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Quickrunner's Shirt Overpowered?


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

51 to 99 of 99 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Silver Crusade **

This thread was all about its usage in PFS play. Why on *earth* was it bumped out of that forum? Reflagged to put this thread back where it belongs: the PFS boards.

Silver Crusade **

Agreed that it should not be sold in PFS play. Also flagged the other thread to have it moved back here.

Taldor ***

Whoa, how did this thread get out of PFS General Discussion?

-Matt

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

bugleyman wrote:

Too good for the price. At the very lease should have 24-hour attunement, and probably should be at least 2.5k. As it stands, this is an auto-buy.

I won't speak to the Attunement issue, but based on hustle 2400/2500 is about right. ((power level 2 * Psion level 3 * 2000)/5)


i was wondering where the hell that thread went.

Anyone else notice a LOT of PFS only threads get moved away?

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am against its use in PFS. I believe it will upset action economy and become a "must have" item for nearly every character. But this is not my decision and perhaps there will be other hot-button items from UE that will require more urgent notice.

Paizo Employee Paizo Glitterati Robot

Moved thread and merged the two together.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean H wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
TetsujinOni wrote:
PCs on the other hand will gain the ability to swift action open doors and then full attack with their archer, between one and many times per day.
Except the Shirt doesn't let you do that.
It doesn't? The shirt gives you an extra move action per day, correct? It's a move action to open a door... then a full-round action to shoot... Yeah, I see that working.

It explicitly says a move action to move... so no move-equivalent actions

Sean H wrote:


Though, perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here, but doesn't the Shirt take up a Body slot? As in, you can't wear armor when using it? That cuts down a lot of abuse right there(though Mirror Image Magus can still get his full use out of it).

Body Slot is separate from Armor slot... the PRD states this

Silver Crusade **

Chris Lambertz wrote:
Moved thread and merged the two together.

Thank ya much!

Qadira *

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think the best solution, if this item is truly a problem, is to include a caveat that you can only gain the benefit of this item once per day no matter how many different copies of the item you wear in that day.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
graywulfe wrote:
I think the best solution, if this item is truly a problem, is to include a caveat that you can only gain the benefit of this item once per day no matter how many different copies of the item you wear in that day.

That would solve the problem I think. Doing this once a day is pretty cool. Doing this once for every thousand gold you spend is pretty overpowered.

Sczarni **

Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mergy wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
I think the best solution, if this item is truly a problem, is to include a caveat that you can only gain the benefit of this item once per day no matter how many different copies of the item you wear in that day.
That would solve the problem I think. Doing this once a day is pretty cool. Doing this once for every thousand gold you spend is pretty overpowered.

After reading what this item can do, my immediate thought was that I'd be buying one of these for each and every one of my characters that doesn't already have a chest-slot item.

That being said, it's probably best that if it is allowed (which I don't think it should be as is), it needs to have limitations set. Give the item a 24 hour attunement in PFS play, or up the price in PFS. Something needs to be done so that it isn't horrendously over-abused.

Of course, now I'm imagining an army of enemy rogues using these things against a party and the ultimate murder that follows.

Taldor

Well I'm going to try and hit this belt of battle thing in the side with a crowbar hopefully.

There are two key things to remember, if I remember them correctly. First, and this is the most important thing as was stated by Jiggy and someone else on another thread, The Belt of Battle gave standard actions. Secondly, it was a belt, something that was allowed to be easy to put on and take off during combat for some reason in a lot of groups that allowed this item.

So now we've got a shirt which grants a move action. I'd agree that 1000 gold is a bit on the cheap side for that, however it also appears to be an extremely nice item for the non-spell casters which is where a lot of complaining from previous editions was (not here though, here it's like all monks). Move actions don't allow for additional spell casting, other then a few odd effects, so it's not something that can be abused beyond drawing out a scroll or wand.

The other thing is just the simple fact that it's a damn shirt. Chest slot item. Not something that is going to be easy to get off in combat and replaced like a lot of people played belts to be. A normal adventurer would have to shed layers to get one on and off during a regular adventuring day.

So I can accept people not liking it or thinking it's too good for living campaign play, but don't try to compare it to that ridiculous belt. It's not even in the same league as that thing even though it seems to have similar mechanics.

Qadira *

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think I have a different picture of what the quickrunner shirt does than most.

This item gives an additional move action. If you full attack, you don't have a move action and therefore you can't gain an additional one. I see this as giving you either 2 move and 1 standard or 1 full-round action.

Also, from the description of full-attack "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step." This item doesn't override that rule. So even if it was legal, you couldn't use the move action for actual movement, only for something equivalent to a move.

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@brock - but it's actually not a move-action. It's a swift action; "Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn." You are allowed to take swift actions during a full attack - also if they make you move (like f.ex. a quickened Dimension Door).

I do think this item should be "attuned" or whatever. 1/day is pretty cool. But it's probably way too cheap and too good. My eyes kinda glazed over when I read it, and I immedeately thought of getting one for all my characters. The action-economy is indeed one of the most important things in the game.

