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Reskin ruling?


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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**

Not to reopen an old would, but has there been an official ruling on reskin rules in PFS?

Primarily, I want to know if the following are ok, provided the DM is informed ahead of time:

Cleaver (as a handaxe)
Two handed miner's pick (as a scythe)
Oversized khopesh (as a katana and readily identified as such)

I also have had a player who wanted to have animal parts for asthetic purposes( fox ears, tail) but did not have acess to the boon for kitsune. I allowed for them to take Racial Heritage (Kitsune) to achieve this effect, as by raw the feat is available to humans.

I have a barbarian (Ben Dan) who has ogre-oni blood in his heritage that I used Racial heritage (Half-Orc) to simulate.

Are these reskins premissable, or are they a no-go?

Andoran *****

FAQ wrote:

Can I re-skin or re-flavor an animal companion or item?

You may choose a specific type of animal companion from any of the base forms listed on pages 53–54 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook or a legal Additional Resource but may not use stats for one base form with the flavor of another type of animal. Thus, a small cat could be a cheetah or leopard, as suggested, as well as a lynx, bobcat, puma, or other similar animal; it could not, however, be "re-skinned" to be a giant hairless swamp rat or a differently-statted wolf. If a GM feels that a re-skinning is inappropriate or could have mechanical implications in the specific adventure being played, he may require that the creature simply be considered its generic base form for the duration of the adventure. A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules, and any item a character uses for which there are no stats is considered an improvised weapon (see page 144 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook)

I highlighted the necessary ruling for the items. I believe that Adventurer’s Armory has a khopesh and a cleaver (and Ultimate Equipment might as well). I believe that one of the books has a sidebar that lists weapon types and what to use if you want to use that weapon type. I don’t know if this includes the Khopesh or not, but I’m sure that would not be katana, but rather scimitar.

As for the race thing and look. The answer would be no.
.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Firstly

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:


Cleaver (as a handaxe) -- I'd have no problem with this. The words "cleaver" and "handaxe" are fairly interchangable.
Two handed miner's pick (as a scythe) -- no, why not use a heavy pick?
Oversized khopesh (as a katana and readily identified as such) -- no, why not use a katana?

But this is troubling

Quote:
I also have had a player who wanted to have animal parts for asthetic purposes( fox ears, tail) but did not have acess to the boon for kitsune. I allowed for them to take Racial Heritage (Kitsune) to achieve this effect, as by raw the feat is available to humans.

If this is for PFS, you don't get to decide what feats people can and cannot take. For PFS, Racial Heritage is legal, so no problems there. As for visual representations of that PCs heritage ... fuzzy. The feat says nothing except their blood flows in your veins, so probably my ruling would fall on not allowing the ears, tail, etc with only the Racial Heritage feat.

This part confuses me as well

Quote:
I have a barbarian (Ben Dan) who has ogre-oni blood in his heritage that I used Racial heritage (Half-Orc) to simulate.

Why not have Racial Heritage (ogre) instead?

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Andrew Christian wrote:

I believe that Adventurer’s Armory has a khopesh and a cleaver (and Ultimate Equipment might as well).

Cleaver isn't in UE (according to PDF search feature). Don't have a copy of AA so I couldn't tell you there.

Cheliax ***** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

I think you're good on the cleaver but there are already stats for the heavy pick and katana so you wouldn't be able to reskin into those items. In terms of the animal parts, that would be a negative.

**

I'm sorry, you misunderstand me. Allow me to clarify.

The katana is a katana, uses all stats for one and is readily identified as one. I say so when describing my character. It is merely curved as such to superficially bare resemblance to a khopesh (as he is Osirioni).

The heavy pick is a one handed weapon, not two handed. A scythe is the natural progression into two handed (x4 crit), and otherwise there is no two-handed non-polearm peircing weapon that comes to mind. I desire to say "it is a twohanded pick. It is readily identified as behaving more like a scythe than anything else, and functions as a scythe"

The kitsune blooded character: I misspoke. I should have said I suggested. As of now, she has taken Magic Tail (kitsune feat, acessable via racial heritage) so the tail is entirely legit.

