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Honestly I love the power points system, it's more like how magic works in modern fantasy works. No slots or memorizing. You use it, and when you want to make it more powerful you put more effort into it. If you reflavor the Psion as sorcerer and erudite as wizard I wonder if people would be as against it.
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Honestly I love the power points system, it's more like how magic works in modern fantasy works. No slots or memorizing. You use it, and when you want to make it more powerful you put more effort into it.
Exactly my feeling on the matter. The Vancian fire and forget system never appealed to me, as someone who grew up on completely different fantasy novels (Tolkien, Norton, McCaffrey, Feist, Saberhagen, McKillip, Howard, Anthony, etc.), in which the magic-users didn't have to prepare specific spells daily, but could just use whatever magics they'd learned, as many or as few times as their 'power' allowed them to.
Eh, 3.0 was... to put it delicately... awful.
Some of the most creative ideas in theory, but pretty terrible on paper or in practice that I've seen.
Here's the thing. Psionics in 3.0 came down to one of two elements.
1) Psionics v. Psionics: it's a rock-paper-scissors style scenario, where you try to guess the right defensive mode (each round) while also trying to guess the right attack mode (each round) and manifesting points out the wazzoo in order for the privilege to do so. The entire point? If the attack mode hits you, you're taking ability damage. Every round. Which sucks.
2) Psionics v. Non-Psionics: it's a save-or-suck situation every round. The attack modes I mentioned before? If they're used against a non-psionic creature, that creature must make a will save (with a large bonus, mind) or be stunned for various amounts of time (depending on the attack mode you used).
Either way, in addition to all that madness every round, you had your powers that you manifested, though you didn't have many, and you had barely enough power points to suffice. Things got crazy really fast, and it was pretty much awful. I don't remember any augment system in 3.0, but it's been quite a while, so I could be off on that.
Anyway, 3.0 sucked. It was bad, it was broken, and it was awful. Man, I hated psionics.
But then 3.5 happened, oh my word and the Expanded Psionics Handbook was the opposite of whatever derogatory thing you wish to call the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. Attack/defense modes disappeared (they were reorganized into normal powers at normal levels and did the same things to psionic or non-psionic, and had nothing to do with each other), the base classes were well balanced, an oh my word, I've never run into a more clean, dynamic yet also balanced d20 game system.
It just really needed a name - almost any name really - other than "Expanded Psionics Handbook" 'cause that sounds like, "More of the same!" to most people, and the only thing it really had in similarity to the old 3.0 version was the basic idea of Power Points, some names, some art, and the most basic possible gist (getting the theme and spirit, but not even touching the old rules) of the old creatures and some of the prestige classes.
The one thing to look out for? The 3.5 Cerebromancer. That thing's a boss. A boss with a lower caster level/metapsionic cap than a pure either of them, but a boss nonetheless. Also it's slightly broken. But that's mostly due to the arcane stuffs and how it interacts weirdly with some of the psionic stuff which, when left on its own (i.e., you don't have one guy blending both sets of effects for stupid-powerful effects), is balanced.
Basicall: 3.0 is bad and should feel bad. 3.5 is good and should feel good. Everything I've seen from Dreamscarred Press has me convinced that the same is true of Pathfinder psionics.
(* )
EDIT: My guess? Your GM hit them with a 3.0 mindblast, like the mindflayers have. Which was the single most over-powered thing in the old psionics. It did allow a save, but everyone took a huuuuuuuuuge penalty to the save, unless you had the one defense mode - I've forgotten which now - that grants you a comparatively measly bonus to the save. Now only mindflayers have that ability... it is not in the game anymore.
EDIT 2: well, okay, it is in the game, but it's not available to players unless your GM is suddenly interested in letting you play a mindflayer, or you take an obscure set of feats in order to take an equally obscure (and weak) prestige class from the complete psionic, and you're willing to put up with multiple levels of "this range/save sucks, why did I want this" before it gets good, even as you slowly become a mindflayer.
You miss the point completely, they might be abit better at going nova, but mostly it is easier to nova, you can shoot all your points away in a few powerful blasts.Show, don't tell. Matthew just broke it down for you at 20th level.
I think Matthew showed it pretty well.
Basically the psion throws around 9th lvl spells till he runs out and then the party rests.
The same might be said for the sorcerer after using his 5th to 9th level spells.
So you have a psion on one hand tossing 9th lvl powers every round and a sorcerer that doesn't but both will want to rest, psion just burned through all his power and outperformed the sorcerer.
Psions do have powers that can be augmented into swift actions do they not ? It has been a little while since I read psionic unleashed and do not have it handy.
Let me first say I do not hate psionics, some people act like I want to kill their babies by criticizing psionics, if you got counter arguments just give them but leave the attitude please or just don't.
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
You miss the point completely, they might be abit better at going nova, but mostly it is easier to nova, you can shoot all your points away in a few powerful blasts.The way a caster can blow their most powerful spells, the difference being that the caster then has a lot of less powerful spells left, and the psionic often doesn't have much in the way of power points left.
pretty much, neither will be doing much after that. If the GM wants to throw another two hard encounters he might just be able to kill a few PCs since we got a useless psion that totally dominated the previous encounters, not a good thing, the psion likely outperformed the other casters in the time he was useful though, I am not sure that is a good balance at all it seems to make the basic problem with casters worse
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
I understand it :- vancian magic sucks, not just thematically, it is also inconvenient
Vancian casting is powerful, but has limitations that are not extant in many traditional fantasy settings. All the same, I don't think you can say that 'Vancian casting sucks' when the casters are often the most powerful characters in D&D.
It has limitations, doing away with those limitations makes casters stronger.. 'casters are often the most powerful characters in D&D'
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- spells without components is cool, and handy besides, without paying much higher spell slots, few people can imprison or restrain a psion, gag them, tie them up and take away their possessions you dont care, and you can put on fullplate if you want.I have rarely seen any player character restrained or imprisoned, and the easiest way of preventing ANY casting or manifesting class from functioning is to not let them rest. As for the full plate, see above. Eschew Materials is a way of avoiding simple material components, and sorcerers get it for free.
grapples are common enough, silence isn't rare, sneak casting is entirely possible with psionics as written, the ability to wear armor and use shields can be very useful. Sorcerers get eschew materials for free, clerics can cast in armor, wizards have comparable versatility when prepared properly (the benefits compared to a psion rarely happen)
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- metamagic in general sucks, using feats for it sucks more.Good job you have metamagic rods then. However bad you think it is, metapsionics are worse. Say at 10th level you want to throw an Empowered fireball. That takes up a 5th level spell-slot, which is harsh. Now say a psionic wants to throw an Empowered energy bolt, he has to expend 10 power points, more than the caster's resources, as well as his psionic focus (which means he has to spend a round doing nothing to regain it before he can throw another one) and to top it off, his attack only does 8d6 base damage against the caster's 10d6.
