Lack of Monk Gear in Ultimate Equipment


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ciretose wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Actually, the SR means that the monk cannot benefit from party buffs during combat. I think that is the biggest issue.

They can, if they don't have spell resistance up.

I agree I would prefer it be able to be up and down as a free action, but I don't want the main problem to be lost in the shuffle, as it seems Jason believes that we have become more of a nit picking b&*%# session than people with legitimate concerns.

I disagree with him (for most of us) but losing focus on the core issue may lose momentum for change further.

At worst, I see SR as an equal trade off. And I personally have found it very, very helpful.

I really dislike SR. It always "works" at the wrong time. I would trade it out if allowed unless I was in a group where nobody really cast spells to help each other.

edit:I was speaking as a player, not a GM. :)


Here is a straight forward Monk;

Monk:

Dragon Monk
Human Monk 10
Lawful Neutral Medium Humanoid
Init: +1; Senses: Perception +16

AC: 24, Touch: 21, Flat-footed: 15
HP: 93 (10 HD)
Fort: +11, Ref: +11, Will: +12 (+2 against sleep effects, paralysis effects, stunning effects, and enchantment spells and effects)
Defensive Abilities: Improved Evasion, Still Mind, Purity of Body,
Immune: Disease,

Speed: 60ft
Melee: Unarmed Strike +15*/+10 (2d6+10 plus 1d4 Bleed/19-20x2)
Flurry +16*/+16/+11/+11 (2d6+10 plus 1d4 Bleed/19-20x2)
*(2d6+12 plus 1d4 Bleed/19-20x2) First attack in round.

Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows, Ki Strike (Lawful and Magic), Elemental Fist (10/Day, +1d6 Fire), Stunning Fist (10/Day, Fort DC 18, Stun 1 round or Sickened 1 minute or Fatigue), Dragon Style (You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies), Dragon Ferocity (When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus),

STR 22, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 7,
Base Attack: +7/+2; CMB:+18 (+20 Grapple); CMD: 28 (30 against Grapple)

Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Belier's Bite, Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus(Unarmed), Dragon Style, Mobility, Dragon Ferocity, Elemental Fist(Fire), Improved Critical,

Skills: Acrobatics +11 (+21 jump), Climb +12, Swim +12, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Perception +16, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +15,

Languages: Common,

SQ: Ki Pool (8 points), Slow Fall (50ft), Wholeness of Body (2 Ki, Heals 10 HP), High Jump, Maneuver Training,

Gear: Bracers of Armor(+3), Belt of Giant Strength(+4), Monk's Robe, Headband of Inspired Wisdom(+2), Amulet of Mighty Fists(+1), Ring of Protection(+2), Cloak of Resistance(+2),(2)Potion of Cure Serious Wounds(CL 5th), Potion of Fly (CL 5th), Potion of Invisibility(Cl 3rd), Mwk Sling, (10) Sling Bullets,

So what exactly is wrong with this Monk?
It's not MAD.
I think it can fight very well with out sacrificing its defense and it has a number of special abilities.


ciretose wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Actually, the SR means that the monk cannot benefit from party buffs during combat. I think that is the biggest issue.
They can, if they don't have spell resistance up.

Which costs a standard action. Fight starts, caster buffs party. Monk has two options in rounf 1: use superior speed to get in there, or lose an action and be buffed. If the caster throws a buff at any time after round 1, the monk has to know in advance and lose that round of actions to be guaranteed a benefit.

ciretose wrote:

I think the concern is that the items included indicate that the Devs view the "problems" differently than the community.

The wraps in particular are somewhat frightening, as they have the same slot issues as the amulet (worse perhaps, given it takes the monk robe slot) and don't nearly address the core issue.

We are worried they don't get that it isn't about wanted to out fight the fighter, but about being able to hit at least as well as a bard.

This is the point that I felt as well, looking at Jason's posts. He keeps referring to damage, and it's not about damage: it's about being able to hit and get past DR.

Boosting to hit boosts maneuvers (which suck above moderate level) and it boosts stunning fist by allowing you to actually connect.

