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What drew you to the rogue?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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To what end? If it's to charm people, I don't agree with how it's portrayed on here as it should still clue in the charmed person some weirdness is going on.

Any verbal component spell can't be used under stealth conditions without silent spell and you only get so many spells per day. Wands are an okay stop gap but don't get you much if you're trying to do what a high level rogue can do.

The first incursion with an a/m field suppresses all effects including any invisibility, magical disguises, etc. I'd expect any place worth being to steal something that would interest someone with sufficient magic to be able to do so with some sense of consistency and assurance would at least have a constant a/m field around ye ol' shiny.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And when your spells per day run out, you're right there at about the level the rogue can do things with.

And...it's really not a good idea to assume Antimagic Field. It can't be made permanent. Plus, if your argument relies on AMF...probably need a new argument :)

Or just Charm Person a rogue to go do it :D


Cheapy wrote:
Of course. But at the same time, give me the ability to cast spells over Convincing Lie any day.

Especially since Convincing Lie is about as useful as Prone Shooter.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Of course. But at the same time, give me the ability to cast spells over Convincing Lie any day.

Especially since Convincing Lie is about as useful as Prone Shooter.

Hey, I wasn't going to mention it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Let me put it this way.

Skills are a toolbox. You have your wrenches, your screw drivers, etc.

Rogue talents make little modifications to these tools. Maybe your hammer can do something a screw driver normally does. Maybe it's got an extra bell or whistle. Maybe both at the same time! These talents are a nice little addition to the skills.

Magic is a whole other set of tools. It's an electric hammer. It's something that just places that screw in its hole. It can do everything your main toolbox can do, but it can do it faster and better. But you can only use these super-tools, because that's what they are, a few times per day.

But the good news? The supertools do not have to replace your regular tools. They can supplement them. It's not an either-or thing UNLESS you are a rogue, in which case you do not have these supertools in your toolbox. You only have the mundane ones, possibly with some nice bells and whistles granted. The rogue's toolbox is necessarily smaller than the magic user's.


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I expect I've missed the point by miles (I normally do), but we can match or (very probably) exceed what a rogue does by cleverly building up a character in another class - that really isn't the point.

If we're to have a rogue class at all, it's because people want to play *rogues* A ranger who sneaks and scouts is still a ranger. A wizard who can sneak and steal better than a rogue is still a wizard. Getting rid of the whole class concept is a pretty good idea, but it's lasted for a reason that's not necessarily connected with who can outdo whoever else in situation x, y or z.


Well, do to most of the issues stated here I believe a very unpopular prestige class is the best rogue atm. I play an arcane trickster in a kingmaker AP and I am the skill monkey as well as viable control in bigger battles.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

In 1E & 2E D&D I was a huge fan of Rogues.
The flavor, I think, is what drew me in. Echoes of the Stainless Steel Rat, Garret P.I., Han Solo, etc.

The problem is that the mechanics of the Rogue in PF don’t really hold up to the flavor.

Wall of Text Explanation:

Spoiler:

1st Issue: PF is a team-oriented game. There is little room for “solo adventures”. The Rogue, unfortunately is both flavored and mechanically incentivized to attempt to be a solo PC.

Let’s look at what they are (thematically, at least, if not mechanically) good at:
Trap Finding – what’s the first thing that happens when a Rogue spots the trap? That’s right, everyone backs off so that they aren’t in the AoE or fall into the trap or set it off on accident.
Sneaking – what’s the one thing that’s guaranteed to ruin your stealth? … that’s right, loud party members … how do you deal with being the only one who can sneak? … separate from the party. The fact that the stealth rules don’t actually work as written also doesn’t help.
Sneak Attack – generally requires flankers … ‘nuff said?

2nd Issue: MAD madness
Because Rogues are “Jacks of All Trades” – they tend to suffer from lower attributes than any other class. Most other classes are driven from one or two attributes, but Rogues are one of the most penalized (barring probably Monks). Dex for sneaking, Cha for being the “face” or using any of the persuasive Tricks, STR to actually be able to hit & damage when melee occurs, WIS to be able to actually USE the Trap Finding (as it’s driven off of Perception), Int for skill points & driving

3rd Issue: Gear Reliance
Rogues need stuff to be effective. More so than almost any other class (with now the possible exception of alchemists who have to have some sort of “prop gear” to utilize their CLA’s.
Most of their gear reliance is on expendables which are costly to replace (poison costs especially) and while Rogues can theoretically get creation abilities, this would cut into their already slim margin for “non-essential” feats.