As to Ben Dan: There are no ogre feats, and the various half-orc feats (deathless initiate and the like) make sense for the backstory/build. I've supplimented the backstory with rage owers from the fiend totem.

**

It merely seems odd to me that a play who wants something as innocent as cat ears has no viable route to obtain them, but a four-armed, two headed, bat winged alchemist is compleately fine. In fact, noone even seems to bat an eye as to his appearence.

There's also the issue of things like half-elves and human ethnicities. A half-tien or half-mwangi is nothing special, but it is, in essence, a reskinning of the standard half-elf.

Andoran *****

Advanced Players Guide (APG) has stats for a Khopesh
Ultimate Combat (UC) has stats for a Katana

So you would need to own the APG to use a Khopesh or the UC to use a Katana, in either hardback, watermarked digital, or printed & watermarked copy.

The FAQ specifically states you cannot reskin an item to something for which there are no rules. So I would expect table variance on the Cleaver.

I know that Ryan Bolduan had an alchemist with a cleaver, but I don’t recall what stats he was using.

**

Andrew Christian wrote:

Advanced Players Guide (APG) has stats for a Khopesh

Ultimate Combat (UC) has stats for a Katana

So you would need to own the APG to use a Khopesh or the UC to use a Katana, in either hardback, watermarked digital, or printed & watermarked copy.

This is exactlly what I have done. I have UC. It is readily identified as a katana. It uses katana stats. It only superficially resembles a khopesh in that it's shape is abnormal for a katana, bearing resemblance to a khopesh.

Andrew Christian wrote:

The FAQ specifically states you cannot reskin an item to something for which there are no rules. So I would expect table variance on the Cleaver.

Hmm. A ruling I'm not too fond of, but I understand.

It's just I know that there are cleavers (as handaxes), scalples (as daggers), and the like throughout PFS, including in the scenerios themselves. I had held out hope for a two-handed pick, but alas there was none.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
There's also the issue of things like half-elves and human ethnicities. A half-tien or half-mwangi is nothing special, but it is, in essence, a reskinning of the standard half-elf.

Don't quite understand this...

As for the weapons -- sorry, I interpreted your postings backwards.
Heavy pick is a one handed but you can hold (and wield for extra damage) it in two hands. Again, why do you want it to be a scythe?

Same goes for the khopesh (just get one of those and use it). Why does it need to be a katana?

I like that she has the magic tail, I do. But you can't reskin her to have fox ears. You could have her do her hair up to resemble "ears" or have her say things like "they'll come in soon, I really hope so!" But she can't have them unless she gets something that gives them to her (2 levels in a shaman druid for example).

As for the barbarian, I understand the conundrum. I faced a similar issue with my tiefling barbarian's heritage. Luckily, I took a level of sorcerer and did crossblooded draconic/abyssal to represent what I was RPing. You can take the half-orc racial to get the feats -- that's a good mechanical advantage. You can't realistically claim oni or ogre heritage based solely on that though.

When it boils down to it, sometimes flavor comes at the cost of potency.

Heck, yesterday a PC died from flavor at my table. He was dropped to -13 (con of 14), and no one could heal him before his turn. Rolled to stabilize and died. He was 1 HP short because at level 1 he dipped a level in paladin and then lost his powers. He wanted to RP a fallen paladin character, and the flavor actually cost him his life (and 5.4k gold...)

These are the hard decisions we all face.

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
This is exactlly what I have done. I have UC. It is readily identified as a katana. It uses katana stats. It only superficially resembles a khopesh in that it's shape is abnormal for a katana, bearing resemblance to a khopesh.

The issue is, as you've already seen here, the moment you bring the word "khopesh" into the discussion, you'll raise some hackles.

A katana (even one that's more curved than normal) is a katana, and a khopesh is a khopesh. They each have their own separate (and non-identical) stats, and even if your sole intent is to keep your character's weapon "in flavor" for Osirion, there are those who will get suspicious that you're trying to gain some advantage somewhere. Best to just deal with the fact that it's a katana, and leave it at that.

**

Now, as to appearance.

Players have the ability to customize dang near every aspect of their character's appearance.
Eye color-be it standard, white-out, blood red, or glowing.
Hair color-normal or anime-esque, we've seen them all
skin color- from albinos to melonics, and everywhere in between
height
weight
body type
and more.