@Wraithstrike & Bomanz: Yes I can build a decent monk, but there are not many ways to do it, which is my lament. It's cookie-cutter monks or sucky monks or use archetypes and make not-monks. Even the decent monk can't really contribute as well as some other classes could if given the same level of attention.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Brain in a Jar wrote:
So what exactly is wrong with this Monk?

The fact that it took you feats from 3 books apart from CRB to build him. Sure I can make a great Monk too, but that will require something everyone dreads from the 3.5 times: dumpster diving. A CRB class should be perfectly fine using CRB material only, something Monk has a problem with.


Gorbacz wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
So what exactly is wrong with this Monk?
The fact that it took you feats from 3 books apart from CRB to build him. Sure I can make a great Monk too, but that will require something everyone dreads from the 3.5 times: dumpster diving. A CRB class should be perfectly fine using CRB material only, something Monk has a problem with.

Why is that a problem when the SRD has them all on it?

I've also never seen that be a problem for any other builds on this forum.(Correct me if i'm wrong here.)

Liberty's Edge

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Here is a straight forward Monk;

** spoiler omitted **...

Thank you for this, I always find builds more helpful for discussions.

You have a +15 to hit at 10th level.

CR 10 creatures according to the bestiary have an AC of 24. So you are missing a good amount of the time despited a heavy investment in strength (22)

It is better when you flurry, but only by one, and you can't move and flurry.

For comparison, the average attack bonus for a CR creature is +18.

Your AC is equal to an average CR 10 creature.

Even considering bleed, your average damage is way below CR 10 (45 high, 33 low)

Your stunning fist save DC is the same as a CR 10 creature, but you have to be able to hit to use the effect, and you are missing 40% of the time. Much higher than one would miss for a spell effect.

And you had to dump Charisma to 7 to get here.

I am at work, but I suggest others post builds from other classes to compare. I suggest 3/4 classes rather than martial classes, as it will better demonstrate the problem.

+15 to attack isn't cutting it at 10th level, and you had to focus on strength to get there. And even with that focus, your damage isn't keeping up either.

Liberty's Edge

Gorbacz wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
So what exactly is wrong with this Monk?
The fact that it took you feats from 3 books apart from CRB to build him. Sure I can make a great Monk too, but that will require something everyone dreads from the 3.5 times: dumpster diving. A CRB class should be perfectly fine using CRB material only, something Monk has a problem with.

And as I pointed out, this isn't that great a build compared to what you can do with other classes, and compared with bestiary expectations.

And it isn't because you did a poor job, it is because the tools aren't there.

Some of the Archetypes help some types of builds. And monks with weapons can do pretty well. But the unarmed monk lags.

Dark Archive

I'm okay with not rewriting the entire class. I always thought little things can be added it to or changed to make the class a lot better. Simple things like...

Slow Fall should just be Feather Fall. Don't need walls or things to slow your fall, it just happens.

Allowing Great combat maneuver feats on the monk's bonus feat list.

Changing FoB back to allowing multiple attacks from 1 source, whether it's a weapon or the left elbow.

Instead of spending ki to overcome DR, it happens automatically. Also add a weaker version of fighter weapon training to monks, so they can boot either a weapon or unarmed strikes with pluses, which we all know are more stable. Or if that's not cool, more of smaller dice, like 3d6 instead of 2d10. Getting the average damage up is important. The class does not need to deal as much damage as full BAB classes, but it needs to be good at defending itself.

His SR should be allowed to shut off as a free action or swift instead of a standard like normal SR.

Fast movement should not be an enhancement bonus.


Also just to be clear i'm not sure if a Monk needs anything, but i'm willing to try and see if they do.

Perhaps a few posted builds using 15 points at level 10 of various other classes could help compare. I'd compare a Monk to 3/4 BAB or perhaps Two-Weapon Fighting builds.

At least that way it's not just petty bickering and whining and more constructive.

Dark Archive

Dabbler wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I think the concern is that the items included indicate that the Devs view the "problems" differently than the community.

