you can instead use a manufactured reach weapon in both hands with your free simple weapon proficiency, for 1.5x your massive strength. which will keep up on static damage bonuses with things like weapon specialization or weapon training. the only thing you are missing is the 4th iterative, which would likely miss anyway. by using a longspear wielding biped, you save countless evolution points normally spent on natural attacks, lose less when you can't full attack, gain a lot of reach to exploit combat reflexes with, deal more with attacks of opportunity, save a lot of funds that would have been spent on an overpriced amulet. and can afford more points for flight and things like DR.
you don't need lots of attacks when you can already reliably drop a foe in 1-2 rounds. power attack and combat reflexes are the only damage boosters you really need. leaving you room for stuff like toughness to augment your absurdly high hit points, affecting both pools or stuff that gives you additional class skills like cosmopolitan.
it says at least the same size. meaning that the same size is a minimum.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist . The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
bold and italics on key words
adverb superl. of little with less as compar.
5.
to the smallest extent, amount, or degree: That's the least important question of all. He talks least.
in other words, minimum. you can have a large synthesist
about the replinishable hit points. by taking some damage yourself, you can maintain the suit's health. which can be healed by cure spells. effectively, the seperate pools are essentially blurred. a summoned nonfused eidolon can benefit from cure spells, why can't a fused one?
Regarding, healing from the FAQ, we have the following;
Summoner: How does a synthesist (page 80) heal damage to his eidolon?
Because the eidolon gives the synthesist temporary hit points rather than having a separate pool of normal hit points, effects that cure hit points don't restore the eidolon's temporary hit points. This technically leaves you unable to heal the eidolon. To remedy this, effects that specifically restore hp to an eidolon (such as rejuvenate eidolon) restore temporary hit points to a synthesist's eidolon. This does mean those spells end up as a sort of must-have "spell tax" for synthesists, but the advantage of being a synthesist is your eidolon's hp are a buffer between you and damage, unlike a normal summoner who can be targeted separately from his eidolon.
Even the Fast Healing evolution, or other fast healing or regeneration effects, restore hit points rather than temporary hit points, so they heal the summoner, not the eidolon's temporary hit points.
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/02/11
summoners get haste as a 2nd level spell a whole level earlier than the wizard gets it as a 3rd. they also get (not counting thier SLA). in fact, thier spell list is one of the sweetest partial caster lists out there. especially for summoning, battlefield control, and buffs.
Shielded Meld is the stackable bonus to both AC and Saving throws. combined with the absurd attribute bonuses, the requisite big 6 items every other martial uses, and the special bonus type of shielded meld. you can get close to paladinlike saves. reflex will likely be your worst save, but your fortitude will be fairly decent and so will your will. shielded meld is effectively an amulet of natural armor and a cloak of resistance melded into one that stacks. like any smart martial, you would eventually look at physical perfection belts once affordable. the natural armor bonus stacks with bracers and the amulet.
limited spell selection? rejuvenate eidolon can be found on a wand. it's nice to know the spell too. and it's better to use your healing out of combat, buffing is far more efficient than healing.
Keep in mind that I'm not agruing that the archetype is weak, but I'm still not seeing how it is "broken" or overpowered. When you're arguement includes magic items to the build, I don't see that as being any different than a fighter being able to cherry pick magic items to suit his/her build.
The buff spells are nice too, but not overpowering. Especailly when economy of action is considered. When combat starts, casting buffs is time given to the opponent. If he spends two rounds buffing, the barbarian and fighter may have already finished the fight.
Shielded Meld is nice, but I don't feel that it's absurd.
I see what you're saying about wands, but I'm not convinced. That's just another dedicated resource spent only for the eidolon. At least in the situation with my game, the synthesist sure isn't going to make that wand himself. With an INT of 7, it would take forever to get crafting skills, and I doubt his feats would ever be spent on something not related to combat.
it says at least the same size. meaning that the same size is a minimum.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist . The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
bold and italics on key words
in other words, minimum. you can have a large synthesistadverb superl. of little with less as compar.
