The Real Problems In Pathfinder


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Yeah I would recommend Galaxy at War, Galaxy of Intrigue and the Scum And Villainy books in addiiton to the core books for best bang for buck purchases.

Liberty's Edge

Zardnaar wrote:
Probably not but I'm DMIng the Kingmaker AP and we've reached level 10. The same probelmes in 3.5 ar starting to turn up again.

May I ask with you are using just Core or Core + Ultimates etc?

S.


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I think this thread is asking the wrong question- essentially you are saying that for the game to be better it needs to have a couple of things.

1- defense should meet or beat offense as you level.
2- the classes should be more even.

1- I think this is a legitimate complaint, to an extent. It does seem strange that you, to a certain extent, can't avoid being hit... but you can make characters with near impossible to overcome AC's as well. I suppose I would need to think about this a little bit more. I recognize that things do increasing levels of damage as you progress in levels... but a properly balanced fight deals with that somehow. There is also the fact that combat takes longer in this game due to all the moving pieces. in 2nd ed your defense couldn't keep up either, the BEST you could was -10 AC and that was not that difficult to overcome by 7th or 8th level.

2- I guess I don't know what this means exactly. I like the game breaking spells. I like that a wizard gets super powerful with his 9th level spells (at 17th level). yes gate is bad ass- but thats the extreme, and a fighter is pretty bad ass himself at 17th level, massive AC, moving at the speed of light due to heavy armor and armor training, massive damage to anything he comes in contact with. So if the issue is that wizards are bad ass, then okay- you win. If the issue is that spellcasters are so good that no one will play anything else.... well that is clearly not true. Every class fills a niche, and can be very fun to play. So what is more important that the classes are equal or that they are divergent. I think 4th ed is a good example of why the classes need to be unique. I will not say 4th ed is a bad game, I just prefer pathfinder. The classes are so different and all have a style and flair of their own, not just in fluff but in mechanics.

I suppose that any system developed has flaws, there is no perfect system and their probably (outside of the realm of theory) cannot be a perfect game. With that in mind Pathfinder has managed to eliminate the majority of the bad their system has. It is simply a matter of what compromises you are willing to make.


Zardnaar wrote:
Yeah I would recommend Galaxy at War, Galaxy of Intrigue and the Scum And Villainy books in addiiton to the core books for best bang for buck purchases.

Starships of the Galaxy is also an excellent book, adding a number of useful ways to increase the fun of space combat and adding upgrade rules for gear. You will find more of that in Scum and Villainy too, so that is nice. Also, any of the era books if there is a particular time frame you want to play in.


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Zardnaar wrote:


Magic items in Pathfinder are to easy to craft and they effectively double the recommended wealth by level guidelines. Short of a Pathfinder II I don't see any real solution to this.

Yes, magic items are easy to make. But unless you're giving out just cash and very little magic, the magic item crafting rules really don't lead to doubling the recommended wealth by level guidelines. Notice that you sell used magical gear and weapons/armor at half market value and you can create magic items for half market value. Those work pretty hard to cancel themselves out as factors.

The main problem with magic item crafting is it skews the availability of certain kinds of magic items like the Big 6 and caster-oriented goodies. A better balanced approach would emphasize more potions and equipment for the equipment-based classes (the martial classes, mainly).


I just wanna throw in here that I also appreciate that high-level casters can rock just about anything's face.
Fighter = Good with a sword.
Wizard = Good at bending space/time/whatever to his whims.

If you don't think there should be a difference in power there, I really don't know what to tell you, lol.

But I feel the pain of those fighter lovers out there. Because once upon a time, it was easier for said fighter to gain levels than it was for that wizard. So if a GM handed out equal xp to the entire group, the wizard would only be ~lvl 7-8 while the fighter has climbed into double-digits.
Now-a-days (3.X/Pathfinder) the classes all progress at the same speed, which just blows the entire PC power scale out of proportion.

(The good news, that I think most people don't realize, is that you can use the different "experience tracks" on different characters in the same game. Put the CoDzilla/Wizard on the Slow track while the Fighter gets to sit on the Fast or Medium track.)


Wildonion wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Yeah I would recommend Galaxy at War, Galaxy of Intrigue and the Scum And Villainy books in addiiton to the core books for best bang for buck purchases.
Starships of the Galaxy is also an excellent book, adding a number of useful ways to increase the fun of space combat and adding upgrade rules for gear. You will find more of that in Scum and Villainy too, so that is nice. Also, any of the era books if there is a particular time frame you want to play in.

