Ideal RotR party of five

[uriel222]

I have a little problem, and I'm hoping the community can help.

This fall, I'm going to be running RotR for a new group, and I'm pulling out all the stops. I'm getting the Deluxe Anniversary adventure, all the related campaign books, and all the Game Mastery material for this that I can afford.

One stumbling block I'm having is that while the group has played RPGs before, they haven't played Pathfinder before much. They know the rules well enough that I'm skipping the Beginner Box route, but since they are more into the story than the game aspects, I think they'd benefit from some pre-generated characters, so we can just jump into the game.

The problem I'm having is what to make? What would be an "ideal" party of five for RotR? (Though since one player is one the fence, it might end up as four).

The only restriction is one player has only played halfling rogues before, and doesn't want to this time.

So, any advice? I'd like the characters to a) fit the themes of the AP; b) have a good reason for being in Sandpoint to start with, and; c) cover all the bases as a team.

So, based on your collective experience with the AP, what would you suggest?

Thanks!

[Humphrey Boggard]

The "ideal" party is comprised of characters that the players will have fun playing. Part of this will be having a party that can deal with the different challenges of the AP and part of it will be the connection they have with their characters. Instead of creating characters for them I would suggest having a session where you and the party meet to discuss the characters they would like to play and what roles each character will fill.

A sample party of five (avoiding almost entirely the usual four square of Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Cleric):

Human Samurai - melee and mounted brute. Can take damage and deal it out on foot or horseback.
Human Ranger - switch-hitter build. Ranged damage and scouting skills.
Halfling Witch - battlefield control and occasional blasting with a bit of healing.
Dwarven Cleric - divine magic (buffing, healing) and melee combat.
Half-Orc Inquisitor - Intimidator + melee damage and divine support.

edit: Also have a look at the RotRL player's guide (that you can get for free from paizo.com).

[GeraintElberion]

Humphrey Boggard wrote:

Human Samurai - melee and mounted brute. Can take damage and deal it out on foot or horseback.
Human Ranger - switch-hitter build. Ranged damage and scouting skills.
Halfling Witch - battlefield control and occasional blasting with a bit of healing.
Dwarven Cleric - divine magic (buffing, healing) and melee combat.
Half-Orc Inquisitor - Intimidator + melee damage and divine support.

Not what I would advise

Giving advanced classes to new players is a bad idea.
Also, you're going to get very little play out of mounted combat in this AP.

These are my recommendations...

Let your players create their characters with you, at the first get-together.

Let them read the guide beforehand and then create characters together.

Why? Because if you're pulling out all of the stops to make it the best adventure then you shouldn't deny your players one of the great pleasures of PathfinderRPG, character creation.

Your presence will allow you to guide them into a cohesive, coherent group while still granting them that pleasure.

[uriel222]

Thanks Humphrey and Geraint.

I wasn't quite clear about something: The players WANT pre-gens, for two reasons:

First, they are coming from more "story-based" games, and would like to have a strong character backgrounds to jump into. Since they don't know anything about Golarion, they would rather learn about the world as they go, rather than having to read more than the Primer and Player's Guide (assuming I can get them to read even that).

Second, I don't want to spend the first session mired in option paralysis. It takes A LOT to walk new players through character creation, and while I'm more than willing to do it (and have in the past), they would prefer to just jump in media res.

Thanks, though. You both make strong arguments against pre-gens, and normally I'd agree with you.

[Humphrey Boggard]

@GeraintElberion - I agree, the inquisitor will be a bit much for a new player. I recommend the samurai though - it's a simple class to build with class abilities that mitigate the usual problems of a fighter (few skill points, low will save). Mechanically, they're no more complicated than a Paladin but without the terrible penalties for violating the code of conduct (at worst you end up a ronin, which is still pretty good).

@Uriel222 - Okay, here's my revised list

Human Fighter - Son of an old friend of Belor Hemlock (melee specialist, 2 handed weapon, power attack + iron will)
Elven Ranger - Shalelu Andosan's rebellious niece (archery specialist)
Elven Wizard - interested in researching the remains of the ancient Thassalonian empire, childhood friend of the ranger (battlefield control)
Dwarven Cleric - young brewer looking to find the finest ingredients for a beer that will bring honor to his ancestors (support and melee tanking).
Bard - also interested in the Thassalonians but keeps more contemporary interests as well (support and archery, skills)

If you feel up to it replace the fighter with a samurai (friend of the Kaijitsu family, suitor to Ameiko) or the wizard with a witch (country bumpkin with a pig familiar, mechanically equivalent to the rat familiar).

