Bodyguard / Tank Build for PFS


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Lantern Lodge

I'm looking for build recommendations on a character who spends all day protecting squishies and otherwise keeping his party alive by being in the way.

The traditional "tank" role in online strategy games is generally defined by two key elements: being able to survive everything your enemies can throw at you, and forcing them to throw it at you instead of your allies. The latter is significantly easier in video games where you're often fighting programmed NPCs with predictable behavior which can be taken advantage of just by standing closer to them than your wizard. In Pathfinder, it takes a bit more work.

Right out of the gate, I would like to firmly discourage Fighter builds, for the simple reason that no matter how high your AC and HP are, a failed save is a failed tank. As a result, I feel like Monks (perhaps Flowing or Many Styles) and Paladins (Oath of Loyalty and/or Divine Defender?) are much more appropriate options, as they can both withstand physical attacks relatively well while also sporting excellent saves across the board.

However, making an indestructible character isn't very difficult. The challenge is having all that defense help the party, either directly (by actually forcing enemies to attack you) or indirectly (by being so much of a bother to enemies that they have to deal with you if they want to move/cast/etc at all).

I already have a general idea that feats like Stand Still and Step Up are going to make an appearance in this. Disruptive would be fantastic if it weren't Fighter-only (which I'm hesitant to play for aforementioned reasons).

Really just anything you can think of and why. The ultimate goal here is A) to make enemies have to deal with you and B) to have enough defenses (including saves) that they can't.


I'm playing a flowing/sacred mountain monk and really enjoying it, this is not in PFS though.

I am doing high dex, otherwise pump con and wis of course. Feats are finesse, combat reflexes, vicious stomp, then into crane style chain. Bodyguard might be useful as a bonus feat, but of course one problem is that allies won't always be adjacent. That's the nice thing about redirect... you can use it on any enemy you threaten at level 4.

Vicious stomp is particularly fun, though it does get to be a LOT of rolling... poor you. You trip a guy, aoo him on the fall, then aoo again when he gets back up. Each aoo hit forces a reflex save, and so does the redirect (if that's how you tripped him). And of course you can trip during a flurry, so it's potentially a LOT of AOOs.

One warning: your flat footed AC sucks, so I might recommend http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/defensive-strategist-torag
also http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/bullied is good for this, since your AOO hits don't get full bab.

Keep in mind that if you do dex based, you'll have pretty much no damage until you can pick up an Agile AOMF for 5k. I actually went through that period, since we started at level 1 in my campaign, but survived it. Like most dex-based meleer's, it'd be good for a GM toon starting at mid levels.


Also, if you are impatient for crane wing, dip a level in unarmed fighter. I'm debating doing that at level 7 for my monk... currently played him through level 5.

Lantern Lodge

The key will be reach weapons and trip. You can then prevent enemies from moving past you and engaging allies in melee. Position allies behind you so they gain a partial cover bonus. Also, many PFS scenarios are narrow/cramped and a reach weapons allows you to strike over martial heroes while still protecting the squishies behid you.

Quick Builds:

Inquisitor X/Barbarian 1 or 2:

Inquistior (Spellbreaker/Preacher/)/Barbarian (Armored Hulk)
Race: Half-Orc (Tusked Trait so you threaten within 5ft.)

Traits: Magical Knack (Inquisitor)
Barbarian of the Society

Domain: Destruction (Rage)

Stats:
Strength: 18 (+2 race)
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 7

Weapon: Naginata (eventually +1 keen or +2)
Armor: O-Yoroi

Feats: 1st (Barbarian): Power Attack
3rd: Extra Rage or Combat Reflexes
5th: Combat Reflexes or Extra Rage
7th: Lunge

Other: If you take 2 in Barbarian, select the superstitious rage power

Tactics: 1st Round cast Divine Favor (standard), Barbarian Rage (swift, Judgement (swift). Your Attack bonus will now be par with martial classes but you will be doing more damage. Use Lunge to strike foes and still gain an AoO the next turn. Rage paired with superstitious and the Spellbreaker's Strong-Willed will make you near immune to mind-affecting spells. Since you aren't going to be positioning yourself for flanks teamwork feats are of little use.

Samurai X:

Race: Human or Half Orc

Traits: Adopted (tusked) [human] or Indomitable Faith
Reactionary

Stats:
Str: 18 (+2 race)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7

Weapon: Naginata (eventually +1 keen or +2)
Armor: O-Yoroi

Order: Ronin

Feats: 1st: Power Attack (for human start feat selection early)
3rd: Combat Relfexes
5th: Weapon Focus (Naginata)
6th: Weapon Spec. (Naginata)
7th: Lunge

Tactics: The Ronin's Order Ability paired with Resolve makes him one of the most resiliant classes in the game. Pairing that with the Challenge ability to RP non-metagame GMs into attacking you effectively means aggro.

Lantern Lodge

@oneplus999

Very good ideas, thank you. I definitely like the idea of a Dex-based Monk with Agile and Stand Still. That's a lot of AoOs and a lot of enemies not going anywhere. In fact, focusing entirely on Combat Maneuvers, one could dump Strength and just never bother to properly attack anything.

However, such an AoO-focused build without reach is quickly defeated by an opponent simply 5-foot stepping away and then doing their business as usual, and it seems like Fighter has the only solutions for that (Pin Down and the Brawler archetype), unless I've missed something.

Then there's the issue of creatures Huge+ that are immune to your trips and repositions entirely, and flying creatures which can just focus your allies from above. Bodyguard seems like a good fall-back for those situations, especially with the Helpful trait (with adopted) for that +4.

Lantern Lodge

Aveldaxis wrote:
Then there's the issue of creatures Huge+ that are immune to your trips and repositions entirely, and flying creatures which can just focus your allies from above.

For these creatures simply kill them lol. PFS has few instances (except at higher tiers) where larger creatures become an issue. They are much rarer than tripable opponents. If your whole team focus fires them and you position yourself right in the creature's face doing great DPR, there's no reason the creature would push past you and strike the your allies. It's only when you stand ont he battlefield doing little DPR that opponents are likely to ignore you.

Lantern Lodge

@kaisc006

I feel like there's way too much of a focus on damage output here. These builds are definitely durable, and the reach helps a lot with the problem of casters just 5-foot stepping out of your useful zone, but I feel that feats like Power Attack are just not in the right direction and could be spent on more lockdown options. We have DPR, every party always has tons of DPR, I specifically don't want to compete on that stage at all. I'll certainly never make myself a more appetizing target with my damage than, say, our optimized archer.

Lantern Lodge

Aveldaxis wrote:
I feel like there's way too much of a focus on damage output here. These builds are definitely durable, and the reach helps a lot with the problem of casters just 5-foot stepping out of your useful zone, but I feel that feats like Power Attack are just not in the right direction and could be spent on more lockdown options.

