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A friendly heads up regarding Aasimar and Tiefling


Pathfinder Society GM Discussion

51 to 95 of 95 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Re: Share spells, planetouched and PFS.

Ok, I think this falls under the common sense ruling.

What happens if you target someone who is an invalid target for your spell. If I hit a tiefling with Dominate Person the spell doesn't ping 'invalid target, please select a valid target and try again' right? And it is still cast, right?

So the tiefling can cast enlarge person on himself. It has no effect on him, but he's cast it.

A friendly wizard casts enlarge person on the tiefling's eidolon. Spell goes off, no effect, spell is expended.

Now a tiefling summoner casts enlarge person on his digimo- er eidolon. His class ability makes Tentomon a valid target and he digiv- er enlarges.

Likewise, let's say a druid gets evolution surge as a druid spell. He casts it on Fozzy his cave bear companion. It affects him, and then does nothing because you can't add evolutions to an animal companion.

Simple.

Shadow Lodge ***

I'm going to say, the Class Ability DOES NOT make the Eidolon/Animal Companion a valid target, but otherwise yes.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Kyle Baird wrote:
FWIW, ifrit can use Efreeti Magic to enlarge person once a day.

But he can't enlarge his Tiefling friend :P

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That's because Tieflings are born of an inferior plane.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
That's because Tieflings are born of an inferior plane.

It isn't an inferior plane! It is just a lower level one.


Paul Rees wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
That's because Tieflings are born of an inferior plane.
It isn't an inferior plane! It is just a lower level one.

Semantics. You're all meatbags. ;-)

Andoran **

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Addressing the original topic: it's also worth noting that hideous laughter is noticably less effective for aasimar and tiefling casters than it would otherwise be, especially at low levels.

Osirion ***

nosig wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

...snipping good stuff...

could cast black tentacles on his eidolon rather than an area?

...snipping other good stuff....

the image this brings to mind! wow!

Particularly as Share Spells is touch range only. Deliberately putting yourself inside a Black Tentacles area as a caster is hard core.

Shadow Lodge ***

Kyle Baird wrote:
That's because Tieflings are born of an inferior plane.

What plane isn't the MATERIAL plane inferior to. . .

Shadow Lodge **

Sapphire Onion wrote:
nosig wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

...snipping good stuff...

could cast black tentacles on his eidolon rather than an area?

...snipping other good stuff....

the image this brings to mind! wow!

Particularly as Share Spells is touch range only. Deliberately putting yourself inside a Black Tentacles area as a caster is hard core.

Only spells with a range of "personal" become touch range.

Qadira ****

Serum wrote:
Sapphire Onion wrote:
nosig wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

...snipping good stuff...

could cast black tentacles on his eidolon rather than an area?

...snipping other good stuff....

the image this brings to mind! wow!

Particularly as Share Spells is touch range only. Deliberately putting yourself inside a Black Tentacles area as a caster is hard core.
Only spells with a range of "personal" become touch range.

I don't think anyone was saying you could cast black tentacles on an eidolon, in fact I think it was actually being used as an example of something you couldn't do.

I just had a mental image of someones eidolon having black tentacles and getting the Monty Python image of "A 20 foot electric penguin, with tentacles!". It was a mis-guided attempt at humor. Sorry.

Osirion ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Note also that the Detect Good/Evil/Chaos/Law line of spells will detect Aasimars, Tieflings and other Outsiders at level 1 rather than the normal level 6.

Shadow Lodge ***

I think Detect Alignment spells only detect Outsiders that have that Alignment Subtype at 1st level, not any Outsider who has that Alignment (Intent). I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Neither Aasimar nor Teiflings have an Alignment Subtype, so basically it should use the same exact rules as a Human.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sapphire Onion wrote:
Note also that the Detect Good/Evil/Chaos/Law line of spells will detect Aasimars, Tieflings and other Outsiders at level 1 rather than the normal level 6.

