Reach Attacks


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

This is something that has bugged me since GenConOz 2010...
Does this allow a PC to attack the second diagonal square? That is the square that requires 15' of movement to end moment in.


Masika wrote:

This is something that has bugged me since GenConOz 2010...

Does this allow a PC to attack the second diagonal square? That is the square that requires 15' of movement to end moment in.

Technically no, that square is 15' away.

There was a rule in 3.5 that granted reach to that square, but it was not carried over into PFRPG.

This leaves a reach gap, meaning someone can approach a polearm wielding opponent along the diagonal without ever leaving a threatened square.

This is almost always house ruled to either grant the second diagonal to anyone with the standard 10' reach, or by convoluted "threatened only when moving" rules.

Francis Kunkel wrote:
1. Can you or can you not attack diagonally at a distance of 2x squares (15'=10' exception) with a reach weapon?
Nope. A reach weapon gives a specific extension to your reach. When you count out squares, since every other square is doubled when you count diagonally, that means that there'll be corners where you can't reach.

Later:

JJ Says: "I suspect I might have ruled wrong on how reach works, but it makes logical sense to me. If you prefer to have reach fill an entire area around you rather than leave "holes" in the corners, that's fine. That's how most people rule it, I believe, and the sky hasn't fallen yet so it's probably okay. :-)"

Even later:
James says "Reach, in my opinion, should work into diagonal squares, though."

So while 2nd diagonal for 10' reach is technically a house rule, it's one supported by the creative director. (And one I heartily encourage)

Actual rules:

Measuring Distance "As a general rule, distance is measured assuming that 1 square equals 5 feet."

Diagonals: "When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on."


This would work so much better on a hex mat.

Scarab Sages

Thanks for clearing that up! I knew I was right! :)


Problem is, if you exclude diagonals, it becomes really easy to negate the reach of large creatures.


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this is my gospel


Large creatures heck, it creates the weird situation of: I am fighter with a reach weapon! You cannot approach me without facing an attack of opportunity! Oh, damn, you moved in through the diagonal. There is no attack of opportunity as you leapfrogged my threatened area.

- Gauss


Yeah, if the diagonal "gap" ruling stands that would be Piss poor, I think it needs to be officially addressed and written that 10' reach INCLUDES diagonals, especially since there are no rules regarding facing.

Sovereign Court

I saw an explanation somewhere that while the 15ft diagonal space is out of reach, and the 5ft diagonal space is out of reach, the intersection between them was within reach.

a is not within reach (too far); b is not within reach (too close); c is not within reach (too close); r is within reach; $ is you.

_ and | are gridlines; + are ordinary intersections, and x are the special intersections.

Now, the intersections between a and b (marked with x) are exactly in reach, so anyone passing over those intersections from a to b or b to a, provokes an AoO.

a|r|r|r|a
_x_+_+_x_
r|b|c|b|r
_+_+_+_+_
r|c|$|c|r
_+_+_+_+_
r|b|c|b|r
_x_+_+_x_
a|r|r|r|a

P.S.: the schematic looks better in monospace font. Copy it into your editor text box to see.


Okay so that applies to reach weapons? What about lunging or natural 10' reach? I still prefer since there is no facing that a character with reach can attack anything within 2 squares EVEN if it's diagonal.

Sovereign Court

Lunge and natural reach are simpler:

Where f is too far away, r is within 10ft natural or lunge reach, and anything moving across the x provokes the natural reach (but not the lunge, since lunge is only during your own turn).

f|r|r|r|f
_x_+_+_x_
r|r|r|r|r
_+_+_+_+_
r|r|$|r|r
_+_+_+_+_
r|r|r|r|r
_x_+_+_x_
f|r|r|r|f


Still excludes diagonal I see. Yes, I know it is the rule, but a poorly thought out rule nonetheless.


Ascalaphus wrote:

I saw an explanation ...

Very slick! A very elegant way of incorporating official rules and common sense, without adding a houserule. Very nice!!