4th Issue: Everything a Rogue can do, someone else can do better (aka “oh, look, Ninjas!”)
Barring their 20th Level Capstone ability, the Rogues have no unique abilities.
Ninjas are almost universally considered better Rogues as they have almost every ability a Rogue has and also have their own meta system for exceeding mundane restrictions.
Most of the flavor mechanics of the Rogue can better be found in other classes, sometimes dramatically so (Gunslinger’s ‘Evasive’, I’m glaring at you). Rogues are one of the few classes who don’t get “hide in plain sight”, making Rogues sub-par at attempting to “Re-Stealth”.
Vivisectionists can also sneak attack and can get abilities to assist them in delivery the sneak attack.

Fixes
A “Rogue Chi” system is another alternate thought.
I’ve given a lot of thought to giving Rogues an ability similar to that of the Cavalier & Inquisitor where they can effectively share sneaking or trap bypassing Feats or abilities, but haven’t yet worked out the mechanics of how that would work without stepping all over either the Cavalier or Inquisitor.
In a similar vein, I’ve pondered giving them a “Feat Pool” that they can switch Feats in and out of in a manner similar to how Inquisitors can shift Team Feats.
It’s hard to fix a lot of the Rogue issues without nerfing other classes, as most of the issues with the Rogue class is the complete lack of any unique ability that isn’t done better by another class. Power creep for Rogues is also not optimal as anything that adds to existing Rogue abilities also adds to the abilities of every other class that gets their abilities.

I’m currently playtesting addition additional level abilities that scale in a manner similar to that of an Oracle’s Battle’s Revelations (Maneuver Mastery, War Sight & Weapon Mastery) as well as minor alchemist & magus abilities for the magic-inclined Rogues. There is also higher level (14 & 17) abilities to specify a square that they are not threatened by as well as an extended “reach” square that they threaten.

TL;DR – Rogues can’t perform what they are advertised to be able to do any better than other classes, and in many cases not even as well as other classes can. The complete lack of unique flavor and mechanics combines with their confusing role defination to severly hinder their ability to be played as many players envision.

-TimD


Cheapy, I suspect that's why rogues come with UMD as a class skill. With that, there's nothing you can't do. Granted, you need to keep buying scrolls and wands whereas a caster needs to simply sleep. However, the rogue can easily grift his way to riches as well as he gets those skills also.

Taking a step back, I enjoy the rogue *because* of his blandness. He can be what the situation requires. A wizard is always a wizard. If he can't use spells then he's a weakling with weak attacks. Sure, he can be almost just as acrobatic and stealthy as the rogue but the rogue has more HP, higher BAB and skills to let him do things with his acrobatics and stealth the wizard can't.

Rangers are only great on their favored terrain facing their favored enemy. The rogue's ability is a constant.

If magic is in play, the rogue can be just as deadly with a handy haversack and UMD as any other caster. A couple scrolls of wish is all you really need. Expensive, sure, but the emulation ability is what you're going for here on top of being able to warp reality just as well as a wizard.

The versatility of the class is its mainstay. It's the whole point. It's the "whateva, whateva, I do whatever I want" class.

In their ideal environment any class will naturally shine the brightest. There's always that ideal race, ideal stat, ideal gear, ideal feats, spells, traits, etc combination that makes them godly. The rogue, however, can do well in all environments with pretty much the same skills.

That is actually a pretty valuable skill set.


Buri wrote:
However, the rogue can easily grift his way to riches as well as he gets those skills also.

And now we understand. Rogues are good when your GM lets you "buy" items at a 100% discount


Yes, because I said that. </sarcasm>


Buri wrote:

Rangers are only great on their favored terrain facing their favored enemy. The rogue's ability is a constant.

This is actually not true of the ranger, especially if you bring in magic items and spells into the discussion. Rangers have a spell that allows them to change anyone to their highest favored enemy. They also have a spell that allows them to change any terrain to their highest favored terrain.