Ohm and energy ball is the equivelant of fireball, and is a 4th level power restricted to kineticists, not a 3rd.
True, metamagic rods is something I consider broken all by it's own, I do not think x-item should be a compelling argument, lets assume there will be metapsionic crystals to compensate (not too far fetched I think), there is a feat to regain focus faster if I am not mistaken which is pretty much mandetory, I also recall an option to overchannel.
The powers at first glance might be less suitable for raw blasting, though psions can switch energy types at will and always cast them silent, still, without components.. kinda makes you think it might make up for it, there probably are other ways to boost damage considerably though (energy specialization or some such, cant recall exactly)
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- no delayed access but still playing with spontaneous magic.Is it? The psion has accelerated access compared to the sorcerer, yes, but he's meant to be comparable to the wizard. Now look at the number of powers...36 powers at level 20 against a specialist wizard's 52 spells or the sorcerer's 56 spells. Also, many powers that are more effective are delayed by a levl (see energy ball above) by being higher level.
shouldn't you look at spells known compared to powers known ?
5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3, not counting cantrips that is 34 spells, if you count bloodline spells 43. Difference here being that the psion gets higher level access earlier and that it's powers are way more versatile a 1st lvl spell can function as a 9th lvl power, energy blasts can be changed type at the spot and spells can be changed from standard to swift and other fun tricks.AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- versatility in use that no spellcasting class can matchNo, the prepared casters do not match their versitility, they far surpass it by changing their spell lists daily. The sorcerer can match the versatility of the psion from their number of spells - 56 spells vs the psion's 36 powers. Some powers may be more versatile than the equivelant spells, but this is only evening the scales somewhat. A sorcerer can have 56 completely unrelated spells, a psion has powers that run along a theme. Overall, they largely match one another.
changing spell lists daily sounds nice, mostly it comes down to small changes in a standard spell list, rare is the event it matches up to the innate versatility in some of the powers, there might be a rare advantage to be had there but I think the psion in general outclasses the wizard and sorcerer in versatility most adventuring days
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- relatively easy bookkeepingYou mean tracking power points rather than crossing off spells on a sheet? Hardly rocket science in either case.
well that is something I like about psions, maybe not a big deal for you I just like the way it plays, remove some points and keep your spell list intact, guess it is not really an advantage as such
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- no outwards signs you are a caster.Casters do not have obvious outward signs they are a caster until they cast, unless they want to hang a neon sign around their necks. The fact that psionics have 'displays' that make it obvious what is going on most of the time kind of negates this argument. It's obvious when a caster casts, it's obvious when a manifester manifests. The only exceptions are some of the purely mental powers, and these are obvious to the recipient only - but then a caster can take feats to cast inobviously with any spell.
manifesters have an easy time hiding their manifestations, along with the fact that they do not use any components, might or might not wear armor (probably will wear at least some light armor and carry a shield), they also do not have symbols or components and they don't have auras or dogmas to uphold
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
* these are all cool, but besides being cool they are also just plain better than traditional casters, it is hard to argue that base casters are underpowered. The fact that you can expend your points easily by going nuts using powers does not fix it. It seems they got alot of spare feats to spend on cooler stuff too..You headed this with 'I understand' and sadly like many that criticise the psionics rules you don't seem very familiar with them. Psionics are not better than traditional casters, although they are different. There are things casters can do better than manifesters, and vice verse, but in most things magic is actually the winner.
to be honest, I seem about as familiar with them as you are though that is probably something you say to justify the psionic rules and fend of criticism. I do not dislike the system, I find it isn't a good match with the 'other' magic system in PF mechanically but I 'like' it more.
Here is the psionics problem from a publisher side. One, it is a new subsystem that the GM has to learn, and a fairly complicated one at that. 3.5 was the most balanced psionics system that they have done (I didn't look at 4e), but there are a lot of rules that can get missed. The biggest one being the PP limit per casting. Also how does PP and spell levels interact for multicasting? Paizo's leaning towards Vancian casting for psychic magic because this one goes away then.
Two, there is the still left over from 2nd edition opinion that psionics are overpowered. It doesn't matter how balanced or awesome a rules set you make if a majority of the players view psionics as broken. As I said the 3.5 rules are some of the best ever, but there is a large part of the community that says they are broken, because they are psionics. Paizo once again leans toward Vancian casting because those players and GMs can look at the rules and know how they work.
So the question becomes are there enough new people who will be willing to try the psychic magic rules, and enough psionic fans that will still pick them up to make the publishing worth while?
Is there anything better than a psion at undetected casting in highly social campaigns?
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So you have a psion on one hand tossing 9th lvl powers every round and a sorcerer that doesn't but both will want to rest, psion just burned through all his power and outperformed the sorcerer.
Except that most of those '9th level powers' are actually fully augmented 5th-9th level powers that cost that much in resources, but that the sorcerer gets augmented for free. In other words, both have done about the same.
Psions do have powers that can be augmented into swift actions do they not ? It has been a little while since I read psionic unleashed and do not have it handy.
There are a few, and power point cost of doing so is pretty horrendous. There are occasions when it's useful but it sure costs.
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
You miss the point completely, they might be a bit better at going nova, but mostly it is easier to nova, you can shoot all your points away in a few powerful blasts.The way a caster can blow their most powerful spells, the difference being that the caster then has a lot of less powerful spells left, and the psionic often doesn't have much in the way of power points left.
pretty much, neither will be doing much after that. If the GM wants to throw another two hard encounters he might just be able to kill a few PCs since we got a useless psion that totally dominated the previous encounters, not a good thing, the psion likely outperformed the other casters in the time he was useful though, I am not sure that is a good balance at all it seems to make the basic problem with casters worse
Why did the psionic outperform the casters with their nova? Well actually they probably didn't. Many of those high-level powers were augmented lower level powers that had the same effect as a 6th level spell but cost the same resources as a 9th or higher.
Consider a 9th level spell, it costs the caster the equivelant of 17 power points. Consider a 9th level power, it will cost a minimum of 17 power points - but if it is a damaging power, for example, it will cost 20 power points at 20th level to augment it to full effect, a full effect the caster gets for free.
Your argument for the psion outperforming the sorcerer or wizard seems to be "just because" rather than based on any evidential enquiry.