Starshps of the Galaxy last I looked was pricey.

Dark Archive

Gorbacz wrote:
The Real Problem With Pathfinder Is That I Don't Have Enough Money To Buy It All.

Ayuh.


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Bill Dunn wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:


Magic items in Pathfinder are to easy to craft and they effectively double the recommended wealth by level guidelines. Short of a Pathfinder II I don't see any real solution to this.
Yes, magic items are easy to make. But unless you're giving out just cash and very little magic, the magic item crafting rules really don't lead to doubling the recommended wealth by level guidelines. Notice that you sell used magical gear and weapons/armor at half market value and you can create magic items for half market value. Those work pretty hard to cancel themselves out as factors.

This assumes that players would ever craft items to sell them to NPCs.

Paizo adventure paths generally have 120% WBL treasure for four players in them. This assumes that every magic item is sold for 50% of its market price. Sure, some of the loot will be kept by the players, but since most published adventures contain a lot of loot of dubious utility for specialized characters ( which most PCs will be ), it is not unreasonable to assume that about 75%-85% of WBL can be doubled by item crafters, if no checks and balances ( i.e. time constraints ) are put on them.

I'll post it again: Make item crafting costs 95% of market price and this problem goes away. In return, give players a possibility to craft faster ( either double magic item crafting rates or go with what I use for Jade Regent, another +5 to the Spellcraft DC to quarter creation time ).


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I predict this thread to grow long although everything has already been said.

The game itself is flexible enough to change or avoid whatever you perceive as a problem.

And, as 4e demonstracted, people can have what they ask for and still not be happy.


Nice to see Oberoni making an appearance in this thread.

Silver Crusade

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Neo2151 wrote:


I've played enough casters to know that it's about level 13 when the wizard doesn't really need a party anymore. So how does that make the party feel?

Maybe the other players in your group are poor at system mastery compared to you.

Maybe your GM is poor at running encounters and using monsters in the most optimal way.
Maybe your GM is poor at understanding how spells work and you get a free pass thanks to that.
Maybe your GM prefers to interpret any "GM decision" spells in your favor because he or she is a nice person and doesn't like saying "no".
Maybe you're poor at being a team player.

There are too many "maybes" for me to take "My wizard pwnz my gaming table therefore it pwnz every gaming table" statements remotely seriously.

Silver Crusade

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MicMan wrote:

I predict this thread to grow long although everything has already been said.

The game itself is flexible enough to change or avoid whatever you perceive as a problem.

And, as 4e demonstracted, people can have what they ask for and still not be happy.

People complain that 3.5 is unbalanced.

WotC balances everything in 4e. There's so much balancing that it makes chess look silly.

4e dies in flames among screams of disgrace 2 years later.

Hmmmmmm.


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While "all classes should be the same" is of course a stupid argument ( I am sure you could point out people who said that. Right? ), wanting classes feel generally balanced is not wrong. Unbalanced classes in either direction of the spectrum generate discord among the player base.


Gorbacz wrote:
MicMan wrote:

I predict this thread to grow long although everything has already been said.

The game itself is flexible enough to change or avoid whatever you perceive as a problem.

And, as 4e demonstracted, people can have what they ask for and still not be happy.

People complain that 3.5 is unbalanced.

WotC balances everything in 4e. There's so much balancing that it makes chess look silly.

4e dies in flames among screams of disgrace 2 years later.

Hmmmmmm.

Incidentally, if you ask 4e players, 4e was anything but balanced.


magnuskn wrote:
...wanting classes feel generally balanced is not wrong...

No, it's not wrong at all, it's just not D&D.


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MicMan wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
...wanting classes feel generally balanced is not wrong...
No, it's not wrong at all, it's just not D&D.

Good thing that we are playing Pathfinder.


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Gorbacz wrote:
The Real Problem With Pathfinder Is That I Don't Have Enough Money To Buy It All.

For me, it's not enough time :(

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
MicMan wrote:

I predict this thread to grow long although everything has already been said.

The game itself is flexible enough to change or avoid whatever you perceive as a problem.

And, as 4e demonstracted, people can have what they ask for and still not be happy.

People complain that 3.5 is unbalanced.

WotC balances everything in 4e. There's so much balancing that it makes chess look silly.

4e dies in flames among screams of disgrace 2 years later.

Hmmmmmm.

Incidentally, if you ask 4e players, 4e was anything but balanced.

Please, you've just shattered my delicate world. Twice ;-)


Gorbacz wrote:
MicMan wrote:

I predict this thread to grow long although everything has already been said.