Ascalaphus wrote:

I saw an explanation somewhere that while the 15ft diagonal space is out of reach, and the 5ft diagonal space is out of reach, the intersection between them was within reach.

I don't like the "phantom square" approach because it still doesn't address the issue that a medium creature with a reach weapon does not threaten any squares in a diagonal hallway.

Yeah, it's an artifact of the grid, but it's no longer properly accounted for. When the official rules work in actual play, I'll use them, until then,: Broken Rules get Houseruled.

Sovereign Court

*shrug* I don't find it troublesome. You can't reach the diagonal because it's too far away, but you can still tag everything trying to exploit those diagonals. You can still guard a 25ft hallway.

In the square grid, there's always going to be something weird. Right now it's a phantom square; otherwise it's 15ft reach on diagonals, which I'm sure could also be exploited in some way. Also, it'd be weird if you went long on diagonal melee attacks, but short on diagonal spell ranges.

If you really don't want this, you'll have to change to a different grid.


I think the way 3.5 handled it worked best. Being able to gain that little bit of extra reach for the first diangle gives the benefit of a polearm. Only applying it to the first diangle sticks with the spirit of a circle that can be defended.

As to the 25' hall, if it was on an 45' angle to the grid, one could sneak past without provoking an attack if the 2nd diangle doesn't count. The target could go from half square to half square and never get attacked.

The Hex grid will solve this problem but cause many more. It works great in open areas such as fields but is horrible in dungeons or castles. There are always half hexes that need special rules.

In every type of grid there is going to be something weird.


Ascalaphus wrote:
I saw an explanation somewhere that while the 15ft diagonal space is out of reach, and the 5ft diagonal space is out of reach, the intersection between them was within reach.

That would be SKR's clarification on medium reach, backed by JB. And, while Jason admits it's not clear, the FAQ requests on that post (and others) were marked 'Staff response: no reply required' and SKR said "It's not an error--that would be the text giving you wrong information. It's just unclear."

Most of the FAQ posts (SKR's and JJ's) have been marked no reply required, but if you'd like to flag something anyway, there's a FAQ Request post here with 22 flags.


Ascalaphus wrote:

*shrug* I don't find it troublesome. You can't reach the diagonal because it's too far away, but you can still tag everything trying to exploit those diagonals. You can still guard a 25ft hallway.

In the square grid, there's always going to be something weird. Right now it's a phantom square; otherwise it's 15ft reach on diagonals, which I'm sure could also be exploited in some way. Also, it'd be weird if you went long on diagonal melee attacks, but short on diagonal spell ranges.

If you really don't want this, you'll have to change to a different grid.

You can tag them coming up, but that will be the only hit you get in for the entire exchange because YOU DON'T THREATEN ANY SQUARES. Once they are in melee with you there is NO square to which you can move that will allow you to get in a hit.

Perhaps giving corners to reach can be exploited, but I challenge you to find a corner case that will break an encounter as fully as the one I described. Spell ranges are really a non-issue, for one area spells are measured from intersections so they don't encounter the same problems as melee combat; two, there aren't many spells with a range of 10', which are the only ones that would be affected; and three, there are no spells that function only at 10' range (not 5' or 15').

Any grid you use will have it's problems that need to be worked around. Switch to a hex map and hallways at right angles become a collection of half hexes. It's a 5ft hallway, but you're still squeezing most of the way unless you make exceptions to allow straddling hexes. In short, any grid you use will need exceptions for corner cases. If you really don't want this, you'll have to change to a gridless system.

Sovereign Court

Quantum Steve wrote:


You can tag them coming up, but that will be the only hit you get in for the entire exchange because YOU DON'T THREATEN ANY SQUARES. Once they are in melee with you there is NO square to which you can move that will allow you to get in a hit.

I'm not seeing this... is this what you mean?

.|r|r|r|e
_+_+_+_+_
r|.|.|.|r
_+_+_+_+_
r|.|$|.|r
_+_+_+_+_
r|.|.|.|r
_+_+_+_+_
.|r|r|r|.

where . indicates a square too close or too far away to reach, and the enemy starts at e.