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
I understand it :- vancian magic sucks, not just thematically, it is also inconvenient
Vancian casting is powerful, but has limitations that are not extant in many traditional fantasy settings. All the same, I don't think you can say that 'Vancian casting sucks' when the casters are often the most powerful characters in D&D.
It has limitations, doing away with those limitations makes casters stronger.. 'casters are often the most powerful characters in D&D'
Unless said limitations are replaced by other limitations, which is the case with psionics.
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- spells without components is cool, and handy besides, without paying much higher spell slots, few people can imprison or restrain a psion, gag them, tie them up and take away their possessions you dont care, and you can put on fullplate if you want.I have rarely seen any player character restrained or imprisoned, and the easiest way of preventing ANY casting or manifesting class from functioning is to not let them rest. As for the full plate, see above. Eschew Materials is a way of avoiding simple material components, and sorcerers get it for free.
grapples are common enough, silence isn't rare, sneak casting is entirely possible with psionics as written, the ability to wear armor and use shields can be very useful. Sorcerers get eschew materials for free, clerics can cast in armor, wizards have comparable versatility when prepared properly (the benefits compared to a psion rarely happen)
Grapples will shut down a manifester as easily as they shut down a caster, you still need to make that concentration check. The ability to wear armour and carry a shield is over-rated and I've not seen any psion do so. Psychic warriors are a different matter, but then they are an entirely different manifester.
As for the advantages of a wizard rarely happening, all I can say is you must have seen some pretty awful wizards being played.
As for spell components, they have only ever become an issue with really expensive components - the rest are pretty much taken for granted in all the games I have played. The power equivalents of these spells with expensive components often have their own limitations built in instead.
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- metamagic in general sucks, using feats for it sucks more.Good job you have metamagic rods then. However bad you think it is, metapsionics are worse. Say at 10th level you want to throw an Empowered fireball. That takes up a 5th level spell-slot, which is harsh. Now say a psionic wants to throw an Empowered energy bolt, he has to expend 10 power points, more than the caster's resources, as well as his psionic focus (which means he has to spend a round doing nothing to regain it before he can throw another one) and to top it off, his attack only does 8d6 base damage against the caster's 10d6.
Ohm and energy ball is the equivelant of fireball, and is a 4th level power restricted to kineticists, not a 3rd.
True, metamagic rods is something I consider broken all by it's own, I do not think x-item should be a compelling argument, lets assume there will be metapsionic crystals to compensate (not too far fetched I think), there is a feat to regain focus faster if I am not mistaken which is pretty much mandetory, I also recall an option to overchannel.
This would be an incorrect assumption, there are no metamagic-rod equivalents in the Psionics Unleashed released by DSP.
As for Overchannel, yes it exists, costs a feat, costs damage, and doesn't compensate for the reduced power points you have to spend - in the above example, the psion would be shelling out 9d6 base damage vs 10d6. Gosh.
In other words, the psion is still behind the curve in metamagic whichever way you look at it.
The powers at first glance might be less suitable for raw blasting, though psions can switch energy types at will and always cast them silent, still, without components.. kinda makes you think it might make up for it, there probably are other ways to boost damage considerably though (energy specialization or some such, cant recall exactly)
Energy Specialisation was a 3.5 feat and not included in the Pathfinder update by Dreamscarred Press, so it's out of the running. I would still say, though, that blasting is a better option for a psion in terms of damage they can deal. The problem is that the specialist psionics have access to a power selection unavailable to other specialists. This complicates things, as options available to all wizards and sorcerers are NOT available to all psions.
In the case of direct damage, the kineticist is the specialist. He can flip freely between energy types (other psions have to expend psionic focus to change energy types) and he has access to better damage-dealing powers. However, these are the powers that need to be augmented, and while the damage may be good (varied energy types, some of which score extra damage) in area effect terms they are poor. The psion's good area-effect powers are a level higher than those in the wizard/sorcerer spell lists, meaning that for these the psion is behind the sorcerer in gaining the powers.
The comparison simply isn't that simple. Being able to manifest powers silently without anyone knowing where they came from may work fine in theory, but with the blasting powers they are really only going to give you an element of surprise before all hell breaks loose, after which there's not much point to them. Being able to silently charm someone is of much more use than being able to stealthily incinerate them, because the latter effect becomes very obvious very fast.
So yes, a psion can deal out better direct damage than a wizard or sorcerer - but these are powers that need augmenting, so a 1st level energy ray at 5d6 base damage costs as much as a 3rd level spell slot, and the area effects are bad. So in fact a psion is better at directly damaging a specific target than the wizard or sorcerer is the best we can definitively say.
And direct damage is about the worst option for a caster or manifester in general.
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- no delayed access but still playing with spontaneous magic.Is it? The psion has accelerated access compared to the sorcerer, yes, but he's meant to be comparable to the wizard. Now look at the number of powers...36 powers at level 20 against a specialist wizard's 52 spells or the sorcerer's 56 spells. Also, many powers that are more effective are delayed by a levl (see energy ball above) by being higher level.
shouldn't you look at spells known compared to powers known ?
5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3, not counting cantrips that is 34 spells, if you count bloodline spells 43. Difference here being that the psion gets higher level access earlier and that it's powers are way more versatile a 1st lvl spell can function as a 9th lvl power, energy blasts can be changed type at the spot and spells can be changed from standard to swift and other fun tricks.
I did, and with the addition of cantrips. After all many first level powers are actually equivalents of 0-level spells, so should we discount 1st level powers from the list as well? Add the cantrips and the sorcerer gets 52 spells known (my bad, can't recall where I got 56 from) compared to the psion's 36. Either way, the sorcerer has about 50% more spells than the psion has powers.
In terms of casting power, the 20th level sorcerer with 20 Charisma has the equivelant of 512 power points in spells. The psion with 20 Int has only 393.
As to the point about levels, see my point above: many powers are available a level later than the equivelant spells, or are in specialist lists and unavailable at all without a feat. Hence a sorcerer may well have a better spell selection than the psion has a power selection.
Again the comparison is not as simple as you would have us believe. Sure the psion can get energy line a level before the sorcerer gets lightning bolt, but he gets energy ball a level after the sorcerer gets fireball, and I know which I'd rather have.
Bottom line, the sorcerer has more spells and more casting power and the psion has more flexible powers and a more versatile resource management system. The two actually do balance out.