^^^ Also a good note

Cheliax ***** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Is it 6th level or 4th level? The PRD sais 4th level and lower don't have an aura

Osirion ***

Todd Morgan wrote:
Is it 6th level or 4th level? The PRD sais 4th level and lower don't have an aura

Hmm, stealth errata? Finally clarity.

For a long time it overlapped and you had to guess. It used to say:
none levels 1-5
faint levels 5-10

(the d20PFSRD still says this)

With the stealth errata it is now 5th level for normal folk before you can detect an aura

** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

On the Detect spells it looks like having an alignment, rather than having an alignment subtype, is what pings Outsiders from level 1. So a Good Aasimar would ping at level 1 whilst a Good human wouldn't. A True Neutral Aasimar would never ping just like a True Neutral human (unless they were also a cleric of an Aligned deity).

*****

Outsiders are also not affected by a normal positive/negative energy channel. You need to take the feat Alignment Channel, and specify outsiders as a targeting choice.

Which will cause some issues with mixed groups - humanoids and outsiders or even a full party of outsiders with different alignments.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Brian Lefebvre wrote:

Outsiders are also not affected by a normal positive/negative energy channel. You need to take the feat Alignment Channel, and specify outsiders as a targeting choice.

Which will cause some issues with mixed groups - humanoids and outsiders or even a full party of outsiders with different alignments.

Strange... Alignment channel does seem to imply that outsiders aren't normally affected by channeled energy, but I can find no such implication in the rules for outsiders in general.

This is even more significant than you might think, as being unaffected by channeled energy implies being unaffected by positive/negative energy in general, which means being unaffected by cure spells.

And I have a tiefling cleric. O_O

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

...isn't it the case that the "Aligment Channel" is meant for someone who wants to ONLY hit outsiders with a channel?

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Brian Lefebvre wrote:

Outsiders are also not affected by a normal positive/negative energy channel. You need to take the feat Alignment Channel, and specify outsiders as a targeting choice.

Which will cause some issues with mixed groups - humanoids and outsiders or even a full party of outsiders with different alignments.

So you're saying that outsiders are not living creatures?

Note that if this is the case, Alignment Channel would in fact not fix the ability to affected by channel because you chose an alignment subtype, and as mentioned above, Aasimar and Tieflings do not have the alignment subtypes for their alignment, they just have the native subtype.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Did a little digging. Found this thread.

Seems like it's mostly assumed that outsiders are affected by channeled energy as living creatures like anything else, and Alignment Channel just lets you channel more specifically. Developer Sean K Reynolds seems to imply that the main time you would even bother taking Alignment Channel is if you were in a demon-heavy campaign and like channeling to harm but had too many allies for Selective Channeling to be an option.

So I think it's safe to say tiefling and aasimar PCs can be healed as normal (or get inflicted by their enemies).

Shadow Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Fresno (Card Game) aka ThreeEyedSloth

Brian Lefebvre wrote:

Outsiders are also not affected by a normal positive/negative energy channel. You need to take the feat Alignment Channel, and specify outsiders as a targeting choice.

Which will cause some issues with mixed groups - humanoids and outsiders or even a full party of outsiders with different alignments.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. Channeling energy as normal has only two different groups that must be specified when channeling - Living and Undead. That's it. Meaning, all living creatures are affected by channeled energy that is targeting the living, whether to heal or harm.

Here's the exact text from the Core Rulebook:

Core Rulebook wrote:

Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).

Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channel energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect.

A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.

Taking a feat such as Alignment Channel (Law, Chaos, Evil, Good) allows you to narrow down your options of who you're targeting. It also allows GOOD Clerics that only channel Positive Energy to harm outsiders of the selected alignment, without needing Negative Energy to do so.

I hope that makes sense.

Shadow Lodge ***

Brian Lefebvre wrote:
Outsiders are also not affected by a normal positive/negative energy channel. You need to take the feat Alignment Channel, and specify outsiders as a targeting choice.