[powell01]

Personally I would suggest the following if you want a core group of base classes that synergise well,

Everyone takes the Lookout teamwork feat
Diviner wizard for act in the suprise round, specialise in battlefield control spells. ( everybody gets it from lookout);
Paladin Divine hunter archetype for Ranged combat;
Bandit archetype rogue, can cover traps and skill monkey role (gets full action in suprise round);
Lorewarden archetype fighter with a reach weapon for cl;ose in control, trips etc;
Aasimar Songhealer and soundstriker archetype bard for buffs and healing or a cleric.

[GeraintElberion]

Humphrey Boggard wrote:

@GeraintElberion - I agree, the inquisitor will be a bit much for a new player. I recommend the samurai though - it's a simple class to build with class abilities that mitigate the usual problems of a fighter (few skill points, low will save). Mechanically, they're no more complicated than a Paladin but without the terrible penalties for violating the code of conduct (at worst you end up a ronin, which is still pretty good).

@Uriel222 - Okay, here's my revised list

Human Fighter - Son of an old friend of Belor Hemlock (melee specialist, 2 handed weapon, power attack + iron will)
Elven Ranger - Shalelu Andosan's rebellious niece (archery specialist)
Elven Wizard - interested in researching the remains of the ancient Thassalonian empire, childhood friend of the ranger (battlefield control)
Dwarven Cleric - young brewer looking to find the finest ingredients for a beer that will bring honor to his ancestors (support and melee tanking).
Bard - also interested in the Thassalonians but keeps more contemporary interests as well (support and archery, skills)

If you feel up to it replace the fighter with a samurai (friend of the Kaijitsu family, suitor to Ameiko) or the wizard with a witch (country bumpkin with a pig familiar, mechanically equivalent to the rat familiar).

I like that list,maybe go with a lorewarden fighter to give more skills.

The Bard might benefit from being a gnome: the whole first-world+bleaching thing is a cool, unique Golarion thing that some RP fans could really get stuck into. Make him/her flighty enough and they could be your fifth character who might leave the game.

Of all the APs, this is probably the one which needs a rogue the least so having a ranger is good and tie-in with Shalelu will help.

One change, make one of those characters a local Varisian (the bard?) who is interested simply in defending his community. Sandpoint is a really rich roleplaying environment and it is useful to have a character with instant affection for NPCs who the locals can say 'hi' to.

I played a Varisian sorcerer who regularly visited his aunt in Sandpoint: very helpful to everyone else who was a wanderer from far away.

[Twigs]

uriel222 wrote:

This fall, I'm going to be running RotR for a new group, and I'm pulling out all the stops. I'm getting the Deluxe Anniversary adventure, all the related campaign books, and all the Game Mastery material for this that I can afford.

That's one lucky group!

I've actually given the whole pregen thing a lot of thought, but unfortunately I've never had a group that wants to roll with it. I honestly dont know why more games don't do it. Just how inexperienced are this group? Given the very "classic" feel of this adventure path it'd be hard to go wrong with a fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard setup, and I'd propose a ranger as the fifth man. There were a lot of great posts in this thread on the topic (I agree with Greycloak. And myself, naturally.) In short: a high AC fighter (quite possibly a dwarf, for that awesomely powerful +4 to AC that will come up a lot), somebody who can deal with giants (again, maybe a dwarf), a spellbook/scroll using wizard (not sure if Sorcerers can learn from scrolls)... and a cleric and rogue to round it all out (because traps and debuffs are scary)

So that's what to build, but what about what to write? This is the part I'd like to pitch my two cents on, because frankly it's more exciting for the GM who just got his shiny new hardcover. DISCLAIMER: Your mileage may vary. This is pure opinion, but I hope you can take something from it and come back and tell me how it goes. I can see two ways you can go: one, you run with the Pathfinder iconics. They have the added perk of being in a whole lot of the art for the AP, and some great, simple, flexible backgrounds that tie in surprisingly well with the path.

Here are my thoughts on that. Spoilered for length and... well... spoilers:

I'll look at six of them, and how they interact with different parts of the AP:

Seoni, the sorcerer. as a Varisian, would be in town for the festival. Furthermore, she could trace her magical lineage back to Ancient Thassilion. But if you want to be truly devious, have her be a dead-lookalike for Aldern Foxglove's dead wife, who was a varisian herself. It adds an extra layer of creepiness to his obsession, for which Seoni makes the perfect target.

Harsk, the ranger. As a dwarf, Harsk is a long way from home. I can't think of a single dwarf npc in the path, save for one or two Sandpointers. However, his vendetta against the giants (an obvious choice for favored enemy) will really kick into high gear in the back half of the AP. Lastly, you could have him have fought beside, or even been an on-leave member of the Black Arrows.