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- versatility in use that no spellcasting class can matchNo, the prepared casters do not match their versitility, they far surpass it by changing their spell lists daily. The sorcerer can match the versatility of the psion from their number of spells - 56 spells vs the psion's 36 powers. Some powers may be more versatile than the equivelant spells, but this is only evening the scales somewhat. A sorcerer can have 56 completely unrelated spells, a psion has powers that run along a theme. Overall, they largely match one another.
changing spell lists daily sounds nice, mostly it comes down to small changes in a standard spell list, rare is the event it matches up to the innate versatility in some of the powers, there might be a rare advantage to be had there but I think the psion in general outclasses the wizard and sorcerer in versatility most adventuring days
I disagree, the psion and the sorcerer are about on a level playing field and the wizard is above both of them in terms of versatility.
If half the psions powers have double the versatility of an equivelant spell (less than half the total power available to be known do, but some have greater versatility than others and they will probably be selected preferentially) then the psion's 36 powers known become the equivelant of 54 spells known, which compares well to the sorcerer's 52 spells known. Plus, the psion is blocked from a selection of powers by his speciality, the sorcerer isn't.
Whether the wizard's greater flexibility is 'better' than either of these depends on the player, but a skilled player will always make a wizard count by having the one right spell instead of two almost-right ones.
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- relatively easy bookkeepingYou mean tracking power points rather than crossing off spells on a sheet? Hardly rocket science in either case.
well that is something I like about psions, maybe not a big deal for you I just like the way it plays, remove some points and keep your spell list intact, guess it is not really an advantage as such
Oh I like it too, I am just pointing out out that it is not intrinsically harder or easier than crossing off spells known.
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
- no outwards signs you are a caster.Casters do not have obvious outward signs they are a caster until they cast, unless they want to hang a neon sign around their necks. The fact that psionics have 'displays' that make it obvious what is going on most of the time kind of negates this argument. It's obvious when a caster casts, it's obvious when a manifester manifests. The only exceptions are some of the purely mental powers, and these are obvious to the recipient only - but then a caster can take feats to cast inobviously with any spell.
manifesters have an easy time hiding their manifestations, along with the fact that they do not use any components, might or might not wear armor (probably will wear at least some light armor and carry a shield), they also do not have symbols or components and they don't have auras or dogmas to uphold
Wizards don't have auras or dogmas, can wear light armour and carry darkwood bucklers, what of it? True the psion can manifest a little more stealthily on a concentration check rather than needing feats to make it automatic. This is an advantage in a stealth & intrigue oriented game I will agree, but not a huge one that unbalances the entire system.
AnnoyingOrange wrote:
* these are all cool, but besides being cool they are also just plain better than traditional casters, it is hard to argue that base casters are underpowered. The fact that you can expend your points easily by going nuts using powers does not fix it. It seems they got alot of spare feats to spend on cooler stuff too..You headed this with 'I understand' and sadly like many that criticise the psionics rules you don't seem very familiar with them. Psionics are not better than traditional casters, although they are different. There are things casters can do better than manifesters, and vice verse, but in most things magic is actually the winner.
to be honest, I seem about as familiar with them as you are though that is probably something you say to justify the psionic rules and fend of criticism. I do not dislike the system, I find it isn't a good match with the 'other' magic system in PF mechanically but I 'like' it more.
Well I was involved with the Dreamscarred play-testing, so I won't pretend I am not biased in that respect. However, it's pretty clear from some of your statements about spell levels and power levels, about items and metamagic/metapsionics and others that your knowledge of some parts of the system is somewhat lacking. That's perfectly OK, I don't mind dispelling myths and misconceptions and I do agree some parts of the psionics system do look overpowered at first glance. But I've played them, tested them, and know them well, and actually they do balance in my experience with conventional magic.
Anyone care to take a swing at this argument? The GM I am with right now does not allow psionics because of his experience with them from what I understand to be D&D v. 3.0, and his argument is that you can take any level ten psion and pit them against any other class/race combo including a template and the psion will win hands down every single time and possibly even without taking damage. I have tried to counter his arguments to the best of my ability, but through a combination of his stubbornness and the fact that I have only been playing D&D since September of last year. I love playing magic users in any game but I want out from under the vancian system so bad :(
Well, 3.0 is not 3.5 and that is not Pathfinder. At each level broken elements of the system have been removed or modified to improved it. There were broken parts of 3.5 casting Pathfinder fixed, and Dreamscarred did the same with the psionics system when they updated it.
There's a thread for a psionics-oriented on-line game here if he wants to see how they play out in a normal game.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Psions do have powers that can be augmented into swift actions do they not ? It has been a little while since I read psionic unleashed and do not have it handy.
Shorter Orange.
"I don't know the psionics rules. I can't prove my arguments. I just know they're right."
Psions do have powers that can be augmented into swift actions do they not ? It has been a little while since I read psionic unleashed and do not have it handy.Shorter Orange.
"I don't know the psionics rules. I can't prove my arguments. I just know they're right."
Are you always this obnoxious ?
I do not know all the rules from the top of my head, and when I don't I do not pretend to know them. My arguments in general are well founded wether you agree with them or not.
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Except they're not. Matthew and Dabbler have been debunking you left and right.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Psions do have powers that can be augmented into swift actions do they not ? It has been a little while since I read psionic unleashed and do not have it handy.Shorter Orange.
"I don't know the psionics rules. I can't prove my arguments. I just know they're right."
Are you always this obnoxious ?
I do not know all the rules from the top of my head, and when I don't I do not pretend to know them. My arguments in general are well founded wether you agree with them or not.
Only when you're annoying, and wrong. So far you're two for two. You've admitted you don't know the rules. You've refused to 'put up or shut up' only arguing with "I'm right."
Guess what, if you want to try Arguing from Authority on psionics (which is all you're doing "I'm right and my arguments are well founded."), unless you're name is Bruce Cordell, or you are part of Dreamscarred, against me, you lose.
Except that most of those '9th level powers' are actually fully augmented 5th-9th level powers that cost that much in resources, but that the sorcerer gets augmented for free. In other words, both have done about the same.
Augmenting those powers is an option though, you can choose to use your 9th lvl powers instead, perhaps you pay a bit more for something you could not otherwise do at all ?
Psions do have powers that can be augmented into swift actions do they not ? It has been a little while since I read psionic unleashed and do not have it handy.
There are a few, and power point cost of doing so is pretty horrendous. There are occasions when it's useful but it sure costs.
I recall them being cheaper then quickened spells on many occasions though, not all powers need to be paid for to increase in power along manifester level.
Why did the psionic outperform the casters with their nova? Well actually they probably didn't. Many of those high-level powers were augmented lower level powers that had the same effect as a 6th level spell but cost the same resources as a 9th or higher.
Consider a 9th level spell, it costs the caster the equivelant of 17 power points. Consider a 9th level power, it will cost a minimum of...
