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Beyond the Doomsday Door (GM Reference)


Shattered Star


Shards of Sin
Curse of the Lady's Light
The Asylum Stone
Beyond the Doomsday Door
Into the Nightmare Rift
The Dead Heart of Xin


Just got my PDF and had a quick flick through, does it seem to anybody else that it's VERY possible for the players to lose the Shard of Envy?

Spoiler:
If Ardathanatus is killed before the Doomsday Door is closed, his body is claimed by Yamasoth and dragged to Sekatar-Seraktis. There are suggestions on how to prevent this, but in the heat of battle players might just miss them. This puts the shard beyond their grasp and effectively ends the campaign. There's no mention of this possibility in the "Concluding the Adventure" section.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Torquar wrote:

Just got my PDF and had a quick flick through, does it seem to anybody else that it's VERY possible for the players to lose the Shard of Envy?

** spoiler omitted **

Best way to handle this is to have him drop the shard on the ground as he's pulled away. It's not perfect, but if you do something like let the PCs make a last second grab for it, or if you simply have the portal/doors close on his arm so it chops that off while he had the shard in his hand... that's a pretty cool end to it all.

Chances of that kind of end coming around SHOULD be pretty remote, though... the adventure's built so that there's a LOT of "safetys" in place to prevent such a development... but if it happens, simply having the shard stay behind as the only remnant of Ardathanatus is kinda cool.

Grand Lodge Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think, if that happened, I'd have Ardathanatus' body dragged away with the shard. Moments later, the shard (and only the shard) gets spat back out into Golarion, leaving the players guessing as to whether Yamasoth wants them to have it or whether it couldn't be transported or the magics weren't compatible with Sekatar Seraktis or whatever. I'm very fond of leaving my players guessing and making up their own minds about the nebulous motives of antagonists.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Okay, am I the only one who reads the title of this module... and then the concept of the Doomsday Door and thinks of that episode of The Real Ghostbusters? It's called Knock, Knock.

Subway tunnel excavators uncover a mysterious ancient door buried far beneath New York City. Upon the door is a demonic face that intones, with an echoing voice:

"Do Not Open Until Doomsday!"

Of course, its dire warning is ignored. Bad things are behind the door.

I love that episode.

Grand Lodge

I noticed that Ardathanatus does not have Heavy Armor Proficiency. Since clerics do not gain that as starting feats, his attack bonus should be significantly lower. Which feat would you trade out for this one, or am I missing something?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have a great interest in tracking down a sound file of a possible song coming from Windsong Abbey to play while the players explore. If anyone has any suggestions please post them here. I'll continue to look.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aeshuura wrote:
I noticed that Ardathanatus does not have Heavy Armor Proficiency. Since clerics do not gain that as starting feats, his attack bonus should be significantly lower. Which feat would you trade out for this one, or am I missing something?

Oops...

Either his Improved Initiative or Weapon Focus feat should be swapped out for Heavy Armor Proficiency. Improved Initiative is less impactful to the stats, so that's my suggestion.

Grand Lodge

Thanks James! He is a cool villain though, to be sure!

Qadira

I am not very expirienced with high level play (to me, 14th is very high) so my judgment may be skewd here, but Ardathanatus seems like a TPK waiting to happen.... this guy is PACKED with awesome.


Drakli wrote:

Okay, am I the only one who reads the title of this module... and then the concept of the Doomsday Door and thinks of that episode of The Real Ghostbusters? It's called Knock, Knock.

Subway tunnel excavators uncover a mysterious ancient door buried far beneath New York City. Upon the door is a demonic face that intones, with an echoing voice:

"Do Not Open Until Doomsday!"

Of course, its dire warning is ignored. Bad things are behind the door.

I love that episode.

OMG I also had this flash back, I just couldn't recall which episode it was! I read through it briefly, I try to scan all new material, were not in this adventure yet, so were safe.