No, Channeling Energy would work on an Aasimar/Tiefling just like a Human, and would also work the same way if they DID have an Alignment Subtype. Alignment Channeling simply allows you to get around that slightly, allowing for instance the ability to harm ONLY an Evil Outsider and not affect any other living/Undead creature in the area, or to heal only say your summoned <Alignment> Outsiders and not heal enemies.

Alignment Channel:

Alignment Channel
Alignment Channel

Choose chaos, evil, good, or law. You can channel divine energy to affect outsiders that possess this subtype.

Prerequisites: Ability to channel energy.

Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new alignment subtype. Whenever you channel energy, you must choose which type to effect.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Did a little digging. Found this thread.

Hai, that was my digging!

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Cheapy wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Did a little digging. Found this thread.
Hai, that was my digging!

Actually, I found that thread in between making the post you replied to and reading your reply to it. Thanks anyway, though. :)

Osirion ***

Unholy water burns good aligned outsiders.

An anti-magic field appears to suppress outsiders spell-like and supernatural abilities. (Though the wording and context is vague.)

A couple of magic weapons do extra damage against outsiders: Mace of smiting, sword of the planes. And of course you can get an outsider (good) slaying arrow.

Some cleric domain spells do extra damage against specific alignment outsiders eg Unholy Blight.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Sapphire Onion wrote:
Unholy water burns good aligned outsiders.

The real question, actually, is whether "good/evil outsiders" (the phrase used in the rules) actually means outsiders of that alignment or outsiders with that subtype. Most effects dealing with outsiders seem to deal with the subtypes, rather than merely having that alignment, but holy/unholy water doesn't explicitly specify (unless I missed it).

Quote:
An anti-magic field appears to suppress outsiders spell-like and supernatural abilities. (Though the wording and context is vague.)

That's true of everyone's supernatural and spell-like abilities, not just those of outsiders.

Quote:
A couple of magic weapons do extra damage against outsiders: Mace of smiting, sword of the planes. And of course you can get an outsider (good) slaying arrow.

The slaying arrow would be an example of referring to the [good] subtype rather than the good alignment.

Quote:
Some cleric domain spells do extra damage against specific alignment outsiders eg Unholy Blight.

Hm, this would seem to be another one that's unclear as to whether "good outsider" means outsider who is good, or outsider with the [good] subtype...

Osirion ***

Jiggy wrote:
Sapphire Onion wrote:
And of course you can get an outsider (good) slaying arrow.
The slaying arrow would be an example of referring to the [good] subtype rather than the good alignment.

It's the same list that is used for favored enemy. Can you have a favored enemy that includes Aasimars or Tieflings?

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Sapphire Onion wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Sapphire Onion wrote:
And of course you can get an outsider (good) slaying arrow.
The slaying arrow would be an example of referring to the [good] subtype rather than the good alignment.
It's the same list that is used for favored enemy. Can you have a favored enemy that includes Aasimars or Tieflings?

Yes. The Ranger's favored enemy table includes nine different subtypes of outsiders. Tieflings and aasimar have the [native] subtype, as seen in their race write-ups in the bestiary, ARG, and other places.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Sapphire Onion wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Sapphire Onion wrote:
And of course you can get an outsider (good) slaying arrow.
The slaying arrow would be an example of referring to the [good] subtype rather than the good alignment.
It's the same list that is used for favored enemy. Can you have a favored enemy that includes Aasimars or Tieflings?

How about favored enemy native outsider? It should be a choice though it's not explicitly mentioned in the ranger list (neither are some humanoid subtypes).

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Dylos wrote:
How about favored enemy native outsider? It should be a choice though it's not explicitly mentioned in the ranger list (neither are some humanoid subtypes).

