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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, I could buy it if it was referenced only to powers, that would just make it the same as a wizard relearning their spells, but feats too? And effecting others? A bit steep, quite frankly. An optimizer's dream, but it's too much.

There is one limiting factor though, which while it may not be as intended but the text says:

"The subject is not limited to changing only a single level's choices should he decide to undo decisions from prior levels. Every level between his current level and his earliest level may be altered, so long as the choices were valid at the appropriate level."

The way I read it, if you want to change your choices at 5th level and are now 13th level, you HAVE to change your choices at 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th level.

You may have found the one thing in psionics I would consider banning or amending. Probably I'd just take away the augment option to get rid of the penalty.


MaverickWolf wrote:
You're misreading the table. The enhanced mind blade ability of the base soulknife advances every other level, starting at 3rd. It maxes out at +9.....

That works


Dabbler wrote:

Yes, I could buy it if it was referenced only to powers, that would just make it the same as a wizard relearning their spells, but feats too? And effecting others? A bit steep, quite frankly. An optimizer's dream, but it's too much.

There is one limiting factor though, which while it may not be as intended but the text says:

"The subject is not limited to changing only a single level's choices should he decide to undo decisions from prior levels. Every level between his current level and his earliest level may be altered, so long as the choices were valid at the appropriate level."

The way I read it, if you want to change your choices at 5th level and are now 13th level, you HAVE to change your choices at 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th level.

You may have found the one thing in psionics I would consider banning or amending. Probably I'd just take away the augment option to get rid of the penalty.

I suppose I could work with giving the subject permanent negative levels, in that way the power gains an artificial pricetag in the form of restoration spells.

EDIT: though I guess if psionics is in your game cleanse spirit is much cheaper or free making this a less than ideal option.


Dabbler wrote:

Yes, I could buy it if it was referenced only to powers, that would just make it the same as a wizard relearning their spells, but feats too? And effecting others? A bit steep, quite frankly. An optimizer's dream, but it's too much.

There is one limiting factor though, which while it may not be as intended but the text says:

"The subject is not limited to changing only a single level's choices should he decide to undo decisions from prior levels. Every level between his current level and his earliest level may be altered, so long as the choices were valid at the appropriate level."

The way I read it, if you want to change your choices at 5th level and are now 13th level, you HAVE to change your choices at 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th level.

You may have found the one thing in psionics I would consider banning or amending. Probably I'd just take away the augment option to get rid of the penalty.

Well, it does say it may be altered, not that it has to be altered, so I'd rule that you don't have to change choices if you don't want to.

See, I like psionics. I've played psions before, and have lots of fun with them. In combat, they are pretty balanced, and in fact a little on the weak side. (Well, as weak in combat as any full spellcasting class gets.) It is in their non-combat use that they really shine, if you choose the right powers. You just have to be willing to hold back a little bit, to keep from breaking the GM's game.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dilvias wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Yes, I could buy it if it was referenced only to powers, that would just make it the same as a wizard relearning their spells, but feats too? And effecting others? A bit steep, quite frankly. An optimizer's dream, but it's too much.

There is one limiting factor though, which while it may not be as intended but the text says:

"The subject is not limited to changing only a single level's choices should he decide to undo decisions from prior levels. Every level between his current level and his earliest level may be altered, so long as the choices were valid at the appropriate level."

The way I read it, if you want to change your choices at 5th level and are now 13th level, you HAVE to change your choices at 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th level.

You may have found the one thing in psionics I would consider banning or amending. Probably I'd just take away the augment option to get rid of the penalty.

Well, it does say it may be altered, not that it has to be altered, so I'd rule that you don't have to change choices if you don't want to.

See, I like psionics. I've played psions before, and have lots of fun with them. In combat, they are pretty balanced, and in fact a little on the weak side. (Well, as weak in combat as any full spellcasting class gets.) It is in their non-combat use that they really shine, if you choose the right powers. You just have to be willing to hold back a little bit, to keep from breaking the GM's game.

I like them too, but this smacks way too much of an optimizer's dream (no offence to optimizers out there) rather than a sensible and balanced option for a power. A fighter's ability to swap out combat feats at higher levels is an important feature of the class rendered null and void by this power, as indeed is any careful character development. No longer optimal build for your level? No worries, psychic reformation takes care of it!


