Abstract Wealth System


Homebrew and House Rules

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Many games have an abstract wealth system, wherein personal wealth is a rating that is rolled for the acquisition of necessary gear or luxuries. I'd like to work on a rule like that for Pathfinder, because I personally find tracking gold to be tedious.

Do you know of any really great systems from other games?

What special considerations might be made for Pathfinder?

Has anyone already devised a system like this that I could use?

I ask once more, dear homebrew forum, that we clasp hands and plunge headlong into the wine-dark sea of rules, together!


My first impulse is to have a "Haggle" skill, that more or less replaces the Appraise skill, but is Cha-based. When you wished to purchase an item, you'd have to roll this skill against a DC determined by the value of the item. Failure means you can't afford the item, failure by 5 or more points means that you didn't have as much money as you thought you did and you take a temporary -1 debt penalty to future rolls.

Each encounter you loot significant treasure from gives you a +1 cash bonus to a purchase. Once used, this bonus is gone. Dragon hoards and the like would grant an even larger bonus.

Practicing a craft or profession can give you a consistent cash bonus by rolling against specific DCs. DC 15 and a week's work will provide a +1 cash bonus.

Any cash bonus acquired can be used to pay off debt penalties.

No much, but it's a start!


I'm really not sure what you mean in your first sentence. Could you clarify at all?


For instance, in Vampire: The Masquerade 2nd edition (way back when) they have a "Resources" rating that you roll to acquire certain things when you need them.

Burning Wheel also has a more elaborate system that involves debts, cash, and funds, but is ultimately the same. Rather than tracking every single GP, you have a rating representing how wealthy you are, which you roll when you want to find new things.


My first inclination is to create a new skill, Haggling (Cha).

You roll Haggling when you want to acquire a new item. The DC is based on the perceived value of the item. If you succeed at the roll, you acquire the item. If you fail you can't acquire the item, and if you fail by 5 or more points, you had less money than you thought you did and you are taxed. Being taxed is a -2 penalty on all future Haggle rolls.

Every significant encounter you loot gives you a +1 cash bonus. Especially wealthy encounters like a dragon's hoard could give even larger bonuses. Cash is good for a single purchase, and then it's gone.

You could conceivably use Profession or Craft to get a cash bonus as well.

It's far from perfect, but it's a start.


Hmmm okay well you could tie the rating to level which would be the easiest and then you could make a d100 roll + some portion of your rating versus a mod of I dunno 0+20 per enhancement mod or maybe +10 per 1000gp base price? I don't really know if it would simplify the system at all though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Swordbearer had an even more feudal appropriate system.

The game did not use cash. It used a trait called social standing. You could afford an item, or you could not, depending on what your social standing was. Standing could be raised by finding a great treasure, seizing a large amount of productive land, or lowered by commensurate reversals.


The issue that you might face is that gold is used as an alternate form of xp that can be traded for in game advantage.

If gold were not able to buy effective - or at least magical - items you might have a shot at it.

The fact that the same resource that buys your paladin a suit of +5 full plate also buys a mug of ale means that accounting becomes important.

There is a system in the CRB as I recall that suggests paying a monthly value that then pays all the incidental costs up to a certain 'lifestyle' level.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

d20 modern had an abstract wealth system that ported into the more fantasy based True20 by Green Ronin. Perhaps that's what you're looking for? It also appeared in Mutants and Masterminds.


gnomersy wrote:
Hmmm okay well you could tie the rating to level which would be the easiest and then you could make a d100 roll + some portion of your rating versus a mod of I dunno 0+20 per enhancement mod or maybe +10 per 1000gp base price? I don't really know if it would simplify the system at all though.

One thing I'd like to avoid is GP value lookups. It sounds crazy, I know, but that's what barter systems are all about.

I'd like to have some general comparative categories of value — just DCs for some of the most well known items in the game world, the curative potion, the flying carpet, the deck of many things — and then all other items will have DC set by comparison. That will mirror the barter system in a fun way. Is a cloak of the bat worth a flying carpet? Hell no.

