It's official. Whedon Haters Beware.

The Avengers 2

Awesome News.

<Waves at FreeholdDM>

I am looking forward to the next Avengers movie. Marvel has been doing a consistently great job with their franchises.

There are Whedon haters?

I guess there's just no pleasing some people at all.

I have yet to read any complaints about the Avengers because of Whedon.

I have yet to read any complaints about the Avengers because of Whedon.

Go read through the Avengers thread. There's plenty there.

I frickin love the Avengers! For once, I actually liked Captain America in a movie. That in itself is a miracle.

<Waves at FreeholdDM>

I am looking forward to the next Avengers movie. Marvel has been doing a consistently great job with their franchises.

waves at taig we will see how this latest offering does.

the problem I foresee is only that the executives of the film industry are going to get their grubby hands on the film and start trying to corporatize it or some such, much like they did for Spider-Man 3.

Executive Meddling is a Trope after all, it does happen.

the problem I foresee is only that the executives of the film industry are going to get their grubby hands on the film and start trying to corporatize it or some such, much like they did for Spider-Man 3.

Executive Meddling is a Trope after all, it does happen.

a trope in a whedon-helmed work? Heavens forfend!

If y'all dont mind my asking what happened to Spider man 3 and how can that happen with Avengers 2?

Executives demanded Raimi include Venom. Although, to be honest, I don't find #3 to be that much worse than #1 or #2. None of them were that great.

Executives demanded Raimi include Venom. Although, to be honest, I don't find #3 to be that much worse than #1 or #2. None of them were that great.

I think 3 would have been a much better movie without Sandman, actually. I was interested in the Brock/Venom and Osborn/Goblin Jr. subplots, as both characters had really interesting ties to Peter, both as Peter, and as Spider-Man. Sandman was deadly dull, and felt like he belonged in a different movie entirely. Or maybe it was just the acting. The Sandman characterization was very low-energy, and, to me, felt like it was sucking the life out of the room.

But I'm pretty callous, so my whole reaction to the wangsty 'I must steal to get money for my sick daughter!' subplot was 'oh whatever, morally ambiguous caregiver! hie thee to Lifetime network, and get out of my superhero movie!'

Dude, Spider-Man 3's Venom had Sandman all beat to hell in terms of wangst.

1. Waaa! Peter told JJJ that I faked a photo. Waa!

2. Waaa! Peter flirted with a girl that I met once and have convinced myself that I'm in a "relationship" with.

Admittedly, Eddie Brok in the comic books had equally lame reasons to "hate" Spidey.

Whedon is awesome!

Thanks this is good news indeed.

a trope in a whedon-helmed work? Heavens forfend!

There are zero works of fiction by anybody with no tropes in them at all. Even Homer used several. A trope is not a cliche.

Joss Whedon is amazing and broke the TV mold with Buffy and Angel (Angel a far superior series in my opinion and deserved at LEAST another season) and it is criminal that Firefly didn't get more of a chance as the writing and characters and acting on that show were incredible.

Freehold DM wrote:

a trope in a whedon-helmed work? Heavens forfend!

There are zero works of fiction by anybody with no tropes in them at all. Even Homer used several. A trope is not a cliche.

And you mention this because...?

I don't understand why people are jealous of Whedon. He's just a director of fine films.

I really enjoyed the first movie, but I'm wondering what the next movie will be like.

So much of the charm of the first Avengers was in the characters learning about -- and how to deal with -- each other. THough, to Whedon's credit, he does understand that any good movie -- action or not -- is about good character interaction and development.

So I'm cautiously optimistic.

When I first read this I thought it was going to be Will Wheaton.

I need to watch less Big Bang Theory.

Now Josh Whedon, anyone that hates him is devoid of a soul. The man is akin to a god.

<wanders off to find his Firefly undies>

anyone that hates him is devoid of a soul.

Aww, but I was hungry....

There are Whedon haters?

I guess there's just no pleasing some people at all.

I can see why people might have a problem, such as his obsession with super powered adolescent girls with the Buffy and Firefly series.

Then there was the all too predicable writing of Buffy and Angle, where as soon as they get something good it is taken away.

I am not actually complaining too much actually, but this is just what I heard.

-Hexen

Doomed Hero wrote:

There are Whedon haters?

I guess there's just no pleasing some people at all.

I can see why people might have a problem, such as his obsession with super powered adolescent girls with the Buffy and Firefly series.

Then there was the all too predicable writing of Buffy and Angle, where as soon as they get something good it is taken away.

I am not actually complaining too much actually, but this is just what I heard.

-Hexen

FINALLY, SOMEONE who realizes this man is something other than perfect!

I've never claimed Joss is perfect. (Buffy Season 6 and Angel Season 3 being glaring examples of his failures). I still thoroughly enjoy his work and look forward to seeing what he does with Avengers 2 and SHIELD.

I do know he has some over-the-top fans (but then, so do a lot of creators and series) that can be off-putting to some. I've just never understood the "He's a talentless hack" crowd.

I'm tired of all these comic book movies.

