Repositioning off a cliff?


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Reposition says you cannot move your target into a square occupied by a solid object or obstacle.

Does that mean I can't reposition someone off a cliff, or into a pool of lava? Or is "obstacle" referring to something more like a fence?


read the entire thing, RD.

Quote:

You can attempt to reposition a foe to a different location as a standard action. You can only reposition an opponent that is no more than one size category larger than you. A reposition attempts to force a foe to move to a different position in relation to your location without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Reposition feat or a similar ability, attempting to reposition a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. You cannot use this maneuver to move a foe into a space that is intrinsically dangerous, such as a pit or wall of fire. If your attack is successful, you may move your target 5 feet to a new location. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can move the target an additional 5 feet. The target must remain within your reach at all times during this movement, except for the final 5 feet of movement, which can be to a space adjacent to your reach.

An enemy being moved by a reposition does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Reposition feat. You cannot move a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle.

You can't move them into a space intrinsically dangerous- that automatically removes "pool of lava" from the realm of possibility.

I would rule that unless they can fly (naturally) or are already under the effects of a levitate, fly, or similar magical effect, that "over a cliff" would constitute "intrinsically dangerous".
Afterall, the entire purpose of you doing so is to cause them to fall to their death...

-S

Dark Archive

What about into an area of entangle?


I'm really not sure Mergy.

On the one hand- the spell does 0 damage to the player. Nothing about the spell is dangerous.

On the other hand, putting someone into an Entangle is a pretty sure way to make sure the rest of the group can stomp them.. if they fail their save.

So I dunno. There isn't a "or under an ongoing spell effect" clause to Reposition so I'd probably allow it, but I do think its a fairly grey area.

What about a Web spell? what about a burning Web spell where the fire hasn't gotten to the square you are moving them into yet?

What about into a Pit spell or a pool of water or lake or river?

I dunno.. I think at some point its the DM's call of what constitutes "intrinsically dangerous".

-S

Dark Archive

Gotcha. You just had to say "written badly".


I disagree, to be honest.

I have absolutely no issue with some things being left to a DM call.

Not everything can, or should even attempt to be, hammered out in 200 page legalese by the Dev's who are trying to cmoe up with every possible situation.

Its really OK if DM A says "entangle is dangerous" and another says "its not".

Thats why we have DM's.

-S


Most things that allow for repositioning do let you put someone in a dangerous place (like off a cliff) but they get another save/resist chance with a bonus immediately.

What particular ability are you using to reposition people?


Its a combat maneuver from the APG called "Reposition".

-S


Ravingdork wrote:

Reposition says you cannot move your target into a square occupied by a solid object or obstacle.

Does that mean I can't reposition someone off a cliff, or into a pool of lava? Or is "obstacle" referring to something more like a fence?

Reposition also says:

Quote:
You cannot use this maneuver to move a foe into a space that is intrinsically dangerous, such as a pit or wall of fire.

I'd have to guess that 'off a cliff' is functionally no different then 'a pit' and into a pool of lava is more-or-less the same as 'wall of fire'. So no would appear you cannot.

Grand Lodge

What if the does not know the square is intrinsically dangerous?

What if the target believes the square is intrinsically dangerous, even if it is not?


Entangle, in and of itself, is not "intrinsically dangerous". There is no component to that spell that will cause physical harm to a person affected by it.


Ravingdork wrote:

Reposition says you cannot move your target into a square occupied by a solid object or obstacle.

Does that mean I can't reposition someone off a cliff, or into a pool of lava? Or is "obstacle" referring to something more like a fence?

I don't see why a cliff wouldn't work, there is no obstacle or solid object


blackbloodtroll wrote:

What if the does not know the square is intrinsically dangerous?

What if the target believes the square is intrinsically dangerous, even if it is not?

I think it'd be based more on the "doer" than the "victim", myself.

Basically- if you are doing it to insta-kill the badguy through some terrain, or through an insta-kill type or damaging type spell, then you can't reposition them onto it.

So no cliffs (if fly or somethign isn't involved), no walls of fire or areas otherwise on fire, full of acid, or such like that unless the do'er knows the target is immune to such.

Keep in mind, this is largely going to be a DM call based on the intent and knowledge of whats going on.

-S

Grand Lodge

So, it depends on the perceptions of the one Repositioning, or the one being Repositioned?

Who's perception decides if the square is intrinsically dangerous enough to disallow the Reposition?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Selgard wrote:
Read the entire thing, RD.

Hahahehe. Oops. :-/


blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, it depends on the perceptions of the one Repositioning, or the one being Repositioned?

Who's perception decides if the square is intrinsically dangerous enough to disallow the Reposition?

The DM's.

It is a 100% completely meta-game arbitrated ability. I'm not terribly fond of that, but it is what it is.

For some unknown reason, mystical forces step in and stop a fighter from moving him 5ft over a cliff when he can move him 5ft in any other direction. That same mystical force stops him from moving a cat over a pool of lava but not wyrmling red dragon. Or, for that matter, the cat over a cliff but not the dragon. (since it has wings, and a fly speed, a cliff wouldnt' in and of itself be "intrinsically dangerous".

Make sense "in game". Nope. Not even slightly.
But its what the rule says.

-S

Grand Lodge

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Great way to find traps then.
Just continually Reposition allies over potentially dangerous squares.
If possible, no trap, but if denied, trapped.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Great way to find traps then.

Just continually Reposition allies over potentially dangerous squares.
If possible, no trap, but if denied, trapped.

Thats awesome. lol

I think I'm going to suggest that to our fighter next time, just to see the look on the DM's face :)

-S

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

I think I might have a grasp of the in-game effect of this ability. When fencing with an opponent who starts to circle me I will automatically move myself to a better defensive position to counter. I would not do so if that space was occupied by a chair, pit etc.

As a GM I would be inclined to base this on the perception of danger by the target, for that very reason. This has the added benefit of eliminating the trap detector function described above which was equal parts awesome and ridiculous.


Some of the issues I suspect, that people have, is due to them picturing one creature physically picking up and moving the other creature.

But this is actually how Grapple work (more specifically the 'move' option of it), not reposition.

Reposition is probably more like how ShadowShackleton described it above, in that you are maneuvering with the opponent and forcing him to move into the new position, not actually physically moving him yourself... thus you cannot toss him off a cliff, as he has at least a modicum of control over where he ends up, and you are not actually tossing him.


What does work is trip with Improved Ki Throw to put people in dangerous positions, Basically, Judo throw them off the cliff.

Dark Archive

powell01 wrote:
What does work is trip with Improved Ki Throw to put people in dangerous positions, Basically, Judo throw them off the cliff.

My combat maneuver monk has had way too much fun with that. Also good for moving people away from casters, into flanking, or even using it on friendly casters to move them out of flanking.


The arbitrary limitation of "intrinsically dangerous" is completely silly and deserves to be houseruled into non-existance.

Tossing people off cliffs and into walls of fire is practically the only purpose of this maneuver. You already need to start next to your target, which means you're giving up a Full Attack to do it.

If you're giving up a Full Attack, the trade off had better be really, really impressive. If it's not, why would anyone bother?


Happler wrote:
powell01 wrote:
What does work is trip with Improved Ki Throw to put people in dangerous positions, Basically, Judo throw them off the cliff.
My combat maneuver monk has had way too much fun with that. Also good for moving people away from casters, into flanking, or even using it on friendly casters to move them out of flanking.

Sounds like mine, except he makes the bad guy blind with dirty trick first. Rogues and ninjas love him in pfs games, especially when he gets enlarged:)

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