Considering I want to make a psionic character tha can pretty much always make his concentration check, such as in a grapple, are these legal to combine ?

The base is level + key ability modifier of course.

- combat manifestation (+4)

- psicrystal affinity, single minded (+3)

- expend focus (/ psionic meditation) (take 15 on concentration)

Other options :

- overchannel / talented, (+1 to +3) can't be used with take 15

- Wild Surge, wilder, can't be used with overchannel

- alter the waves, clairsentience lvl 8 (+3)

- circlet of persuasion, for charisma based manifesters (+3)

Any other ways to increase the concentration check I missed, preferably not too hard to get (say up to lvl 13 character) ?


Dabbler wrote:

Yes, I could buy it if it was referenced only to powers, that would just make it the same as a wizard relearning their spells, but feats too? And effecting others? A bit steep, quite frankly. An optimizer's dream, but it's too much.

There is one limiting factor though, which while it may not be as intended but the text says:

"The subject is not limited to changing only a single level's choices should he decide to undo decisions from prior levels. Every level between his current level and his earliest level may be altered, so long as the choices were valid at the appropriate level."

The way I read it, if you want to change your choices at 5th level and are now 13th level, you HAVE to change your choices at 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th level.

You may have found the one thing in psionics I would consider banning or amending. Probably I'd just take away the augment option to get rid of the penalty.

I think we found the real problem. Again is goes to the wording of how things are used in Psionics especially.

While there are other misuses of words that cause issues in other Classes, this really affects Psionics the most.


Where can I fine these feats:

Awakened Psicrystal
Improved Psicrystal

Can a "Gifted Soulknife" of 8th Level/6th level Manifester, have this for a Psi-Crystal:

Implanted
Awakened
Nimble & Hero
Focused Personality
Sighted
Powers: Can Manifest as an Egoist of the same level and PP cost is reduced as using Ring of Psionics (halves PP costs)
+4 AC to Psion


Oops, it's "Implanted Psicrystal" not "Improved Psicrystal"

These are the Psion Feats he's taken as a character

Psicrystal Affinity
Awakened Psicrystal
Improved Psicryatal
Improved Metamorphosis
Swift Shapeshifter


The psicrystal stuff is from Dreamscarred Material published for 3.5: High Psionics - Psicrystals Expanded.

Improved Metamorphosis and Swift Shapeshifter are from Psionics Unleashed.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The 3.5 stuff is not automatically acceptable for Pathfinder if you choose not to include it. Dreamscarred updated a lot of what they wanted to include in Pathfinder into Psionics Expanded.


Thank you all.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Since the topic of spell points was brought up, I find it funny that this just came out a few minutes ago

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/105022/Houserule-Handbooks%3A-Spell-Points


Frerezar wrote:

Since the topic of spell points was brought up, I find it funny that this just came out a few minutes ago

Houserule Handbooks: Spell Points

(Fixed the Link)

That's actually a really interesting book and definitely something I'll be looking into at a later date.


"Psychic Strike" of the Soulblade HAS to be a limited # of times per day. A Fighter can't compete with a Soulknife

Just got done with a game tonight and the players who don't play a psion wonder WTF they're doing there and the Psion does TONS more damage, has a much better chance to hit, etc

For those who think the rest of the players should "munchkin out", thanks in advance for saying that psionics is for munchkins

As much as I really don't want to, it's time to drop Psionics completely or get it fixed cause Psionic characters and "re-focusing" is really lame. They should only be allowed to do it a few times a day, like a Paladin's Smite, or a Cleric's Channeling and then they have to burn Feats to get 1 more at a time

Signed a Really Frustrated DM who wants to have Psionics in his game only to be thwarted by how easy it is to make a Psionic character into a machine. Not even the 8th Level Conjurer Mage nor 8th Level Fighter together can deal more damage per turn and the Mage runs out real quick with offensive fire power


Give us the character sheets and we can see whats going wrong. Heck, give us an example of what's happening. Even Psionic blasting shouldn't be better than a well built fighter or a Conjurer.