The wraps in particular are somewhat frightening, as they have the same slot issues as the amulet (worse perhaps, given it takes the monk robe slot) and don't nearly address the core issue.

We are worried they don't get that it isn't about wanted to out fight the fighter, but about being able to hit at least as well as a bard.

This is the point that I felt as well, looking at Jason's posts. He keeps referring to damage, and it's not about damage: it's about being able to hit and get past DR.

Boosting to hit boosts maneuvers (which suck above moderate level) and it boosts stunning fist by allowing you to actually connect.

@Wraithstrike & Bomanz: Yes I can build a decent monk, but there are not many ways to do it, which is my lament. It's cookie-cutter monks or sucky monks or use archetypes and make not-monks. Even the decent monk can't really contribute as well as some other classes could if given the same level of attention.

All of my monk builds are centered on doing something useful that is not related to damage because I know it's not what they are great at. I have a few ideas that haven't been tested...

Halfling monk that is high on AC and defensive abilities, uses the Helpful trait to aid another for +4 on allies's attack roll.

Qinggong/sensei that boosts everybody else's fighting, and can use some maneuvers to assist (due to using WIS for attack rolls).

Maneuver master monk with dirty trick to blind everything if possible. I was thinking of going into ninja or rogue so I can get sneak attack, but I never decided to do so or not.

I think other than the maneuver master, I'm not convinced my other 2 ideas are not going to hold up beyond level 7 or higher. One of these days I'll be able to build and test all 3 of these. And I hope I have a 20 point buy for them.


One of the main issues seems to be the monks inability to overcome DR, which is interesting since they actually have the ability to overcome three types of DR built into the class, which I don't believe any other class has.

So, in reality, the real issue is lack of options to enhance the unarmed strike. The fighter can have five different weapons that each work against a different DR (not very realistic, but possible.) Why aren't there options like handwraps, that take up a weapon slot, that turn your fists into +5 good aligned weapons, or frost/fire weapons etc?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Because the designers don't want to use an item fix for the Monk and players are unhappy that their vision of the Monk as a full-body-contact frontline fighter is impinged by things like handwraps.


magnuskn wrote:
players are unhappy that their vision of the Monk as a full-body-contact frontline fighter is impinged by things like handwraps.

Not really, i would like to see that item.


Lil B wrote:

One of the main issues seems to be the monks inability to overcome DR, which is interesting since they actually have the ability to overcome three types of DR built into the class, which I don't believe any other class has.

DR/ magic is like a joke almost everyone can bypass that DR at leves when it start to apear.

DR/Lawful ho much creatures have that DR?

DR/Adamantine, great but it is until Levevl 16, at that level martical class should have a +5 weapon thatn can byppas almost all DRs.

What happes with the others DR like evil and cold iron? the monk have to buy back up weapons and Holy and cold iron are not really inexpensives.

Dark Archive

ciretose wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
The devs have stated that any fixes to monk will not be "stealth fix via items", and will be undertaken after GenCon (read: long after UE was finalized), so anybody expecting UE to be the "Monk Fix Book" clearly needs some training in expectation management. Also, nerdrage control.

I think the concern is that the items included indicate that the Devs view the "problems" differently than the community.

The wraps in particular are somewhat frightening, as they have the same slot issues as the amulet (worse perhaps, given it takes the monk robe slot) and don't nearly address the core issue.

We are worried they don't get that it isn't about wanted to out fight the fighter, but about being able to hit at least as well as a bard.

This is the part that breaks my heart.


Nicos wrote:
Lil B wrote:

One of the main issues seems to be the monks inability to overcome DR, which is interesting since they actually have the ability to overcome three types of DR built into the class, which I don't believe any other class has.

DR/ magic is like a joke almost everyone can bypass that DR at leves when it start to apear.

DR/Lawful ho much creatures have that DR?

DR/Adamantine, great but it is until Levevl 16, at that level martical class should have a +5 weapon thatn can byppas almost all DRs.

What happes with the others DR like evil and cold iron? the monk have to buy back up weapons and Hole and cold iron are not really inexpensives.