Many times you do not have to increase powers, in some cases you do of course. Maybe I am overestimating the flexibility of psionic powers but having the right power for the job seems much more likely in the psionic system, every power once chosen remains a viable option in many situations. This means you often end up having the right tool for the job at hand which makes it more powerful in that situation.
I will not copy out all of the post since it got to be a bit long but :
In regard to wizards, they can be very powerful in the right situation with the right spell, but as often as unexpected things happen in a typical adventure it is hard to have the right spells prepared in many cases. Unskilled or focused players are generally better off playing a sorcerer, psions are very versatile with their selection of powers without having to prepare for a specific situation. I think this versatility will play into a benefit for the psion more often than not.
Good point about the specialist lists restricting psions somewhat.
I find at higher level play casters get stuck not using their lower level spells regardless, and use some spells in less than optimal situations because they do not have other good options, this seemed to be less of an issue with psions.
I have seen psions wear armor and use shields often after a level dip, though I havent had a psion in my game with PF rules in 3.5 it did pay off.
I did not mean to say that there was an item like metamagic rods for psions, I am just saying that shouldn't be a balancing factor, if the classes are about equal there is no reason for the psion not to have a similar item.
Psions do have powers that can be augmented into swift actions do they not ? It has been a little while since I read psionic unleashed and do not have it handy.Shorter Orange.
"I don't know the psionics rules. I can't prove my arguments. I just know they're right."
Are you always this obnoxious ?
I do not know all the rules from the top of my head, and when I don't I do not pretend to know them. My arguments in general are well founded wether you agree with them or not.
Only when you're annoying, and wrong. So far you're two for two. You've admitted you don't know the rules. You've refused to 'put up or shut up' only arguing with "I'm right."
Guess what, if you want to try Arguing from Authority on psionics (which is all you're doing "I'm right and my arguments are well founded."), unless you're name is Bruce Cordell, or you are part of Dreamscarred, against me, you lose.
So you admit you are deliberately obnoxious and biased, I am giving you an opinion, you don't agree that is fine, but at least be a bit civil about it.
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So you admit you are deliberately obnoxious and biased, I am giving you an opinion, you don't agree that is fine, but at least be a bit civil about it.Psions do have powers that can be augmented into swift actions do they not ? It has been a little while since I read psionic unleashed and do not have it handy.Shorter Orange.
"I don't know the psionics rules. I can't prove my arguments. I just know they're right."
Are you always this obnoxious ?
I do not know all the rules from the top of my head, and when I don't I do not pretend to know them. My arguments in general are well founded wether you agree with them or not.
Only when you're annoying, and wrong. So far you're two for two. You've admitted you don't know the rules. You've refused to 'put up or shut up' only arguing with "I'm right."
Guess what, if you want to try Arguing from Authority on psionics (which is all you're doing "I'm right and my arguments are well founded."), unless you're name is Bruce Cordell, or you are part of Dreamscarred, against me, you lose.
*laugh* This is me being civil. Your entire argument consists of "I don't know the rules, I'm right." No matter how many times you're shown to be wrong, you cling to your belief you're right like Leonardo DiCaprio to a piece of driftwood.
"You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts."
Unless you can *show* psions being 'more powerful' then you're being 'obnoxious and biased.' All your whining about me being uncivil doesn't change that you're wrong. Period.
Except they're not. Matthew and Dabbler have been debunking you left and right.
A matter of opinion, Dabbler put forth some good points and done so without being a douche. Feel free to educate me on the fine points of psionics but do it politely or just don't.
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A matter of opinion
Errr, no it's not opinion, it's math.
Unless you can *show* psions being 'more powerful' then you're being 'obnoxious and biased.' All your whining about me being uncivil doesn't change that you're wrong. Period.
I am not trying to show psionics is more powerful, merely saying it is a poor match for PF. That is an opinion, one you do not agree with. Apparently I have to join your religion before I have the right to discuss it with you, which is fine, just don't.
A matter of opinionErrr, no it's not opinion, it's math.
I don't discount the math, just the math as basis for the argument they make. Furthermore it is only used for a small fraction of the argument.
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Unless you can *show* psions being 'more powerful' then you're being 'obnoxious and biased.' All your whining about me being uncivil doesn't change that you're wrong. Period.I am not trying to show psionics is more powerful, merely saying it is a poor match for PF. That is an opinion, one you do not agree with. Apparently I have to join your religion before I have the right to discuss it with you, which is fine, just don't.
No, you just need to accept math. You can have an opinion about the world being flat. It doesn't make it any less wrong.
You said this:
The power point system has it's charm, but it is hard to balance and in part that is why I think players like it, they can break the rules of the game.
A few reasons why I consider psionic unleashed a bad match for PF :
- You can nova like crazy, more than any other class.
We've shown that a) it's not hard to balance, as it is balanced. b) players don't like it because 'they can break the game' (aside: I missed the "all psionic fans want to break the game" part of your 'argument') c) They cannot 'nova like crazy, more than any other class.' bonus: D armor class is a matter of spending resources.
When matched with your admission you don't know what you're talking about, all you've shown is you're 'being a douche' arguing about things you don't know.
ok Matt lets try to play nice.
a) yes it is balanced, I am not sure it is balanced well for PF.
b) what I mean by that is that players like to do things differently, breaking the rules of the game doesn't mean necesarily overpowered on it's own. By going outside the capabilities of the base classes you can overcome obstacles in unexpected ways. It is like getting access to create pit spells the first time, you try to make the best out of something that hasn't been tried al that often yet.
c) maybe I use nova wrong, people seem to draw a direct line to damage potential. I simply mean they tend to spend PSP fast because they can, it might be more powerful or not, I tend to think they are more effective at great expense of PSP. This is true for all spellcasters but psions seem to burn out much faster.
d) yes it is, the ability to wear armor and shields is a benefit even though it might not be a great benefit, it does make multi-class a more appealing option for psions. Clerics can do that too, but I think the 'powers' compare better to the capabilities of wizards and sorcerers, if clerics were on the same scale with spells they would be the best casters in the game.
Once more, I do not dislike psionics and would like it to work well within PF, I just have doubts it competes fairly against other casters, a fair concern since they are the highest 'tiers' in the game, empowering fullcasters more is not what I want to do, neither do I want to encourage a 15 minute adventuring day.
Except that most of those '9th level powers' are actually fully augmented 5th-9th level powers that cost that much in resources, but that the sorcerer gets augmented for free. In other words, both have done about the same.Augmenting those powers is an option though, you can choose to use your 9th lvl powers instead, perhaps you pay a bit more for something you could not otherwise do at all ?