Ezren, the grumpy old wizard, would be awesomely fun to play here, though I dont think he's as good a fit as Seoni (though you can easily run with both). You can give him a vested interest in Ancient Thassilon as the campaign progresses, and he'll be a great asset for all the "research" sections.

Kyra, the cleric, is a little harder to place. A cleric of Desna would probably be a better fit, but I'd feel bad leaving her out. Timitus in the Crypt of the Everflame playtest has her chasing a vision from her goddess that I suggest you just rip off wholesale for the background, and there's some gear in the Thistletop loot that's just made for a cleric of Sarenrae, iirc. Beyond that, her hard-lined devotion to healing and vanquishing undead will leave her plenty to do. Especially in healing Grayst, purging Foxglove Manor and healing townsfolk in the Goblin Attack.

Valeros and Merisiel would both be awesomely fun characters to play as, and after making friends with the party and in town and seeing some of the carvings in the depths of Thistletop (particularly those of Xin-Shalast, city of gold) they shouldn't need much prodding to plunder Thassilonian ruins and kick ass. I've also got this great image of Meri daring Valeros to drink from the Runewell in the catacombs, and when I first read the "Fortified Drinker" trait in the APG I pictured Valeros holed up in the Foxglove wine cellar drinking away his fear.

The iconics have awesome art, great personalities and backgrounds and a whole lot of potential for the path. This would, with a group of willing players, be the way I'd want to go, so see how your group feel about it.

Alternatively, if you want something a bit tighter, there are a few key things you can touch on, thematically, when you're writing up your pregens. Here are my ideas, I'm sure other posters will have better ones or maybe even disagree with me:

Spoiler:

You'll want a good target for Aldern's obsession (ideally a varisian girl, though it depends on the gender makeup/tastes/comfort zones of your group).

You'll want a scholar of Thassilion. A wizard can put the spellbooks you find to best use.

You'll want a greedy character or two. "Greed" is a central theme of the path, and the PCs are destined to find a whole city of gold.

A Cleric of Desna would be a great fit, especially in uprooting the various cults of Lamashtu in the first and fifth adventure, Varisian, elf, or otherwise.

A Sandpoint local would be a good fit, and you can work on writing ties to several npcs you wouldnt get to use otherwise, look the headmaster Gandethus.

Someone who's tussled with giants before, whether a black-arrow, Shoanti or a dwarf would have fun in the third and fourth adventures (and onwards)

You could also pluck some NPCs from the path, such as Ameiko and Shalelu, for your players to roll with, but that leaves you with less fun as a GM.

Whew... Is that what you were looking for?

[Haladir]

Um... what Twigs said.

Since I can't help but elaborate...

Basically, for players new to Pathfinder, I'd strongly recommend a core-only PC set. You want to fill the basic roles of warrior, arcane caster, healer, and burglar (to get past all the traps). For the fifth character, I'd recommend either another warrior (with a different combat focus) or a multifunction character (i.e. either a bard or a multi-class character).

I was also going to recommend the iconics. The original edition RotRL pre-gens were...

Valeros (male human [Taldan] fighter)
Kyra (female human [Kellishite] cleric of Sarenrae)
Seoni (female human [Varisian] sorceress)
Merisiel (female elf rogue)

I'd use them as the core, and add either Harsk the dwarf ranger or Lem the halfling bard as the fifth character.

[zylphryx]

honestly, I would agree that the "core four" (fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard) work pretty well for this AP, though for the fifth I would run with a paladin rather than a ranger. Smite (and later Aura of Justice) was key for one group I took through this AP in the last book. also be sure the Paladin does have a ranged weapon (smite over long distances and whatnot).

Additionally, swapping a bard for a rogue is a very viable solution and having a character with access to pretty much every knowledge skill will come in handy later in the AP.

The combats can be pretty brutal, so having a cleric is strongly advised especially one with positive channeling and selective channel.

[Humphrey Boggard]

@Twigs - "You could also pluck some NPCs from the path, such as Ameiko and Shalelu, for your players to roll with, but that leaves you with less fun as a GM."

Statting out Shalelu as a PC for a short-term player has worked out really well for us. We built her as a fighter 2/ranger X and she's an almost embarrassingly effective archer (literally, the player is kind of new and feels kind of bad about doing so much damage sometimes).