5.
to the smallest extent, amount, or degree: That's the least important question of all. He talks least.
That's how I read it. I'm also allowing Enlarge Person until the FAQ is updated.
They are over rated. A normal summoner is harder to deal with in my opinion. The summoner on its own is no slouch at casting spells, and then you have to deal with the summoner ripping you a new one. At least with the synthesis I only have one set of actions to deal with.
It is like having to choose to fight a fighter and a wizard or fight a gestalt fighter/wizard.
Hint:Fight the fighter/wizard. It has less ways to hurt you per round.
They are over rated. A normal summoner is harder to deal with in my opinion. The summoner on its own is no slouch at casting spells, and then you have to deal with the summoner ripping you a new one. At least with the synthesis I only have one set of actions to deal with.
It is like having to choose to fight a fighter and a wizard or fight a gestalt fighter/wizard.
Hint:Fight the fighter/wizard. It has less ways to hurt you per round.
You also have to take into consideration feat qualification. Can you qualify for feats with the eidolon's stats or does it have to be your own? If you can qualify for feats as if you were the eidolon, then what do you do when you can no-longer access the eidolon? Your left a bit more naked than a normal summoner.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Excellent retort!
The Fighter's "unique" abilities are
1: Do +1 damage and get +1 to hit every 4 levels (and it isn't even universal, it requires a specific weapon) in a system where enemy HP rises by at LEAST 8 points per level on any credible melee threat
2:+1 on will saves, but only against fear, every 4 levels
3:Move at full speed in medium (and latter heavy) armor and reduce the ACP by one. Effectively a 2 AC boost, as wearing a chain shirt and getting +2 AC some other way is slightly better (1 less ACP) but otherwise the same status wise. Heavy armor without movement penalty is useless because when you get it, special materials+medium armor training does it and AC is starting to lose value. Not to mention a dirt cheep magic item explicitly replicates this feature.
4: Some extra feats. EVERYONE gets feats, and in PF they get even more feats. Unlike the new Ranger or Monk, the Fighter can't ignore requirements (chiefly character level and ability score ones), and is either stuck with multiple trees, or options that are subpar for the heavy feat investment needed (hello TWF). Fighter exclusive feats are also fairly subpar, and not really that fighter exclusive anymore, and many of the feat chains were nerfed to the point they aren't worth bothering with.That's EVERYTHING they get: A few +1s here and there is their entire class and many of these aren't even Fighter exclusive, given out like candy to other classes (Magus, Gunslinger, Wizard, some Cavalier variants and Sorcerer all get extra feats. Magus and Samurai count as fighter for Fighter level requirements on feats. Some archetypes and class feature selections get Armor Training). Remember this is a system where you are EXPECTED to fly at sometime before level 10, something a fighter can't do under his own power.
Synthesist merely gets things melee needs to be viable light flight, a way to actually use their multiple attacks, a way to not be in the enemies face to attack, out of the box.
Hi, meet ZWEIHANDER ZELDA
Male Human Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 10
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +1
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 23. . (+11 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 89 (10d10+20)
Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +9
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +3 Curve Blade, Elven +23/+18 (1d10+16/15-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +6) +12/+7 (1d8+7/20/x3)
Special Attacks Backswing, Overhand Chop, Shattering Strike +3, Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy, Weapon Training: Pole Arms
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18/22, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +16 (+19 Sundering); CMD 29 (32 vs. Sunder)
Feats Critical Focus, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Curve Blade, Elven, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus: Curve Blade, Elven, Improved Critical: Curve Blade, Elven, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Step Up, Weapon Focus: Curve Blade, Elven, Weapon Specialization: Curve Blade, Elven
Skills Acrobatics -4, Climb +8, Escape Artist -4, Fly -4, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (Engineering) +10, Ride -4, Stealth -4, Swim +8
Languages Common
Combat Gear +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +6), +2 Full Plate, +3 Curve Blade, Elven; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Handy Haversack (empty), Ring of Protection, +1
She's a level 10 Fighter. Build using DPR olympic baselines.