EDIT: An no, well-built does not equal going munchkin


Could you expand on this more? What kind of encounters did they have? How many before they rested? What set up did the Psion have, what powers?

I ask, because Psionics are, generally, better 'blasters' than normal magic, but at the same time, a blaster psion is not going to be very good at much else than blasting.

Keep in mind, until a Psionics Character takes Psionic Meditation, re-focusing is a full round action.

If your characters are having relatively few encounters per day, the psionic character will quickly appear far more powerful as Psionics is very good at dealing Nova damage.

Also, if the encounters aren't varied, the Psionic character appear more powerful as well. But this is true of any focused caster. A Wizard or Sorcerer that specializes in blasting, is going to overshadow the other classes because they can damage everyone at once, not just one person at a time.

Hopefully, you'll be able to give a breakdown of what, exactly, happened. I've heard a number of times, from a number of people (not just in this thread) that the biggest fault of Psionics, is people not reading the rules correctly, which allows them to completely overshadow other casting classes.


At first glance the soulblade seems to be a bit better than the fighter, in the early levels in particular but not by much, what makes psychic strike so offensive ?

As I understand it, the first blow deals some extra damage, then you can do it again by expending your focus as a swift action to recharge it. After that it requires a move action to recharge it every round.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BB36 wrote:
"Psychic Strike" of the Soulblade HAS to be a limited # of times per day. A Fighter can't compete with a Soulknife

Actually they can, and I know 'cos I'm the guy who crunched the numbers ad nauseum to prove it. Unless they have brought in some new feats that suddenly make it much easier, psychic strike is generally used as an 'opener' after which the soulknife has to fight normally.

The soulknife will generally deal out more damage on round #1 as a result, but after this the fighter steadily claws back the difference. What makes the REAL difference is the fighter's weapon training which boosts their chances to hit and enables them to deal substantially more damage against high-level targets.

BB36 wrote:
Just got done with a game tonight and the players who don't play a psion wonder WTF they're doing there and the Psion does TONS more damage, has a much better chance to hit, etc

Without seeing the character sheets I couldn't say what's going wrong here. It may be a case of good mechanics on one side and not the other (ie a more optimised psionic character will be better than an un-optimised non-psionic character, but this is due to the optimisation not the psionics). I recently had my 8th level paladin dish out 145 damage in one round by luck more than design.

I get that you are frustrated, but I need more info to help you out.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think Dabbler that argument that you yourself have outlined is that the non-psionic martial IS going to be outclassed in the first round of combat.

Maybe for some fighter players, the ability to make up for it in later rounds isn't sufficient, if the combat does not last long enough.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BB36 wrote:
Just got done with a game tonight and the players who don't play a psion wonder WTF they're doing there and the Psion does TONS more damage, has a much better chance to hit, etc

Have someone in the game roll up an Alchemist. There will be no more complaining about the Psion.


I saw BB36's post in another thread, and it sounded like the Soulknife was able to instantly recharge their Psychic Strike without using an action.... so they were getting the Psychic Strike damage on every attack, and were likely dual-wielding.

I don't see how this is possible, as I've looked into the Soulknife... but I really haven't had a chance to dive into the books yet, so I might be missing something.

Also, from his previous posts, it sounds like the Psionic players in his game may have been using psionic rules/feats from 3.5 edition, which would cause issues I'm sure.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:

I think Dabbler that argument that you yourself have outlined is that the non-psionic martial IS going to be outclassed in the first round of combat.

Maybe for some fighter players, the ability to make up for it in later rounds isn't sufficient, if the combat does not last long enough.

The numbers I crunched were for three-round encounters, and the fighter came out ahead. Not just in damage dealt, but in AC and hit points too.

Ravennus wrote:

I saw BB36's post in another thread, and it sounded like the Soulknife was able to instantly recharge their Psychic Strike without using an action.... so they were getting the Psychic Strike damage on every attack, and were likely dual-wielding.

I don't see how this is possible, as I've looked into the Soulknife... but I really haven't had a chance to dive into the books yet, so I might be missing something.

I concur. A duel wielder may have two psychic strikes charged with the right blade skills, and you might be able to expend psionic focus for a third, but after that you're out - and without psionic focus you have lost out on a lot of other possible advantages.