As for the crystal, its a magic item, its possible it would just drop, would appear on its own. If they miss it, I would have a animal companion save it, or a npc , over all its what ever feels good to you as a gm, and not to clique with your group.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Lord Snow wrote:

I am not very expirienced with high level play (to me, 14th is very high) so my judgment may be skewd here, but Ardathanatus seems like a TPK waiting to happen.... this guy is PACKED with awesome.

He is indeed intended to be a pretty tough fight... ESPECIALLY for parties who don't stop along the way to the bottom of the dungeon to recruit a lot of friends and allies to help in the fight to come.


ok i'm missing something, how does he get the proficiency with halberd?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Pendagast wrote:
ok i'm missing something, how does he get the proficiency with halberd?

It's the favored weapon of Yamasoth.

Qadira

I am reading the article on the Qlippoth, and I saw a mention that the Abyss is so big that it can be considerd infinte.

I don't get this. Is it infinite or not? Is it's size constant?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Lord Snow wrote:

I am reading the article on the Qlippoth, and I saw a mention that the Abyss is so big that it can be considerd infinte.

I don't get this. Is it infinite or not? Is it's size constant?

Good luck finding somebody alive and sane who can answer that :)

Qadira

I thought about it for a bit, and decided to rule it like this:

"There is no creature capable of crossing the entire Abyss in it's life time"

since there are creatures (like Qlippoth) who existed from the beginning of the multiverse, that would hint that

"Even a creature moving at the speed of light since the beginning of time and space didn't manage to cross the abyss yet".

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM Jeff wrote:
I have a great interest in tracking down a sound file of a possible song coming from Windsong Abbey to play while the players explore...

Well, look what I found! Complete with sound file and all.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lord Snow wrote:

I am reading the article on the Qlippoth, and I saw a mention that the Abyss is so big that it can be considerd infinte.

I don't get this. Is it infinite or not? Is it's size constant?

Look at it this way:

The Material Plane encompasses a region as large as the universe—the Material Plane essentially IS the universe. AKA: The universe we all live in.

The Material Plane is contained within a shell of layered elemental planes (going from the inside out: air, water, earth, fire).

That sphere of elemental planes is itself contained at the center of the outer sphere (which is the Astral Plane). And the inner surface of the outer sphere is where the outer planes are.

The Abyss is an outer plane that winds through the "ground" of that outer sphere.

So, imagine a peach buried at the center of a mile-wide sphere of dirt. The pit of that peach (which should actually be a lot smaller, like the size of a grain of sand) is the Material Plane encased in the elemental planes; the pulp of the peach is the Astral Plane, and the peach's skin/rind is the surface on which the outer planes are located (on the inside of it). The ground radiating out from the buried peach is the stratum through which the realms of the Abyss wind. That sphere is finite (it's a mile across), but compared to the grain of sand at the center of the peach that represents the entire known universe... the Abyss is so incredibly huge that it might as well be infinite. Even though it's not.


Revan wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
ok i'm missing something, how does he get the proficiency with halberd?
It's the favored weapon of Yamasoth.

Curious, The Elf didn't start out as a follower of Yamasoth. He was a follower of Pharasma, yes?

So question then: Let's say a cleric is a follower of Desna, (or some other diety that has a favored weapon that the cleric class doesn't normally have access to) and then changes religion like this fellow.

Now I always assumed the favored diety weapon came from training up as a cleric of that faith. Just like learning how to use all martial weapons was learned as one became a fighter.

But If he leaves one faith and joins another, how does he gain the new proficiency and there by lose the old one? Ie can he no longer use a star knife efficiently, but suddenly gains the full working knowledge of the spiked chain?

OR does he retain the proficiency of starknife, a weapon he has always used, as spends some time (and possibly a feat) the learn the new favored weapon?

Essentially, is the proficiency divine knowledge granted like spells? Or is it training?