If you can give me builds for other melee classes which are able to substantially out-damage Zelda in non-situational melee (read: no Team Evil smiting Paladin, no favored enemy Ranger, etc. etc.) I might consider your point that Fighter is an "AWFUL" melee combatant.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Excellent retort!
The Fighter's "unique" abilities are
1: Do +1 damage and get +1 to hit every 4 levels (and it isn't even universal, it requires a specific weapon) in a system where enemy HP rises by at LEAST 8 points per level on any credible melee threat
2:+1 on will saves, but only against fear, every 4 levels
3:Move at full speed in medium (and latter heavy) armor and reduce the ACP by one. Effectively a 2 AC boost, as wearing a chain shirt and getting +2 AC some other way is slightly better (1 less ACP) but otherwise the same status wise. Heavy armor without movement penalty is useless because when you get it, special materials+medium armor training does it and AC is starting to lose value. Not to mention a dirt cheep magic item explicitly replicates this feature.
4: Some extra feats. EVERYONE gets feats, and in PF they get even more feats. Unlike the new Ranger or Monk, the Fighter can't ignore requirements (chiefly character level and ability score ones), and is either stuck with multiple trees, or options that are subpar for the heavy feat investment needed (hello TWF). Fighter exclusive feats are also fairly subpar, and not really that fighter exclusive anymore, and many of the feat chains were nerfed to the point they aren't worth bothering with.That's EVERYTHING they get: A few +1s here and there is their entire class and many of these aren't even Fighter exclusive, given out like candy to other classes (Magus, Gunslinger, Wizard, some Cavalier variants and Sorcerer all get extra feats. Magus and Samurai count as fighter for Fighter level requirements on feats. Some archetypes and class feature selections get Armor Training). Remember this is a system where you are EXPECTED to fly at sometime before level 10, something a fighter can't do under his own power.
Synthesist merely gets things melee needs to be viable light flight, a way to actually use their multiple attacks, a way to not be in the enemies face to attack, out of the box.
The fighter might fail at some things, but combat is not one of them, and if the player knows the system well he can be good at things fighters are criticized for.
Not everyone gets as many feat as a fighter. That allows people to be good at several things. If you don't know the power of extra feats....
The system also does not expect you to fly by level 10. It only gives you the option to do so, and being able to do so under your own power is also not an assumption. The game is a team game. No one character can do it all.
You really are not comparing a monk to a fighter or any other class are you?
Everything you listed can be countered quiet easily, and has been done so in numerous threads. I am not a fighter fan boi. They could use some love, but not for the things you are mentioning.
Oh, sorry, I forgot the flying creatures with better than human average intelligence and ranged attacks (VERY common at that point) were supposed to stay where the guy with the sharp object can keep hitting them.
You missed the point.
Oh, sorry, I forgot the flying creatures with better than human average intelligence and ranged attacks (VERY common at that point) were supposed to stay where the guy with the sharp object can keep hitting them.You missed the point.
I guess in addition to having a fighter fly of their own will, the expect them to heal them-selves and find magical traps on their own as well.
I guess in addition to having a fighter fly of their own will, the expect them to heal them-selves and find magical traps on their own as well.Oh, sorry, I forgot the flying creatures with better than human average intelligence and ranged attacks (VERY common at that point) were supposed to stay where the guy with the sharp object can keep hitting them.You missed the point.
It's not like fighters are synthesists. ;-)
Oh, sorry, I forgot the flying creatures with better than human average intelligence and ranged attacks (VERY common at that point) were supposed to stay where the guy with the sharp object can keep hitting them.
If this is a problem for any player who is not a noob then he needs to be retrained.
It's not like fighters are synthesists. ;-)I guess in addition to having a fighter fly of their own will, the expect them to heal them-selves and find magical traps on their own as well.Oh, sorry, I forgot the flying creatures with better than human average intelligence and ranged attacks (VERY common at that point) were supposed to stay where the guy with the sharp object can keep hitting them.You missed the point.
Wait, they can find magical traps too?
Having to have someone else do their role for the party to be effective is much different from being unable to do YOUR role ("kill things in melee") because you lack a needed ability ("get in melee distance to the thing") to.