The game does make assumptions about wealth. I am probably going to use a version of Ashiel's suggestion in the "My solution to the Christmas Tree Effect" thread, where most of the essential mechanical bonuses are automatic instead of coming from gear. So when I discuss this rule, I'm assuming the PCs' stat-boost, enhancement and resistance bonuses are all taken care of. What's left over is the whimsical stuff.

I'd considered a system like you have up the quote, but decided against using the GP value to determine the DC. Looking up GP values is annoying, they're not nearly as memorable as the item effects. Also, not having a rigid formula allows me, the GM, to set the availability of items based on other factors, which is always a good thing.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
d20 modern had an abstract wealth system that ported into the more fantasy based True20 by Green Ronin. Perhaps that's what you're looking for? It also appeared in Mutants and Masterminds.

I'll look into that right now, thanks DM! Ever seen it applied to an item-rich world like PF?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I haven't, but I think putting items into "expense tiers" (made even easier thanks to Ultimate Equipment's breakdowns) might work. Then you just need to sort out average Wealth Bonus by Level. At the end of each adventure the party loots/is rewarded enough to put them at that Wealth Bonus.

I think some up-front work will save a lot of bookkeeping down the line.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I haven't, but I think putting items into "expense tiers" (made even easier thanks to Ultimate Equipment's breakdowns) might work. Then you just need to sort out average Wealth Bonus by Level. At the end of each adventure the party loots/is rewarded enough to put them at that Wealth Bonus.

I think some up-front work will save a lot of bookkeeping down the line.

Awesome. I hope you can stick around and help!

T20's Wealth system looks like a great basis. What are the Tiers from Ultimate Equipment?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm just looking at the magic item tables:

Lesser Minor
Greater Minor
Lesser Medium
Greater Medium
Lesser Major
Greater Major

This is from the previews by the by, I think everything is divvied up that way. I'm not a super great math guy, but I've often considered replacing the GP system with a wealth system. But it is hard to fight tradition and the visceral thrill of finding a big pile of money.


Beaten to the punch by DM_aka_Dudemeister. I was going to suggest Blue Rose's wealth system, which is a derivative of the True20 system.


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Yep. I've adapted it to my personal houserules doc. I'm gonna take it for a test drive, and I'll post it back here once I've got some playtesting done.

The game will be Legacy of Fire, so if Katapesh doesn't break it, nothing can!

Don't wait on my account, though, post some more ideas if you've got them!


I tried the D20 modern abstract wealth system and, in the end, wasn't a fan.

I prefer shopping to be a situation for RP, while I found the wealth system really made shopping a mechanical exercise.

But some may like it, I did try it for a reason.


I'm not against the status quo, and a little RP in the GP system can be fun. It's just gotten a bit old to me. We'll see how it goes.


Just remember it may require some decently heavy houseruling since economies in fantasy worlds rarely line up perfectly with ones in our world.

For example, the D20 modern system has systems related to debt, something easily acquired in the modern world, where as debt and money loaning was not as ubiquitous in the middle ages.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Fleshgrinder wrote:

I tried the D20 modern abstract wealth system and, in the end, wasn't a fan.

I prefer shopping to be a situation for RP, while I found the wealth system really made shopping a mechanical exercise.

But some may like it, I did try it for a reason.

That may be so but in my games shopping rarely becomes an RP exercise. It usually gets handled between sessions and occasionally in game when PCs need a certain weapon property to deal with a problem. So abstracting that wouldn't really change anything for my games. Since if a player is looking for something specific I can still roll the 75% chance and if it's there the Player can go out and purchase it.

If players insist on haggling, then its a straight up DC 15 Appraise or Diplomacy check (with appropriate RP/description) to reduce the purchase DC by 1, and reducing it by a further 1 for every 5 points you beat the DC.
PCs can take 10 on Wealth checks, and can even take 20 but take a hit to their overall Wealth bonus if they do. I think it can work and I hope it works out for Evil Lincoln because then I might steal it for my next campaign.