Grand Lodge

That's a good question... I have never thought of that... I would think that to explain the change, the weapon no longer "feels" right. Like losing inspiration, and gaining the inspiration to feel comfortable with the new weapon.

Though I am curious what was originally intended?


I would consider that take feasible, I never really thought of it either, which made me ask the question :>

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Pendagast wrote:

Curious, The Elf didn't start out as a follower of Yamasoth. He was a follower of Pharasma, yes?

So question then: Let's say a cleric is a follower of Desna, (or some other diety that has a favored weapon that the cleric class doesn't normally have access to) and then changes religion like this fellow.

Now I always assumed the favored diety weapon came from training up as a cleric of that faith. Just like learning how to use all martial weapons was learned as one became a fighter.

But If he leaves one faith and joins another, how does he gain the new proficiency and there by lose the old one? Ie can he no longer use a star knife efficiently, but suddenly gains the full working knowledge of the spiked chain?

OR does he retain the proficiency of starknife, a weapon he has always used, as spends some time (and possibly a feat) the learn the new favored weapon?

Essentially, is the proficiency divine knowledge granted like spells? Or is it training?

That's a part of the game that's not really covered by the core rules, but I don't have a problem having a cleric's bonus weapon proficiency get swapped out as part of the process when you switch faiths. Just think of it as part of the whole "learning a new religion" thing—if you can abandon one deity for another, there's no reason you can't abandon one feat for another. Whether it's divinely granted or trained.

(Of course, if you want specific rules for retraining feats for PCs, you'll have to hold on a bit longer for Ultimate Campaign—it's my understanding that there'll be some rules for that in there as well.)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aeshuura wrote:

That's a good question... I have never thought of that... I would think that to explain the change, the weapon no longer "feels" right. Like losing inspiration, and gaining the inspiration to feel comfortable with the new weapon.

Though I am curious what was originally intended?

What's originally intended is that when he switched religions, he lost his old proficiency and gained the new one.


Reading the stats for the cleric of Zon Kuthon, who is LN, with apparently the ability to channel Positive Energy -- is this a mistake? According to the CRB, neutral clerics of an evil deity still have to channel negative energy.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Reading the stats for the cleric of Zon Kuthon, who is LN, with apparently the ability to channel Positive Energy -- is this a mistake? According to the CRB, neutral clerics of an evil deity still have to channel negative energy.

Yeah, just reached that part of the adventure and wondered the same thing myself, especially since one of my PCs wants to take Gein Kafog as a cohort. Perhaps he can channel positive energy since he's a heretic of Zon-Kuthon's faith instead of a true cleric of the Midnight Lord?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Reading the stats for the cleric of Zon Kuthon, who is LN, with apparently the ability to channel Positive Energy -- is this a mistake? According to the CRB, neutral clerics of an evil deity still have to channel negative energy.

He can channel positive energy; it's not a mistake, although it DOES go against what the Core Rulebook says. If you want this cleric to comply with the Core Rulebook, that's fine and it's an easy change to make, but in the development of the adventure, I felt it made sense for the character and his near heretical take on his religion to support that heresy by bending the rules.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Reading the stats for the cleric of Zon Kuthon, who is LN, with apparently the ability to channel Positive Energy -- is this a mistake? According to the CRB, neutral clerics of an evil deity still have to channel negative energy.
He can channel positive energy; it's not a mistake, although it DOES go against what the Core Rulebook says. If you want this cleric to comply with the Core Rulebook, that's fine and it's an easy change to make, but in the development of the adventure, I felt it made sense for the character and his near heretical take on his religion to support that heresy by bending the rules.

That cleric just went from incredibly interesting to even more incredibly interesting. :)

Spoiler:
Between him and how things turned out with Laori Vaus in our CotCT game, I've got a lot of stuff to work with now for that mythic-ish Zon-Kuthon/Dou-Bral campaign I want to run one day!