Bow focus for you then? I hear that is getting to be a REALLY nasty focus now for fighters.
A fighter's role is not to kill things in melee either. His role is just to kill things.
If a fighter does not have a ranged weapon*, and that goes for any other class also, that is not a class problem, but a player problem.
This is no different than when people ask, "well what does the fighter do when his weapon is sundered?".
I think to myself if the player has an IQ above 10 he would have made sure to have a backup weapon. If not then he is probably in trouble, but the class does not have a class feature disallowing backup weapons so the player takes the hit on that one.
*or another method to attack at range.
PS:If anyone else wants to chime in it would be nice to list an actual issue, preferably something you have no answer for.
I have nothing to do with the fighter posted above. I only know that the claim of the fighter class can't deal with flyers is false. Now if you want to argue that some players can't deal with a flyer then go right ahead. I won't argue with you there since I had a player not take ranged weapons despite me warning him otherwise. That was not a class issue though.
If we are going to focus on melee then you have to show or least demonstrate it to be true that fighters underperform in melee since 90%+ of the gaming community knows that fighters are good in melee. Until special circumstances such as evil enemies or favored enemies come into play the fighter is most likely to be doing the most damage.
PS:I was not even talking about the archer archetype. I was talking about the regular fighter.
PS2:Flying creatures would constitute a ranged battle, not a melee battle.
|
|
and my point that fighters are terrible melee combatants still stands.
No, I shot it down few posts above. Unless you're going to actually use some math instead of "I think they're terrible melee fighters because they are poor archers".
If your argument is that "Fighters do poor melee damage", well, that's false.
If your argument is that "Fighters aren't mobile enough" it's actually not a "Fighters are terrible melee combatants" argument. It's a "Anybody who doesn't have fly or haste on his/her spell list is a terrible melee combatant" argument, and that's a different story. At which point the counter goes: it's not a PVP one on one game, so your argument is invalid. Also, boots of speed/winged boots.
I will also add the measure of a character is largely how much he can help the party, not how much he can get done without the party. I don't know if Deuxhero has made any arena PvP builds, but a character made to fight one on one, and one made to go adventuring are not built the same way. Of course this also assumes you are in a group where everyone works together.
Oh, sorry, I forgot the flying creatures with better than human average intelligence and ranged attacks (VERY common at that point) were supposed to stay where the guy with the sharp object can keep hitting them.If this is a problem for any player who is not a noob then he needs to be retrained.
Even a new player can build an efficient melee character. It's not that hard.
Even a new player can build an efficient melee character. It's not that hard.Oh, sorry, I forgot the flying creatures with better than human average intelligence and ranged attacks (VERY common at that point) were supposed to stay where the guy with the sharp object can keep hitting them.If this is a problem for any player who is not a noob then he needs to be retrained.
I was speaking to the lack of ranged weapons that duexhero's fighter somehow forget to bring with him.
PS:I guess for deuxhero it is that hard if he uses a fighter. He is claiming it can't be done. I do agree with you that even new people can make a decent melee based character. I am curious as to what DH's GM is doing to make this seem so difficult.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Have to post up an earlier joke I came up with on a similar Fighter vs Eidolon thread (cause Im pretty proud of my joke lol)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Fighter, A Eidolon, and a Monk walk into a bar.
The Fighter flexes and says "I am the best brawler in this bar. I get a ton of feats, I get a bonus from Weapon Training, a bonus from my nifty gloves, and I just got this kick but enchant on my armor that makes me punch even better!"
The Eidolon snickers and says "I'm large and in charge bro! I got 6 claws the size of your head, I can fly, I got SR, a Strength you dream of, and I can charge and attack with all my claws in the blink of an eye. I laugh at your dumb magic items. I got that half-elf over there following me around buffing me every fight."
The Fighter and the Eidolon look at each other for a second and turn to the monk and say together "Hey your fast right?... got get the beer and make it snappy!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Point of the Story: Who cares which is better at DPR... you can both laugh at the monk and make him go buy you beer.