DPR is aggro in Pathfinder, especially PFS games, and the key to being a successful tank. GMs are most likely to target you if you're slaying everything. What makes you a tank is unlike other DPR builds you sacrifice a small ammount of damage output for survivability and battlefield control.

If you're standing on the battlefield with upper 30 AC using Combat Expertise and such yet not hitting or killing anything, monsters will simply ignore you.

Lantern Lodge

@kaisc006

But in sacrificing damage output for defenses, I immediately stop being the priority target. Any enemy with a brain, or even without, is going to realize that the ranger behind me is doing twice my DPR (or more) and has a fraction of my AC and HP. Just by looking at us. Clever NPCs will see our party approaching and immediately establish that, in fact. It'll only become more obvious as the fight goes on.

You can't say "DPR draws aggro" and then say "sacrifice DPR for defenses." Why would they hit me instead of the guys who didn't sacrifice DPR for defenses? They wouldn't.

However, reach weapons and trip is a good direction that you took, and your point about there being a minimum of untrippable PFS enemies is true.

Lantern Lodge

Another sort of interesting option is going for Oath: Loyalty on a Paladin with Bodyguard and the Helpful trait for a +4 to ally AC per Aid Another AoO and a +4 to their AC and +4 to their saves 1/day at first level. The "be unkillable and then make everyone around you also unkillable" approach I suppose. Enemies would either continue to get intercepted by all the defensive bonuses you're giving your allies, or realize that you're the source of it and try to aggro you down (unsuccessfully).

Any thoughts on this?

Lantern Lodge

Aveldaxis wrote:
You can't say "DPR draws aggro" and then say "sacrifice DPR for defenses." Why would they hit me instead of the guys who didn't sacrifice DPR for defenses?

Because you're the one in his face while the Ranger is far away. As stated there is no way to aggro monsters, however by making yourself a dangerous target while possibily not the most dangerous is much more effective than being harmless but impossible to kill.

If the GM wants his minions to run past you and kill the archer let him. These builds benefit from AoO. Plus you are sacrificing a very small ammount of DPR for defenses. You are still going to do fantastic DPR, just you won't be a glass cannon.

Finally, archers are overatted. Yes they get tons of attacks but DPR wise pale in comparison to a 2H melee. They pull away in the DPR race at higher levels which you don't see in PFS.

Lantern Lodge

@kaisc006

I don't really want to argue with you because it isn't going to help me with this at all. I've already explained why that isn't a direction I want to go. Sorry :/

Lantern Lodge

Aveldaxis wrote:
I don't really want to argue with you because it isn't going to help me with this at all. I've already explained why that isn't a direction I want to go. Sorry :/

Alright np. Good luck :)

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'll share a build I've been aching to try out for while. Gives great defense and huge damage to back it up

Order of the Dragon Cavalier Strategist/Honour Guard:

Human: Favoured Class: Human bonus to Banner
Str 18 (+2 form 8 &12 bonuses)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13 (+1 from level 4 bonus)
Wis 11
Cha 7

Order of the Dragon Cavalier Strategist/Honour Guard
1: Cavalier: Power Attack, Mounted Combat Tactician: Paired Opportunists
2: Cavalier:
3: Cavalier: Honour Guard Feat: Bodyguard ; Feat: Combat Reflexes
4: Cavalier:
5: Cavalier: Combat Expertise
6: Cavalier:Bonus Feat: Swift Aid
7: Cavalier:Gang up /Stand Still
8: Cavalier:
9: Cavalier Ride by Attack Tactician: Broken Wing Gambit
10: Cavalier:
11: Cavalier: Spirited Charge
12: Cavalier: Bonus Feat: Wheeling Charge

Trait: Aid allies (Shadow Lodge) Aid allies +3 instead of +2

Horse Mount
1-Combat Reflexes
2-Bodyguard
5-In Harms Way
8-Dragon Style
10-Power Attack

Here's how it works:

Level 1: You have 18 strength, heavy armour, an armoured full power druid companion and a two handed weapon with power attack. You are a terror. When you Challenge someone you can give an adjacent ally +1 AC.

Level 3: If any ally is attacked within your reach use bodyguard to add 7(!) (2 Aid other, +1 Aid Allies, +3 Order of the Dragon +1 Honour Guard) to their AC 3 times per round. Your horse can do the same adding 2 to you or adding 2 more to the ally. This stacks with your challenge bonus.

Level 6: You can add 5 to an allies attack if they are next to you as a swift action, or preemptively increase their AC by 5. Your Challenge damage is becoming amazing, and everyone gets +2 to hit on charges thanks to your banner. If you cop a beat down have your mount use In Harms Way to take the damage, then use Mounted Combat to negate the hit.

Level 9: Swift action Paired Opportunists and Broken Wing Gambit to the party at the start of combat, or even better Drill Instructor it beforehand if you get the opportunity. Now anytime someone is attacked -everyone- gets attacks of opportunity on the enemy. And your Bodyguard bonus is now an 8 bonus to AC. Your mount can now charge through allies and difficult terrain, and you have the versatility of Ride By Attack to back it up. The Banner is now at +3

Level 12: You now have all the Mounted Feats you need. So you can slog it and be a bro on foot with your horse at your side, or ride around causing carnage, as the situation demands. You also have amazing synergy in Warding Charge. Any time your ward is attacked you get a free charge, that can include a 90 degree turn, ignores allies as well as difficult terrain. Use this to get -two- Spirited Charges a turn. The Banner is now +5.

Instead of stacking your defense which makes your enemies more likely to attack your squishier friends, you stack your friends defenses, while pumping out big melee damage. They have to attack you, because everyone else is unhittable, and your AC is pretty great anyway, even if you do get hit you can use Mounted Combat and In Harms Way to negate alot of damage.

Strengths:
Great damage
Great use of actions: full attack + swift and Free + AoO’s
Full mount
Good Physical defense
Fantastic team player w/ Banner, Teamwork Feats, Bodyguard & In harms way, Order of the Dragon
Good RP
Versatile melee, either brawl or Mounted terror

Weaknesses:
Not having mount may suck
Low saves comparatively

You mentioned saves being an issue, so here is the dwarf version of it, which sacrifices early damage and 2 feats for +5 to saves from level 1.

Dwarf Cavalier:
Str 18 (+2 form 8 &12 bonuses)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12 (+1 from level 4 bonus)
Wis 10
Cha 5

Order of the Dragon Cavalier Strategist/Honour Guard
1: Cavalier: Steel Soul, Tactician: Paired Opportunists
2: Cavalier:
3: Cavalier: Honour Guard Feat: Bodyguard ; Feat: Combat Reflexes
4: Cavalier:
5: Cavalier: Power Attack
6: Cavalier:Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise
7: Cavalier: Swift Aid
8: Cavalier:
9: Cavalier Mounted Combat Tactician: Broken wing Gambit
10: Cavalier:
11: Cavalier: Ride by Attack
12: Cavalier: Bonus Feat: Spirited Charge

Traits:
Aid allies: Shadow Lodge +1 aid other
Glory of old: +1 to all saves.