Why wouldn't a character be able to posess animalistic attributes, ones that have no effect on gameplay other than appearance?

The character is still human. They just have kitsune blood. This is represented mechanically by the feat and descriptively by a tail. Where's the harm?

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Why wouldn't a character be able to posess animalistic attributes, ones that have no effect on gameplay other than appearance?

The character is still human. They just have kitsune blood. This is represented mechanically by the feat and descriptively by a tail. Where's the harm?

This discussion has happened before, again and again. And it isn't very pretty. It's what I would refer to at work as a "no" topic.

Abortion, religion, gun laws -- these are "no" topics at work for me, because everyone has a strong opinion and work isn't the place for it.

I won't comment on whether or not reskinning rules are "fair" or not. Don't misunderstand my intentions as being rude here, I just don't want to be involved in a 600 post thread.

Regarding your original question: "Are these reskins premissable, or are they a no-go?"

I think we've covered it fairly well.

Qadira *** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Thorkull

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
Where's the harm?

EDIT: What Walter said. We've been over this discussion, heavily, following the Great Pig Incident of GenCon 2011. I suggest a messageboard search for "pig" and "reskin."

Andoran *****

I believe that you cannot take the ARG racial feats from races that require boons, unless you either have access to that Race through a boon, or that race’s feats/traits/etc. through boons.

Additional Resources: Advanced Races Guide wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).

As for the Khopesh, no. If you want a Khopesh, use the APG Khopesh stats. You can’t make your katana look like a Khopesh because you like the Katana’s stats better.

In previous iterations of DnD, before a Khopesh was introduced (in 1st Edition I believe it was Unearthed Arcana, 2nd edition lumped it and the tulwar together with this other weapon, and some of the splat books in 3.0 and 3.5 I believe did as well) it was always considered a scimitar. So reskinning a Katana into a Khopesh does not make sense from a game system precedent. Katana’s (until Oriental Adventures stat’d the Katana) were always considered Asian Bastard Swords.

Cheliax ***** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Unfortunately, the fox tail is out as well per additional resources:

Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).

**

Walter Sheppard wrote:


I like that she has the magic tail, I do. But you can't reskin her to have fox ears. You could have her do her hair up to resemble "ears" or have her say things like "they'll come in soon, I really hope so!" But she can't have them unless she gets something that gives them to her (2 levels in a shaman druid for example).

Now the big question: Why not? I initially thought like you did, but then came to realize that there is NO effect of having fox ears. Other than to make my player happy. We let all sorts of freaks into the Society, fox ears are mild compared to some of the stuff out there.

Walter Sheppard wrote:
As for the barbarian, I understand the conundrum. I faced a similar issue with my tiefling barbarian's heritage. Luckily, I took a level of sorcerer and did crossblooded draconic/abyssal to represent what I was RPing. You can take the half-orc racial to get the feats -- that's a good mechanical advantage. You can't realistically claim oni or ogre heritage based solely on that though.

I actually played this character last year at Dragon*Con, at a table with Michael Brock at least once. His oni heritage is mild (this was prior any Pathfinder Oni appearance other than Ogre-Oni Mage), and manifests only in physical stature...and lack of mental facilities. half orc was the best representation of this brute strength version of oni. Later, I progressed up the fiend Totem tree, having his heritage show when in fits of rage (horns, spikes, the whole demonic gambit).

He is human. He is also half-orc. He suffers all penalties and gains all boons relative to being both races.

Mike wrote:

The issue is, as you've already seen here, the moment you bring the word "khopesh" into the discussion, you'll raise some hackles.

A katana (even one that's more curved than normal) is a katana, and a khopesh is a khopesh. They each have their own separate (and non-identical) stats, and even if your sole intent is to keep your character's weapon "in flavor" for Osirion, there are those who will get suspicious that you're trying to gain some advantage somewhere. Best to just deal with the fact that it's a katana, and leave it at that.

The issue here is this; do we police the populace and become jerks, or do we allow flavor?