At the level we play at right now in PFS (all chars are lvl 10-11), the boss encounters are pretty much one-round affairs - especially if our two optimized monk chars are there (charge through difficult terrain and with a range of 160 feet). Giving everyone this shirt will only make that problem worse.

**** Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia

Morgen wrote:

Well I'm going to try and hit this belt of battle thing in the side with a crowbar hopefully.

There are two key things to remember, if I remember them correctly. First, and this is the most important thing as was stated by Jiggy and someone else on another thread, The Belt of Battle gave standard actions. Secondly, it was a belt, something that was allowed to be easy to put on and take off during combat for some reason in a lot of groups that allowed this item.

The Belt of Battle could for 1 charge grant move actions, 2 charges for a standard, and 3 charges for a full round. So it didn't just give standard actions. It also gave a +2 to Init. All for 12,000gp and a waist slot.

So it didn't just give standard actions. And being a waist slot item was worst in 3.5 because it was one of the common slots to add ability enhancements to.

The Quickrunner shirt is in a less used slot, but far less powerful than the belt of battle. But 1,000gp is way too cheap with the ability to buy multiple copies.

Qadira *

Derwalt wrote:
@brock - but it's actually not a move-action. It's a swift action; "Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn." You are allowed to take swift actions during a full attack - also if they make you move (like f.ex. a quickened Dimension Door).

Well explained - I was mistaken.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

16 people marked this as a favorite.

After hearing all the comments, as well as private discussion on the VC message board, I agree that this item is probably not the best choice for PFS and so I am adding it to the list of items not legal.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

Michael: Thank you very much.

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In a way I'm quite sad to hear it :) But I think that's most likely for the Best!

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thanks Mike!


Really good call

**

Michael Brock wrote:
After hearing all the comments, as well as private discussion on the VC message board, I agree that this item is probably not the best choice for PFS and so I am adding it to the list of items not legal.

Thank you sir!

*

Great call Mike.

These shirts (5 of them) were a "must have" for each and every PC. It just would have been ridiculous and very game changing.

*

Whew. Dodged a bullet, er- shirt, there.

*

Oh! I know! Druids don't want them. They can't activate them in Wild Shape and 1000 gp isn't chump change at level 3. So there are PCs who wouldn't buy a bunch of them!

Great call on excluding this item.

Shadow Lodge *** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

Michael Brock wrote:
After hearing all the comments, as well as private discussion on the VC message board, I agree that this item is probably not the best choice for PFS and so I am adding it to the list of items not legal.

While I agree that there are problems with the shirt, I don't think that this is the right answer (or, at least, not the whole answer).

Most of the other items that are not legal for use in a PFS setting are flagged as such because they don't fit into the game setting framework (advanced firearms, items only usable by evil characters, etc.) That isn't the case here - this is simply an unintended problem with the item itself.

I realise that any solution beyond PFS requires a lot more than a simple ruling from Mike. And until any erratum is published, this ruling is a good idea - it prevents future complaints when an existing item is changed (or, as some would claim, nerfed). But if this problem is seen as too unbalancing for PFS, I'd hope that is worth fixing for Pathfinder as a whole.

FWIW, I'd agree with those who suggest a 24-hour attunement period. That would eliminate all the shenanigans of characters having multiple shirts, a party passing one shirt around between multiple characters, and no doubt other even more creative things I haven't thought of.

Qadira *

1 person marked this as a favorite.
JohnF wrote:


FWIW, I'd agree with those who suggest a 24-hour attunement period. That would eliminate all the shenanigans of characters having multiple shirts, a party passing one shirt around between multiple characters, and no doubt other even more creative things I haven't thought of.

Make it clear in the description that the shirt can only create the effect once per day, regardless of wearer. Anyone who attempts to benefit from a quickrunner shirt more than once per day is instead fatigued.

*

I'd have a problem with even a "fixed" version that required attunement. Even one use a day makes this an auto-buy for (almost!) everyone, especially since the chest slot is so rarely occupied. We don't need more "necessary" buys.

(I also dislike Cloak of Resistance et al. but at least those are built into the game's DC scaling already.)

Silver Crusade **

Excellent call! Thanks boss!

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Thorkull

@JohnF: The shirt isn't a problem in a home game since the GM can just step up and nix additional shirts by just not making them available.

I'm spitballing here, but it might be possible to drop one of these shirts on a Chronicle with a limit of 1, so players can get access without having to worry about the multiple uses per day abuses that everyone's concerned with.

I'm not saying that's going to happen -- I have no say in scenario development and planning -- but it's one way to put it back into the campaign in a controlled fashion. It would also be a way to add value to Chronicle rewards.

Taldor ***

Thank you dearly, Mr. Brock, for this decision! You've made my day! I had already whined to my VC about the horrors of GMing for the Pounce Police, so waking up to not having to worry was just a great start to my day! You have saved me a lot of headaches!

-Matt

*****

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:
After hearing all the comments, as well as private discussion on the VC message board, I agree that this item is probably not the best choice for PFS and so I am adding it to the list of items not legal.