Ah, see, my shops all generally have names, and NPCs who run them, and little jobs those NPCs may need done.

So shopping doesn't just become RP for haggling, it can lead to adventures, other jobs, or just hilarity.

That's why the wealth system didn't work well for me.

I even roll up my shop's stock before hand.


I'd like to point out that the RP level of a commercial transaction has almost nothing to do with mechanics, and everything to do with GM imagination and preparation.


Cubicle 7's The One Ring runs on an abstract wealth system. I haven't yet decided if its a brilliant thing or a boring thing... At any case it works for the setting (Tolkien's Middle Earth).

Characters are appointed a standard of living according to their culture, ranging from frugal (which is to say can't afford much), martial (can at least afford the necessities of war), prosperous (can live comfortably) and rich (can afford the best). Cultural standards of living work both ways, also giving hints to what the society can offer to a traveler.

Heroes then collect treasure points throughout their adventures, allowing their characters to "purchase" higher standards of living and "buying" their personal standing abroad or within their society.

That system doesn't allow you to purchase what would be the equivalent of magical weapons and armours, but I don't see why it couldn't in a more Pathfinder-ized version. This could go well with a mojo based wealth-by-level system like Kirth's.

The advantage of a precise wealth system is that it allows somewhat expensive consumables like potions and other spells-in-a-can. Potions are not expensive enough to forbid them based on your wealth but yet too expensive and valuable to allow any number of any type for the richest characters.


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My Legacy of Fire Campaign is rolling again, and damn if I wasn't ambushed by my original draft of the Abstract Wealth rules!

I've learned a lot in the last few sessions of playtesting.

------

Abstract Wealth
Each PC has a Wealth bonus that reflects their buying power. To purchase something, make a Wealth check against the Purchase DC.

Table — Suggested Purchase DCs
Concrete Value...Purchase DC...Min. Wealth...Settlement
Any Copper..1...1
Any Silver....2...1
1 GP............3...1
10 GP..........4...1
50 GP..........5...2...Thorp
200 GP........8...2...Hamlet
500 GP......10...3...Village
1,000 GP...15...4...Small Town
2,000 GP...20...5...Large Town
4,000 GP...25...6...Small City
8,000 GP...30...10...Large City
16,000 GP...35...15...Metropolis
32,000 GP...40...20
64,000 GP...45...25
128,000 GP...50...30

Success — Within Your Means
If you buy an item with a Purchase DC less than or equal to your Wealth bonus, you acquire the item without any significant burden on your treasury.

Success — Beyond Your Means
If you buy an item with a Purchase DC higher than your current Wealth bonus, your Wealth bonus decreases by one point.You lose an additional point for every five points of difference between the Purchase DC and your Wealth bonus. If purchasing an item beyond your means would result in a Wealth score of zero of less, you can’t afford the item.

Failure
A roll of a natural one is always a failure to purchase the desired item, even if your wealth check result exceeds the DC. If you fail a wealth check, you either can’t find or can’t afford the item during that phase. You can try again if you fail a Wealth check, but this requires an additional phase (see below).

Time Spent Shopping
Making a Wealth check requires at least one shopping phase (about 6 hours), and possibly more if you are far from a vendor. For every 5 points the Purchase DC exceeds your current wealth, add another phase to the search time to represent the rarity of the purchase.

You may group up to three similar purchases (3 scrolls or 3 potions, etc) into a single phase, provided the Purchase DC for each is below your current wealth bonus.

You can take 10 or take 20 when making a Wealth check. Taking 20 requires twenty Phases, or about 1 week of full-time effort as you shop around for the best price.

You can attempt to aid another (DC 10) to help someone else purchase an item. If the attempt is successful, you provide the purchaser with a +2 bonus on the Wealth check. If you aid a Wealth check for an item with a Purchase DC higher than your current Wealth bonus, it decreases as normal.

Selling Items
Many durable goods, can be sold at full value. The selling character gets a bonus to their Wealth equal to ⅕ the difference between their current Wealth and the sale item’s Purchase DC. Significant wear and tear or objects normally frowned upon for resale lower the Purchase DC by 5.