Which supports my option of adding items that enhance the unarmed strike to be a magic weapon.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I think that if you want the monk to have the same hit percentages as a fighter, with the same damage potential, and all the other monk defenses that they get, you are going to be disappointed.

Not at all.

I don't want the monk to replace the fighter and have the fighters damage potential.

I like the monk's defenses and special abilities very much in general. I would like to see some adjustments to some of them and I would definitely like the monk's ki abilities to be expanded a little bit. And I agree with some others that the monk should get some improvements to hit. Not to be on par with the fighter but to be a bit better than now.

And I don't think the monk suffers from MAD - actually I see it just the other way round: the monk can profit from all attributes (more than most other characters), so there is no need of dumping attributes.

My suggestions:

- let flurry work like misinterpreted (i.e. it should be allowed to use the same body part or weapon over and over again)
- make the greater maneuver feats available as bonus feats (requiring the improved versions, but otherwise ignoring prerequisites)
- let the monk be proficient with all monk weapons
- make Wholeness of body be usable as a swift action (maybe for an additional point of ki); maybe increase the amount of damage healed by it
- make Abundant step a real move action (see http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz67x9?Suggestion-of-changes-to-Abundant-Step-and #1)
- expand the ways ki can be spent (for some ideas see http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz60fk?More-Ki-for-the-Monk)
- change ki strike to be an inherent (?) to hit bonus for unarmed strikes (and combat maneuvers) ranging from +1 to +5 (i.e. +1 per 4 monk levels) counting like a magical weapon including the ability to overcome DR like a magic weapon of same bonus; maybe let the monk improve that by +1 for 1 round and 1 ki as a swift action
- increase mobility by allowing additional 5' steps while flurrying or an additonal attack after moving


Nicos wrote:


DR/Lawful ho much creatures have that DR?

22. Over twice as many as creatures with chaotic :D

Quote:


What happes with the others DR like evil and cold iron? the monk have to buy back up weapons and Hole and cold iron are not really inexpensives.

Singing Bell of Striking and Prayer Wheel of Ethical Strength help a lot. Plus, they just ooze with the flavor of a monk.

Probably worthwhile to give the monk Master Crafstman and CWI.


Cheapy wrote:
Singing Bell of Striking and Prayer Wheel of Ethical Strength help a lot. Plus, they just ooze with the flavor of a monk.

The names are very much in flavor of a monk indeed! Sounds promising.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nicos wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
players are unhappy that their vision of the Monk as a full-body-contact frontline fighter is impinged by things like handwraps.
Not really, i would like to see that item.

<sigh> I'll qualify it further then: A vociferous number of players have problems with a magic item which transforms the Monk from a full-body contact fighter into a pugilist. See: Knuckles, Brass and other such discussions.


Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Singing Bell of Striking and Prayer Wheel of Ethical Strength help a lot. Plus, they just ooze with the flavor of a monk.
The names are very much in flavor of a monk indeed! Sounds promising.

Quick description of them here. They're a bit expensive (10k per prayer wheel (although you'll only really need the Good one), and 6k per bell. They are slotless items that you meditate with when regaining ki (use a ki mat to change more than once per day), and it swaps out the lawfulness (for the prayer wheel) for good or evil, and similar with magic and silver or cold iron.

Liberty's Edge

Cheapy wrote:
Nicos wrote:


DR/Lawful ho much creatures have that DR?

22. Over twice as many as creatures with chaotic :D

Quote:


What happes with the others DR like evil and cold iron? the monk have to buy back up weapons and Hole and cold iron are not really inexpensives.

Singing Bell of Striking and Prayer Wheel of Ethical Strength help a lot. Plus, they just ooze with the flavor of a monk.

Probably worthwhile to give the monk Master Crafstman and CWI.

What slots do they take?

EDIT:NINJAED!

Awfully expensive to do what enhancements do to weapons automatically with no advance planning...


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ciretose wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Nicos wrote:


DR/Lawful ho much creatures have that DR?