Um, it is explicitly mentioned in the ranger list. I just checked.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Dylos wrote:
How about favored enemy native outsider? It should be a choice though it's not explicitly mentioned in the ranger list (neither are some humanoid subtypes).
Um, it is explicitly mentioned in the ranger list. I just checked.

So it is, I must have glanced over it.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Holy/Unholy water damage evil/good aligned outsiders, respectfully, as if it were a flask of acid - this is regardless of alignment subtype.

PFSRD wrote:

Chaotic Subtype

This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the chaotic-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have chaotic alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature had a chaotic alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the chaotic subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are chaotically aligned.

Emphasis mine. Chaotic is just an example; the wording stays the same for each alignment subtype.

Thus, if a Demon somehow became good-aligned it would ping as both evil and good, and be affected harmfully by both holy & unholy water.

Grand Lodge

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
I've been toying with a fetchling shadowdancer or an ifrit oracle of flame
Me too! (with tiefling instead of fetchling)

Tieflings are awesome. Just saying. :D


Any Dev comment as to whether Unholy Blight and such abilities affect a Tiefling Paladin as a 'good outsider' or as a 'good character'?

** RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Purplefixer wrote:
Any Dev comment as to whether Unholy Blight and such abilities affect a Tiefling Paladin as a 'good outsider' or as a 'good character'?

"Good outsider" refers to outsiders with the "Good" subtype, not outsiders who just happen to be good-aligned.

Osirion **** Venture-Lieutenant, Colorado—Denver aka Rusty Ironpants

Kyle Baird wrote:
FWIW, ifrit can use Efreeti Magic to enlarge person once a day.

Efreeti Magic says you can cast it on "other Ifrit", correct? So no casting it on yourself?

Seems no bueno for a PC - since there will not be many other Ifrits around.

Edit- just re-read the ability. You can cast on humanoids as normal or on other Ifrits but not on yourself.

PRD wrote:
Efreeti Magic: Some ifrits inherit an efreeti ancestor's ability to magically change a creature's size. They can cast either enlarge person or reduce person (the ifrit chooses when using this ability) once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equals the ifrit's level). The ifrit can use this ability to affect other ifrits as though they were humanoid creatures. This racial trait replaces the spell-like ability racial trait.

Cheliax **** Venture-Lieutenant, England—Sheffield aka Ninjaiguana.

RainyDayNinja wrote:
Purplefixer wrote:
Any Dev comment as to whether Unholy Blight and such abilities affect a Tiefling Paladin as a 'good outsider' or as a 'good character'?
"Good outsider" refers to outsiders with the "Good" subtype, not outsiders who just happen to be good-aligned.

From what Justin quoted above regarding alignment subtypes, it would seem to imply that both the outsider's actual alignment and any alignment subtypes would apply.

So a CG Pit Fiend would be affected as a Chaotic, Good, Lawful and Evil outsider by any effect which targeted outsiders of a specific alignment. A LN Tiefling would be affected as a Lawful and Native outsider. And so on.

If there was overlap, I'd say always choose the result that's worst for the outsider - alignment subtypes appear to be a penalty rather than a boon.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Pete Pollard wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
Purplefixer wrote:
Any Dev comment as to whether Unholy Blight and such abilities affect a Tiefling Paladin as a 'good outsider' or as a 'good character'?
"Good outsider" refers to outsiders with the "Good" subtype, not outsiders who just happen to be good-aligned.

From what Justin quoted above regarding alignment subtypes, it would seem to imply that both the outsider's actual alignment and any alignment subtypes would apply.

So a CG Pit Fiend would be affected as a Chaotic, Good, Lawful and Evil outsider by any effect which targeted outsiders of a specific alignment. A LN Tiefling would be affected as a Lawful and Native outsider. And so on.

If there was overlap, I'd say always choose the result that's worst for the outsider - alignment subtypes appear to be a penalty rather than a boon.