If you sell something with a sale value less than or equal to your current Wealth score you gain nothing; the income from the sale is negligible compared to your holdings.

-----

As usual, I'm glad to hear any feedback!


How do you determine a character's Wealth score? Does it start at 1, and then increase through sale of items (whereby gold is an "automatic sale")?

This looks like a pretty interesting idea. I like how time is an explicit cost. I haven't seen other systems' implementations, and this being my first view into abstract wealth, looks kind of cool. I'm curious to read subjective anecdotal reports of how this is playing out in your game.


We're trying not to rely on the chart too much. After a while you start thinking in DCs instead of GPs, and that's the best way to do it. You can estimate and haggle, etc.

It's a little early to start pinning down things like starting cash (my party is 6th level, Wealth +12), but I'd say start at Wealth +1. You guessed exactly right.

...or roll GP and see what comes up on the chart. A rich starting PC might have a +5 or +6. I see starting gear as sort of a "different system" though, so I'm not too sure how that ought to work.

Anyway, if you're really jonesin' for an Abstract Wealth system, let's collaborate!


Unfortunately, I won't be of much help in a collaboration. I don't get to play (and I'll be honest, choose not to play them due to time, money, and effort) a wide variety of systems, so something like this is just neat, to me. In a year, if I GM again (current game coming close to closing; I won't GM the next one, but maybe the next), I might remember this system and see if you posted results, and I can perhaps contribute ideas, but I can't do trials of anything.

On that note, what you have posted looks solid, and I thus have nothing to offer at present, except maybe one little thing, regarding starting gear. In an abstract system, a PC should simply start out with appropriate gear, and a sort of "gut check" should determine whether it's passable or not.

Alternatively, maybe use the regular GP rules just for starting out, then switch over to the abstract system once the game begins. This could also apply to replacement characters, using WBL and gold values. Time is a major purchasing resource in this scheme (did I mention how much I really like that?), so how much time did the new character spend accumulating equipment? That is a difficult question to answer. It's a largely "offline" effort to make a character, so going back to gold for a bit shouldn't be too jarring. It's not elegant, though.


Bump!


how do you handle wealth raises? I realize that if you sell something with a DC 5 higher you get +1 wealth but what if you sell something for 1 wealth higher? Do you record the +.2 but it will not get a mechanical effect until do this 5 times?

This could be significant because the growth rate is not linear so that means that 5 DC 11 items cost less then 1 DC 15 item.


I have not been giving fractional wealth in my playtest, although you could and that's a fine idea.

One of the intended features of this version is to eliminate the need for liquidating loot. My players have only encountered two items so far that they deemed worth selling off, and they actually kept one of those anyway.

But the way my playtest version differs from normal GP is that unless something is considerably more valuable than the rest of your stuff, it's not going to change your general buying power.

When the players find a treasure hoard or other obvious source of money, I don't make them sell it back. Rather, I just give them a one-time wealth award (both times it has been 4 points, but it could be anything) to represent the increased buying power.

I suppose you could introduce fractional wealth points to try and make it track better with the GP system, but then you might be better off going back to GP. Abstract wealth is meant to reduce these transactions to "This is how wealthy you are. This is how much that costs. Can you afford it? How wealthy are you afterward?"

It's not a system I would ever want to use with players who were inclined to abuse it and wring every possible ounce of power from their wealth rating.


This looks similar to the wealth system of D20 Modern.

So on the topic of wealth rewards, how do you handle quest rewards? Are they flat increases or based on the individual character's current wealth?

For example, a quest rewards the players with a value of 4 wealth. Player A has 5 wealth, Player B has 3 wealth, and Player C has 4 wealth.

Does:

Only Player B receive an increase in wealth because he is below 4. If so, does that mean Player A loses wealth because the reward does not allow him to keep up with his current lifestyle?

or

The reward simply increases everyone's wealth by 4 points?


Great question! I will mull it over a bit. Do you have a suggestion as to which would be better and why?