Also, there are some things psychic strike does not work on.


Psychic strike never struck me as anything close to overpowered. It's fantastic for that first round, twin-blade alpha strike, but after that you really can't use it much in the fight. It's best for TWF guys because they can land it twice but when you burn your focus for another, even with dual imbue, your second round isn't going to get the max number of d8s. Without manifester levels you can't get another focus with Psicrystal Containment either so your stuck with just that one. Also, and this may not be very good optimization, I like some of those feats that let you do things better while focused. Burning the focus for another, lesser Psychic Strike means I lose my 40' base speed, run on the walls powers that I really like.

Anyway, I don't think Psychic Strike needs daily limits because it is limited by the action economy, after that first round in which you turn a guy into swiss cheese you do more damage just stabbing people like normal than you do recharging for more strikes.

That said, while I wouldn't call them overpowered, I think the Soulknife is my favorite class for TWF. Twin Strike and Improved Furious Charge are just beautiful. I also really need to pick up the new book for the Gifted Blade archetype I've been hearing about.

Edit: Not trying to say your wrong about having a problem, I just agree with the others that something screwy is probably happening because RAW I don't see why it should be so bad. As detailed a description of how some of those combats went would probably help the psi-experts here figure it out.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, charging psychic strike is a move action, so if you build a Vital Striker it can be done pretty well. I don't think it outshines a well built fighter in the slightest though.


BB36 wrote:

What does "Manifester Level" mean in psionics? In many cases it means "Caster Level" where a 1st Level Psion is a 1st level Manifester. Now take the Trait "Psionic Knack" that bumps up the "Manifester Level +2"

Now there are some who can point to that meaning their Psion is a 3rd level Manifester and 3rd level manifesters know powers as a 3rd level Psion. I'm not joking

Help your cause by tightening and spelling out in plain language what those terms mean for the various ways you wish to use them

You do realize that core PF/3.5 uses IDENTICAL language to describe caster level, right? RIGHT?

And that Pathfinder has an identical trait. RIGHT?

Let's not ask something of Psionics you're not asking of Core Pathfinder: the ability to magically impart knowledge without having to parse the written language.


Coridan wrote:
Well, charging psychic strike is a move action, so if you build a Vital Striker it can be done pretty well. I don't think it outshines a well built fighter in the slightest though.

The best (or at least my favorite) PsyWar build was half giant, with a maul (nonstandard weapon, I know) that was large, so base 2d8 damage already. Vital Strike, Psionic Strike, and Expansion.

Very mobile harrier/skirmisher that hits...HAARD! 2d8>4d6 (or something like that), and doubled by Vital Strike, +4d6 Psionic Weapon, and all your typical modifiers.


meatrace wrote:
Coridan wrote:
Well, charging psychic strike is a move action, so if you build a Vital Striker it can be done pretty well. I don't think it outshines a well built fighter in the slightest though.

The best (or at least my favorite) PsyWar build was half giant, with a maul (nonstandard weapon, I know) that was large, so base 2d8 damage already. Vital Strike, Psionic Strike, and Expansion.

Very mobile harrier/skirmisher that hits...HAARD! 2d8>4d6 (or something like that), and doubled by Vital Strike, +4d6 Psionic Weapon, and all your typical modifiers.

Do you or would you EVER play a non-psionic character?

If given a generic 10th level character to "take on" another 10th level character and there's $ on the table, would you ever take a non-psionic over a psionic ever?

Shadow Lodge

Yep.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Oh hells yes. I can swarm the psion with summons, I can shut down all but 2-4 powers with minor globe. He has no defense against magic missile... just off the top of my head (I don't have my dreamscarred PDFs handy)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BB36 wrote:

Do you or would you EVER play a non-psionic character?

If given a generic 10th level character to "take on" another 10th level character and there's $ on the table, would you ever take a non-psionic over a psionic ever?

Yes and yes.

Currently I am only playing one psionic character in one of six games I am playing in.

For the second question, which character I would take would depend on what I was facing, but in general the best all-round option would probably be druid.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Aside: I'd point out the XPH was the only book with countermeasures included in its content. I don't recall anti-warlock spells/feats/items in complete arcane, nor anti-artificer stuff in the Eberron Campaign setting.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Pretty much what Matthew said, here.