[Twigs]

Humphrey Boggard wrote:

Statting out Shalelu as a PC for a short-term player has worked out really well for us. We built her as a fighter 2/ranger X and she's an almost embarrassingly effective archer (literally, the player is kind of new and feels kind of bad about doing so much damage sometimes).

I actually replaced Shalelu in my game for some of the background characters in one of my PCs backstories. I've been kicking myself ever since. :( I think she's a great stand-in, and makes a lot more sense than Ameiko as a PC (who is still workable).

And yeah, Archer's are fantastic, and I expect favored enemy was plain ridiculous with the abundance of goblins and giants.

[Twigs]

Still around, uriel?

[uriel222]

Yup, but I'm in the middle of moving, and don't get on the boards as often as I'd want. I've got to say, while I appreciate all the feedback in this thread, your post... wow.

I asked the say question of James Jacobs in his thread and he said:

James Jacobs wrote:

I'd wait for NPC Codex to come out and use the 1st level iconics from that book. AKA: the players would play Valeros, Seoni, Kyra, and Merisiel.

I would NOT optimize them. They'd be 20 point characters, and I would give each one of them a fun little quirk that gives them a flavorful bonus and roleplaying bit. Like, for example, I'd say Valeros has a lucky tankard that grants a +1 luck bonus to the next saving throw he makes during the next 24 hours after he drinks from it. I'd make sure that each boon was significant but not overpowering, and would be relatively equal in power to each other so that no one character is overpowered.

Leaving aside the "quirk" idea, those four seemed like an odd selection. What do you think?

[Giddoen]

AWESOME reply! I did the same thing as I got the Anniversary ed of RotRLs and we sat down yesterday and talked about what all wanted to play we ended up with:

Dwarven Cleric of Serenae(SP?)
Dwarven Beserker! (raised by Orcs!)
Half-Elf Pally of Sarenae (SP?)
Halfling Rogue

after characters were made we played thru some of the first act and got past the 2 goblin encounters in the open of the new church! All went well and fun was indeed had!

Specially when the Goblin Warchanger gor a crit on the pally and slit his throat wide open! he went down to -2 in one hit! It was funny how the party had a little more respect for simple Goblins!

We are ready for our next session in 2 weeks...I have allot of reading to do!

Humphrey Boggard wrote:

The "ideal" party is comprised of characters that the players will have fun playing. Part of this will be having a party that can deal with the different challenges of the AP and part of it will be the connection they have with their characters. Instead of creating characters for them I would suggest having a session where you and the party meet to discuss the characters they would like to play and what roles each character will fill.

A sample party of five (avoiding almost entirely the usual four square of Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Cleric):

Human Samurai - melee and mounted brute. Can take damage and deal it out on foot or horseback.
Human Ranger - switch-hitter build. Ranged damage and scouting skills.
Halfling Witch - battlefield control and occasional blasting with a bit of healing.
Dwarven Cleric - divine magic (buffing, healing) and melee combat.
Half-Orc Inquisitor - Intimidator + melee damage and divine support.

edit: Also have a look at the RotRL player's guide (that you can get for free from paizo.com).

[Shalafi2412]

Giddoen wrote:

AWESOME reply! I did the same thing as I got the Anniversary ed of RotRLs and we sat down yesterday and talked about what all wanted to play we ended up with:

Dwarven Cleric of Serenae(SP?)
Dwarven Beserker! (raised by Orcs!)
Half-Elf Pally of Sarenae (SP?)
Halfling Rogue

after characters were made we played thru some of the first act and got past the 2 goblin encounters in the open of the new church! All went well and fun was indeed had!

Specially when the Goblin Warchanger gor a crit on the pally and slit his throat wide open! he went down to -2 in one hit! It was funny how the party had a little more respect for simple Goblins!

We are ready for our next session in 2 weeks...I have allot of reading to do!

Humphrey Boggard wrote:

The "ideal" party is comprised of characters that the players will have fun playing. Part of this will be having a party that can deal with the different challenges of the AP and part of it will be the connection they have with their characters. Instead of creating characters for them I would suggest having a session where you and the party meet to discuss the characters they would like to play and what roles each character will fill.

A sample party of five (avoiding almost entirely the usual four square of Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Cleric):

Human Samurai - melee and mounted brute. Can take damage and deal it out on foot or horseback.
Human Ranger - switch-hitter build. Ranged damage and scouting skills.
Halfling Witch - battlefield control and occasional blasting with a bit of healing.
Dwarven Cleric - divine magic (buffing, healing) and melee combat.
Half-Orc Inquisitor - Intimidator + melee damage and divine support.

edit: Also have a look at the RotRL player's guide (that you can get for free from paizo.com).