Benefits
+5 to all saves
Darkvision

Downsides:
Slower access to power attack
All other feats 2 levels behind
no Wheeling Charge or Gangup

Lantern Lodge

@Truesight

This is nothing short of fantastic work. I really like it a lot. I guess the only two things I'd like to address are: 1) as you already mentioned, the saves are relatively vulnerable without a lot of sacrifice; and 2) as with any build that heavily optimizes Bodyguard, this suffers from the line "When an adjacent ally is attacked" in the feat description.

I'm afraid that reach weapons do not allow you to Bodyguard your allies from farther away. You have to be right up next to everybody in order to make use of your huge Bodyguard bonus, and the people who need it most (squishy casters and archers) aren't going to be anywhere near you while you're in melee doing your thing. On the other hand, if you hang back in order to protect them, then you just become a walking Mage Armor +.

The reason I'd mentioned trying this with an Oath of Loyalty Paladin is that you can still get a lot out of Bodyguard and pump people's AC even more (and their saves!) with your Loyalty Oath. Plus, as a Paladin, you have the best saves in the game, just as much AC as the Cavalier, and you can do more while you're sitting around with the casters because you are eventually a semi-caster yourself.

An interesting way to go would be to combine 4 levels of the above Paladin (for 2/day Loyalty Oath) with your Cavalier build, except Order of the Star (so that 1/2 your Cavalier level counts as Paladin levels).

Thoughts?

Dark Archive

Aveldaxis wrote:

@Truesight

An interesting way to go would be to combine 4 levels of the above Paladin (for 2/day Loyalty Oath) with your Cavalier build, except Order of the Star (so that 1/2 your Cavalier level counts as Paladin levels).

Thoughts?

I had the same thought, I came up with 'Lucky Jim' when I was going -all in- on defensive buffs for the party, he came out like this.

Lucky Jim :
4 Paladin of Torag (Loyalty Oath)/8 Cavalier (Honour Guard/Gendarme Order of the Star) Halfling Bodyguard
Variant Channeling (Protection) Or Luck
LUCKY JIM :D
Str 13
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 18
1:Paladin: Combat Reflexes OR Power Attack/ Gendarme for Spirited Charge
2:Paladin:
3: Paladin: Lucky Halfling
4: Paladin:
5: Cavalier: Boon Companion (Mounted Combat- Emmisary)
6: Cavalier:
7: Cavalier: Selective Channeling (Bodyguard Honour Guard Bonus Feat)
8: Cavalier:
9: Cavalier In Harms way(Cavalier Bonus Feat: Ride By Attack)
10: Cavalier:
11: Cavalier: Feat: Saving Shield
12: Cavalier: Spirited Charge

Traits
Helpful (Aid other is +4 instead of +2)
Defensive Strategist (not flat-footed when unaware; in surprise round)

Wolf Mount
1-Combat Reflexes
2-Bodyguard
5-In Harms Way
8-Ability Focus: trip
9- Mobility (Emissary Bonus)
10-Power Attack

Actions in a turn Adjacent ally gets Loyalty oath + Challenge= +7 to all saves and +8 to AC. Use Channel Protection to grant everyone in 30 ft an extra 4 AC (5 times per day). Free Action grant +3 to hit to everyone

If ally is attacked, myself and mount use bodyguard to aid other, giving +7 AC, and taking a hit (mount takes first two so I can Mounted Combat them away), if needed I can give another +2 with Saving Shield.
If anyone fails a save I can roll myself using Lucky Halfling and make them use my save, which won’t fail.
So adjacent ally gets +21 AC, +7 to all saves, +3 to hit, and I take hits and can make a save.
Ridiculous.

Doesn't have anywhere near the damage of the full human cavalier, and is slower off the mark to get going but he does have very large defenses and -much- better party bonuses.

Lantern Lodge

@Truesight

This is a lot more like it. You make the MVP (probably our local cookiecutter Treantmonk wizard) almost impossible to kill, and you are also impossible to kill, and the baddies are left wondering what to do.

A note: you can take Helpful as any race with the Adopted trait, and you still get your other trait. Source.

I guess the one thing that bums me out is I love the Lucky Halfling feat in combination with Paladin so much, but it's 1/day and there is no way to use it any more than that. I really wish there was a way to make saves for my allies (or aid another their saves ala' Bodyguard) more than one time.

Dark Archive

Aveldaxis wrote:

@Truesight

A note: you can take Helpful as any race with the Adopted trait, and you still get your other trait. Source.

Helpful trait on a human order of the Dragon Cavalier?! Let's pump that level 3 bonus to +8 shall we. Nice. :P

Dark Archive

This Helpful trait revelation makes me think a pure paladin might do fine for your purposes if you want a bit of damage.

Human Paladin:

Str 17 (+3 from 4, 8 &12 bonuses)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 14

1: Paladin: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
2: Paladin:
3: Paladin: Bodyguard
4: Paladin:
5: Paladin: In harms way
6: Paladin:
7: Paladin:Mounted Combat
8: Paladin:
9: Paladin: Ride by Attack
10: Paladin:
11: Paladin: Spirited Charge
12: Paladin:

Horse Mount
1-Combat Reflexes
2-Bodyguard
5-In Harms Way
8-Dragon Style
10-Power Attack

You give up teamwork feats, Swift Aid and Gangup, 6 less on Aid Another for:
Spells
Smite
Higher Saves
Immunities
Healing

Pretty good trade.

If you don't care about damage you can take Loyalty oath and variant channelling and spin it in that direction too.

Lantern Lodge

The saves are the big selling point for me. It's significant enough that a lot of optimization builds dip 1 level in Paladin if they have any Charisma at all. As long as you didn't dump Cha, dipping Paladin essentially gives you a free Cloak of Resistance that stacks with the actual CoR, plus smite (or an oath) and an extremely useful 1st-level spell at-will (Detect Evil). The second level is almost as good, granting Lay on Hands (which is basically Fast Healing Xd6 where X is your Cha mod +1, amazing for a tank).

I could easily see dipping 1 or 2 levels of Paladin as a solution to any other build's saving throw issues when building this sort of guardian character, especially with Oath of Loyalty giving you a gravy superbuff for boss fights. Assuming, of course, that the build did not dump Cha.

The 3rd level of Paladin is a boring, barren wasteland, and the 4th gives another use of your smite or oath as well as some pretty underwhelming spellcasting, and then it just goes downhill from there (at least, for a tank build). I think 2 might be the magic number with Paladin here.

Lantern Lodge

Along the line of getting more up into people's faces, ala' Tripping (or Stand Stilling), no matter how many angles I look at it I can't get over the fact that Fighters just have more and better options, from Disruptive to Pin Down to the Brawler archetype (which seems to be the quintessential Lockdown archetype). This leads me to ask: is there a way to pump a Fighter's saves without too much sacrifice, such that he can tank half as well as a Monk or a Paladin?