But what's that got to do with whether a CL 8 holy smite deals 4d8 or 8d6 damage? I'll see if I can dig up a link, but I recall it being confirmed somewhere that when a spell/effect refers to an "evil outsider" it's referring to subtypes rather than alignments (which in no way conflicts with the cited rule).

Cheliax **** Venture-Lieutenant, England—Sheffield aka Ninjaiguana.

Jiggy wrote:
Pete Pollard wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
Purplefixer wrote:
Any Dev comment as to whether Unholy Blight and such abilities affect a Tiefling Paladin as a 'good outsider' or as a 'good character'?
"Good outsider" refers to outsiders with the "Good" subtype, not outsiders who just happen to be good-aligned.

From what Justin quoted above regarding alignment subtypes, it would seem to imply that both the outsider's actual alignment and any alignment subtypes would apply.

So a CG Pit Fiend would be affected as a Chaotic, Good, Lawful and Evil outsider by any effect which targeted outsiders of a specific alignment. A LN Tiefling would be affected as a Lawful and Native outsider. And so on.

If there was overlap, I'd say always choose the result that's worst for the outsider - alignment subtypes appear to be a penalty rather than a boon.

But what's that got to do with whether a CL 8 holy smite deals 4d8 or 8d6 damage? I'll see if I can dig up a link, but I recall it being confirmed somewhere that when a spell/effect refers to an "evil outsider" it's referring to subtypes rather than alignments (which in no way conflicts with the cited rule).

I'd like to see that link if you can find it, since the wording of alignment subtypes seems to go the other way.

Subtypes say ' Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature had a <XXX> alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment.'

So subtypes reference alignment rules for how they work; they're a rider on the creature's actual alignment. This means that if someone has favoured enemy evil outsider, it works on a NE Tiefling, a LE aasimar, and a LN balor equally well. From the way things are worded, I see no reason for anyone to look at ranger favoured enemy, bane weaponry or similar effects and say 'Oh, it must be referring to alignment subtype rather than actual alignment'.

This is relevant to the detecting aasimars and tieflings with detect <alignment> mentioned upthread, too - do you think that works on actual alignment or alignment subtype?

As for the holy smite, my post infers the latter of 8d6 damage, as it's the 'worst result' for the outsider in question.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Well, looks like I must have mis-remembered (or my search fu is weak today). I couldn't find anything backing up my position that "evil outsider" meant "outsider with the evil subtype", so I guess I've gotta change positions now. Good to know!

Also means I've got to start looking really closely at any given effect to see whether or not it specifically mentions subtypes...

Cheliax **** Venture-Lieutenant, England—Sheffield aka Ninjaiguana.

Jiggy wrote:

Well, looks like I must have mis-remembered (or my search fu is weak today). I couldn't find anything backing up my position that "evil outsider" meant "outsider with the evil subtype", so I guess I've gotta change positions now. Good to know!

Also means I've got to start looking really closely at any given effect to see whether or not it specifically mentions subtypes...

Yeah, I agree that careful reading of the wording on any given effect is key.

If you do come across a ruling contradicting my position, please do let me know so I can make the necessary adjustments when I GM!

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Also means I've got to start looking really closely at any given effect to see whether or not it specifically mentions subtypes...

Like smite evil.

Shadow Lodge ** Venture-Lieutenant, Oregon—Eugene aka SCPRedMage

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
If somehow a druid got rejuvenate eidolon added to her druid spell list, yeah, that's exactly what Share Spells allows.

Incorrect. Share Spells only allows the caster to ignore creature type restrictions, and "eidolon" is not a "creature type". "Animal" is a creature type, as is "outsider" or "undead". "Eidolon" is not, and neither is "animal companion" or "familiar".

As rejuvenate eidolon has a restriction that is NOT a creature type restriction, a hypothetical druid who can cast it as a druid spell would still NOT be able to cast it upon his animal companion. Likewise, they would not be able to cast a hypothetical spell that can only target guys named "Steve" on their animal companion (unless they named their companion Steve).

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