22. Over twice as many as creatures with chaotic :D

Quote:


What happes with the others DR like evil and cold iron? the monk have to buy back up weapons and Hole and cold iron are not really inexpensives.

Singing Bell of Striking and Prayer Wheel of Ethical Strength help a lot. Plus, they just ooze with the flavor of a monk.

Probably worthwhile to give the monk Master Crafstman and CWI.

What slots do they take?

They take up first and second slots of your backpack.


Btw, by my spreadsheet, 103 monsters have DR Silver, and 174 have DR cold iron.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

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(me reading this thread)

scroll ...
scroll ...
scroll ...
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scroll ...
Holy crap Jason posted.
scroll ...
scroll ...
scroll ...
Holy crap Jason posted again!
scroll ...
scroll ...
scroll ...
scroll ...
scroll ...
scroll ...
Finally, the end!!

:-)

Liberty's Edge

Cheapy wrote:
Btw, by my spreadsheet, 103 monsters have DR Silver, and 174 have DR cold iron.

And all are overcome by a +3 weapon enhancement, which costs a monk 45k and everyone else 18k (36k for two)


Ya'know, not finding ways to complain about everything monks get would go a long way to scrub these threads of the reputation of "nit picking b@*!$ session" :P

(Although, it's probably best to realize that headband of ki focus really isn't that great, if you got your hopes up about it.)


Depending if the double weapon / two weapon fighting bit is binding for the second half, this could be helpful:

Quote:

Made from a mix of sturdy steel and boiled leather, these

vambraces grant a +1 deflection bonus to AC while the
wearer is wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not
including natural weapons or unarmed attacks). In addition,
once per round, when attacking with an off-handed weapon,
the wearer can reduce any penalties on attack rolls made
with that weapon by 2

Hahahaha, boots of caltrops combined with the monks HUGE speed means they can cover the battlefield with caltrops in one round.


Sadly they still exclude unarmed strikes.


That's the "if" part.


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Cheapy wrote:

Ya'know, not finding ways to complain about everything monks get would go a long way to scrub these threads of the reputation of "nit picking b@*!$ session" :P

(Although, it's probably best to realize that headband of ki focus really isn't that great, if you got your hopes up about it.)

This. It seems like everytime you offer an option, you get a response of That's not good enough because....

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed some posts. Learn to walk away, folks.

Liberty's Edge

Lil B wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Ya'know, not finding ways to complain about everything monks get would go a long way to scrub these threads of the reputation of "nit picking b@*!$ session" :P

(Although, it's probably best to realize that headband of ki focus really isn't that great, if you got your hopes up about it.)

This. It seems like everytime you offer an option, you get a response of That's not good enough because....

None of them address the root problem, which is an issue that can and should be addressed with an item.

You can't hit reliably using unarmed strike. The AoMF costs 45k and takes a slot to do what every other class (including the monk) can do with one weapons at 18k.

So to have a viable monk, I need to not use one of the core class features.

That is what needs correction.


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ciretose wrote:
Lil B wrote:
stuff
Cheapy wrote:
stuff

None of them address the root problem, which is an issue that can and should be addressed with an item.

You can't hit reliably using unarmed strike. The AoMF costs 45k and takes a slot to do what every other class (including the monk) can do with one weapons at 18k.

So to have a viable monk, I need to not use one of the core class features.

That is what needs correction.

So really, it's the AoMF that needs to be fixed, or some other item alternative introduced.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Hey there Everybody,

Couple of quick points,

There are some swaths of this thread filled with some vitriol that is totally unwarranted. Play nice or we will have to close this thread down and issue some timeouts for folks.

I get the frustration here behind the monk, and I get some of the math problems. There are some fundamental issues with a few of the class features that we will be looking into in the future, but this class is probably one of the trickiest to balance. They are modestly capable in a lot of things but (despite their thematic focus on unarmed strikes), they are really not a master of any of them. This is a problem with no easy solutions. We will be looking into a few fixes in the coming months, one of which will probably involve reevaluating the previous ruling regarding flurry of blows.