Aveldaxis wrote:

I'm looking for build recommendations on a character who spends all day protecting squishies and otherwise keeping his party alive by being in the way.

The traditional "tank" role in online strategy games is generally defined by two key elements: being able to survive everything your enemies can throw at you, and forcing them to throw it at you instead of your allies. The latter is significantly easier in video games where you're often fighting programmed NPCs with predictable behavior which can be taken advantage of just by standing closer to them than your wizard. In Pathfinder, it takes a bit more work.

Right out of the gate, I would like to firmly discourage Fighter builds, for the simple reason that no matter how high your AC and HP are, a failed save is a failed tank. As a result, I feel like Monks (perhaps Flowing or Many Styles) and Paladins (Oath of Loyalty and/or Divine Defender?) are much more appropriate options, as they can both withstand physical attacks relatively well while also sporting excellent saves across the board.

However, making an indestructible character isn't very difficult. The challenge is having all that defense help the party, either directly (by actually forcing enemies to attack you) or indirectly (by being so much of a bother to enemies that they have to deal with you if they want to move/cast/etc at all).

I already have a general idea that feats like Stand Still and Step Up are going to make an appearance in this. Disruptive would be fantastic if it weren't Fighter-only (which I'm hesitant to play for aforementioned reasons).

Really just anything you can think of and why. The ultimate goal here is A) to make enemies have to deal with you and B) to have enough defenses (including saves) that they can't.

Let me see here...Crane Style is a great tool, Bodyguard is another thing to help if the characters you need to protect are close to you, and you need to help them out if the creature isn't striking you instead of them, Fighting Defensively, or using the Full Defense option is something that can withstand things such as touch attacks and the like, and is ideal in conjunction with Crane Style. Obviously, you're going to need Combat Reflexes.

Reducing the chances/opportunities for fumbles (rolling a 1) and such, as well as increasing overall damage while negating DR via Vital Strike is nice to implement as well.

If using a shield, the Shield Specialization and Shield Focus combo is nice, as it increases CMD, overall AC, and allows you to negate a single critical strike 1/day.

If creature threat is a concern, you might want to put some ranks into Intimidation, and get some feats to make it a swift/free action to Intimidate a creature, and have it come after you instead of the others.

Just a few (if not already mentioned) suggestions. I wouldn't cop out the Fighter class just yet. You have to remember that a Fighter's greatest benefit is his feats and features. You think a Paladin is going to be as proficient with equipment and combat as a Fighter? I don't see Paladins with base 40 movement, 0 ACP, +5 MDB while wearing Full Plate armor.

Lantern Lodge

Yeah, but you also don't see Paladins failing all of their saves except for Fortitude. That Fighter-in-a-Can is all shiny and tough until he's hit by a single compulsion, then the Big Bad has a new recruit.


Here's the 'tank' in a party we've got about to start Rise of the Runelords:

Elven Paladin (Sacred Shield)
Character has high Dexterity and uses a reach weapon and a cestus with Lunge, Combat Reflexes and Standstill to make it dangerous to approach or try to pass. Her high AC, high saves, her use of Lay on Hands for swift heals combined with the Fey Foundling feat/Elven favored class option and Paladin immunities made her able to withstand a tremendous amount of punishment. The Sacred Shield ability, Paladin auras and judicious use of spells allows her to further protect the party from harm. In the role of tank she's very, very impressive. The best thing about her was that she protected from a lot more than just physical threats which makes all the difference in the world and wasn't very susceptible to turning or locking down.

Of course, the best 1-2 melee punch we've ever had was a more traditional Paladin type of build with a Greatsword and a Lore Warden with a reach weapon who would stand behind him, benefitting from his auras. Anything that tried to get past the Paladin usually provoked at least 2 AoO's and the Paladin himself was a very tough nut to crack. Meanwhile the Wizard, Bard and Archer just stayed back and did what they do unmolested about 90% of the time.

Lantern Lodge

I do like Sacred Shield and hadn't noticed the archetype before. Its 4th level ability is very similar to simply having Bodyguard turned on at all times.

However, I do need to point out that Stand Still must be used against an adjacent enemy and thus does not benefit from reach weapons or lunge the way that half the forum seems to think it does. Source.

Sovereign Court

I have a couple tanks, both Half Orcs...

The version you might like is at first Invulnerable Rager Barbarian (DR 1/-, bunch of HP, Wis 14, Iron Will for feat)....

+4 will, +6 while raging... deals with the low level compulsions which you will draw, 18 str and a Great Axe deals with most everything else.


Aveldaxis wrote:
Yeah, but you also don't see Paladins failing all of their saves except for Fortitude. That Fighter-in-a-Can is all shiny and tough until he's hit by a single compulsion, then the Big Bad has a new recruit.

A character not making a save (such as a compulsion) is common. There are class features, magic items, racial traits, etc. to combat that sort of thing.

The thing is, while yes a Paladin/Monk has greater saves to stop them, the same concept of a saving throw is applied to that of an attack roll. Sure, the chances of them saving/missing you is high, but there is still the chance where they fail/hit you. It's all about balance and coordination.

Fighters have class features and bonus feats; Paladins have their own class features, plus their spells to counteract said bonus feats. Of course a Fighter is going to be weaker than a Paladin in regards to supernatural/magical effects, because a Fighter is not trained in the Arts of Magick/Spellcraft, whereas a Paladin, while he does have training in said Arts of Magick/Spellcraft, he is less advantageous in regards to actual combat compared to one who devotes more time, training, and effort into honing their skills.

Saying a Fighter is complete trash against a single spell is a bunch of boulderdash because the same can be said for other classes, because that's all it takes for a character to become charmed, die, etc. by a high-end spell; one saving throw.

Sure, it's easier for a Paladin to overcome those obstacles, but I wonder what he's going to do against a Giant who outclasses him in all forms of physical combat? A fighter would be much more capable against him, but it does not change the fact that a fighter still has pressure against a creature of that stature and level.

Lantern Lodge

You seem pretty upset, so I'm going to lead with an apology. To be clear, I do not think Fighters are bad at all. But this thread isn't about making a good character. It's about making a good tank. There are two things that prevent your character from getting taken out of the fight: Armor Class and Saving Throws. The Fighter has one of these and lacks the other pretty severely. A Paladin has as much AC as a Fighter and also superbly better saves. This does not mean the Paladin is a better class. But I feel it does mean the Paladin is a better tank, which is what this thread is actually about.

As far as tanking the Giant you've described, you should know that any kind of Full Plate a Fighter can afford and wear, the Paladin is also proficient in and likely wearing. Thus, they are physically on par in defenses. The Paladin's defense is not any weaker than the Fighter's physically, and is much better against effects which require a saving throw. As far as building a tank goes, playing a Paladin vs playing a Fighter isn't a trade of magical defenses for physical defenses; it is strictly adding magical defenses to physical defenses without a defensive loss.