I suppose it depends on how you view the career of an adventurer; is it a lifestyle where wealth is a constant fluctuation of purchasing, selling, repairing, quest rewards/bounties, room-and-board, eating expenses, etc.? Or is it a profession with only the goal to make gold pieces, stockpiling until a purchase is made?

With the latter, Wealth just becomes another form of currency, which makes sense for the setting and mindset of Pathfinder and most all roleplaying games. This system, aside from gold-tracking, is the easiest to deal with in a d20 system.

Designing the system as a lifestyle system is completely justifiable as well, but breaks the mold that most fantasy RPG fans have become accustomed to.


Great input.

I suppose I was going for more of a lifestyle system, since that would be very different from the RAW GP method. I'm house ruling mainly for variety these days.

You make both options sound appealing, I'll have to chew on it as I continue to playtest.


I just made it a level dependent feature. At third level you get X gold, bring your character in line with that the same as a fort save or anything else. Everything else is just flavor that won't up your gear in a meaningful way (owning bars or giving to the poor or whatever).


dunelord3001 wrote:
I just made it a level dependent feature. At third level you get X gold, bring your character in line with that the same as a fort save or anything else. Everything else is just flavor that won't up your gear in a meaningful way (owning bars or giving to the poor or whatever).

An admirable approach. Certainly balances against CR and wealth by level assumptions. If CR metrics are a priority in your campaign, that's the way to do it.

Abstract wealth allows you to deviate from CR and have poor or rich players... that's something I'm really interested in; wealth as a campaign variable.

Otherwise I would totally be doing it your way. Kirthfinder has a "mojo" system that is similar.


It is just the quickest way to do things, and real world time is the most limited RPG resource. If you want to do all the work of rich or poor players, and they want to do it, you can just do a percentage of X, although you have to start at almost the ground up to really do poor players.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
d20 modern had an abstract wealth system that ported into the more fantasy based True20 by Green Ronin. Perhaps that's what you're looking for? It also appeared in Mutants and Masterminds.
I'll look into that right now, thanks DM! Ever seen it applied to an item-rich world like PF?

I have. To suggest that it sucked monkey testicles is to insult the experience that is sucking monkey testicles.

Seriously, it's way to easy to break. The problem is that wealth is quadratic; a +1 to wealth can be an extra five silver pieces or five CoDzillion gold pieces. (A CoDzillion, of course, is a one followed by a buffed high-level cleric. Or druid. Like CoDzilla, that +1 will break your game.)

Specifically, it's way too easy to buy something and bankrupt yourself, collect cans until you've recovered a pathetically small amount of your wealth, and then sell that object to recover all your wealth and more. I think it took someone two round trips until his fifth level character had a +6 belt of all physical stats and a bag of chips.


And they break pretty easy the other way; I had a PC who put a fair amount of resources into it and all but went broke buying a used car.


Bumpin - this is relevant to my interests. How is it going EL?


My test campaign has been on hiatus due to a player's new paternal responsibilities. Resumes Nov 24th.

Until I have a chance to start a new campaign with this rule, I'm not going to be getting very good playtest data. If we were using GP for my Legacy of Fire campaign, they'd be 4-5 levels over WBL, and that's exactly how I wanted it. If you can't have crazy wondrous items in that AP, when is the time?

(My LoF Campaign also uses enhancement bonuses by level, so there is no risk of players dumping all that extra cash into weapon and stat enhancements that might irretrievably harm the game. Lots of weirdo items, capes and the like.)

So, not a lot of developments here. In my pantheon of house rules, this is really the black sheep; it doesn't even try to leave the status quo intact, and it requires extreme GM involvement to work at all.

That said, it has worked really well for me. It's pretty easy to decide on something the players should be able to afford or not afford, check their wealth, and reward or starve them with treasure as needed. And that's what I do for all my traditional GP campaigns as well, but here the math is just a heck of a lot simpler.

Verdant Wheel

Any updates here?

