Okay, I've seen at least three Pathfinder modules so far in which a powerful Lawful Evil antagonist elbow deep in (a) villainy and/or (b) personal investment with the status quo of a malevolently orderly nation; makes a deal with a devil exchanging their soul for some kind of Hellish service to help them conquer the world or a chunk of it. And in two of those modules, the villain is worried about it and trying to beat the devil or escape the deal.
Now I understand why a devil might be inclined to enter a deal with a powerful or significant Lawful Evil mortal to garner influence on the Prime Material and so he/she gets that potent soul instead of a rival.
What I don't understand is what the villain has to lose. I mean, the whole cosmology of Golarion involves going to the plane of your Alignment... and in the case of Lawful Evil villains, this means going to Hell and being tortured by devils for all eternity or until you get broken down for raw materials or to make more devils. How is that different than if you make a deal with one? They are actually damned if they do and damned if they don't.
I guess what got to me is reading about a module where (without naming names) an influential Chellish Thrune-ite niece and grand-uncle duo make a deal with an arch-devil promising him the soul of whichever of them dies first. The two of them are banking on the other one expiring before they do, and it seems really pointless and foolish, because it isn't as if the winner of the reverse death race goes to heaven. I know the archetypical defining character flaw of Lawful Evil Villainy is hubris and the idea they're going to get away with something when making Faustian deals, but really? It's the state religion of Cheliax and one of the two characters is an inquisitor for crying out loud! They oughtta know better! You go to Hell when you die. It's a thing that happens. They actually preach it! What's to get away with?
My guess is there is a huge difference between dying and eventually going to hell (eventually because you are sitting around for an indeterminate period of time before being finally processed) and going to hell immediately. The evil guys probably know they are damned, they just want to wait it out as long as possible.
Additionally, there is also the element of 'what hell will you suffer when you go to hell'. People who are evil probably do not suffer as much as people who have sold their souls.
- Gauss
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Aside from LE folks that don't consider themselves to actually be evil, for those that are more self-aware they might hold onto the hope that they themselves could hit it big in Hell. They wouldn't sell their soul for a quick fix of power now. They're going to beat the odds. They're going to be the sort that reigns in hell while those that cashed in early are ground beneath their heel.
Ironically, I had a similar motivation for an LE guy that did intend to sell his soul, the one evil character I ever played in Conan RPG. Due to being raised in Stygia and managing to survive being sacrificed(the snake didn't), he was absolutely convinced he was damned. So to escape the torment he was absolutely sure awaited him, he figured he might as well settle and make a deal with a demon/devil for a less harsh afterlife. He considered it a wise move and that he had realistic expectations. After all, how many sorcerers made deals with demons for power and immortality and got cut down by some barbarian anyway?
Power in life is a fool's game. Eternity is where you need to invest.
That sort of twisted logic, arrogance, and fear can apply to those that make deals and those that refuse to, depending on the nature of the deals.
For other LE folks, it might actually be a matter of principle. Some particularly arrogant examples(ie: Cheliax) may refuse to see the denizens of hell as anything more than wily equals, to be treated with carefully, not to offer oneself to in exchange for temporary power.
First, knowing you are damned and seeing yourself as evil are two different things. Just like saying 'I am going to jail' is not the same as saying 'I am a criminal'. Many criminals (esp higher quality white collar types) dont think of themselves as criminals.
Unfortunately, the path to evil is not so clear cut. Many otherwise intelligent people make idiotic decisions. They DO take shortcuts to power, in effect, robbing Peter to pay Paul. By the time they realize they are in too deep it is too late. We have the advantage of being on the outside looking in and as a result we see it for what it is. Idiocy.
All we have to do is look around us irl to see how many people dig themselves in deep with the 'devil' (creditors) thinking they can get themselves out at some later date. This is no different.
There are no shortage of examples in either literacy or real life to draw from. Too many people do this sort of thing. The only difference is that irl there is no such thing as the devil or a soul. *ducks*
- Gauss
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What kind of villain doesn't plan on some kind of immortality? Lichdom, Sun Orchid Elixir, repeated reincarnation, whatever, but something.
Selling your soul makes that a lot harder as you have people waiting for it down in the afterlife, and if you evade death lng enough they may well come for it. And that could be...inconvenient.
Additionally, there's pride, often the main motivation for a really impressive villain of that alignment, and one that most definately balksat anyone at all having power over you in this way. It certainly did for the LE character I played in an Evil game (though since his concept was "Evil Overlord done right" he avoided making such a deal in the first place).
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I mean, the whole cosmology of Golarion involves going to the plane of your Alignment...
The notion of selling your soul for power has always been absurd. If you are willing to sell your soul for power, then your soul is already going to hell anyway, so the devils would have to be idiots to give you anything for it, since they are getting it anyway.