I like a lot of the options available to Fighters, especially the two feats Disruptive and Pin Down, which I sorely desire. But as long as there is not a good option for mitigating a Fighter's crippling fragility vs spells and effects (and blowing a bunch of feats and traits on it isn't really a solution), I'm inclined to look elsewhere for this particular build.


Aveldaxis wrote:

You seem pretty upset, so I'm going to lead with an apology. To be clear, I do not think Fighters are bad at all. But this thread isn't about making a good character. It's about making a good tank. There are two things that prevent your character from getting taken out of the fight: Armor Class and Saving Throws. The Fighter has one of these and lacks the other pretty severely. A Paladin has as much AC as a Fighter and also superbly better saves. This does not mean the Paladin is a better class. But I feel it does mean the Paladin is a better tank, which is what this thread is actually about.

As far as tanking the Giant you've described, you should know that any kind of Full Plate a Fighter can afford and wear, the Paladin is also proficient in and likely wearing. Thus, they are physically on par in defenses. The Paladin's defense is not any weaker than the Fighter's physically, and is much better against effects which require a saving throw. As far as building a tank goes, playing a Paladin vs playing a Fighter isn't a trade of magical defenses for physical defenses; it is strictly adding magical defenses to physical defenses without a defensive loss.

I'm not really upset about your statements. It just seems you are severely underestimating the value of a fighter as a good tank. I'm beginning to think you're a little new at grasping the concept of CMB and CMD (or perhaps you don't play with those rules, I don't know).

A fighter is more than likely skilled in Combat Arts (or has higher values of CMB and CMD) than a Paladin, and Combat Arts are also very efficient in removing a character from the fight, even if just temporarily. If a Giant is going to trip/pin you, or bull rush you off a cliff, you're gone, and I hope you have a Slow Fall/Quicken Dimensional Door spell if you're gonna go flying, or a super nasty spell to break out of his outrageous CMB and CMD scores. With that said, there is a lot more to the game than just "AC and Saves," especially when dealing with outrageous creatures, such as Dragons which can swallow hole, Gelatinous Oozes which can engulf you and make you asphyxiate, etc.

A Fighter is better equipped in naturally escaping these obstacles due to their Bonus Feats, and Class Features which can help them out of those pickles, whereas a Paladin may not be so lucky unless he has some spell outside of his Divine Spells list that he can cast on a whim like a Wizard can.

You should also know that a Fighter has Armor Training class features, allowing him to wear armor on levels that no other class can, such as higher MDB, lower ACP, plus being able to have normal movement while wearing said armor. Heck, the Mobile Fighter archetype (which I'm having fun with right now) has a 40 base movement speed by 15th level (kinda late, but it's a nice feature when keeping up with a Barbarian tank who has that insane amount of movement, or a Monk).

Paladins again, might have the better overall saves, but they sacrifice their competence with CMB and CMD scores, where Fighters are generally superior at, and I laugh at my Barbarian Tank friend because he is constantly swallowed whole due to his incompetent CMB and CMD scores.

So yes, there is sacrifice, and while it may not be as noticable, it's still there, and it can still come back to bite you later.

Lantern Lodge

I'm not seeing why a Fighter would have a higher CMD than a Paladin. It's just Str+Dex+BAB, and both classes have full BAB. A Fighter and a Paladin with the same stat spread will have the same CMD at every level. The only exception being if the Fighter were to give up class features for a Maneuver-specific archetype, such a Lore Warden, which takes away most of his proficiencies and all of his armor training in exchange for a bonus to CMD at those levels (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th). Your Barbarian example is even more ridiculous, because most Barbarian builds are going to have the same Str as a Fighter and a higher Dex (because they need Dex more to make up for their lack of heavy armor), which means that the average Barbarian has a superior CMD to a Fighter of the same level.

Basically, if you could please just provide a source for why a Fighter with the same ability scores as a Paladin just has more CMD by way of being a vanilla Fighter, I would be very interested. Because it's not there from what I've seen. You appear to just be making stuff up wildly.


Aveldaxis wrote:
You seem pretty upset, so I'm going to lead with an apology. To be clear, I do not think Fighters are bad at all. But this thread isn't about making a good character. It's about making a good tank. There are two things that prevent your character from getting taken out of the fight: Armor Class and Saving Throws. The Fighter has one of these and lacks the other pretty severely. A Paladin has as much AC as a Fighter and also superbly better saves. This does not mean the Paladin is a better class. But I feel it does mean the Paladin is a better tank, which is what this thread is actually about.

You make a good point, but the benefit actually goes beyond this - with their aura's Paladins are actually able to 'tank' for the party against many dangerous spell effects, most specifically mind-affecting spells and the value of that can not be over-stated. Moreover, they have the ability to heal themselves as a swift action which is another huge, huge advantage over the Fighter, and finally they have spells themselves which further allow them to protect the party (Communal Protection vs. Evil, Communal Endure Elements, Compel Hostility, Paladin's Sacrifice, Shield Other, Archon's Aura, etc.).

I love Fighters. Love them. But with the exception of a couple of Archetypes they make mediocre tanks. That's just the way they were designed.

Lantern Lodge

To be fair to our Fighter advocate, Fighters DO have a lot of amazing tank benefits exclusively available to them that more than make up for their lack of auras and partial casting. Why bother pumping the party's saves vs mind effecting when you can just stand next to the enemy caster with a reach weapon and the Disruptive feat and passively make it impossible for him to do anything for the rest of the fight, just by being there.

The key thing that turns me away from them is their saving throws, and really just their saving throws, because most of the Fighter's contributions as a tank require him to get within melee range of the enemy, which he cannot safely do without surviving the first couple of spells that get lobbed off during his initial approach.

Admittedly, lay on hands might be the best tank ability in the entire game and means that a Paladin has higher effective HP than anyone in the party while still making full use of his turns. But it's often sort of overkill, since you're already invincible with a full plate and divine grace.

The one area in which the Paladin truly suffers (and so does the Fighter) is Touch AC. I have never had a Paladin build whose Touch AC was anything short of awful. Having insane saving throws helps a lot, since most touch spells/attacks provide a save to halve or negate the effect, but it's still a point that hasn't been made yet. That's one reason I feel the Monk is good competition for a Paladin in the tank arena. Monks have almost-as-good saves, almost-as-good AC (which is all touch ac), and are much more adept at combat maneuvers (the bread-and-butter of any "crowd control" build).

Silver Crusade

My suggestion for a really good tank.
Dwarf : Make better tanks then almost any other race.
+2Con +2Wis -2Cha : This boost some of the most important parts of being a tank.
+2 sv. Spells, Spell-like ability's, and poisons : Help with the saving throws even more.
Darkvision 60ft : Neutral on this one. It dose not help or hinder making you a better tank.
Slow and Steady : This is the only draw back from being a dwarf. The slower movement speed really dose hurt.
Pick up the trait Glory of Old and gain a +1 trait bonus to sv. Spells, Spell-like ability's, and poisons. (+3 total)

Paladin (3 levels and done) : If all you want is good saves. Even starting with a 12 Cha is more then enough. With a Cha item on top of it your not going to fail meny saves. Going to level 3 you pick up the immunity's to fear and disease.