The enemy moves in, and you make your attack;

.|r|r|r|.
_+_+_+_+_
r|.|.|e|r
_+_+_+_+_
r|.|$|.|r
_+_+_+_+_
r|.|.|.|r
_+_+_+_+_
.|r|r|r|.

Now the enemy is too close. But since that's basically how fighting with a polearm works, you move 1 step south;

.|r|r|E|.
_+_+_+_+_
r|.|.|.|r
_+_+_+_+_
r|.|$|.|r
_+_+_+_+_
r|.|.|.|r
_+_+_+_+_
.|r|r|r|.

and the enemy is at position E, where you can reach it.

I don't see any move the enemy can make towards you where you can't reach it again with a mere 5ft step. But please do show me if I'm wrong, because I want to master this (I play a Reach Druid.)


I have a polearm master character for a Slumbering Tsar game, and now reached 9th level which means I get flexible flanker. That lets you treat any square adjancent to you for the purpose of working out if you are flanking, which really helps situations like this.


Ascalaphus wrote:
I'm not seeing this... is this what you mean?

I can't really understand your ASCII diagram there, so here's an image.

http://i.imgur.com/TQThjQJ.jpg

$ (green) is a medium reach polarm user, E (blue) is the enemy. They're in a 5-foot diagonal hallway. Red squares are threatened by $.

When E moves in on the diagonal (following squares 1, 2, then 3) he approaches. RAW, since he never leaves a threatened square, he never provokes.

Using SKR/JB's 'clarification' you don't threaten squares, you threaten a band, so when E attempts to cross from square 2 to square 3, he provokes, and $ can take the attack (in the phantom square).

The problem is the phantom square only applies for AoO's caused by movement directly towards you. After moving, E is no longer threatened. Even if $ takes a 5' step away, that just puts E 15' away. $'s only option is to squeeze into a half-square.

Sovereign Court

Grick: no, if E ends his move in square 3, then $ can take a 5ft step south; now E is within the threatened area again.

I don't see any spot inside $'s band where $ can't threaten you with just one 5ft move.

But it's "always" been the way that if you get close to a polearm wielder, that he has to move before threatening you again. If you suffer the AoO to get close to $, he HAS to move; that's the same regardless of whether you use the big-square or the weird-circle threat-band.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Grick: no, if E ends his move in square 3, then $ can take a 5ft step south; now E is within the threatened area again.

No, he can't. (Assuming you mean south as straight down) The big thick black lines are walls, they're in a 5-foot wide hallway.

To move into the square directly below his current green square, he must squeeze. Moving into that square costs double movement, which means he can't take a 5-foot step. Even if he uses a move action to get into that square (which provokes from E), $ then takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

If by south you mean diagonally down and to the left (retreating away from E) then a single 5' step puts $ 15 feet from E and once again out of reach. (It would be the same as if E was in square 2)

Ascalaphus wrote:
But it's "always" been the way that if you get close to a polearm wielder, that he has to move before threatening you again. If you suffer the AoO to get close to $, he HAS to move; that's the same regardless of whether you use the big-square or the weird-circle threat-band.

The problem is not just provoking AoOs from movement, the problem is threatening a square for all other purposes. E can cast a spell in squares 1, 2, or 3, and not provoke because $ doesn't threaten him. And the only place $ can move to threaten him is by squeezing into a half square.


If E takes a step south he is in a half square. Therefore he is squeezing. Following the rules, that would be a -4 to attacks and AC.

Make the hall 4 squares wide (on the diangle) and the target can squueze through the half squares without provoking.

Sovereign Court

Ah, I see your point now, about the walls. That's indeed annoying, although I do think that should be blamed on a square grid not handling diagonal corridors very well. But it's a legitimate problem, and altering the threatened area into the square band would indeed solve it.

As an aside, have you noticed how extremely rare spells with AoE-radius 10ft are? It's like they're being avoided on purpose.

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