Cheliax

what are the odds of seeing a downloadable PDF containing the "800 words on speech mannerisms of Redcaps" that were cut?
I'm seeing tons of use for fluff like that.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
increddibelly wrote:

what are the odds of seeing a downloadable PDF containing the "800 words on speech mannerisms of Redcaps" that were cut?

I'm seeing tons of use for fluff like that.

100%

Check the other thread.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Looking at the maps for this and the previous adventures. IS the scale on the maps correct? 1 square = 10feet makes the dungeon huge in size! Doors alone are 8 feet wide, makes sense in part 5 but not in the parts up to now.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Cat-thulhu wrote:
Looking at the maps for this and the previous adventures. IS the scale on the maps correct? 1 square = 10feet makes the dungeon huge in size! Doors alone are 8 feet wide, makes sense in part 5 but not in the parts up to now.

The scale is indeed correct. That said, the size of the doors is somewhat exaggerated so that you can see them—it's better to have large and obvious doors, in my opinion. If you're mapping the dungeon out with 5-foot-squares, you can make them normal width for Medium creatures if you want...

...but remember, many Thassilonian ruins are built big. Many were built by giants, after all.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

My group polymorphed Ardathanatos into a frog right in front of the doors, then beat on the frog until it died (they never picked up on any clues that he might be redeemable, and frankly would probably not have done it even if they had). Then the door opened and Yamasoth picked Ardathanatos up and took him away. Oops. We had to retcon this as it was clearly not an acceptable outcome.

My player really disliked the door-opening scenario. If there had been some hint that Ardathanatos' death was a tactical problem (as opposed to a moral problem) it would have helped, but we didn't encounter any. So it's just two rounds of "there's nothing you can do, you lose" plus a side dish of "you're too low level for this scenario." I think it came close to ending the campaign.

This scenario reminded me of "The Infernal Syndrome" from Council of Thieves (no spoilers here I hope) in that the module would be more interesting if the PCs took it very slowly and looked at everything carefully, but there are a lot of internal cues that there is time pressure--my player picked up on those early and played it as a do-or-die run. So the PCs went up two levels in one day, plus they never had time to really look at things, plus they skipped as much as they possibly could. As a result much of the really neat stuff in the module didn't get any chance to be neat. It was frustrating. I'm not sure what's to be done about this.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

We very rarely actually put really hard time limits on our adventures, and if you know that your players are prone to picking up on those types of things, it's really important for you as the GM to work against the players' expectations. When you notice them interpreting events such that they feel that they're on a hard time limit... don't be afraid to simply tell them flat out "you're not on a hard time limit, you know." It can certainly break immersion to do this, I suppose... but if the other option is remaining silent and then letting the players miss out on some content you'd really been hoping they'd pick up on, it's a small price to pay.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

How can Ardathanatus be caught by Yashamoth (in the event he dies or loses consciousness) when he has freedom of movement on himself?


It's the abyss baby. Law doesn't apply there.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
Major_Blackhart wrote:
It's the abyss baby. Law doesn't apply there.

Yeah i got something along the lines as well, mine was "since Yasamoth gives him the ability to cast the spell he can dismiss it even if the spell isn't dismissable" kinda like pulling the plug on the spell.

Taldor

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

There is a ring of spell storing in area C2 that has a Breath of Life and Cure Light Wounds in it. So this would make it a major spell storing ring, which sells for 200,000 gp.

Is this correct, or should it just be a regular spell storing and drop the cure light wounds? :)

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules Subscriber

I would like to ask someone who already dmed this, if it would be a huge problem, if I just make the maps 1 square = 5 feet, or are there any encounters which might suffer from this?!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I could imagine the final encounter (among others) getting very cramped if you use 5-foot squares. Same thing for the tombs' mummies (E10), or the drake lair E1. Before this, the part of the abbey with the ettins (A15) may also be too tight for them.

Taldor

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

There's a fight with a giant that would be extremely difficult. Plus there are a lot of large monsters that could make combats VERY static in terms of getting through halls.

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