But then again, if someone wanted to put money down on it, I'd probably say, "What? Seriously? You want to make a bet on who has the best character, when we're rolling dice?"

'Cause, you know, my first level cleric - with none of his spells left, three hit points remaining*, and only daggers and leather armor - once entirely murdered a 7th level TWF ranger at full health. That doesn't mean a first level cleric can or should take on a seventh level ranger. (The GM effectively gave him the Luck domain as a bonus domain after that fight.) Had several people tell me that my cleric (with his STR of 13 and DEX of 14) was "overpowered" after that, because of his performance in that battle. No seriously, I did. Spell-less, unbuffed, under-optimized (for combat) three-hit-points left, dagger-and-leather-armor cleric is totally overpowered!

Point is: luck plays a huge factor, at times, in this game, and colors peoples' perceptions. That story is not a good indicator of what a cleric can do (or that cleric, in specific), nor the ranger. Also, I don't gamble.

But if the question is: would I ever take a non-psionic character (in general):

1) My wizard(s) say(s) I do - Kingmaker and Forgotten Realms campaigns
2) My fighter says I do - Serpent Skull (technically cheating, but eh)
3) My cleric says I do - Homebrew set in homebrew world
4) My sorcerer says I do - Homebrew set in homebrew world
5) My bard says I do - Eberron campaign
6) My ranger says I do - Forgotten Realms campaign

Those are just off the top of my head from recent ones. I've played less psionics games than I have non-psionics games, even though psionics is my preferred style.

* He had plenty of turn/rebuke stuff, but the ranger wasn't undead. This was 3.5, not PF, so Channel Energy didn't work, and, while the ranger. And by "none of his spells left", I don't mean he was buffed up: I mean, quite literally, he was out of spells and had no magical enhancement.


Here's the "Armored Blade", 8th level

Psion:

Strength 20
Dex 16
Int 14

Trait:
Gladiator School

Combat Feats:
Weapon Focus - Mind Blade
Double Slice
Two Weapon Fighting
Extra Blade Skill
Extra Blade Skill

Class Skill:
Form Mind Armaments
Shape Mind Armaments
Throw Mind Armaments
Wild Talent
Weapon Focus: Mind Blade
Quick Draw
Blade Skill - Full Enhancement
Blade Skill - Improved Armor
Blade Skill - Enlarged Blade
Blade Skill - Improved Enhancement
Blade Skill - Alter Blade
Blade Skill - Dual Imbue


Well, I don't think he can have Improved Enhancement yet seeing as that requires 12th level. At level 8 and with Dual Imbue he should be able to open combat with 2d8 psychic strike with each blade, then burn his focus for 1d8 each the second round. After that he needs to burn move actions to imbue, something that will really screw up his offense seeing as he doesn't have Twin Strike. Also I can't seem to find Enlarged Blade on the SRD or in Psionics Expanded, what does that one do?

How does this guy tend to fight? How long are the combats that he busted? Also, what enhancements does he have on his blades?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

OK, so this guy has mind armour and a mind blade, maximum +3 flat enhancement, +4 total enhancement and effects. He's presumably hitting for +14/+14/+9 with either two light mindblades or a light and one-handed mindblade. His psychic strike is only +1d8 when he uses Duel Imbue, and he takes a move action to charge it so there is no way he can recharge it mid-fight without losing a full attack.

He's otherwise dishing 1d8+8/1d6+8/1d8+8 on his hits.

So let's build a TWF fighter with the same base stats and compare them.