Rogue or Monk (3 Levels and done) : One of the most important things in mid to higher level play. Evasion! NO tank can survive multiple AoE spells. The healer will not want to get close. And if they do it's even worse not better. Level 3 rogue nets 1D6 sneak attack and 6 extra skill points. Level 3 monk nets 10 ft movement, and 4 skill points. I tend to use Rogue and light armor.

Fighter : Lore Warden(6 levels) : Constant damage is key to making things come after you. And the fighter is king in this. And top it off with Lore Warden for extra CMB and CMD. You lose out on medium armor, heavy armor, and shields. You have proficiency in them from paladin so your not going to lose any thing.

Total effect : Paladin3/Rogue3/Fighter(Lore Warden)6
Detect Evil At will (Paladin)
Smite Evil (1/Day) (Paladin)
Cha Bonus to all saves.(Paladin)
Lay on Hands (Paladin)
Mercy: Fatigued (Paladin)
Immunity to fear, and disease (Paladin)
12 skill points over 3 Levels (Rogue)
Trap Finding (Rogue)
Rogue Talent: Combat Training: Improved Initiative (Rogue)
Evasion (Rogue)
2D6 Sneak Attack Damage (Rogue)
4 Bonus Feet's, & Combat Expertise(Fighter/Lore Warden)
Weapon Training 1 (Fighter)
Maneuver Mastery (+2)(Lore Warden)
12 skill points Int skills only. Over 6 levels.(Lore Warden)


Aveldaxis wrote:

I'm not seeing why a Fighter would have a higher CMD than a Paladin. It's just Str+Dex+BAB, and both classes have full BAB. A Fighter and a Paladin with the same stat spread will have the same CMD at every level. The only exception being if the Fighter were to give up class features for a Maneuver-specific archetype, such a Lore Warden, which takes away most of his proficiencies and all of his armor training in exchange for a bonus to CMD at those levels (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th). Your Barbarian example is even more ridiculous, because most Barbarian builds are going to have the same Str as a Fighter and a higher Dex (because they need Dex more to make up for their lack of heavy armor), which means that the average Barbarian has a superior CMD to a Fighter of the same level.

Basically, if you could please just provide a source for why a Fighter with the same ability scores as a Paladin just has more CMD by way of being a vanilla Fighter, I would be very interested. Because it's not there from what I've seen. You appear to just be making stuff up wildly.

There are feats that allow Fighters (and only fighters) to increase their overall CMD, such as Shield Specialization, and is key for Fighter Tanks, unless they want to be pinned and unable to do crap (like I was with this last fight with a Hill Giant). The benefits of Shield Specialization and Shield Focus (and their upgrades) stack; with 4 feats, I get +4 v.s. Crit Confirmations, +3-6 (depending on the shield) to my CMD, and the ability to negate a single critical strike made against me per day.

Saying a Fighter doesn't need or shouldn't have as much dex as a Barbarian is just as ludicrous, especially since due to the Armor Training a Fighter gets, his Max Dex bonus should be higher, and his ACP should be lower. Even as a Mobile Fighter with 2 ranks of Armor Training (which is all I get), I can have a +3 MDB and -2 ACP, with Full Plate, not including factors of Mithril Full Plate, which make it a +5 MDB and -0 ACP.


@OP - I wouldn't discount the fighter, although you'd want to build the character and select equipment to mitigate the otherwise poor will save.

If you want a fighter-type that doesn't have poor will saves out of the box then I'd steer you towards the paladin or samurai. The paladin will have uber-saves (thanks to divine grace and high will save) while the samurai will be comparable to the fighter with the option to spend a renewable resources (resolve and honor in all things) to roll his will and fort saves twice and/or get a +4 bonus on any save or skill check. Additionally, at higher level the Samurai can spend a point of resolve to turn a critical hit scored against him into a regular hit.

Since there is no aggro mechanic in Pathfinder you'll want to motivate the enemy to pay attention to you rather than eat an AoO or two to walk around you to get at your friends. I prefer to do a bit of damage and avoid adopting an overly defensive posture.

I've been playing a Samurai (Order of the Warrior) that does a metric boatload of damage, is really hard to stop with either direct damage or spells and is effective at drawing the enemy attack.

Some pointers:

Stats: High STR and CON. A respectable WIS and no more than a 12 DEX (13 if you want feats from the dodge line). If you've rolled well the extra skill points from a high INT are always welcome and a high CHA opens up the use of the intimidate skill at lower levels.

Feats: You should be looking to select power attack, furious focus, critical focus and (IMO) iron will. I've avoided mounted combat feats entirely and haven't regretted it at all.

Tactics: When outside I usually fight alongside my Man-Eating-Murder-Horse^tm after lancing. Inside I'll fight on foot, usually starting with a pole arm and using the quickdraw feature from the Samurai weapon training ability to switch to katana when the fight closes in. Against low intelligence brute-type monsters I'll wear a shield and fight defensively to engage the monster/block off space while the rest of the party focuses on ranged damage.

Most helpful spell: Shield other. Splitting damage will the party cleric (or archer paladin) is the cherry on top that makes the two-handed approach that much more effective. You're taking more hits since you're not using a shield but you're doing a lot more damage (1.5 times your power attack and str bonus, plus you can use furious focus), which forces enemies to focus on you.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Truesight wrote:

I'll share a build I've been aching to try out for while. Gives great defense and huge damage to back it up** spoiler omitted **

Here's how it works:

Level 1: You have 18 strength, heavy armour, an armoured full power druid companion and a two handed weapon with power attack. You are a terror. When you Challenge someone you can give an adjacent ally +1 AC.

Level 3: If any ally is attacked within your reach use bodyguard to add 7(!) (2 Aid other, +1 Aid Allies, +3 Order of the Dragon +1 Honour Guard) to their AC 3 times per round. Your horse can do the same adding 2 to you or adding 2 more to the ally. This stacks with your challenge bonus.

Level 6: You can add 5 to an allies attack if they are next to you as a swift action, or preemptively increase their AC by 5. Your Challenge damage is becoming amazing, and everyone gets +2 to hit on charges thanks to your banner. If you cop a beat down have your mount use In Harms Way to take the damage, then use Mounted Combat to negate the hit.

Level 9: Swift action Paired Opportunists and Broken Wing Gambit to the party at the start of combat, or even better Drill Instructor it beforehand...

Trusight: Why a Dex of 14? Isn't this guy going to be wearing full plate?

Dark Archive

Tarondor wrote:


Trusight: Why a Dex of 14? Isn't this guy going to be wearing full plate?

He will be wearing full plate, but a dex of 14 allows 2 extra attacks of opportunity using combat reflexes, which means 3 opportunities to increase an allies AC using bodyguard rather than 1.