Example. A longsword and a shortsword have distinct stats, but physically are just defined by length. Do we police player's descriptions based on how long the describe their sword as being? Where is the cut off?
Do we say that no axe can be of obviously dwarven design without being a dwarven waraxe?
If my katana is readily identifyable as a katana, acts solely as a katana, and uses stats solely as a katana, where is the harm in wheither it looks more like a traditional katana or a khopesh, wheither it's red or blue, or if the length is greater or lesser than that of standard?

Andoran *****

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:


A katana (even one that's more curved than normal) is a katana, and a khopesh is a khopesh. They each have their own separate (and non-identical) stats, and even if your sole intent is to keep your character's weapon "in

Because there are distinct stats for a Khopesh in the Advanced Players Guide.

Just the same as you couldn’t call a long sword a short sword.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

I believe you could still *claim* oni heritage as part of your character's background, so long as nothing was changed mechanically or visually. For example, it may be a source of pride in a certain orc tribe that oni-blood flows through their veins, causing them to worship and revere Oni - even though no shaman has ever manifested oni features, they may still wear false horns and paint their skin to appear oni-like... it becomes a story-line feature, not a mechanic of the rules.

If you are wanting a large pick, and Heavy Pick doesn't cut it, why not do a Large Heavy Pick (up damage one size category, take -2 on attacks for using the wrong size, and the weapon becomes two-handed)?

I too have seen cleavers & scalpels used in PFS scenarios... but the authors are allowed to break the rules and we are not. Personally, I would have no problem with it at my table, but some GMs would. When you are describing that character at the start of each game, describe the cleaver and then tell the GM that it is mechanically a hand-axe since Paizo has yet to publish a cleaver; let the GM know that if they have a problem with the reskin, that you will gladly un-reskin it during that scenario and call it a hand-axe.

**

Todd Morgan wrote:

Unfortunately, the fox tail is out as well per additional resources:

Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).

Racial heritage:

The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.

Prerequisite: Human.

Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.

So we end up in a paradox?

**

Andrew Christian wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:


A katana (even one that's more curved than normal) is a katana, and a khopesh is a khopesh. They each have their own separate (and non-identical) stats, and even if your sole intent is to keep your character's weapon "in

Because there are distinct stats for a Khopesh in the Advanced Players Guide.

Just the same as you couldn’t call a long sword a short sword.

But where's the cut off, description wise? How long can the blade be before it jumps classes?

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

And yes, a katana is a katana and a kopesh is a kopesh - you either accept the differences in stats or you accept that your Osirion character is using a Tien weapon

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

It merely seems odd to me that a play who wants something as innocent as cat ears has no viable route to obtain them, but a four-armed, two headed, bat winged alchemist is compleately fine. In fact, noone even seems to bat an eye as to his appearence.

That's because there are rules in the class for doing things to your body.

However "reskinning" is more about using MMO style cosmetics without rules.

**

And thank you for the official answers on the cleaver/ mining pick issues.

The other issues are still... debatable?

Again, I don't mean to be problematic, I simply want to understand what AND why.

Cheliax ***** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

There has to be a line drawn somewhere and the campaign staff has erred on the side of caution in this case. Re-skinning is a very sensitive subject which is why the strict rules are in place so that everyone is on the same page.

**

Todd Morgan wrote:
There has to be a line drawn somewhere and the campaign staff has erred on the side of caution in this case. Re-skinning is a very sensitive subject which is why the strict rules are in place so that everyone is on the same page.

To sum it up:

I understand this ruling in the case of weapons as others (cleavers/axes) and animals as others (pig/dogs).

But what of description? To put it, not truely reskinning, but description of an item or appearence? This is the issue I'm seeing with my Khopesh-like katana.

Where is the line?

Andoran *****

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:


A katana (even one that's more curved than normal) is a katana, and a khopesh is a khopesh. They each have their own separate (and non-identical) stats, and even if your sole intent is to keep your character's weapon "in

Because there are distinct stats for a Khopesh in the Advanced Players Guide.

Just the same as you couldn’t call a long sword a short sword.

But where's the cut off, description wise? How long can the blade be before it jumps classes?

<blink> I don’t understand the question.

A khopesh is a khopesh.
A Katana is a Katana.

You can’t say your Katana is a Khopesh, because it isn’t. It’s a Katana.

