a legal use of the skill).

Quote:

That table hasn't a entry for "class" so you can't choose to emulate a class.

The feature is spells. Not divine caster. There is no UMD ability that change the source of your spells.
The incense require you to be "a divine spellcaster", show me where the UMD table allow you to change the source of your spells.

It still falls under the "emulate a class feature" entry. Let us look at the Cleric's Spells class feature: "Spells: A cleric casts divine spells." By UMDing the "Spells" class feature, one additionally obtains the considerations of "divine caster" and "cleric" because these are inherent to the class feature and therefore to being considered a user of the "Spells" feature of the cleric. You are putting forth the exceedingly bizarre interpretation that I can UMD a class feature to use a device yet still fail to use a device which would be satisfied by actually possessing the indicated class feature. I'm afraid I find such an interpretation, while understandable at first glance, to be erroneous upon deeper consideration.

Thus, I must profess I do consider your understanding of UMD rules to be immature. This is not said to insult you or otherwise condescend via some form of elitism. It is only said in the hope that you would further your understanding of the UMD rules should you wish to engage UMD rules discourse as an arbitrator. Perhaps not the most agreeable sentiment, all told, but there you have it.

I apologize for any harshness or rudeness on my part.


The Sleeper wrote:
Tom Sampson wrote:
Lets say the gate was worded like this - "For any good person, the gate will let them pass. Otherwise, if they are evil, the gate will vaporize them when they try." A Rogue can UMD the gate so that it treats them as good, and walk right through.

Well if you’re going to go with a twisted unreasonable item description designed to let UMD bypass it why not just make it if you’re good or you can succeed on a DC xx UMD check you can pass. As written you’re trying to write in a loop hole for UMD to validate your point. As written the gate does not require a UMD check so you cannot UMD past anything.

The fact that you may have used UMD to let you pass an alignment restriction on an item that you should not be able to use UMD on does not give your argument “I got more experience so I am right” any more weight.

If your evil and you pick up a holy avenger you get a -1 level, if you use UMD you can use the sword to its fill effect but you retain the -1 level.

Below is the answer you seek even if you can UMD the spell knowledge page you cannot cast it unless it is on your spell list.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

Doesn't this FAQ remove a specific function of the ring of spell knowledge?


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We went over that on the last page. Apparently not: Ring of Spell Knowledge also has you treat the spell as if it were on your class list.

By the way, you can UMD a Ring of Spell Knowledge to treat a spell as if it were on your class list and thus avoid the +1 level penalty for storing or casting a spell not on your class list.


There needs to be a guide about UMD because I've seen a lot of people who are incredibly harsh to it. Even the devs.

To the naysayers on this topic. What is it that UMD should do?? Because you're completely negating one of it's uses, the alignment faking, and denying it most of it's other uses that are entirely legit.

Should it be, in your opinion, only usable for scrolls wands and staves (and even then not to fake cl or stats!!)

Si what is it that md can do that would make you happy??


I personally rule UMD very generously. I view it as the most powerful skill in the game. As written UMD can be game breaking. This is why Rings of Revelation were errata'd. As originally written, with specializing in UMD it was possible to get AC into the 40s or even 50s using Rings of Revelation for relatively cheap. In full disclosure, I had a character that took full advantage of this. Via a RoR with Time Sight (and getting moment of prescience) and then using that to boost UMD, I was able to to get a UMD check in the 70s for an effective oracle level in the 50s on the Air Barrier Revelation from a different ring. This gave a +26 armor bonus to AC. This was not even the most ridiculous combination. Using different rings you could have had a BAB in the 50s, as a 11th level character. Or you could channel as a 50th level life oracle. Needless to say the rings needed the errata. Opening up class features to UMD abuse was not the intent of the ring.

Now that the Rings of Recelation are out of the picture, I too would like to see a blog on what UMD can do and what is considered a "class feature". For example is being a member of a class as feature of being that class? (Can you UMD a holy avenger).


While that depiction might be considered by a vast majority as incredibly broken, I do not think those extreme exemples, easily handled by GM ruling, should affect the rest of the skill.

There is nothing game breaking about a bard casting fly or a sorcerer casting raise dead using his spell slots. This gives him variety, and it's a variety that had a hefty toll since he likely took a trait to get the skill and sorcerer's are skill shy which means he had to skimp on bluff diplomacy intimidate and such.

Then he had to pay for the page and then he even has to pay the 5000 go price tag on raise dead for a spell he doesn't cast that often.

There is a time for harsh ruling but I do not think that pages of spell knowledge are it and I do not think that the power of umd should be an immediate no Everytime someone tries something.


I'm going to have to disagree with FiddlersGreen

Let's look at the item description.
If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known.

And now let's look the skill description.
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

So, I hold the item, and invoke my Use Magic Device Skill to Emulate a Class Feature, in this case Spells-Sorceror.

With a success, the item now accepts I can cast arcane spells on the sorcerer/wizard spell list and my class level in casting those arcane spells equals the Use Magic Device check result minus 20. I do not have these abilities, but the item just thinks I do.

The item now accepts I am a spontaneous spellcaster (of type Sorcerer) so condition one of the item requirements is met. I have now also have the spell the item holds on that class spell list (sorcerer), so condition two is met. Having met the two conditions required by the item, I may now use my spell slots to cast that spell. The item does not say what spell slots I must use, only that they be mine. We can infer many things, but unlike other items, the item description neglects to say that the slot must be of the correct type as they do with scrolls, even if they must that class slots. They only requirement listed for the item is that the spell slots are mine.

An FAQ with "may use her spell slots OF THAT CLASS to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known." would clear this up. Until that time, the only three requirements are
1.) spontaneous spellcaster
2.) spell on her class spell list
3.) spell slots


In an effort to simply the discussion, let's leave UMD aside for a moment.

1. Could a sorcerer 1/oracle 10 with a page of spell knowledge (fireball) cast fireball using an oracle spell slot?
2. Could a wizard 1/oracle 10 do the same?


blahpers wrote:

In an effort to simply the discussion, let's leave UMD aside for a moment.

1. Could a sorcerer 1/oracle 10 with a page of spell knowledge (fireball) cast fireball using an oracle spell slot?
2. Could a wizard 1/oracle 10 do the same?

Until Pazio fixes their mistake, yes as all three conditions are met.

It's on your list, and you have slots.

My post was to illustrate that Pazio needs to really update this item and the spell lattice too. They completely, and utterly forget, to add the source of the slots as a requirement. They did it for scrolls.


Here is the rub and the major confusion, with the UMD, are you emulating the class on top of your existing class, Or, are you emulating the class in addition to your class?

The UMD description of emulating level would infer the latter and not the former, but that is missing from the item's description. Devoid of that, we have to infer many things such as slot origin and type.

Why in the world Pazio skipped this is beyond me. UM has been out for some time and still nothing on it, then they go and add another identical item with the lattice.

Strict GMs will inject slot origin and type. Ambitious players will infer the wording, leaving everybody else wondering and debating.


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My mistake, Pazio did update their faq. The links in this thread were not functining, but I found it. Sorry, folks. Move along.


You cannot do this.

PRD

Use Magic Device wrote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

PRD

Page of Spell Knowledge wrote:
This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. A page of spell knowledge is priced based on the spell's cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell level, unless the spell doesn't appear on either of those spell lists, in which case it is based on the highest spell level as it appears on any other spell list. For example, a spell that is on the 4th-level inquisitor list and the 2nd-level paladin list is priced as a 4th-level spell.

How do you activate the page? It does not have anything to activate. Therefore, you cannot use the page to allow you to cast other spells.

/cevah

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