Silver Crusade

Truesight wrote:


Level 3: If any ally is attacked within your reach use bodyguard to add 7(!) (2 Aid other, +1 Aid Allies, +3 Order of the Dragon +1 Honor Guard) to their AC 3 times per round. Your horse can do the same adding 2 to you or adding 2 more to the ally. This stacks with your challenge bonus.

This is incorrect.

At second level an Order of the Dragon cavalier gets Aid Allies which modifies the Aid Another action from a +2 to a +3. At 3rd level e Honor Guard ability Intercept increases the aid another action to increase an ally's AC by an additional +1.

On an attack of opportunity at 3rd level an Honor Guard/Strategist can only aid another of a total of +4.

The aid allies Shadow Lodge trait accomplishes the same thing that the Order of the Dragon class ability does so there is no increase there.

An Order of the Dragon's challenge doesn't grant allies +1 to AC it grants +1 circumstance bonus to melee attack rolls.

Scarab Sages

A Kensai with 2 levels of MoMS is very hard to take down, highly mobile and poses a significant threat to opponents.

Played correctly, It is very capable of filling the tank role.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

If you start with one level of Unarmed Fighter, then two levels of Master of Many Styles monk, you can have the entire Crane Style feat chain by 3rd level. That means you can fight defensively for -2 to attacks and +4 to AC (assuming 3 ranks in Acrobatics), deflect one melee attack per round, and get an AoO when you do. And since MoMS gives up flurry of blows anyway, you can leave your WIS low and put on some armor.

Shadow Lodge

I'm really surprised no one has brought up combat patrol here.

This feat allows anyone to increases their threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. You can attack anyone within this area as an attack of opportunity, even moving to get to them if needed.

You can follow this up with Step up and Strike chain as well as a reach weapon or some sort of combat maneuver like bull rush, trip or reposition.

Since you've already stated no fighters, please disregard this, but for others reading, Spell Breaker makes this a great way to DESTROY casters when they fail concentration checks.

Lantern Lodge

I know its a Fighter but i built this a while back and u may or may not like it but i think it fufils the "tank" role as best as i could do.

-Race-
Human

-Classes-
Fighter (Lore Warden) 14/ Monk (Monk of the Four Winds / Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 2/ Ranger (Weapon and Shield) 2/ Rogue 2

-Stats-
STR 14 (+6 magic item) = 20
DEX 16 (+4 leveling)(+6 magic item) = 26
CON 15 (+2 racial)(+1 leveling) = 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 08

-Saves-
fort 22
ref 22
will 13

ac 47 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 55
touch 24 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 32
flat-footed 29

to hit with unarmed attacks with weapon finesse 26 (-4 combat expertise)(-1 fighting defensively) = 21

-Traits-
Threatening Defender

-Feat / Level Progression-
Ra01) Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
Ra02) Shield Focus
M 03) Elemental Fist, Dodge, Crane Style
M 04) Toughness, Deflect Arrows
F 05) Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike, Missile Shield
F 06) Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
F 07) Crane Wing
F 08) Saving Shield
F 09) Bodyguard
F 10) Crane Riposte
F 11) Draconic Defender
F 12) Greater Shield Focus
F 13) Disruptive
F 14) Spellbreaker
F 15) Pin Down
F 16) Ray Shield
F 17) Mobility
F 18) Spring Attack
Ro19) Whirlwind Attack
Ro20) Talent - Combat Trick (Weapon Specialization Unarmed Strike)

-Magic Gear-
Bracers of Armor(+8)
Mithril Heavy Shield (+5 Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflection)
Ring of Protection (+5)
Ring of Regeneration
Amulet of Natural Armor(+5)
Belt of Physical Might (+6 str / +6 dex)
Cloak of Resistance (+5)

-Tanking Method-
Fight with caster standing behind u since any thing that enters ur threaten area will not be able to exit ur threaten are via Stand Still and Pin Down as well all incoming missile attacks would veer towards u via Arrow Catching. When making an attack action fight defensively and use combat expertise to up personal ac and grant 1 adjacent party member a natural armor bonus equal to the dodge bonus from combat expertise and fighting defensively via Draconic Defender. Use AoO to grant aid another ac to an adjacent party member via Bodyguard and an immediate action grant shield bonus via Saving Shield. Negate 1 melee attack, 1 ranged spell attack, and 3 ranged missile attacks a round via Crane Wing, Ray Shield, Deflect Arrows, Missile Shield, and Arrow Deflection.

Dark Archive

I've already posted this here so this may help.

Check the very last post.

Basically you take monk to 7th level for Wholeness of body. You also take Brawler which is great for the combat maneuver stuff, I guess but I took it for the Menacing Stance and No Escape features.

You grab Drunken Master (mostly for fun) for inexpensive and eventually free healing from wholeness of body, monk of the sacred mountain to power up your ac and hp and master of many styles and take crane and archon style.

You don't need to move around a lot in combat. It's ok if you do, but being adjacent to an ally who is in a fight isn't difficult. You have decent saves from being a monk, and good fear resistance but will need something to increase your resistance to charms and compulsions since you give up still mind for the fun of drunken master. You can give all adjacent allies +4 to their ac against a single foe and +2 against anyone else. When using Bodyguard you add an additional +4 to an adjacent allies AC. You have the ability to redirect attacks to you once per round and if that isn't enough you can take the hit yourself with harms way. You've got bonus hp because you're trying to take hits and when you do take damage, you can heal it using your ki, which can readily be replenished by drinking strong alcohol as a standard and eventually swift action. You obviously want stand still to prevent enemies from reaching whoever you are trying to protect and No Escape will get you an aoo when people do try and walk on by, if Stand Still isn't relevant (due to a lack of reach). If you have a long spear, you can fix this problem and get the reach you need to make stand still more effective, unhand the spear if a foe is adjacent and be switched to 'unarmed' combat for purposes of those abilities.

You can also make the save for one ally within 30 feat.
Out of combat it is a great substitute for a healing class and it makes prodigious use of the heal skill.

All in all, it sounds fun and useful to me. You don't need to 'draw agro' or be adjacent to everyone. You can sit back and protect a single spellcaster and use ranged attacks to contribute shuriken or whatever monks use for ranged) or you can run into melee and assist the melee damage dealer keeping him alive waaaaay longer than he should be allowed to live. If something focuses on you you can and will have easily tied for the top ac but you will also have better saves (probably) and formidable hp. It's a strong, solid character with a straightforward goal that it is good with. The main issue is being in position to protect an ally and you get 5 feet of free movement with the 'drunken stumble' as I like to call it. ^_^ Nevermind reaching any point on the battlefield is no issue since you're a monk with increased movement anyway. The build is not complete as it is undergoing tweaks. This may be closer to what you were looking for.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Truesight wrote:

I'll share a build I've been aching to try out for while. Gives great defense and huge damage to back it up** spoiler omitted **

Here's how it works:

Level 1: You have 18 strength, heavy armour, an armoured full power druid companion and a two handed weapon with power attack. You are a terror. When you Challenge someone you can give an adjacent ally +1 AC.