Cheliax ***** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:
There has to be a line drawn somewhere and the campaign staff has erred on the side of caution in this case. Re-skinning is a very sensitive subject which is why the strict rules are in place so that everyone is on the same page.

To sum it up:

I understand this ruling in the case of weapons as others (cleavers/axes) and animals as others (pig/dogs).

But what of description? To put it, not truely reskinning, but description of an item or appearence? This is the issue I'm seeing with my Khopesh-like katana.

Where is the line?

Changing the description of something is re-skinning.

Andoran *****

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:
There has to be a line drawn somewhere and the campaign staff has erred on the side of caution in this case. Re-skinning is a very sensitive subject which is why the strict rules are in place so that everyone is on the same page.

To sum it up:

I understand this ruling in the case of weapons as others (cleavers/axes) and animals as others (pig/dogs).

But what of description? To put it, not truely reskinning, but description of an item or appearence? This is the issue I'm seeing with my Khopesh-like katana.

Where is the line?

Flavor text—

My elf has violet eyes and my gnome has green hair.
My druid’s pteranodon companion has mottled skin coloring with a bright red crest.
My sword has a blue sheen to it because some azure crystals were used in the smelting and smithing process.

Reskinning—
My katana is a khopesh
My human has dog ears
My druid’s cheetah (small cat) companion is really an elven hound

Flavor Text is ok
Reskinning is not

That’s the line.

You want a Khopesh looking sword, use a khopesh.

Qadira *** Venture-Lieutenant, Washington D.C. aka Grolick

I feel like sharing a funny roleplaying story here. It doesn't really apply, but maybe slightly.

When I played ROTR, we had a dwarven cleric of Torag. He had no knowledge nature, and would sometimes use Summon Monster. He started summoning some kind of dinosaur that is large and is on the list. He called it a whale. It wasn't re-skinned or anything. He had no knowledge nature, so he didn't know what it was, specifically. Only the one person in the party with knowledge nature knew and never told him otherwise. We had a lot of OOC laughs about our "whale"

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
You can’t say your Katana is a Khopesh, because it isn’t. It’s a Katana.

To build on this, the two weapons *do* have different statistics.

Yes, some of the core stats for the weapons are the same (one-handed exotic melee, 1d8 slashing damage), but they have different critical ranges (khopesh is 19-20/x2, katana is 18-20/x2), different weights (the khopesh weighs 8 pounds, the katana weighs 6 pounds) and different secondary properties (the khopesh is a trip weapon, the katana is deadly). It's not just "flavor" in the shape of the blade; they are different weapons.


Actually there was a thread not to long ago where racial heritage was talked about when it comes to Treesinger archtype for druid and weather or not a human with RH elf could take it.

Mike Brock ended up ruling that PFS is more restrictive then PFRPG in general and that NO racial heritage would not allow it.

if you want to find it try searching this fourm for the latest about a human treesinger, ill try to find it too.

Sadly the short anwser to the fox thing is "No"

*

Changing the description is reskinning, and reskinning is changing the description. Description, like skin, is what's on the outside.

That said, I think you're fine getting fox ears from Racial Heritage. It apparently can give you physical traits of the heritage race because this person suddenly has a tail. The fact that the player has spent a feat to become kitsune-like is what makes it not reskinning.

The suggestion that the player take 2 levels of druid shaman really bugs me, since getting fox traits from Wolf Shaman would be reskinning. Even saying you have physical wolf traits would be exactly the same as the kitsune issue -- having "an aspect" is even more vague than having "blood in your veins".


Never mind here we go.

Mike Brock wrote:

For Treesinger, no you can not take it as a human. Jason's ruling is for the overall Pathfinder rules. For PFS, we are more narrowly defining the rule.

As to the question a couple of posts up, no the Scarred Witchdoctor archetype is not available and a human can not qualify for any Orc related items, whether they be archetypes, feats, etc.... For this to ever be trumped, they would need to appear on a Chronicle.

Read all about it Here

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson aka Sir_Wulf

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

I understand this ruling in the case of weapons as others (cleavers/axes) and animals as others (pig/dogs).

But what of description? To put it, not truely reskinning, but description of an item or appearence? This is the issue I'm seeing with my Khopesh-like katana.