That sometimes occurs yes, but as I have pointed out while some powers are undoubtedly more versatile than spells, they are not necessarily better. The psion gets fewer powers than the wizard or sorcerer gets spells, so the two factors balance one another out.
Where augmentation really hurts is in the total 'power output' for the day for the psionic character: To get the full effect out of a power they often have to augment, which is the equivelant of the spell taking up a higher spell slot.
I recall them being cheaper then quickened spells on many occasions though, not all powers need to be paid for to increase in power along manifester level.Psions do have powers that can be augmented into swift actions do they not ? It has been a little while since I read psionic unleashed and do not have it handy.
There are a few, and power point cost of doing so is pretty horrendous. There are occasions when it's useful but it sure costs.
While you don't have to expend a feat to perform them, they do usually cost +4pp to get this effect, which in turn means the equivelant of +2 spell levels. You also have to bear in mind that this added expenditure counts against the level-cap for power points on any given power. Hence you can't augment it in other ways if you are using this option.
This is a significant limitation that dogs psionics, and one I have experienced in full.
Many times you do not have to increase powers, in some cases you do of course.Why did the psionic outperform the casters with their nova? Well actually they probably didn't. Many of those high-level powers were augmented lower level powers that had the same effect as a 6th level spell but cost the same resources as a 9th or higher.
Consider a 9th level spell, it costs the caster the equivelant of 17 power points. Consider a 9th level power, it will cost a minimum of...
Generally if the power has a major effect that scales with level (other than range and duration) then it requires augmenting. Many powers don't but these are usually the 'utility' powers that are not the meat and drink of the class.
Maybe I am overestimating the flexibility of psionic powers but having the right power for the job seems much more likely in the psionic system, every power once chosen remains a viable option in many situations. This means you often end up having the right tool for the job at hand which makes it more powerful in that situation.Generally, less than half of powers can be augmented as I have stated. Even if on average each power is worth 1-1/2 spells due to some having augment options spells don't have, this only places the psion on parity with the sorcerer. And those options COST in power points! This can't be said enough times, I have played psionic characters a lot and without novaring, they still run out of power points alarmingly fast if you are not careful.
Take energy ray - you can have up to four energy types out of it, which makes it worth four spells at first glance. However, if you had a sorcerer would you take all four energy types of the same spell if you had to take them separately? Probably not. Ultimately, energy ray can only damage targets. It's likely to find a way of damaging them but that's all it does. You can augment it up to 20d6 damage at 20th level if you want, true, but it still gets stopped dead by a minor globe of invulnerability because it is still only a 1st level power.
It has it's advantages, which is why it is a popular power to take so that your manifester has a damaging option, but it isn't really broken because you can only do one thing with it.
I will not copy out all of the post since it got to be a bit long but :
In regard to wizards, they can be very powerful in the right situation with the right spell, but as often as unexpected things happen in a typical adventure it is hard to have the right spells prepared in many cases. Unskilled or focused players are generally better off playing a sorcerer, psions are very versatile with their selection of powers without having to prepare for a specific situation. I think this versatility will play into a benefit for the psion more often than not.
I really don't see how a psion is any more versatile than a sorcerer. Even going through the Psionics Unleashed book and counting each power equal to a number of spells equivelant to it's number of effects, (and people have) the total number of 'spells' equivelant both have come out about the same. Morover, the system of getting additional spell effects limits the psionic character to just those spell effects.
For example, compelling voice is a lot like suggestion in it's function, but the augment means you can effect more people at higher levels. However, you can never effect as many as mass suggestion can influence by a long way. So it's not as good as suggestion and mass suggestion combined, but better than suggestion alone. Even if you call that two spells' worth, a sorcerer might choose to take one or the other, and have a free spell for another effect.
In short, both have pros and cons, but overall, I can't see how a psion is more versatile.
Good point about the specialist lists restricting psions somewhat.Thank you. It's a major sticking point because those specialist powers are not available for other specialities, and they really tend to be the best options for that school. It's like only allowing evokers to learn fireball.
I find at higher level play casters get stuck not using their lower level spells regardless, and use some spells in less than optimal situations because they do not have other good options, this seemed to be less of an issue with psions.This is true, some powers do have more life in them, but the augmentation does cost to keep them relevant. On the flip side, many wizards and sorcerers can keep their low-level spells relevant if they choose the right spells. The point is to avoid trap spells like sleep which while great at low level quickly become all but useless - a smart sorcerer will swap this out at higher levels. What most arcane casters do is save their low-level spells for utility rather than anything else.
I have seen psions wear armor and use shields often after a level dip, though I havent had a psion in my game with PF rules in 3.5 it did pay off.Honestly, if I was playing a psion (and I have before now) I wouldn't bother with armour. It's a different story for a psychic warrior, of course, but then that's part of their concept, just as it is for the magus.
I did not mean to say that there was an item like metamagic rods for psions, I am just saying that shouldn't be a balancing factor, if the classes are about equal there is no reason for the psion not to have a similar item.I do you your point, but the fact remains that metapsionics are pretty awful compared to metamagic thanks to the power-point cap. It's a disadvantage of the system compared to magic and helps as a balancing factor.
a) yes it is balanced, I am not sure it is balanced well for PF.
This was my main concern as a contributor to the DSP playtests, and I say with pride that I drove them dotty with 'what if' on any number of occasions playing devil's advocate.
I think it is well balanced for PF, from what I have run and tested so far.
b) what I mean by that is that players like to do things differently, breaking the rules of the game doesn't mean necesarily overpowered on it's own. By going outside the capabilities of the base classes you can overcome obstacles in unexpected ways. It is like getting access to create pit spells the first time, you try to make the best out of something that hasn't been tried al that often yet.
I can see where you are coming from, and it sends alarm bells to me as well. However I must point out that this happens every time a new spell comes out. As long as the spell is balanced, the DM learns to adapt to it and moves on. So far, there are some things that psionics can do differently than magic, a few they can do better. These do not seem to greatly influence the structure or the balance of the game, so far.
c) maybe I use nova wrong, people seem to draw a direct line to damage potential. I simply mean they tend to spend PSP fast because they can, it might be more powerful or not, I tend to think they are more effective at great expense of PSP. This is true for all spellcasters but psions seem to burn out much faster.
That's because the blasting psionic is the easiest to nova because his powers are largely augmentable. Yes, a psionic character can burn through power points fast, just as a caster can go through their best spells very fast. They learn to husband their resources with experience, though.
d) yes it is, the ability to wear armor and shields is a benefit even though it might not be a great benefit, it does make multi-class a more appealing option for psions. Clerics can do that too, but I think the 'powers' compare better to the capabilities of wizards and sorcerers, if clerics were on the same scale with spells they would be the best casters in the game.