Very Sarenraeish party! Are there any items that fit her portfolio that the characters can take advantage of.

[Twigs]

uriel222 wrote:

I've got to say, while I appreciate all the feedback in this thread, your post... wow.

You're too kind!

uriel222 wrote:

I asked the say question of James Jacobs in his thread and he said:

James Jacobs wrote:

Things.

Leaving aside the "quirk" idea, those four seemed like an odd selection. What do you think?

Huh. That's pretty cool that the man himself has much the same idea. As for his selections, they were the first four iconics printed. They were on the covers of the path, AND they make up the quintessential 4 man party which is a great fit for the "classic" feel for this path. They don't seem like a weird fit at all. Seoni is a great fit and Kyra is a nice contrast to the more uh... mercenary nature of Valeros and Meri. Harsk would be my first pick for a 5th man.

The only change I'd make to your choices is on the topic of gender balance. If there are some players at your table who are uncomfortable with playing female characters, you could probably replace Seoni with Ezren (see above for why I think Seoni is awesome for Runelords, though.)

If you ARE interested in the "quirks" side of things, this years free RPG day module (Dawn of the Scarlet Sun, I believe) used that system and I thought it was really great. It's a freebee, so check it out.

And if you're interested, I've got the iconics statted out at first-level and the "original 4" at 4th kitted out in loot from the path and the ocassional bit of purchased/crafted gear. I was crunching the numbers on loot for my belated play by post (to see if I was right on the adventure being a little short on loot. Turns out I was wrong!) and I found it was a lot easier to get a lay of the land with a baseline to work on. The math is long since gone, but I kept the statblocks.

[uriel222]

I missed Free RPG day this year, I'll have to check that out.

The reason his choices caught me as odd, though:

• There's no one in the list good for research (no bard, no wizard, etc)

• There's no one that's particularly suited to the wilderness (no ranger, druid, etc)

• If you do have a Cleric, I was expecting something Varisian (like Desna or Pharasma). Sarenrae seems like a fish out of water, here.

• How many traps are there? Would a Rogue have a chance to be anything other than "the other Fighter"?

• No connections that I can see to the AP elements itself (aside from Seoni, and that almost by accident).

[Twigs]

uriel222 wrote:

I missed Free RPG day this year, I'll have to check that out.

The reason his choices caught me as odd, though:

• There's no one in the list good for research (no bard, no wizard, etc)

• There's no one that's particularly suited to the wilderness (no ranger, druid, etc)

• If you do have a Cleric, I was expecting something Varisian (like Desna or Pharasma). Sarenrae seems like a fish out of water, here.

• How many traps are there? Would a Rogue have a chance to be anything other than "the other Fighter"?

• No connections that I can see to the AP elements itself (aside from Seoni, and that almost by accident).

There are various libraries smattered throughout the adventure (one in Sandpoint, one in Jorgenfist) that allow more or less any PC to succeed at his research (big bonuses to your checks, at least in Jorgenfist), and I'd think Seoni would be interested in uncovering Thassilion anyway, given that it's the source of her magic. If you're concerned, add Ezren. Still, I think Harsk's the better fit.

In the four man party, that's the bit that kind of suffers. Fighters can take survival now, though, but if you run without a 5th man, remember Shalelu will be along for a lot of the wilderness trawling anyway.

Yeah. Iirc, Merisiel worships Desna and Seoni Pharasma, but it's a definate failing there. You could easily write up a Desnan PC but I'd probably stick with the Iconics in your shoes. Sarenrae's tenets (smiting undead, healing, mercy) are fairly universal. If you do want something to rope in a Sarenraen you could POSSIBLY run Dawn of the Scarlet Sun somewhere. (In short, a demonic serial killer in Magnimar is targeting clerics of the faith). However, having two serial killers in a row might get a little stale for your PCs, so it all depends on the spin you can put on it...

Lots. And a lot of them are MEAN. Also this is one of the few adventures I've seen rogues ability to spot magical traps come up ever. There's plenty of room for the rogue, particularly the creative one, to find a lot to do with his skills, whether they be stealth, private investigation or seduction.

The iconics (Kyra excluded, but in practically every setting she's in she's a "fish out of water", it's kind of her thing) seem to have been written with Varisia in mind (at least in their original writeups) as that's ALL there was of Golarion at the time. But they're not made to be a perfect fit, rather than a blank-slate. Like most PCs, the bulk of their motivation will spring up in the path itself: friendship, duty, revenge, their relationship with Sandpoint, their lust for power or wealth or their own struggle for survival.

Last wall of text, I swear! (I'm not making any promises. :P)