All that said, I gotta ask for some patience here folks. The design team is rather slammed at the moment trying to get caught up on a number of issues and this is one of them. We will get there, just give us some time and above all...

Play nice..

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


ciretose wrote:
Lil B wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Ya'know, not finding ways to complain about everything monks get would go a long way to scrub these threads of the reputation of "nit picking b@*!$ session" :P

(Although, it's probably best to realize that headband of ki focus really isn't that great, if you got your hopes up about it.)

This. It seems like everytime you offer an option, you get a response of That's not good enough because....

None of them address the root problem, which is an issue that can and should be addressed with an item.

You can't hit reliably using unarmed strike. The AoMF costs 45k and takes a slot to do what every other class (including the monk) can do with one weapons at 18k.

So to have a viable monk, I need to not use one of the core class features.

That is what needs correction.

They do address one of the three problems people have with the monk; DR. And hell they are slotless, which is nice. I think the other two issues (MAD and 'to hit') will have to be dealt with by looking at the class.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there Everybody,

Couple of quick points,

There are some swaths of this thread filled with some vitriol that is totally unwarranted. Play nice or we will have to close this thread down and issue some timeouts for folks.

I get the frustration here behind the monk, and I get some of the math problems. There are some fundamental issues with a few of the class features that we will be looking into in the future, but this class is probably one of the trickiest to balance. They are modestly capable in a lot of things but (despite their thematic focus on unarmed strikes), they are really not a master of any of them. This is a problem with no easy solutions. We will be looking into a few fixes in the coming months, one of which will probably involve reevaluating the previous ruling regarding flurry of blows.

All that said, I gotta ask for some patience here folks. The design team is rather slammed at the moment trying to get caught up on a number of issues and this is one of them. We will get there, just give us some time and above all...

Play nice..

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I'd suggest just picking one or two things the monk should be good at and then really, really sell that to the community. Being mediocre at a lot of things is a problem. Even the supposed "jack of all trades master of none" class (Bard) really has one specialty: buffing.

Liberty's Edge

Lil B wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Lil B wrote:
stuff
Cheapy wrote:
stuff

None of them address the root problem, which is an issue that can and should be addressed with an item.

You can't hit reliably using unarmed strike. The AoMF costs 45k and takes a slot to do what every other class (including the monk) can do with one weapons at 18k.

So to have a viable monk, I need to not use one of the core class features.

That is what needs correction.

So really, it's the AoMF that needs to be fixed, or some other item alternative introduced.

I think yes. The MAD is only an issue because you can't hit anything if you don't pump Strength. If you could reliably hit if you start with say a 14 strength by investing in enhancements, it isn't particularly MAD since any damage loss is made up for with stunning fist.

And DR is overcome if you can add enhancement.

Make it slotless and all problems for me are solved.

I don't want to be better than other classes at damage, but I do want to be combat effective using unarmed strike, and now they really aren't with standard point buy.


Why should it be slotless?


Cheapy wrote:
Why should it be slotless?

I think he mean slotless in the same way a weapon is.


But why? Different classes have different focuses on what slots they need to use. Should a fighter get a slotless item to get the same level of saves that a monk does? Or a slotless speed boosting item to help them move about the battlefield more easily?


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Actually, nevermind. Lost interest. Cheers!


Cheapy wrote:
Why should it be slotless?

The Fighters primary damage item (his weapon) doesn't compete for item slots with other items that provide stuff like defense.

Why should a monks primary damage item need to? Nobody is saying it should be hidable/sunder/steal-proof. Just that it'd be fair if it didn't detract from his defenses/utility even further.


I think the real problem is Aomf is overpriced to begin with. Maybe not in theory, but in practice it is. Using the rules, one could stat a much more specific item to get the job done that's a lot cheaper without breaking the system, and yet the developers wear the high price of an unspecialized AoMF like a badge of honor and refuse to make anything official that works better.

Case and point: the item that started this thread. It's balanced against the AoMF - but realisticly, it has restrictions on it that are pretty nasty and not supported by item creation rules. It takes up a body slot and only augments essentially one attack for every 5 levels, and is myseriously capped at +7 for no real reason.