Level 3: If any ally is attacked within your reach use bodyguard to add 7(!) (2 Aid other, +1 Aid Allies, +3 Order of the Dragon +1 Honour Guard) to their AC 3 times per round. Your horse can do the same adding 2 to you or adding 2 more to the ally. This stacks with your challenge bonus.

Level 6: You can add 5 to an allies attack if they are next to you as a swift action, or preemptively increase their AC by 5. Your Challenge damage is becoming amazing, and everyone gets +2 to hit on charges thanks to your banner. If you cop a beat down have your mount use In Harms Way to take the damage, then use Mounted Combat to negate the hit.

Level 9: Swift action Paired Opportunists and Broken Wing Gambit to the party at the start of combat, or even better Drill Instructor it beforehand...

Another question for Truesight (or anyone who knows the answer): I don't think your calculations are kosher (though I wish they were since I use this build in PFS). What is the +3 for Order of the Dragon you mention in your calculation of Aid Another? I get a total of +4 (+2 Aid Another, +1 Aid Ally, +1 Honor Guard).

Silver Crusade

This one is a little unorthodox.

Tiefling Paladin(X)/Cleric(1)

Select Racial traits for +1 LoH to self per level
Fiendish Sprinter Alternate Racial trait for +10 movement on Charges, Withdraws and Run
Luck and Travel Cleric Domains

Your movement is 40, which compensates for the Heavy Armor. Faster under some conditions. Luck and Travel allow you to cope with any major interference to getting "there" wheresoever that might be. You get to hand out a full round of "Here, roll 2 d20's for the rest of the round and take the best roll" which you can you get to "there" to hand out.

With Shield Other and the Suicide trait you can intercept damage and heal it for +1hp per level as a swift action.

Appropriate Subrace gives you bonus Charisma, and maybe look into that alternate Bite Attack feature...

Invest in Bullrush oriented feats. Bullrush is great because it allows you to push people around the battlefield and knock them prone on good rolls. With Rapid Bullrush you can do this as part of your attack routine. Bullrush is better than Trip when you're not investing serious feats (which paladins do not have to throw around).

Your damage will be enhanced through Smite Evil.

Unsanctioned Knowledge can provide some great flexibility. The Inquisitor list in particular has a lot of tasty offerings for the Paladin.

_______________________________
Some Caveats:
-------------------------------

Thinking Cap allows you to roll 2d20 for mind affecting saves and take the best roll. This significantly reduces the chance of your failure and this item can enhance any tank design you come up with.

With the right rage powers and items an Invulnerable Rager with the Stalwart feat chain can absorb some terrifying amounts of damage. What cannot be absorbed is unlikely to kill it. Use a two-handed weapon and with your crappy AC + huge damage enemies keep swinging. Reduce the AC penalty with Beast Totem and pick up charge pounce for more instant aggro, but there are plenty of ways to do this.

UMD from a trait is a significant advantage to every character, Tanks especially.

Martial Control character are a lot like tanks. Whips with a few feats and 15' base reach can shut down entire sections of the battlefield. Only a few creatures will be immune to the sheer variety of nasty tricks and those can be focused on by the DPS to drop first. Maneuver Master Monks with a monk reach weapon can do this with slightly less reach than a whip.

Summoner can tank quite well with Eidolons and spells. Though, like the Martial Control option you're tanking is more in terms of controlling the battlefield. However, your Eidolon can be terrifying in its own right. Especially if you choose to be a half-elf for the racial bonus of evolution points.

Summary:
You're never going to feel like a "Tank" from an MMO. The mechanics do not work that way, but you can certainly build a variety of character styles to direct the flow of combat or shut it down entirely.

P.S. It was late and I was drinking. If I need to expand or clarify anything let me know. I'll get to it more...refreshed.


Truesight wrote:

I'll share a build I've been aching to try out for while. Gives great defense and huge damage to back it up** spoiler omitted **

Here's how it works:

Level 1: You have 18 strength, heavy armour, an armoured full power druid companion and a two handed weapon with power attack. You are a terror. When you Challenge someone you can give an adjacent ally +1 AC.

Level 3: If any ally is attacked within your reach use bodyguard to add 7(!) (2 Aid other, +1 Aid Allies, +3 Order of the Dragon +1 Honour Guard) to their AC 3 times per round. Your horse can do the same adding 2 to you or adding 2 more to the ally. This stacks with your challenge bonus.

Level 6: You can add 5 to an allies attack if they are next to you as a swift action, or preemptively increase their AC by 5. Your Challenge damage is becoming amazing, and everyone gets +2 to hit on charges thanks to your banner. If you cop a beat down have your mount use In Harms Way to take the damage, then use Mounted Combat to negate the hit.

Level 9: Swift action Paired Opportunists and Broken Wing Gambit to the party at the start of combat, or even better Drill Instructor it beforehand...


Truesight wrote:

I'll share a build I've been aching to try out for while. Gives great defense and huge damage to back it up** spoiler omitted **

Here's how it works:

Level 1: You have 18 strength, heavy armour, an armoured full power druid companion and a two handed weapon with power attack. You are a terror. When you Challenge someone you can give an adjacent ally +1 AC.

Level 3: If any ally is attacked within your reach use bodyguard to add 7(!) (2 Aid other, +1 Aid Allies, +3 Order of the Dragon +1 Honour Guard) to their AC 3 times per round. Your horse can do the same adding 2 to you or adding 2 more to the ally. This stacks with your challenge bonus.

Level 6: You can add 5 to an allies attack if they are next to you as a swift action, or preemptively increase their AC by 5. Your Challenge damage is becoming amazing, and everyone gets +2 to hit on charges thanks to your banner. If you cop a beat down have your mount use In Harms Way to take the damage, then use Mounted Combat to negate the hit.

Level 9: Swift action Paired Opportunists and Broken Wing Gambit to the party at the start of combat, or even better Drill Instructor it beforehand...

I like it better as a halfling ...

1 to saves
Medium wolf = you are riding all the time
Helpfull trait is 2 to aid
Take shake it off as well as your mount- than complain about low saves ....
If needed take 1 level as monk to boost All the saves .
1 thi g you got wrong - the dragon don't add 3 it replace the existing 2 ..


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

That's what I said.


The real issue is where totals your mount - be will never be a Amish DPR .
Power >> overrun>> charge through>> acrobatic steps = best mount position and charge
Reflexes >> bodyguard >> in harm way = extra meat shield
Team feat with cavalier ( real q is which 1....) >> power att >> bull rush >> ability focus trip = effect causing .

Silver Crusade

Sacred Shield paladin would be a good idea. Take Fey Foundling as level 1 feat and Greater Mercy as level 3 feat and pump Cha to at least a 16 if not 18 at level 1.

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