I'm at the precipice of diverging from traditional accounting, and while I think the above system (post #24) looks sound in theory, am looking for field reports to confirm or deny if the DM work to implement the system pays out in either less time spent bookkeeping or fun factor (or both - or neither).

cheers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Evil Lincoln wrote:

Many games have an abstract wealth system, wherein personal wealth is a rating that is rolled for the acquisition of necessary gear or luxuries. I'd like to work on a rule like that for Pathfinder, because I personally find tracking gold to be tedious.

Do you know of any really great systems from other games?

The system you're looking for is from Swordbearer.


Dotting for interest, albeit perhaps a different interest than others here.

Notably, I've been looking for some kind of system that can handle non-standard wealth systems in rpgs (ie, not the usual gold-based system, or even a dollar system). In particular, I'm looking for something that could be used for pre-economic systems, or prehistoric settings where trade is mostly a barter/haggle system, as opposed to coin-based. Even better, something that could be used cross-economically, although that's far more fraught with issues.

One thing that occurs to me might be a possible (partial?) solution for the latter, if using the Wealth system as described here, might be to give a penalty to Wealth bonus when attempting to purchase things from a different form of economy.

Example, a primitive tribesman, very influential in his own homeland (+8 Wealth bonus), might suffer a -2 penalty to his Wealth bonus when attempting to make a purchase in the neighboring bronze-age society.

This cross-tier penalty would work both ways (ie, the Bronze Ager would have the same problem trying to barter with the tribesmen), so as not to be an unfair advantage to any certain group, and would simply be reflective of something abstract like one group not possessing the same sorts of items that would appeal to the other (ie, tribesman doesn't have cut gems, but only raw. Bronze ager has unfamiliar weaponry. Etc.)


Cthulhudrew wrote:

Dotting for interest, albeit perhaps a different interest than others here.

Notably, I've been looking for some kind of system that can handle non-standard wealth systems in rpgs (ie, not the usual gold-based system, or even a dollar system). In particular, I'm looking for something that could be used for pre-economic systems, or prehistoric settings where trade is mostly a barter/haggle system, as opposed to coin-based. Even better, something that could be used cross-economically, although that's far more fraught with issues.

Well, wealth isn't really a thing in that sort of system. Control of natural resources and power over others, including military strength, would be what determines what you can get from who. The "price" of things would be relative to everything about both you and the person you're trading with.


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Well, wealth isn't really a thing in that sort of system. Control of natural resources and power over others, including military strength, would be what determines what you can get from who. The "price" of things would be relative to everything about both you and the person you're trading with.

True, but that makes running a campaign somewhat difficult. Which is why i'm trying to find something a little more abstract that can help smooth things over without making it too lengthy or difficult.


I don't think there's a system that can help with that.

Bob the farmer needs medical help for his sick daughter. The 'price' of that is whatever the old shaman woman wants at the time, which might be any shiny gems he has because she likes the look of them, or it might be a favor to be collected at a later date. If it were anyone else, she would demand a portion of his crop this season, but because Bob has his family's heirloom wardrum, she demands that for her help. It might also cost absolutely nothing because she's a good person.

There is no way to systematize this unless you have a random want generator that includes every good/service in existence.

Verdant Wheel

Are you kidding me? This is a perfect system for that!

Wealth = Prestige.

Prestige will have a cultural component, but if you define it in terms of traits (large chin, two-color eyes, birthmark) and deeds (killed the most deer before winter, has the most children, is the oldest), you have your cross-cultural indexing begun.


I'd be really interested in that sort of wealth system.


Here's a case where the wealth by level table could help, because the problem is that items in Pathfinder are "leveled by price"... and assigning some other variable to them - I don't wanna do.

Look up the price of the item you are trying to buy and find the ratio of that price to your current wealth by level.

Then make a table of ratios to set the DC for "Resources". You can either make this a skill or make it a separate stat that the DM can modify (after that last hoard, everyone gets a +4 to their next resources roll! Gee, merchants have heard that fire was all your fault, take a -2 to resource checks until you've made 3 successful purchases, etc.).

-cs

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