Your welcome for lightening the mood. Continue with your discussion lol.
Even a new player can build an efficient melee character. It's not that hard.
I disagree. I've had new players make high level fighters only to forget to spend half their starting funds and pick up half their feats, causing them to be SEVERELY underpowered. New players, being new, typically don't understand even the simplest of rules (especially with the rules being as scattered as they are).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The archer stuff is irrelevant entirely, as the topic is about Fighters and Synthesists as MELEE combatants, not martial damage dealers.
Your arguements don't make sense to me. The original agruement is that synthesists are more powerful than fighters. You're really not demonstrating that this is true. You're arguing that fighters are ineffective, but you're stance seems to hinge on the whether the fighter can attack with melee weapons. Who cares if the damage being dealt is from melee or ranged weapons? Damage is damage. If the opponent is flying, archery is very relevant. All while the eidolon, needs to fly up to the opponent. If he took that evolution.
Of the core classes, Fighters are the ONLY ones without a built in method (Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric have spells, Paladin, Ranger and Druid can have flying mounts, Barbarian can fly as a Rage Power, Rogue and Bard have UMD and Monk has... High jump and Abundant Step... the Monk's methods are terrible and the Rogue's UMD is not the most reliable either, but they still better than the Fighter's by virtue of existing) of getting at a flying foe to engage in melee without spending 54,000 gp.
Again, this arguement doesn't make sense. Who cares about flying? The fighter can fill the enemy with arrows. And the damage will be significant regarless of magic items bought.
I'm not sure how being unable to actually REACH a foe to melee it can ever NOT make you a terrible melee combatant.
The fighter will reach out with an arrow. Or many arrows, with rapid shot, multi shot, deadly aim . . . . .
There are TONS of bad feats and many, like Weapon Focus, are made prominent to trick you into taking them.
Weapon Focus is bad? An additional 5% chance to hit is bad? For a class that really doesn't need to be picky about feats? Granted, it's not a MUST have, but it's not bad. Hardly a trap.
As a side note, we played again this week with the synthesist I posted on the first page. We also have a TH fighter in the group. Granted we're only at 2nd level, but the only really big advantage the synthesist has is the extra amount of HP. He really doesn't steal the show in combat. And when he's playing as a tank, his spells are irrelevant. When he's surrounded by enemies, he's not going to risk the AOCs to cast spells. He just relies on Life Link to keep him up. In the mean time, the fighter and the barbarian are being just as effective.
Have to post up an earlier joke I came up with on a similar Fighter vs Eidolon thread (cause Im pretty proud of my joke lol)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Fighter, A Eidolon, and a Monk walk into a bar.
The Fighter flexes and says "I am the best brawler in this bar. I get a ton of feats, I get a bonus from Weapon Training, a bonus from my nifty gloves, and I just got this kick but enchant on my armor that makes me punch even better!"
The Eidolon snickers and says "I'm large and in charge bro! I got 6 claws the size of your head, I can fly, I got SR, a Strength you dream of, and I can charge and attack with all my claws in the blink of an eye. I laugh at your dumb magic items. I got that half-elf over there following me around buffing me every fight."
The Fighter and the Eidolon look at each other for a second and turn to the monk and say together "Hey your fast right?... got get the beer and make it snappy!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Point of the Story: Who cares which is better at DPR... you can both laugh at the monk and make him go buy you beer.
Your welcome for lightening the mood. Continue with your discussion lol.
I like it. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even a new player can build an efficient melee character. It's not that hard.I disagree. I've had new players make high level fighters only to forget to spend half their starting funds and pick up half their feats, causing them to be SEVERELY underpowered. New players, being new, typically don't understand even the simplest of rules (especially with the rules being as scattered as they are).
He did not say high level fighters since noobs generally dont start off in high level games. :)
I will also add the measure of a character is largely how much he can help the party, not how much he can get done without the party. I don't know if Deuxhero has made any arena PvP builds, but a character made to fight one on one, and one made to go adventuring are not built the same way. Of course this also assumes you are in a group where everyone works together.Fighter is actually a lot better in arena builds, where the lack of anything outside of "fighting" (badly) doesn't hurt as much.