This is not a problem, really. The most powerful psion is a pure psion at any level; taking levels in, say, fighter, will only reduce their power while gaining them other options that may look cool but are not 'optimal' for them. The main reason for doing this is usually thematic, and if it helps a player realise his concept easier, how is this a bad thing?
Once more, I do not dislike psionics and would like it to work well within PF, I just have doubts it competes fairly against other casters, a fair concern since they are the highest 'tiers' in the game, empowering fullcasters more is not what I want to do, neither do I want to encourage a 15 minute adventuring day.
I understand you concerns. The 15-minute day IS an issue that hasty players will run into. My advice is that like the casters they will learn with experience; don't pander to it and they will learn faster.
As for the 'competition' I don't think it's an issue. Consider the schools of magic a moment:
Abjuration - there's no psionic equivelant. Some similar effects are split up among the other disciplines, but by and large this one belongs to the casters.
Conjuration - largely matched by metacreativity, which does not include such things as teleportation which are part of the psychoportation discipline.
Divination - largely matched by the clairsentience powers.
Enchantment - largely matched by the telepathy discipline.
Evocation - largely matched by the kineticist speciality, which perhaps exceeds it.
Illusion - a few telepathy powers touch on the concept, but largely there is no equivalence in psionics leaving illusions to casters.
Necromancy - no equivelant, although a few powers have similar effects, this one is also the domain of the casters.
Transmutation - some of the powers are matched in psychometabolism, although many are personal in effect. Some are also matched in psychoportation.
There is clearly a lot that a caster can do that a psionic cannot. Sure, an evoker in the same party as a kineticist or a blasting wilder will probably feel overshadowed when it comes to blowing things up, but that's about the worst that can happen.
Most people regard metamagic in general useless with a few exceptions, intensify, empower and quicken mostly. In your opinion is there a use for metapsionics or is it near useless ?
I understand that everything pretty much drains PP, but that is actually one of my objections to the class since it might not last that many encounters at capacity, but unlike the sorcerer often able to use it's full capacity of PP creating a very swingy character class. Any thoughts on that ?
I might experiment building an alternate sorcerer using psionic powers as spells and using a power point system, as a sort of crossover class between the two. Considering I still want to use Verbal and Somatic components, do you foresee any issues with such a class or have any advice on building it ?
The Vancian system has it's own aesthetic strengths. I also consider Ars Magica system to have no contenders if you're looking to emulate the midieaval style of magic that includes both formulaic and spontaneous casting modes. If Pathfinder were to walk away from Vancian Magic, it's the Ars Magica model I'd rather they'd take up which has it's own strengths and avoids the superhero feel of psionics.The tricky bit for JJ is that what the existing psionics lovers largely love about psionics is the power point system.That's right, the first time I see Psionics I really don't like it too sci-fi, but when a read the power point system and how you augment the powers that's what made me adore Psionics and become in one of my favorite classes, for me the power point system is not only far superior than vancian system but the best system for classes of any kind
EDIT: casters for classes at the end
I never like it the times for day
I had never heard of Ars Magica but from what I read in Wikipedia sounds interesting, I liked how the players collaborate to create the story and become Story Guide. How does it work magic on Ars Magica?
I absolutely don't know what I am talking about (in pathfinder)... but based on Matthew's attitude alone I wouldn't allow Psionics in my game. I mean if this is the way psion supporters behave I would be reluctant to trust any of them... AND I used to BE a psionic supporter. So don't tell me point based casting isn't better than slot based. If you truly believed that you would be playing a wizard or sorcerer NOT a psion. The entire series of arguments FOR psionics is based on the LOVE of point based casting. As you have so inelegantly pointed out this isn't a huge difference. And I will concede the nova point because I don't have exact numbers and yes I know a caster can nova too.
Let me tell you a little history. Back when I wanted to play psionics (in 3.5) I started by approaching my "munchkin" GM. He at first refused because psionics "sucked" and couldn't keep up with the power level he expected in his games. So I eventually convinced him to let me try on a probational bases to PROVE psi could be powerful enough to keep up. I combed the internet for psi tricks to let me build as powerful a psion as I could. I found a trick that using fairly simple components I could gain near limitless psi points. I was then healing better than the cleric and nova-ing every encounter... the slot casters couldn't keep up. YES the min/maxed caster couldn't keep up with me. So long story short I made my lovable "munchkin" GM fall in love with psi. I also convinced the other GM at the same game table to forever ban psionics as over powered, as an unintended consequence. Now I don't know if the same tricks that made my psion such a heavy hitter are copied over into the 3rd party Pathfinder product. But I do know that slots and points don't belong at the same table together. If you love psi then great, just remove the slot casters and everything is golden. I DO think point based is better, that's why I tried to get it approved in the first place. I got tired of the vast amount of useless low level slots on my wizard I never actually used because they couldn't keep up any more.
Both the slots and points are fine... just not at the same table. You ttruly want both wizards and psions then fully convert the wizards to point based and everyone will be happy.
Since when is the monk a caster?
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So let me see if I have Aranna straight.
Aranna "Psionics are over powered."
Me: No they're not.
Aranna (argue from authority) Psionic players told me.
Me: Arguing from authority on psionics with me is amusing, cite your sources.
Me: Here's Math.
Aranna: Matthew's mean, and I'd never allow psionics at my table. Oh, and I have personally broken the psion with 'tricks' to give me unlimited power.
Me: Really, let's see those tricks.
Now I expect the reply to be "No, you're mean and I'm not telling you." Put up or shut up.
I don't own Ultimate Magic... I have briefly looked through a copy. I must have missed all these point based casters. I am curious about them now. I don't see them being used in online games... did they nerf them somehow?
So don't tell me point based casting isn't better than slot based. If you truly believed that you would be playing a wizard or sorcerer NOT a psion.
Just because we recognize something is more powerful does NOT mean we always want to play that.
I LOVE Sorcerers, I love spontaneous casting, and I don't care for the Vancian system. Doesn't stop me from recognizing Wizards are more powerful than Sorcs. Same goes with Psions.
but based on Matthew's attitude alone I wouldn't allow Psionics in my game. I mean if this is the way psion supporters behave I would be reluctant to trust any of them.
... demanding that people back up their statements with facts and actually look at the math he's brought to the table is a bad thing now?
Both the slots and points are fine... just not at the same table.
Why not?
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Just because we recognize something is more powerful does NOT mean we always want to play that.
I LOVE Sorcerers, I love spontaneous casting, and I don't care for the Vancian system. Doesn't stop me from recognizing Wizards are more powerful than Sorcs. Same goes with Psions.