Erac's Cousin had the right idea, bargaining not for power in life, but to be 'fast-tracked' to major devil status when he arrived in hell, rather than suffer through the various stages.
An additional note is that they may want to sell their souls for instant power, yes, but know that if they, by accident, die, even if they prepared some kind of plan to resurrect, they couldn't because their souls are not free to return, being trapped in Hell.
But the most basic thing, I think, is no one wants to give others an advantage over himself. They want their share of the deal by giving the least possible in return.
And the other things.
What kind of villain doesn't plan on some kind of immortality? Lichdom, Sun Orchid Elixir, repeated reincarnation, whatever, but something.
Selling your soul makes that a lot harder as you have people waiting for it down in the afterlife, and if you evade death lng enough they may well come for it. And that could be...inconvenient.
Exactly.
Normally a soul spends an amount of time in Pharasma's Boneyard before being sent along to its eternal reward, regardless of character alignment. So long as it is there it can be raised and/or returned to life (or some form of unlife). Most BBEGs have some way of returning to the material plane, sometimes perpetually, but this must be accomplished while their soul remains in the Boneyard; once a soul progresses beyond Pharasma's grasp it is beyond mortal power to return that soul to life.
Selling one's soul would negate this option. The infernal being would claim the evil soul immediately, preventing it from visiting the Boneyard. No time with Pharasma means to time to return to the material plane: It means true death.
Don't forget that Devils will sometimes twist the wishes of those who barter there souls, or put other little inconvenient clauses into the contracts. A smart Big Bad probably realizes that diabolic power has cost, and might not want to pay it.
Honestly the only bad guys I could see being big into it would be the incredibly vain and proud (who think they can rob the devil his due), the stupid, and those already devoted to the causes of Hell, like followers of Asmodeus (Who would be following there bosses wishes and not really have anything to lose).
The 3.5 book Tyrants of the Nine Hells details faustian deals. According to that book there are a few things to consider when making a deal for a soul.
1. The Devil will always 100% honour any deal it makes. If you sell your sould for 100 000gp you will get it. The Devil may have you assassinated 1 hour after you get your 100k though.
2. LE souls are not guranteed to go to hell. A LE cleric of a LN god for example will go to that gods domain. Selling your soul gives the Devils a claim on your soul though overriding your gods claim. The one step alignment rule only applies to Clerics. A LG deity can have LE followers and if they are genuine in their faith they will go to the gods domain. A CG and LE character are both two steps away from a LG deity but that deity may be Ra for example and they would worship him anyway, just not as a cleric.
3. A LE soul is worth less than say a LG one (the Devils will get it anyway unless another god has dibs) but the LE character may change alignment later in life. That means the Devils will not get the soul.
4. Considering selling your soul is not a evil act as such (temptation and all that). However anyone completing a fausian pact with a devil immediately become LE. Even if one changes alignment your soul is still hell bound IIRC.
Even if one sells their soul there are a couple of outs. The most obvious one is the Devils do not honour their part of the bargain. Perhaps you die before the Devil has had time to pay you.Pacts can also be voided if they were obtained by force or duress. This means you can appeal your sentence as such (or more likely a friend). By the rules of Hell the Devils themselves will release such a soul on appeal. However this requires around 4 skill checks (religion/planes for knowledge on appeal, then you have to make 3 skill checks and total them and roll higher than the prosecutions score). I think there was another problem in some cases if someone does change there alignment and/or another god has a claim on your soul.
Just checked atonement spells and changing your alignment can void a faustian pact but Devils usually try and arrange someones death while they are LE.
I think one reason for Evil Villains to not sell their soul is because they are often megalomaniacs. Loosing control to other people is not often a character trait in them.
I think people who /want/ to be evil villains but are not yet sell their soul to get the power. But if they already have the power its a bit loose for them, unless they think they can trick the devil.
Honestly? Reason to sell your soul: fast power. Also the reason not to sell your soul.
So a test: walk through the store while hungry. The test: dont buy anything not on your shopping list.
Many of us fail this teat. Evil fails this test too. Only difference is the hunger is for power.
Those who have the patience to slowly build power do not sell thier souls. Those who do not sell thier souls.
Cheesy quote:
Is the dark side stronger?
No, no, quicker, easier, more seductive.
Same issue here.
- Gauss
None of our esteemed lords would just take the promise to give ones soul to hell as a payment.
The mortal usually needs to augment the deal with promises of servitude or even ownership to the Devil who stands behind the contract.
But don't let this dishearten you. The servitude will only last a few Aeons and if you are a good servant, you will always have the chance to aquire lesser beings to suffer some of the consequenses you have brought upon yourself.
I mean, the whole cosmology of Golarion involves going to the plane of your Alignment...The notion of selling your soul for power has always been absurd. If you are willing to sell your soul for power, then your soul is already going to hell anyway, so the devils would have to be idiots to give you anything for it, since they are getting it anyway.