Not sure how "made to go adventuring" changes that they are dependent on another party member, who may very well not have the spell they need, spending their actions and slots, to make it so the fighter can even do the role they are supposed to fill.
The archer stuff is irrelevant entirely, as the topic is about Fighters and Synthesists as MELEE combatants, not martial damage dealers.
Of the core classes, Fighters are the ONLY ones without a built in method (Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric have spells, Paladin, Ranger and Druid can have flying mounts, Barbarian can fly as a Rage Power, Rogue and Bard have UMD and Monk has... High jump and Abundant Step... the Monk's methods are terrible and the Rogue's UMD is not the most reliable either, but they still better than the Fighter's by virtue of existing) of getting at a flying foe to engage in melee without spending 54,000 gp.
I'm not sure how being unable to actually REACH a foe to melee it can ever NOT make you a terrible melee combatant.
Not even sure the argument fighters are newb friendly is valid. There are TONS of bad feats and many, like Weapon Focus, are made prominent to trick you into taking them.
I don't think it matters how a fighter gets to you as long as he does it. It is not like you will be any less dead because he used a potion of fly.
PS:Fighters can use UMD. There are even a few builds with UMD based fighters and fighters that craft things such as celestial armor. :)
Duexhero every time you post you only show us your lack of system mastery. As a fighter with a lot of feats I can just take skill focus(UMD) and not even pump charisma. Monk's can not use abundant step to get to a foe, and jump only gets them one punch(if they are that low to the ground). I think the fighter, that is not even focused on a bow can do more damage over the course of a full round attack.
All of your arguments that fighters can't handle flying foes are falling apart. It seems all you have to go on is your belief that fighters don't have access to flight. If you can't figure out how to get past that speed bump I can assure you the problem is not the fighter.
^^They aren't any better at it than any other class (Rogue at least gets it for free without blowing a trait and has skill points to invest in it)
^Read my post, I said Abundant Step and High Jump sucked. My point is they exist, which is more than can be said for a fighter's ability to reach out of reach foes.
They are not better at what UMD? The fighter does not need to be better at it. He only needs to be good enough.
They might suck, but the fighter in an actual game can still handle flying foes and foes on the ground better than a monk in most situations.
Like I said if you can't figure out how to get to flying foes which is pretty easy in PF that is not a fighter issue. In an actual game this is a blip on the radar. The fighter can craft celestial armor. He can use potions. He can buy magic items. He can boost his UMD to use scrolls. That is just off the top of my head. X not being a class feature is not the same as, can't do X in game. As long as X is not a problem in a game, then it is a non issue.
In short we are still waiting for a real issue instead of a theorycrafted issue that is not even true in theory. You say the fighter can't reach the foe. I say the player using that fighter needs to come to the boards and get some help if stabbing someone(a flyer) in the face is really that important to them.
PS:Like I said, the fighter has its issues, but it is nothing you have named, which so far is stabbing a flying foe in the face.
To UMD is a DC 20 (for a wand, even higher for scrolls) you can't take ten on with penalties for failure.
Being generous and giving the fighter 10 charisma means he can't UMD consistently till level 16 at minimum (10 if you blew a real feat). Even then it slows entering combat down, taking an action, while rage is a free action to start, having wings naturally or a mount with wings is no action, air walk, continual flight and wildshape (to name the most prominent) last long enough to be cast in advance.
And how can the fighter craft Celestial Armor short of blowing ANOTHER feat that I don't think is even a combat feat and waiting till after a real caster can take MA&A..
It's all WBLmancery, not class features, anyways. EVERYONE has the same money past level 1 (except someone who took the Noble Scion and one prc in the new book), and crafters (not fighters) can stretch it farther. Additionally, Fighters are very gear dependnent (they are expected to have magic weapons and belts of strength to even hit a CR appropriate monster, while casters really only need a headband and potentially a few spells that are dirt cheep by comparison) and blowing money like that will cut into that at some point
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you a d20 roll enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
You can't take 10, but it is not for the reason you mentioned. It is because UMD specifically says you can't take 10.