I understand why the developers did this. Damage of unarmed strike scales very well and eventually becomes one of the best damage dealing light weapons in the game. If you allow it to be powered up like any other weapon, it quickly becomes almost too powerful. Even so though, a massively overpriced and underpowered power up is not a fair way to restrict it.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Brain in a Jar wrote:

Here is a straight forward Monk;

Monk: So what exactly is wrong with this Monk?
(spoiler omitted)

How did you qualify for Elemental Fist (requires a BAB of +8) ? The only way I know how to do that before level 11 is to splash fighter for more BAB or be a Monk of the Four Winds. Or have I missed something ?

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Dragon Ferocity qualifies you for Elemental Fist; even better, it counts as though you were a Monk of the Four Winds so the damage scales with your level, too, which is sorta nice. Great for charge bursts or you want the imagery of unleashing flaming shoryoken :)

On that note, that build could be further optimized by taking a +1 BAB class at first level (Barbarian if a Martial Artist or Unarmed Fighter otherwise) to allow Weapon Focus AND Power Attack as first level feats, then get Weapon Spec. (Unarmed) into the mix; something like this.

More optimized damage Monk build, level 11:

Unarmed Fighter 1/Monk 10 (
1b: Dragon Style
1h: Weapon Focus (unarmed)
1g: Power Attack
2b: Dodge
3b: Imp Grapple
3g: Belier's Bite
5g: Dragon Ferocity
7b: Imp Trip/Imp Disarm/Combat Reflexes (or Hamatulatsu if you're GM's crazy and allows it)
7g: Elemental Fist
9g: Weapon Spec (unarmed)
11g: Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed)
11b: Medusa's Wrath

Assuming 22 Str and a Monk's Robe (no other modifiers outside of the feats), first open up with a Charging Stunning Elemental strike; this will be at +18 to hit, deal 2d6+11 + 1d4 + 3d6 elemental damage, average of 31 for a single hit. The trick will be to get the enemy stunned, not only making them susceptible to Medusa's Wrath, but then justifying using Power Attack. Using a Ki point for 1 more strike, that's 8 attacks while flurrying, +14 for 5 of those attacks, +9 on two, and a measily +4 on the other, each dealing 2d6+17, plus throw in 3d6 from Elemental Fist and whatever Belier Bite bleed is. Still assuming that 4 attacks miss, that's 8d6 + 68 for an average of 96 damage, not including the other aforementioned source.

Next level gets far better, adding another attack when flurrying (even if it's at a lower , granting Greater Weapon Specialization, and 2d8 base damage.

Which goes back the earlier statement that a Monk can only deal out this kind of damage by going for a high Strength build. I believe good Monk damage can be done, but not without sacrificing a significant amount of survivability to do so.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

That's what I was missing, thank you. I had tried to build a Master of Many Styles, but the archetype can't be combined with either Weapons Adept or Monk of the Four Winds, so I was frustrated.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
All that said, I gotta ask for some patience here folks. The design team is rather slammed at the moment trying to get caught up on a number of issues and this is one of them. We will get there, just give us some time and above all...

Stealth?

Lighting?

:)

Liberty's Edge

Cheapy wrote:
But why? Different classes have different focuses on what slots they need to use. Should a fighter get a slotless item to get the same level of saves that a monk does? Or a slotless speed boosting item to help them move about the battlefield more easily?

It was already said, weapons are slotless.

What concerns me is that the "fix" seems to be restoring what was actually a problem (flurry working with a single weapon, therefore making a single weapon as valuable as a double weapon) without fixing the fact that monks can't hit anything with unarmed strike.

The temple sword was broken, they made the right call correcting it.

Brass knuckles were an inelegant solution to getting weapon enhancement.

But "going back" doesn't fix the unarmed problem and it reinstates the temple sword problem.


I disagree. Monks should be able to flurry with a single weapon; how exactly is that is a problem? It is a problem if it remains as SKR and JB said they originally intended it: because neither the sohei nor the zen archer work anymore.

MA

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