The campaign has been very cautious with reskinning in the past. This attitude was adopted to avoid confusion about what's allowed and out of concern that players would find a way to twist permitted changes to somehow take personal advantage ("My character is ACTUALLY an albino half-orc, but he LOOKS like a half-elf! Bwahahaha!").

If you sat at my table, I would certainly allow your kitsune-blooded chatracter his foxy ears. Such ears seem reasonable for someone who is "Kitsune-Blooded", and such changes fall into permissable artistic freedom when describing one's character.

Calling a katana a khopesh is more problematic. The game has stats for each weapon, along with specialized feats tailored for those using them.

Drawing from history, odd swords aren't uncommon. Collections in the Middle-East hold western-style blades with arabic-style hilts, a European collection holds blades forged in India with Russian furniture, and at least one 16th-Century Scottish noble owned a katana. I would advise you to describe your weapon as an "odd sword with a curved blade and Osirioni heiroglyphs on its hilt". Explain to the GM that its an Osirioni attempt to craft a katana-style blade.

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James MacKenzie wrote:
and at least one 16th-Century Scottish noble owned a katana.

Connor MacLeod, is that you? ;-)

**

But that's just it. The shape of the katana is just flavor. Fluff text.

It is a katana. My osirion uses a tien weapon. I accept that. But it is curve slightly in the middle. Glancing at it brings to mind the osirioni khopesh.

To put it another way:

I (katana) have been told that I look like Johnny Depp (khopesh). I am not Johnny Depp. I do no have his looks, his charm, his money, or his talent. I will never claim to be Johnny Depp. I am me. However. At a glance, in the right light, I look like Johnny Depp. Some of my features are similar enough to his that looking at me reminds people of him. That's all.

*

Ah, now here is the relevant post. Taking Magic Tail is illegal, but don't see any reason why Racial Heritage can't include physical traits anyway.

Anyway an easier way for a character to be foxy is to be an Aasimar descended from a vulpinal. Probably a little late for your player, though.

**

Thefurmonger wrote:

Never mind here we go.

Mike Brock wrote:

For Treesinger, no you can not take it as a human. Jason's ruling is for the overall Pathfinder rules. For PFS, we are more narrowly defining the rule.

As to the question a couple of posts up, no the Scarred Witchdoctor archetype is not available and a human can not qualify for any Orc related items, whether they be archetypes, feats, etc.... For this to ever be trumped, they would need to appear on a Chronicle.

Read all about it Here

Thank you. I will have the character readjust that.

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
It is a katana. My osirion uses a tien weapon. I accept that. But it is curve slightly in the middle. Glancing at it brings to mind the osirioni khopesh.

Then, please, don't call it a khopesh, or even "khopesh-like". Just call it a katana with an unusual, Osiriani-style curve to the blade.

Cheliax ***** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

But that's just it. The shape of the katana is just flavor. Fluff text.

It is a katana. My osirion uses a tien weapon. I accept that. But it is curve slightly in the middle. Glancing at it brings to mind the osirioni khopesh.

To put it another way:

I (katana) have been told that I look like Johnny Depp (khopesh). I am not Johnny Depp. I do no have his looks, his charm, his money, or his talent...

Yes you do look like Johnny Depp, you just said you did. And you may not have his talent or his charm, but by using your looks you could get away with a lot by impersonating him in a bad way.

Same way with re-skinning. Your X may have the flavor of Y, but because of that flavor, there IS the potential for abuse.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson aka Sir_Wulf

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"This, gentleman, is my proudest possession: A khopesh crafted in the forges of Pharoah Katenkenin!"

"Hmmm. Looks like a katana to me."

"No, it is a KHOPESH. Look at these heiroglyphics on the hilt."

"Are you sure that writing isn't Tian? I think I can make out a few words, 'Made in Taiw...'"

"Ill-mannered fool! May the dung of a thousand vultures drop into your wineglass! Those characters are Ancient Osirioni heiroglyphs! They call upon the blessed spirits of the Dawn to watch over the sword's bearer!"

"But.... it still looks like a katana to me."

Andoran *****

Let me ask you a question Twitchopolis:

In the real world, if you went to Jeep and said, I would like to buy a Wrangler, but could you make it look a little more like a Land Rover?