With that aside a 16 is very easy for a fighter to get so if wand is the goal the fighter has an 80% success rate with one feat. If he uses a trait it goes up to 85 percent. If he puts a 12 into charisma it goes up to 90%, and unless he rolls a 1 and fails the check he can try again. A 1 is a 5% chance of not using wand X for an entire day, but he can still use potions and other means to fly so it is hardly an issue. With that said I don't like the idea of buying a wand that is higher than 1st level because they are so expensive.
Charisma starts off at 10. I would hardly call that generous. Dumping stats is not need to make a decent character.
Don't try to shame someone into not using a feat. When you have as many feats as a fighter using one for noncombat purposes is not really a loss, and since if it helps the fighter take care of hitting flying things in the face up close and in person then that makes it a well spend feat.
As for the crafting that is also not a bad idea, and if I had said the fighter can get the craft to do it then you would have harped on that so I just bypassed it and when straight to the fighter. You can complain but the point is that your issue is now a non-issue.
You can use WBL-mancey all you want. You said it could not be done, and now you have been shown that it can. Don't try to move to the goalpost to the fighter can't cast spells. Like I said before the fighter using a potion or any other method to fly does not make you any less dead.
All that really matters is that in an actual game it can be done. So now that fighters can hit things in the face instead of shoot them in the face, how do they suck in melee?
How did this turn into a lengthy discussion on whether or not fighters suck in combat?
IMO the Synthesist vs. Fighter discussion is not really benefitting from specific build comparisons, and thought up examples of encounters they might meet. We can always make a second build that is better than the first one, in some regard.
Personally I don't like the Synthesist much (though I have a perverse fascination with the class), and the relative melee-strength compared to the fighter is a part of it. The synthesist is too close to fighter in melee power, whether on par og besting the fighter depending on builds. I don't mind a casting class to be able to be melee focused, but I shouldn't be a given, without an affect to their casting capabilities.
I don't like the mechanical solution of returning to the old-time druid. The PF druid is lovely. While he can become a solid melee combatant, it requires him to sacrifice a significant portion of his spellcasting power to get reasonable physical ability scores. The Synthesist on the other hand is encouraged to dump stat his physicals.
Apart from dumpstatting, I really dislike the level dump potential, the class provides. Many caster could do worse than taking a single level of synthesist to be able to choose 7's in every physical score. Heck, going venerable age, mental stats are boosted through the roof, while those 1's in the physicals are ignored since we wear our synthesist.
Synthesists themselves can get a lot from level dipping. I have a cheesy build going, where a venerable min-maxed synthesist get +9 bonus to AC from a single lvl of monk.
While potential cheese luckily can be disallowed by the gm, and such a build is problematic in real play, as it doesn't come into it's right until midlevels, I still see a problem.
The more mechanical choices we get that allows us to pick and choose between optimal and suboptimal builds, the more the face of the game changes. It is simply difficult to disregard the knowledge that some feat/classes/abilities are so much worse than other.
|
If a DM runs a game that requires players to fly just to participate, purposefully gimping the martial classes, the problem isn't with the player.
The problem isn't that the fighter is bad, or that the summoner is OP, but that a martial class is being punished for playing his class. It has been proven that fighters deal excellent damage, have high accuracy, and have good ground-level mobility. If a fighter can't have a weapon to deal with flying combatants, why should the summoner be assumed to have the flight evolution?
The point is... well, there really isn't one. The classes are fine, fighters are great combatants, and so are summoners.
in my opinion. A player who knows what they are doing with stats can make a fighter as powerful as the summoner and his eidelon--or at least very close.
the problem comes down when you have a newbie or someone who is not good at optimizing. Not picking the right feat combo as a fighter can make you weak and you therefore have to know what you are doing. Building a powerful eidelon is pretty easy.
I have played in a scenario with two 7th level human fighters--both 2 hand fighters. the difference between them was night and day. One was a machine--the other a helpless baby.