I have yet to see one that is even remotely true to the source material.

Not one villain has been defeated using delicious Hostess Fruit Pies.

I'm tired of all these comic book movies.

I have yet to see one that is even remotely true to the source material.

Not one villain has been defeated using delicious Hostess Fruit Pies.

Now THAT I would pay 12 dollars to see.

I've never claimed Joss is perfect. (Buffy Season 6 and Angel Season 3 being glaring examples of his failures). I still thoroughly enjoy his work and look forward to seeing what he does with Avengers 2 and SHIELD.

I do know he has some over-the-top fans (but then, so do a lot of creators and series) that can be off-putting to some. I've just never understood the "He's a talentless hack" crowd.

Spend 5 minutes with one after you have claimed that Whedon is something other than perfect. Then you'll see.

Spend 5 minutes with one after you have claimed that Whedon is something other than perfect. Then you'll see.

I'm part of a forum that started out as a Buffy fangroup. I don't believe anyone there thinks Joss is perfect (though some people may think he's more perfect than others.)

Is it highly positive towards his work? Yes.

Do people get flamed if they critique something? No.

Now, if someone came in and called Joss "a talentless hack" they'd likely be regarded as a troll and reacted to accordingly. But that's different than giving legitimate criticism.

Again, every fandom has its crazies.

Freehold DM wrote:

Spend 5 minutes with one after you have claimed that Whedon is something other than perfect. Then you'll see.

I'm part of a forum that started out as a Buffy fangroup. I don't believe anyone there thinks Joss is perfect (though some people may think he's more perfect than others.)

Is it highly positive towards his work? Yes.

Do people get flamed if they critique something? No.

Now, if someone came in and called Joss "a talentless hack" they'd likely be regarded as a troll and reacted to accordingly. But that's different than giving legitimate criticism.

Again, every fandom has its crazies.

Interesting. However, I must ask if you have posited the idea of Whedon as imperfect or offered any criticism of his work as a whole(not just "I didn't like season x of show y).

Well, it's a Buffy fan forum. The membership is generally going to be people who like Joss' work.

I have seen criticism of specific tropes Joss has a tendency to use or blindspots he has. There is one prominent poster who is a much bigger fan of Tim Minear than Joss himself, and no one calls her a heathen or anything like that.

Again, it's forum dedicated to people who like his works, so you're not really going to find the level of negativity you might find in a general TV forum. But there's no cultish "How dare you speak ill of The Great Whedon?" attitude.

I think someone who was critical of his work as whole would be met with an attitude of "Okay, you're inclined to that view, but why are you here on a pro-Joss board?" provided they weren't unnecessarily antagonistic or trollish.

Joss is one of his own critics. In the Avenger's commentary he mentions the scene with Black Widow tied up in the chair, 'reverse interrogating' the Russians, as a go-to well he draws from too often, of the apparently helpless girl victim turning out to be the person totally in charge of a situation (which he used in both the Buffy movie, and the Buffy TV show, as well as Angel (with Bethany Chalk, for instance), Dollhouse (with November/Mellie) and Firefly (with River, natch)).

He's not quite Stephen King levels of 'I must write the same damn story about four boyhood friends coming together as adults to resolve something from their childhood' death-by-repetition 'though.

Anywho, Avengers 2. I'm hoping that some sort of Ant-Man/Giant-Man/Wasp intro has occured by then, even if just as name-droppage in someone elses movie (or in a pointless cameo like Hawkeye's in the Thor movie) so that we can have all of the founding Avengers in the second movie. (Or even Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver, who may have shown up later, but at the same time as Hawkeye, and well before the Black Widow, so they are hardly latecomers...)

Well, it's a Buffy fan forum. The membership is generally going to be people who like Joss' work.

I have seen criticism of specific tropes Joss has a tendency to use or blindspots he has. There is one prominent poster who is a much bigger fan of Tim Minear than Joss himself, and no one calls her a heathen or anything like that.

Again, it's forum dedicated to people who like his works, so you're not really going to find the level of negativity you might find in a general TV forum. But there's no cultish "How dare you speak ill of The Great Whedon?" attitude.

I have only noticed the craziness among devotees of Firefly myself. I have never seen it among followers of Buffy or Angel.

I have only noticed the craziness among devotees of Firefly myself. I have never seen it among followers of Buffy or Angel.

The Firefly fandom tends to be a little more in-your-face because of the feeling that the show was treated very poorly by Fox (which I agree with) and the massive fan involvement in trying to keep the show on the air.

For a lot of the fans, Buffy and Angel were good shows, but Firefly was personal because of their efforts to save it.

I personally love Firefly, and was very involved in the fandom in the early years, but I can certainly understand where members of the fandom can be off-putting.

I think part of the problem also is for a lot of fans, saying something like "How can you call yourself a geek and not like Firefly?" is obviously meant as a joke. Unfortunately, there's a small subsection who would say it all too seriously.

Oh, hey, we BtVS had a lot of shipping wars which got quite nasty. ^^

Oh, hey, we BtVS had a lot of shipping wars which got quite nasty. ^^

Oh yes, the Spuffy shippers vs. the Bangel shippers vs. that one person who liked the army dude... But those weren't 'Joss Whedon fans,' so much as fans of specific characters.