Test Fighter:
TEST FIGHTER CR 7
Male Human Fighter 8
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +5
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 28, touch 15, flat-footed 24. . (+11 armor, +1 shield, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 76 (8d10+16)
Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Bravery +2
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Cold Iron Shortsword +14/+9 (1d6+9/17-20/x2) and
. . +1 Mithral Shortsword +14/+9 (1d6+9/17-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +13/+8 (1d3+5/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +13/+8 (1d3+5/20/x2)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Blades, Light
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 19/21, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +13; CMD 28
Feats Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Dodge, Double Slice, Improved Critical: Shortsword, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Shortsword, Weapon Specialization: Shortsword
Traits Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +8, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (Engineering) +5, Perception +5, Ride +7, Stealth +0, Survival +5, Swim +7
Languages Common
SQ Armor Training 2 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Cold Iron Shortsword, +1 Mithral Shortsword, +2 Full Plate; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Giant Strength, +2, Ring of Protection, +1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Training 2 (Ex) Worn armor -2 check penalty, +2 max DEX.
Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) You may make up to 4 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Quick Draw Draw a weapon as a free action. Throw at full rate of attacks.
Two-weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Weapon Training: Blades, Light +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades

I've had to make a few guesses about your guys stats, but this guys should be comparable.

The important difference is dropping a little strength for dexterity to gain Improved TWF, which is important as it hives him attacks of:

+14/+14/+9/+9 for 1d6+9.

What makes a big difference is the threat range of 17-20. This basically ups the DPR by 20%, 10% more than the soulknife can.

So a worse case scenario has your soulknife hitting for three rounds at a typical CR8 foe at AC21:

DPR = 70%+45% of 1d8+8 = 1.15 x 12.5 x 1.1 = 15.8125
Plus 70% of 1d6+8 = .7 x 11.5 x 1.1 = 8.855
Total = 22.6675
Over 3 rounds plus 4d8 = 86.0025

Edit: However, as pointed out Improved Enhancement is minimum level 12th, so that takes his maximum enhancement to +2 to hit and damage. This means he should be on +13/+13/+8 and less damage:
DPR = 65%+40% of 1d8+7 = 1.05 x 11.5 x 1.1 = 13.2825
Plus 65% of 1d6+7 = .65 x 10.5 x 1.1 = 7.5075
Total = 20.79
Over 3 round plus 4d8 = 80.37

Now the fighter vs the same foe:
DPR = 70% + 70% + 45% + 45% of 1d6+9 = 2.3 x 12.5 x 1.2 = 34.5
Over 3 rounds: 103.5

Edit: just to be fair, assuming the weaker fighter (less strength than the SK) is used:
DPR = 65% + 65% + 40% + 40% of 1d6+8 = 2.1 x 11.5 x 1.2 = 28.98
Over 3 rounds: 86.94

So the soulknife is slightly ahead at first, but the longer the fight the better off the fighter is. A typical tough CR8 foe with have 100 hp, so the fighter will kill it in three rounds, the soulknife or the weaker fighter will take four.

I don't know what AC and hit points your soulknife has, but I would guess they are comparable or less than the fighter's AC28 and 76hp.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BayonetPriest wrote:
Well, I don't think he can have Improved Enhancement yet seeing as that requires 12th level.

Well spotted, that reduces his total enhancement to +2 and his odds to hit by 5%.

BayonetPriest wrote:
At level 8 and with Dual Imbue he should be able to open combat with 2d8 psychic strike with each blade,

Duel Imbue reduces the psychic strike damage by 1d8. He can only have either 2d8 in one blade, or 1d8 in each. So max psychic strike damage he can dish is 4d8.

BayonetPriest wrote:
then burn his focus for 1d8 each the second round. After that he needs to burn move actions to imbue, something that will really screw up his offense seeing as he doesn't have Twin Strike. Also I can't seem to find Enlarged Blade on the SRD or in Psionics Expanded, what does that one do?

It's not in Psionics Expanded either.

Let me recalculate above ...


Dabbler wrote:

BayonetPriest wrote:
At level 8 and with Dual Imbue he should be able to open combat with 2d8 psychic strike with each blade,

Duel Imbue reduces the psychic strike damage by 1d8. He can only have either 2d8 in one blade, or 1d8 in each. So max psychic strike damage he can dish is 4d8.

I meant that he would imbue each blade separately outside of combat using the normal imbue rules. According to the SRD you can charge each individual blade normally with a move action. The Dual Imbue is only for in combat use where it does indeed weaken it by 1d8. Personally I would have taken the Blade Skill that bumps it up by a d8 if I was working to max out Psychic Strike.

Andoran

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:
Aside: I'd point out the XPH was the only book with countermeasures included in its content. I don't recall anti-warlock spells/feats/items in complete arcane, nor anti-artificer stuff in the Eberron Campaign setting.