To make this analogy more germaine:

If you were at a renaissance festival and went to the weapon smith to craft you a sword, and you went to the guy who makes medieval style swords, he most likely could not make you a khopesh or katana. Because he doesn’t work with Damascus steel or the folding technique used to make katanas. So you’d have to search for the guy who makes one or the other. And if you asked the Katana maker “Could you make me a Katana, but make it look more like a khopesh?” he’d probably refer you to the khopesh maker to make you a khopesh.

So, more specifically, you go to an Absalom weapon maker, who doesn’t have the limitations to type of weapons that he makes, as in PFS they are generic (in my home campaigns they aren’t generic—and an axe maker wouldn’t necessarily make you a sword or a pike) he could make you a katana or a khopesh. If you asked him to make you a katana that looked like a Khopesh, he’d tell you it was a custom build and would cost you extra.

In PFS, customization that has both a monetary and game mechanic effect, are not allowed, because the way organized play works, everything has to be quantifiable across the board, for everyone. Making your katana look like a khopesh is a customization that would both effect how much it costs (custom item) and how its game mechanic stats (both have a set of stats, you can’t use one and say it’s the other).

This may seem highly arbitrary to you, and it may seem like we are curtailing your creativity. But that isn’t the case, not really. Games have rules for reasons. In this case, both the Khopesh and Katana have their own set of rules. It would be like playing Settlers of Catan and saying you wanted to use Carcassone rules.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
The issue here is this; do we police the populace and become jerks, or do we allow flavor?

(...why am I addressing this thread? ... )

Hey there, Lord Twitchiopolis.

We do both.

When something is just flavor ("This sword was my father's, before he turned against the kingdom and joined the usurper. His mentor gave it to me, so that I might redeem both the blade and my family's honor.") we allow it.

When somebody tries to make changes that ought to speak to game stats ("My sword is a lightsaber, but I'm using the stats for a longsword.") we police that issue.

--

A kitsune is a humanoid (shapechanger). If your player has a humanoid (human) PC, she can't go around looking like a shapechanger subtype unless she takes ranks in Disguise.

So, she can go around with a hairband that looks like cat ears. But every PC or NPC who sees her has to be able to tell that she's human. Otherwise, the bad-guy rangers with favored enemy (human) might not attack her, because they think she's a shape-changer. And she'll have an advantage against the bad-guy inquisitors, who might be tricked into thinking she's a shape-changer and attacking her with the wrong bane property.

--

Now, that's not to say she has to be sane, or forthright.

I've seen more than my fair share of characters who are, say, a dwarf who thinks he's an elf, or a druid who claims to be a mage.

If you want your PC to weild a katana and claim it's a khopesh or a giant's toenail, go for it. The campaign has all sorts of colorful characters. But every PC and NPC can tell by sight it's a katana. And, if you sit at my table, I would appreciate you spelling that out. ("Quasshie draws his (air-quotes) khopesh, which looks strangely like a katana to anybody who knows the difference...")

If your friend wants a human PC who pretends to be a kitsune, more power to her. Lord knows, maybe she fell through a rift in time and space from a Renaissance festival... And if she buys up Disguise, or buys a hat of disguise, she can use the game mechnics that exist for that skill and that item to fool PCs or NPCs.

--

The human Racial Heritage feat can borrow parts of a dwarf's heritage, because dwarf is a legal race. A human can't borrow part of a troll's heritage, because a troll isn't a legal race. If the PC had the boon that allowed her to play a kitsune, I would guess that Mike would be okay with her playing a human who borrows parts of a kitsune's racial heritage.

**

Chris Mortika wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
The issue here is this; do we police the populace and become jerks, or do we allow flavor?

(...why am I addressing this thread? ... )

Hey there, Lord Twitchiopolis.

We do both.

When something is just flavor ("This sword was my father's, before he turned against the kingdom and joined the usurper. His mentor gave it to me, so that I might redeem both the blade and my family's honor.") we allow it.

When somebody tries to make changes that ought to speak to game stats ("My sword is a lightsaber, but I'm using the stats for a longsword.") we police that issue.