I'm surprised that a fan of almost *any* specific character in a Joss Whedon show can also be a fan of Joss Whedon, because he likes to abuse them all so terribly. :)

Joss is like Calvin all grown up, spending painstaking hours building a little world in his sandbox, only to consider the real fun to be stomping through it later making Godzilla noises. Playing with someone elses properties (Marvel's Avengers) constrains that tendency of his to break his toys.

magnuskn wrote:

Oh, hey, we BtVS had a lot of shipping wars which got quite nasty. ^^

Oh yes, the Spuffy shippers vs. the Bangel shippers vs. that one person who liked the army dude... But those weren't 'Joss Whedon fans,' so much as fans of specific characters.

I'm surprised that a fan of almost *any* specific character in a Joss Whedon show can also be a fan of Joss Whedon, because he likes to abuse them all so terribly. :)

Joss is like Calvin all grown up, spending painstaking hours building a little world in his sandbox, only to consider the real fun to be stomping through it later making Godzilla noises. Playing with someone elses properties (Marvel's Avengers) constrains that tendency of his to break his toys.

As long as Whedon makes movies, there will always be a blood sacrifice in there somewhere. Kali ma.

I think part of the problem also is for a lot of fans, saying something like "How can you call yourself a geek and not like Firefly?" is obviously meant as a joke. Unfortunately, there's a small subsection who would say it all too seriously.

That's one large small subsection. I've yet to meet a Firefly fan who was something other than rabid with respect to the series.

Josh Whedon and George R. R. Martin walk into a bar.

Everyone you've ever loved dies.

Kalshane wrote:

I think part of the problem also is for a lot of fans, saying something like "How can you call yourself a geek and not like Firefly?" is obviously meant as a joke. Unfortunately, there's a small subsection who would say it all too seriously.

That's one large small subsection. I've yet to meet a Firefly fan who was something other than rabid with respect to the series.

(waves hi). Now you have.

I'm hoping that some sort of Ant-Man/Giant-Man/Wasp intro has occured by then, even if just as name-droppage in someone elses movie (or in a pointless cameo like Hawkeye's in the Thor movie) so that we can have all of the founding Avengers in the second movie.

Pssst Set, you do know there an Ant Man movie that was slated for 2014, which got pushed back right?

You would probably be more excited about The Guardians of the Galaxy, which may be the reason the other movie was pushed back.

Set wrote:

I'm hoping that some sort of Ant-Man/Giant-Man/Wasp intro has occured by then, even if just as name-droppage in someone elses movie (or in a pointless cameo like Hawkeye's in the Thor movie) so that we can have all of the founding Avengers in the second movie.

Pssst Set, you do know there an Ant Man movie that was slated for 2014, which got pushed back right?

You would probably be more excited about The Guardians of the Galaxy, which may be the reason the other movie was pushed back.

I can't wait for Guardians.

Josh Whedon and George R. R. Martin walk into a bar.

Everyone you've ever loved dies.

I...am not sure what I would do. Probably explode or something.

Freehold DM wrote:

Kalshane wrote:

I think part of the problem also is for a lot of fans, saying something like "How can you call yourself a geek and not like Firefly?" is obviously meant as a joke. Unfortunately, there's a small subsection who would say it all too seriously.

That's one large small subsection. I've yet to meet a Firefly fan who was something other than rabid with respect to the series.

(waves hi). Now you have.

Hnn. We shall see.

Kalshane wrote:

I think part of the problem also is for a lot of fans, saying something like "How can you call yourself a geek and not like Firefly?" is obviously meant as a joke. Unfortunately, there's a small subsection who would say it all too seriously.

That's one large small subsection. I've yet to meet a Firefly fan who was something other than rabid with respect to the series.

I love the series and watch it once every few months. I'm not rabid about it though.

That's one large small subsection. I've yet to meet a Firefly fan who was something other than rabid with respect to the series.

You've been having a conversation with one. I don't think my mouth has been foaming that badly.

Kalshane wrote:

I think part of the problem also is for a lot of fans, saying something like "How can you call yourself a geek and not like Firefly?" is obviously meant as a joke. Unfortunately, there's a small subsection who would say it all too seriously.

That's one large small subsection. I've yet to meet a Firefly fan who was something other than rabid with respect to the series.

You've known me for how long?

There are rabid Firefly fans? Really? Who?

There are rabid Firefly fans? Really? Who?

I would start with the ones on syfy and other science fiction messageboards who were so bad that no threads about Firefly were allowed, and mentions of it were considered grounds for account banning.

Although now it is mostly the annoyance of fans being unable to make a top ten list of anything without having to include Firefly at least twice.

Josh Whedon and George R. R. Martin walk into a bar.

Everyone you've ever loved dies.

Those two alone have the cholesterol blood equivalent of chocolate beer batter fried bacon donughts, of course everyone dies.

thejeff, may I have permission to make that into a shirt?