IIRC Magic of Incarnum incled sor/wis spells that could ruin an Incarnum user's day.

Also, I rarely play as a psionic character, but my homebrew has a nation in an anti-magic field wherr psionics is top dog (the ruler is a thrallherd). I use psionics is different and never had an instance with a psionic outshining his fellow PCs. I do have a transmuter who's high DCs and baleful polymorph is getting annoying though.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's a clash in the text, then - I may raise this with DSP. If we assume the SK took the Powerful Strikes option instead of the greater enhancement (which they cannot do) they would do 6d8+4d8 in psychic strike damage, which would add 27 damage to the soulknife's total over 3 rounds, which puts them right on par with the stronger fighter (107 damage vs 103, very little in it).


Dabbler wrote:
That's a clash in the text, then - I may raise this with DSP. If we assume the SK took the Powerful Strikes option instead of the greater enhancement (which they cannot do) they would do 6d8+4d8 in psychic strike damage, which would add 27 damage to the soulknife's total over 3 rounds, which puts them right on par with the stronger fighter (107 damage vs 103, very little in it).

Oh, so it's different in the actual book? I don't have Psionics Unleashed (just got Psionics Expanded though) so I use the SRD for that.

Here's the text from the SRD saying you can imbue two fully charged Psychic Strike so long as you do them individually.

Quote:
If the soulknife forms her mind blade into two weapons, she may imbue each mind blade with psychic strike as normal. If she reshapes her mind blade into a single weapon form, the additional psychic strike imbued into the additional weapon is lost. At every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, etc), the extra damage from a soulknife's psychic strike increases by 1d8.

I don't see that as a problem. It bumps up the power of TWF by a little for the very first attack but that's no different from TWF being better for delivering Sneak Attack damage.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, I mean a clash between Duel Imbue and the text on psychic strike - the first implies that you can only imbue two mind-blades at one dice less, which I understood to be the intention.

I'm pretty sure this soulknife player is either not reading the rules properly or is playing fast and loose with them, though. I can't find Enlarge Blade anywhere, and he certainly took Improved Enhancement earlier than he should have.

The soulknife is good at dishing out damage, but shouldn't be so good they put the fighter out of work. I think we will also find that this soulknife has worse AC and hit points than the fighter we compare him against. The one I made above has 7K of spare gear left by WBL in addition.


Dabbler wrote:
No, I mean a clash between Duel Imbue and the text on psychic strike - the first implies that you can only imbue two mind-blades at one dice less, which I understood to be the intention.

Nah, it don't clash on the SRD. Here's the Dual Imbue text.

Dual Imbue

Quote:
When utilizing multiple mind blades, the soulknife may charge both blades with her psychic strike ability at the same time (including when expending her focus to charge her psychic strike). However, her psychic strike damage is reduced by 1d8 when using this option. Damage remains normal when each weapon is charged separately.

The bolded agrees with the Psychic Strike wording that you can charge each seperately and get full power. Dual Imbue is just for charging them up faster, taking a single move action instead of two or letting you charge both with a single Psionic Focus.

As for what was intended, well you got me there. I think the wording on the SRD is pretty clear but I wasn't there when the class was taking shape.


Dabbler wrote:
BayonetPriest wrote:
Well, I don't think he can have Improved Enhancement yet seeing as that requires 12th level.
Well spotted, that reduces his total enhancement to +2 and his odds to hit by 5%.
BayonetPriest wrote:
At level 8 and with Dual Imbue he should be able to open combat with 2d8 psychic strike with each blade,
Duel Imbue reduces the psychic strike damage by 1d8. He can only have either 2d8 in one blade, or 1d8 in each. So max psychic strike damage he can dish is 4d8.
How does one get 4d8? Would they have to "charge up" each blade with a move action?
Dabbler wrote:
BayonetPriest wrote:
then burn his focus for 1d8 each the second round. After that he needs to burn move actions to imbue, something that will really screw up his offense seeing as he doesn't have Twin Strike. Also I can't seem to find Enlarged Blade on the SRD or in Psionics Expanded, what does that one do?

It's not in Psionics Expanded either.