The game itself is flexible enough to change or avoid whatever you perceive as a problem.

And, as 4e demonstracted, people can have what they ask for and still not be happy.

People complain that 3.5 is unbalanced.

WotC balances everything in 4e. There's so much balancing that it makes chess look silly.

4e dies in flames among screams of disgrace 2 years later.

Hmmmmmm.

4th ed went to far in terms of balance. It had a few advanatges here and there over PF and SWSE but overall it was lacking to put it politely.I'm not suggesting a rewrite of the PF rules just better class options for non spellcasters at higher levels and new rogue abilities etc.


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Zardnaar wrote:
Aunt Tony wrote:

I've always been so confused about the anti-caster sentiment among d20 critics.

It's not a PvP game. It's a team game.

And Fighters have their role to play, just as Wizards do, in making sure the party can achieve its goals. A party of just Wizards is a weak party indeed.

And and and -- it's not as if players are assumed to always start out at level 20. Most campaigns and adventures never venture past level 15 at the highest, and what's wrong with theoretical class power shifting with levels, even if it could be established that this is so? Low-level gritty adventures should suit the Ranger, Rogue and Barbarian, that's precisely where they're designed to shine, and shine they do indeed. What's more pathetic than a spellcasting-focused Wizard at level 1? Do we hear a cacophony of whiners about how weak spellcasters are at the low levels where the vast majority of play actually takes place? And what about the restrictions of Time and Money on spellcasters? Those material components don't just afford themselves, you know. It's a bad DM who simply gives a Wizard all the time in the world to set up as elaborate a plot as he pleases: why do you suppose the Lich is such an archtypical BBEG? It's because he's had a thousand years to prepare for one epic combat. Behind every complaint about spellcaster power is a lazy or ignorant DM who won't or can't enforce the Rules As Written and/or can't or won't be intelligent about the world he's supposed to design.

Regardless of where the classes end up in terms of the nebulous, unquantifiable quality called "power", characters must still survive and gain "power" throughout their adventuring careers -- don't just assume that all characters will do so! Early game survival is still a balancing factor. Those d10 HD and that Full BAB and that Full Plate Mail shouldn't be written off so casually.

Sounds like someone doesn't have nearly as much experience with the 3.X or d20 system as he thinks.

12 years of experience enough? What feat for...

That is not a proper measure of experience. The things you call problems are not really problems. There will always be people know how to get more of a system than other people. Depending on who I am playing with I could always dominate the table whether I use a caster or a DPR specialist. Pathfinder awards system mastery. Even 4E which was designed to make the classes more equal, some people just did better than others. As long as everyone can do their job there should not be an issue. I have yet to see any of the problems you listed that could not be solved in actual play.


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Neo2151 wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:


(The good news, that I think most people don't realize, is that you can use the different "experience tracks" on different characters in the same game. Put the CoDzilla/Wizard on the Slow track while the Fighter gets to sit on the Fast or Medium track.)
Good news is that most people realize that treating player X better than player Y just because the DM says that he thinks there's an imbalance between the classes is a horribad idea.

How is it any worse than, when getting into mid-high level play, the casters being so good that the non-casters feel worthless?

I've played enough casters to know that it's about level 13 when the wizard doesn't really need a party anymore. So how does that make the party feel?

That does not happen at my table. If a wizard tries to go solo he will be getting a brand new character sheet, and not because I am using GM Fiat either. A good GM can give the "party" something to do. It seems that if you GM had ran enough high level games he would know how to handle the game past level 13.


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Pathfinder has no issues that can't be solved by an inventive GM and mature players.

This applies to pretty much every system.

Silver Crusade

The only issue here is having a mega optimised character in a group of less optimised characters. Other than that this is not an issue.

Sure a wizard is a powerful class and rogues are weaker. But the dispartity isn't that major.

Magic item creation? Easy, limit the player's time and or spare cash.

In the games that I have run fighters are not out of place and wizards don't dominate. People still play monks and rogues despite their perceived weaknesses. Honestly the disparity isn't a big deal.

Shadow Lodge

Fleshgrinder wrote:

Pathfinder has no issues that can't be solved by an inventive GM and mature players.

This applies to pretty much every system.

Tell that to F.A.T.A.L.


If you solved all of FATAL's problems, you wouldn't be playing FATAL anymore.


If you solved all of Pathfinder's problems, would you still be playing Pathfinder?


Zardnaar wrote:
4th ed went to far in terms of balance...

No, that wasn't the problem. The problem was that WotC fixed what most people actually didn't think as broken and created a tabletop wargame with fantasy elements in the process.