Same here. I enjoy sorcerers because of the challenge of limited resources. (even more so when I want to take 'fun' spells like endure elements) I enjoy wizards because of the theme of 'unlocking reality' I enjoy psions because their power comes from 'inside'.
I would be happy to show you Matthew. But I need to find my old sheet first so have a bit of patience. Keep in mind this trick is 3.5e. I don't know if it would work in pathfinder at all.
AND the only one claiming any authority is YOU Matthew. I have YET to see you present any developer credentials, so I can only assume this is attitude not real authority.
AND stop LYING about what I have said. I made only three points the first was about Nova-ing which I have conceded already. The second was about Psi getting all the goodies available to other casters and no limits. I haven't seen the new products so I may have been wrong about pathfinder's psi having all effects. But since illusions in particular are common in psionics literature I suspect you will get your psi illusions soon enough. As for necromancy... ok which would you rather have healing or necromancy? Since most GMs ban necromancy as evil anyway this is hardly a convincing point. My last point was it feels unfair to use BOTH slots and points at the same table. This is my core argument. I fail to see anything that suggests the two should live in harmony yet. Although I may have to find these point based casters from Ultimate Magic TOZ is talking about to be sure.
My last point was it feels unfair to use BOTH slots and points at the same table. This is my core argument. I fail to see anything that suggests the two should live in harmony yet.
Again why not?
In case it takes a while to locate the trick was built around an item and an ability that reduced the cost to use powers.
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Ah, it must have been the OTHER Aranna who said "They CAN nova easier. Even psionic users have admitted as much." My mistake. It's that OTHER Aranna who was claiming that her posts had the authority of 'psionic users' backing her up.
And as to the 'claiming credentials' I said:
"As to the false "Arguing from Authority" go look at the Mind's Eye archive, look at the list of writers/playtesters. Go on, I'll wait."*
So unless you, oh sorry, the OTHER Aranna, wishes to produce the 'psionic uses' who have admitted to you, I mean her, that Psions can nova easier than sorcerers, and they work for Dreamscarred, worked on the Mind's Eye, or are named Bruce Cordell, I'm countering your, I mean her, arguing from authority with a laugh and my own 'credentials'
*
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AnnoyingOrange and Aranna, while I admire your tenacity, Matt and Dabbler have backed up their positions with rules and math. Whether you agree with the tone or not, you'll need to back up your side with rules and math if you wish to change anyone's opinion.
In their defense -- not that either need it -- Matt and Dabbler (and others) have done this dance repeatedly with other non-fans of psionics, and usually the non-psionics folks ignore the rules and math presented, and remained entrenched in their position. If anyone doesn't like psionics, that's perfectly fine, and no one is saying they have to like it or use it... whether it's the power points/non-Vancian system or the feel/flavor or whatever. But the math is the math.
And the "nova" issue is a non-issue. Any player who will nova with a psion will nova with a wizard or sorcerer (and be more effective at it). If the 15-minute workday is an issue for psions, it is just as much an issue for any full caster. Nova-ing casters/psions and the 15-minute workday aren't evidence of broken rules; they are evidence of unprepared or unassertive GMs.
In case it takes a while to locate the trick was built around an item and an ability that reduced the cost to use powers.
I would say then that the brokenness is based on the item doing something the system was not meant to handle, rather than any brokenness in the system itself.
Not sure what you mean by ability. A feat? A spell/power? A class ability? Something else?
iirc, there was a torq that reduced the costs of powers by 1, minimum of 1.
Damnit, just lost a post cause the website crashed for 10 minutes here :(
*sigh* Time to re-type it.
AnnoyingOrange, while I admire your tenacity, Matt and Dabbler have backed up their positions with rules and math. Whether you agree with the tone or not, you'll need to back up your side with rules and math if you wish to change anyone's opinion.
In their defense -- not that either need it -- Matt and Dabbler (and others) have done this dance repeatedly with other non-fans of psionics, and usually the non-psionics folks ignore the rules and math presented, and remained entrenched in their position. If anyone doesn't like psionics, that's perfectly fine, and no one is saying they have to like it or use it... whether it's the power points/non-Vancian system or the feel/flavor or whatever. But the math is the math.
And the "nova" issue is a non-issue. Any player who will nova with a psion will nova with a wizard or sorcerer (and be more effective at it). If the 15-minute workday is an issue for psions, it is just as much an issue for any full caster. Nova-ing casters/psions and the 15-minute workday aren't evidence of broken rules; they are evidence of unprepared or unassertive GMs.
Ambrosia, honestly I am a bit confused on what this 'math' is or what it is supposed to proof. Most of the issues I pointed out have very very little to do with math, the math he showed was hardly convincing on any point I was making. Which was not zomg overpowered psionics.
Neither do I seek to change anyone's opinion, I am discussing psionics here to gain insight, to which Matt did not contribute at all and rather made me feel to not want to discuss it at all.
I do not dislike psionics and do not hold up vancian magic as the ultimate magic system, but I have said that multiple times already.
Now I do not pretend to have extensive experience with psionics and have not used it much, but I am an experienced GM and player and have a fair sense of balance. If that discredits me from discussing anything remotely related to psionics then I will 'gladly' take my leave from this thread.
Now I enjoy the discussion with Dabbler and he has pointed out a few things that are helpful to at least understand his position, wether I agree with that is another thing entirely.
What the hell? During the middle of re-typing to post I lost, the Paizo webpage just flashes over to the home page, then flashes back to this thread with a blank message box?
This is just fantastic, now I get to type the damned message for a third time.
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notepad is your friend :P
Good gosh people... I already conceded the Nova point why are you still arguing about it? Is it easier? yes a psion can spend his points on a stream of ninth level maximum power abilities till he runs out of points? Are you arguing they can't I am confused? A sorcerer only has a couple ninth level powers then a few 8th level ones and so on... the sorcerer is always decreasing in power while the psion stays at max... yes this is what I call easier. Can a mage nova of course they can. Can a mage continue at much weaker power long after the psion ran out of points sure they can... you PROVED it already with your math. I conceded. WHY is this still an issue? Are you NOT satisfied with a win? If you want me to keep arguing this point till I win then you are going to have to help me cause I don't have the math to continue fighting the nova fight.
Sorry I missed the bit where you were a developer Matthew. I apologize for saying you have NO authority. Still you could be a little nicer about arguing against the other side. If you want to win converts then you gain more with honey rather than vinegar. For example you claimed repeatedly that I was attempting to argue from authority when I wasn't. I was arguing from popular opinion. I thought that was clear. Attacking me unfairly just angered me rather than elicit any reasoned response.