Let me recalculate above ...

"Enlarged Blade"moves up the damage so instead of:

Light 1d6
Medium 1d8
Heavy 2d6

It becomes
Light 1d8
Medium 2d6
Heavy 2d8

I can't find it either but I was told it's in an older Dreamscarred Press Psionics book

What Psionic books are considered "cannon" for Pathfinder?


BB36 wrote:
How does one get 4d8? Would they have to "charge up" each blade with a move action?

I meant 4d8 total. Basically outside of combat you take a move action to charge one blade with 2d8 and then another to charge the second blade with 2d8. When combat starts you go stab a guy with both blades and discharge them both for a total of 4d8 Psychic Strike damage. Next round you burn your Focus with a swift action and Dual Imbue the blades, letting you charge them both but each at a penalty of one die of damage so they only get 1d8 each. For every following round imbuing your blades is tricky, requiring move actions spent to charge up when it would likely be best just to go on fighting with uncharged blades.

If he does it that way then each fight, barring a major lull when he can charge them back up without any trouble, should be getting a total of 6d8 extra damage out of him from Psychic Strike.

BB36 wrote:

Enlarged Blade"moves up the damage so instead of:

Light 1d6
Medium 1d8
Heavy 2d6

It becomes
Light 1d8
Medium 2d6
Heavy 2d8

I can't find it either but I was told it's in an older Dreamscarred Press Psionics book

What Psionic books are considered "cannon" for Pathfinder?

I'm not 100% on this but I believe the only books out for Pathfinder right now are Psionics Unleashed and now Psionics Expanded, as well as the little individual PDFs that contain specific pieces of Psionics Expanded. Older books would be for 3.5 I think.

Shadow Lodge

Coridan wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Aside: I'd point out the XPH was the only book with countermeasures included in its content. I don't recall anti-warlock spells/feats/items in complete arcane, nor anti-artificer stuff in the Eberron Campaign setting.
IIRC Magic of Incarnum incled sor/wis spells that could ruin an Incarnum user's day.

Yep. And a few psionic powers too.

Tome of Magic included an entire Prestige Class for screwing Binders up, too, and a spell specifically for tormenting Vestiges.


BayonetPriest wrote:
BB36 wrote:
How does one get 4d8? Would they have to "charge up" each blade with a move action?
I meant 4d8 total. Basically outside of combat you take a move action to charge one blade with 2d8 and then another to charge the second blade with 2d8. When combat starts you go stab a guy with both blades and discharge them both for a total of 4d8 Psychic Strike damage. Next round you burn your Focus with a swift action and Dual Imbue the blades, letting you charge them both but each at a penalty of one die of damage so they only get 1d8 each. For every following round imbuing your blades is tricky, requiring move actions spent to charge up when it would likely be best just to go on fighting with uncharged blades.
Wait, do Soulknives even have a focus?
BayonetPriest wrote:
BB36 wrote:
Something about "Enlarged Blade"
I'm not 100% on this but I believe the only books out for Pathfinder right now are Psionics Unleashed and now Psionics Expanded, as well as the little individual PDFs that contain specific pieces of Psionics Expanded. Older books would be for 3.5 I think.

sounds about right

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Ah. I've now met the two people who bought Magic of Incarnum. :P

More seriously, I should have prefaced that with IIRC.

Wasn't Tome of Magic the alpha doc for Radience House's Secrets of Pact Magic ;-)


Dabbler wrote:
BB36 wrote:

Do you or would you EVER play a non-psionic character?

If given a generic 10th level character to "take on" another 10th level character and there's $ on the table, would you ever take a non-psionic over a psionic ever?

Yes and yes.

Currently I am only playing one psionic character in one of six games I am playing in.

For the second question, which character I would take would depend on what I was facing, but in general the best all-round option would probably be druid.

I know you do. My question was to the other person

Shadow Lodge

Matthew Morris wrote:
Ah. I've now met the two people who bought Magic of Incarnum. :P

Heh. My entire group loves it. Since we still play 3.5/PF hybrid games it sees a lot of use.

Quote:
Wasn't Tome of Magic the alpha doc for Radience House's Secrets of Pact Magic ;-)

It might as well have been. I have both. ;)

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