Wow. Guys remember that Mike managed to read our concerns, look them over, and make his decision, all while he's setting things up for an amazing time at PFS's biggest Gencon ever (by a wide margin). The man is an action hero!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Compared to the chaos of GenCon, I'm sure that we appear to be positively sane.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
The man is an action hero!

*pictures Mike jumping through a shattering window with a machine gun in his hands*

Silver Crusade **

Jiggy wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
The man is an action hero!
*pictures Mike jumping through a shattering window with a machine gun in his hands*

Obviously you weren't at Kublacon....then you would remember it ;)

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, South Dakota—Rapid City aka Black Powder Chocobo

I don't see Mr. Brock asking us to get to the choppa and to get down, though.

Osirion ****

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Wow. Guys remember that Mike managed to read our concerns, look them over, and make his decision, all while he's setting things up for an amazing time at PFS's biggest Gencon ever (by a wide margin). The man is an action hero!

Do we need a Mike Brock action figure with posable limbs carrying the Glaive of PFS Law?

Sczarni **

Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alex Greenshields wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Wow. Guys remember that Mike managed to read our concerns, look them over, and make his decision, all while he's setting things up for an amazing time at PFS's biggest Gencon ever (by a wide margin). The man is an action hero!
Do we need a Mike Brock action figure with posable limbs carrying the Glaive of PFS Law?

All while bursting through a wall with an explosition as he's fighting off the the gnashing masses that disagree with those laws.

Grand Lodge *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
JohnF wrote:
FWIW, I'd agree with those who suggest a 24-hour attunement period. That would eliminate all the shenanigans of characters having multiple shirts, a party passing one shirt around between multiple characters, and no doubt other even more creative things I haven't thought of.

The problem is that Mike can't change the game rules for PFS. He can ban this item and I think that it is safe to say that the game developers are well aware that he has done so. Will the item get errated to retire an attunement period? I hope so. We have one local PFS player who has a handy haversack full of the ranger boots of friendly terrain and frequently stops the party so he can change boots.

Cheliax ***

sieylianna wrote:
JohnF wrote:
FWIW, I'd agree with those who suggest a 24-hour attunement period. That would eliminate all the shenanigans of characters having multiple shirts, a party passing one shirt around between multiple characters, and no doubt other even more creative things I haven't thought of.
The problem is that Mike can't change the game rules for PFS. He can ban this item and I think that it is safe to say that the game developers are well aware that he has done so. Will the item get errated to retire an attunement period? I hope so. We have one local PFS player who has a handy haversack full of the ranger boots of friendly terrain and frequently stops the party so he can change boots.

HEY!! I only change my boots 3-4 times a game. I have to color coordinate with the room. Not my fault I have a better fashion sense then the rest of you plebs. :P

Anyway, back on topic. I like the shirt but it is WAAAAYYYY to powerful as it is for the current crop of PFS scenarios out there. It would make the Ranger & Magus builds I have even more obnoxiously sickening.

However, if the season 4 mods I've seen so far are any indication of where the difficulty curve are heading we may be in need of this kind of power boost.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Orrr the mods could be toned down so PFS doesn't get sucked into the power race that other organized play games have been victim to.

Cheliax ***

You cant really tone down the mods as even an under optimised party with good synergy can clear PFS mods fairly easily. You can choose not to upscale the mods, but downpowering them is almost impossible and still have a challenge for any table lucky enough to have a balanced party.

Qadira ** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

We'll see. The new layout means playing up will be less frequent so that should mitigate the increased challenge. If you have 6 level 9 characters, you should think twice about playing subtier 10-11 in Storval Stairs*; playing up with a marginal group should be a tough call.

*:
I must admit to a little guilty pleasure hearing the TPK stories later so hey go for it!

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

For all that I have a PC-killing reputation locally, I'm also a stickler for letting the players catch the breaks that are written in. So, I've got lots of close call near TPKs that at least a few PCs generally walk away from...

But, I'm sure there's going to be walk away from on Storval Stairs. Even on tier 10-11...

Unless, of course, the players are allergic to optimization and don't know how to cooperate. Then their characters are going to have one last view of stunningly red Varisia...

*

Cheapy wrote:
Orrr the mods could be toned down so PFS doesn't get sucked into the power race that other organized play games have been victim to.

Yep. Side-grades usually tend to be better than upgrades. If anyone needs a better illustration, I'll just leave this here...

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thank you for that link Sean H! :)

**

Thanks for being such a proactive PFS Coordinator!

Andoran

Not to be a newb or some such but uh, do the rules not say an additional move action?

"Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn."

I took this as if you had to take a move action first before using this. If this is true, then please explain how this item is OP? I really don't get it... even my dismounted, full plate-wearing paladin can reach the BBEG on the first turn.

Shadow Lodge ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Tales Subscriber

@Gonn - Because with this shirt, your full plate wearing paladin can reach the BBEG and full-attack on the first round of combat.

Barbarians need to reach level 10 before they get a rage power that can do that (with two pre-reqs)

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