--

A kitsune is a humanoid (shapechanger). If your player has a humanoid (human) PC, she can't go around looking like a shapechanger subtype unless she takes ranks in Disguise.

So, she can go around with a hairband that looks like cat ears. But every PC or NPC who sees her has to be able to tell that she's human. Otherwise, the bad-guy rangers with favored enemy (human) might not attack her, because they think she's a shape-changer. And she'll have an advantage against the bad-guy inquisitors, who might be tricked into thinking she's a shape-changer and attacking her with the wrong bane property.

The PC is human. EVERYONE KNOWS that she's human. She has ears and a tail, reminicent of her kitsune heritage. She suffers bane and favored enemy bonuses from both (as per the feat, Racial Heritage, which she posesses).

James wrote:

"This, gentleman, is my proudest possession: A khopesh crafted in the forges of Pharoah Katenkenin!"

"Hmmm. Looks like a katana to me."

"No, it is a KHOPESH. Look at these heiroglyphics on the hilt."

"Are you sure that writing isn't Tian? I think I can make out a few words, 'Made in Taiw...'"

"Ill-mannered fool! May the dung of a thousand vultures drop into your wineglass! Those characters are Ancient Osirioni heiroglyphs! They call upon the blessed spirits of the Dawn to watch over the sword's bearer!"

"But.... it still looks like a katana to me."

I loled. And exactlly. It is a katana. I heralds to Osirion.

andrew wrote:

Flavor text—

My elf has violet eyes and my gnome has green hair.
My druid’s pteranodon companion has mottled skin coloring with a bright red crest.
My sword has a blue sheen to it because some azure crystals were used in the smelting and smithing process.

Reskinning—
My katana is a khopesh
My human has dog ears
My druid’s cheetah (small cat) companion is really an elven hound

Flavor Text is ok
Reskinning is not

That’s the line.

You want a Khopesh looking sword, use a khopesh.

But let's say you say "My Taldan has red hair."

All well and good. But according to the Innder Sea World Guide, red is not a Taldan hair color. Then what?
Are we to assume that every katana comes from Katana Joes and looks exactlly the same?

**

Chris Mortika wrote:
The human Racial Heritage can borrow parts of a dwarf's heritage, because dwarf is a legal race. A human can't borrow part of a troll's heritage, because a troll isn't a legal race.

Is this true? I haven't seen anything on it. As far as I know, the restrictions are that it must be a humanoid race.

Cheliax ***

I have a PC that is a Dwarf. He's a cleric of a Gnome god. He wears a disguise to look like a Gnome. Poorly (the -12 is a hard modifier to overcome). Every game I introduce him to the Players as a Dwarf cleric of Nivi - and to the PCs as a Gnome ("roll Perception"). The other PCs have a great time whispering about his "odd" habits. It's great fun.

I like this above:("Quasshie draws his (air-quotes) khopesh, which looks strangely like a katana to anybody who knows the difference...")
- you should try that. Be sure that every player knows it's a katana - and pretty soon you'll have all the other players using the "air-quotes" and compairing swords with you. ("it's a guy thing I guess")

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

LT, take a look at Mike's post in this thread.

The general restrictions in the Pathfinder RPG doen't have the same restrictions as the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign.

So, she can probably take Racial Heritage (kitsune), but not the ears or tail.

*****

Lord Twitchiopolis,

I completely understand where you are coming from. I am glad that you have the responsibility as a GM to come on these boards and ask when you have a question about PFS play. However, we have given you the answer...reskinning is NOT allowed. Giving racial feats for a boon-only race is NOT allowed. You may ask why, but in the end, it comes down to: because the campaign has decided that those rulings are in the best interest of PFS. No amount of asking why is going to change the answer. Mike and Mark have already answered this question.

If you really want an answer why these are not allowed, it's because it results in endless discussions like this one. And there must be a line drawn somewhere, and it will come down on the side of conservatism to prevent abuse.

**

Chris Mortika wrote:

LT, take a look at Mike's post in this thread.

The general restrictions in the Pathfinder RPG doen't have the same restrictions as the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign.

Thefurmonger beat you to it :D I will correct that error, regarding the Magic Tail feat. However, that still doesn't address Racial Heritage specifically, and the additional resources page doesn't say anything about it either.

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