Really, all the Cleric, Druid, Wizard buzz, when does it really come to bear? 15th level, 18th?

From my over 20 years of D&D experience almost noone plays to levels where "imbalance" of the rules (as opposed to imbalance of the perceived power of magic) is a factor.


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I don't see many things in Pathfinder that are objectively problematic, I more see differences in preference of play, and PF doesn't support certain styles of play as well as it supports others.


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Fleshgrinder wrote:
Pathfinder has no issues that can't be solved by an inventive GM and mature players.
Kthulhu wrote:
Tell that to F.A.T.A.L.

Contradiction in base parameters.


Zardnaar wrote:
Wildonion wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Yeah I would recommend Galaxy at War, Galaxy of Intrigue and the Scum And Villainy books in addiiton to the core books for best bang for buck purchases.
Starships of the Galaxy is also an excellent book, adding a number of useful ways to increase the fun of space combat and adding upgrade rules for gear. You will find more of that in Scum and Villainy too, so that is nice. Also, any of the era books if there is a particular time frame you want to play in.
Starshps of the Galaxy last I looked was pricey.

I jumped on board with SWSE when it came out, so I got most of the books for less than cover price, thankfully. Starships is a great book, and the Knights of the Old Republic book is an amazing resource full of era-specific info, even for SW fans not playing the game.

If you're patient, by the time the next iteration of the SW RPG comes along, the prices will drop. Every time a version of the game goes out of print, the prices sky-rocket until the next edition comes along. I've seen the SW Revised books in the $150+ range, then plummet to cover price as soon as SWSE was announced.


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Magic item crafting is objectively problematic.

IMO, of course. ^^


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magnuskn wrote:

Magic item crafting is objectively problematic.

IMO, of course. ^^

By being your opinion it instantly ceases to be objective :P


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Fleshgrinder wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Magic item crafting is objectively problematic.

IMO, of course. ^^

By being your opinion it instantly ceases to be objective :P

Well, d'oh. :p

But I think I can make a good case that it really is an objective problem area of the game.


I solve it easily enough.

If they can build magic easily, so can the opposition.

Sovereign Court

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Every game has mechanical issues. I've been playing RPGs since 1987, and every game that I've played or GM'ed had something in the game menchanics that was overpowered, underpowered, or just plain weird. We discussed the issue as a group, found a way to make it work, and moved on. "Do whatever takes to make the game fun." is my personal motto when it comes to gaming.


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Fleshgrinder wrote:

I solve it easily enough.

If they can build magic easily, so can the opposition.

That's very nice for homebrewn stuff, where Stormwind and Oberoni rule all day long, but if you want to balance RAW with APs and other published materials, you can either rework all of it or you could find a system solution, which spares you all the detail nitty-gritty.


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magnuskn wrote:
...But I think I can make a good case that it really is an objective problem area of the game.

Hum,

no single magic item breaks this game nor does any combination do it
there are only so many slots to fill
I can still very easily challenge my players that crafted the "optimal" items for them, all of them

So I completely fail to see the problem here.

*Edit*

magnuskn wrote:
That's very nice for homebrewn stuff...

Ahh, the problem is not the item creation rules but the notion that published adventures must be playable without any adjustments for n00b parties of first time players/GMs and seasoned min/maxing veterans equally.

Yeah, serious problem here.


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Dude, this kind of ad hominem stuff is not helpful at all to a debate.


magnuskn wrote:
Fleshgrinder wrote:

I solve it easily enough.

If they can build magic easily, so can the opposition.

That's very nice for homebrewn stuff, where Stormwind and Oberoni rule all day long, but if you want to balance RAW with APs and other published materials, you can either rework all of it or you could find a system solution, which spares you all the detail nitty-gritty.

I've never played published adventures or modules, so no experience whatsoever there.

I may have run the AD&D Dark Sun starter module once.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fleshgrinder wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Fleshgrinder wrote:

I solve it easily enough.

If they can build magic easily, so can the opposition.

That's very nice for homebrewn stuff, where Stormwind and Oberoni rule all day long, but if you want to balance RAW with APs and other published materials, you can either rework all of it or you could find a system solution, which spares you all the detail nitty-gritty.

I've never played published adventures or modules, so no experience whatsoever there.

I may have run the AD&D Dark Sun starter module once.

At this time I only play published material, since I don't have the time for homebrewn preparation anymore. So anything that forces me to invest large tracts of time to customize the pre-written adventure of course is a cause of concern to me.

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