Well, I can see a devil doing it if he wants to be the one to get your soul; if we understand souls as currency or power and the devil with the most souls belonging to him is winning. I mean, supporting the Hell general fund is all fine and good, but having more souls in your personal bank account is better.
Id have thought that the devils would like the LE mortal to stay alive as much as possbile, to do there bdding on this plane.
They would view a LE mortal much more useful alive and on this plane, that as another soul, in Hell?
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Id have thought that the devils would like the LE mortal to stay alive as much as possbile, to do there bdding on this plane.
They would view a LE mortal much more useful alive and on this plane, that as another soul, in Hell?
And then there's all the other long cons and investments the devil can make.
Suddenly just remembered seeing "From The Brothers Grimm: Bearskin" as a kid. Adapted the German fairy tale to Civil War-era Virginia. Ended with the devil proclaiming to the audience that he's the one that came out on top in the story, since he "Got two souls for the price of one."
I could be way off on this, but I also thought that selling your soul and bargaining with the lower powers also got you past the Lemure/Manes level of fiendishness. In other words, you get to Hell/Abyss and you get promoted to one of the other Devil/Demon types...based on your crimes in life.
That's how I play it anyway.
And Lords of the Damned is great for this because most of the demons/devils/Daemons have listed crimes from life...
What modules do you find these situtaions in?
The notion of selling your soul for power has always been absurd. If you are willing to sell your soul for power, then your soul is already going to hell anyway, so the devils would have to be idiots to give you anything for it, since they are getting it anyway.
Well, the devils might be willing to make these deals just to safeguard against the unlikely possibility that the villain might be redeemed in the future. This way no matter what happens they win.
I could be way off on this, but I also thought that selling your soul and bargaining with the lower powers also got you past the Lemure/Manes level of fiendishness. In other words, you get to Hell/Abyss and you get promoted to one of the other Devil/Demon types...based on your crimes in life.
That's how I play it anyway.
And Lords of the Damned is great for this because most of the demons/devils/Daemons have listed crimes from life...
That was my understanding, but I think that only applies if you don't fail. If some good guys foil your plans and kill you, well...don't expected the afterlife to shake out like you wanted.
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Perhaps all the Devils have a strictly hierarchical structure based on Mephistopheles Points (MP). Some devils may be more physically or magically powerful than other devils, but MP determines their overall rank. Devils can gain MP by having a mortal sign away their soul in a Faustian pact. These pacts delight Mephistopheles and cause the devil responsible for the contract pact to gain favor in his eyes, represented by MP.
Although the devils would gain the soul anyway (in an unorganized collective that Mephistopheles would divvy out as he saw fit), these completed pacts serve as reminders of the importance, power and horror of contracts in the mortal population. Thus causes the portfolio of contracts to grow in power, which, in turn, causes Mephistopheles power to grow.
Therefore they are not gaining a soul, but making their boss more powerful and increasing their hierarchical rank.
This is all just my guess.
*dismisses Imp*
Well, you have instances where a good-aligned character finds themselves in such desperate situations that they sell their souls for what they hope to be serving the greater good. I suppose there will be arguments that "if they're considering it, they've already fallen too far to be 'good' anymore" but I disagree.
Anakin Skywalker was ready to lay down the law on Palpatine when he found out the old senator was actually THE Sith Lord all along (gee whiz). Palpatine tempted him and got him to switch sides pretty quickly. Anakin was essentially selling his soul to the Dark Side to save Padme. Of course that didn't work out for him.
I had another example, but it has escaped me as I continued reading the thread... I don't know if Arthas from Warcraft counts. His slope was considerably more gradual than Anakin's (sandpeople slaughter aside).
EDIT: Also, consider that the forces of Hell may be working on sealing a deal for a very long time, tempting and corrupting their charge. Perhaps to them, even though a soul is already damned, it might be worth more with the proper "paperwork" attached to it, and their corrupting influences are just working them towards that end. Kinda like they're breeding cattle.
3 points on this one:
1. Who is in control: from what I've read Cheliax believes very firmly that they are the masters and the devils are their minions / servants, not vice versa. Selling your soul to a devil sort of throws this delusion / illusion out the window, so it may be a bigger deal in their case.
2. Who owns the contract: notice that the deal is NOT with Asmodius, so there may be some interesting devil-politics going on with the particular souls in question. (Especially given their family and their family's normal ties to Asmodius.)
3. Only one soul is due: at least one of the two individuals involved in the contract has attempted, more than once, to extend their lifespan to avoid having their number pulled. Both think that they can "beat out" the other.
Also, there's probably a big difference between showing up in the afterlife "naturally" and having a "pre-paid delivery" tag on you...
-TimD