So anywhere vs anything your ranger is going to outclass the rogue, especially with magic in the discussion.


After what? 2 rounds? That's enough time for a rogue to take someone down or at least subdue them.


Buri wrote:
After what? 2 rounds? That's enough time for a rogue to take someone down or at least subdue them.

How about zero. Instant enemy is a swift action.

Even without it you are talking about a class that has full Bab and can ignore prerequisites on feats. Let's also toss in an animal companion for extra damage.


On a select few feats. They can't ignore prereqs on all feats. The animal companion might have scent. That's about it.

Also, you can only have one swift action per round so it'd still take 2 rounds before you got all your bonuses.


Buri wrote:

On a select few feats. They can't ignore prereqs on all feats. The animal companion might have scent. That's about it.

Also, you can only have one swift action per round so it'd still take 2 rounds before you got all your bonuses.

Just one round, swift action instant enemy, and wand the terrain bond. Boom, instantly better than the rogue at everything.

Edit: Actually scratch that, Terrain Bond lasts 1 hour per 2 ranger levels so by the time the ranger can cast it, it is basically an all day buff. So in the first round after a swift action the ranger will be better against anyone in any terrain compared to the rogue.


At everything? Really? That's a rather reaching statement. It might be better combat wise, as that's what favored enemy is about, but hardly everything. The rogue has options to even the playing field a bit through combat maneuvers, same as anyone except the rogue does get a few specific buffs to them, that will bog their opponent down. With hide in plain sight available a rogue doesn't have to engage in head to head combat regardless of enemy or place and can choose when to engage. The class is still a very worthy opponent.


Rogues get Hide In Plain Sight? Since when?!


Advanced Rogue Talent (ie: level 10 minimum) in one terrain type selected from ranger favored terrain list (UC p71). Selectable multiple times.

- Gauss


In fact, I may take that now when my level 8 gets there. He has a +26 mod and has the invisibility ninja trick. Rolling a potential 86 to stealth without the stealthy feat or skill focus (stealth), which is practically a given at level 10, not to mention those extra 2 ranks from 8 to 10 for a new potential of 96 while being viewed? That's too good to pass up.

I'm actually thankful for this thread, as I'm sure my GM is even though he may not realize it. I was considering taking witch or some other caster class from level 9 to 20 for some controller-type spells but this thread has made me re-examine the rogue's talents and potential and I'm probably going to stick with rogue to 20.

I'm playing my first rogue character and normally play casters. I had the same perceptions as others that the rogue is somehow bland or mediocre and it's actually a pretty nifty class once you start digging around. So what if others can take aspects of the class and do it better. I'd feel confident taking my character to a variety of situations and he can do so in a moments notice. No waiting a day to change prepared spells is actually nice.


Buri wrote:
The rogue has options to even the playing field a bit through combat maneuvers, same as anyone except the rogue does get a few specific buffs to them, that will bog their opponent down.

How? What makes the rogue special here?

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've been running my rogue all day here at Space City Con and I don't see it either.


Ultimate Combat wrote:
Weapon Snatcher (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent.
Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
Combat Swipe: A rogue who selects this talent gains Improved Steal as a bonus feat.

To those who say it just grants a feat, that's true. However, you don't have to spend a feat to get it.

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
Fast Fingers (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent can roll two dice while making a Sleight of Hand check and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the Sleight of Hand check. A rogue can use this ability one additional time per day for every 5 rogue levels she possesses.

When used with Weapon Snatcher it applies to that combat maneuver.


Just the other night, as a long built up boss fight was occurring with an evil Wizard NPC, the rangers wolf companion managed to trip the wizard knocking him prone, acting right after the wolf was the dual wielding 12th level halfling rogue who then proceeded to land all 5 hits (he was hasted), doing a total of 185 points of damage (145 after stoneskin), killing him like a biotch.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's about as useful as Ravingdork's story about his wizard soloing an army.


Gambit wrote:
Just the other night, as a long built up boss fight was occurring with an evil Wizard NPC, the rangers wolf companion managed to trip the wizard knocking him prone,

What kind of high level Wizard was fighting on the ground?

Gambit wrote:
acting right after the wolf was the dual wielding 12th level halfling rogue who then proceeded to land all 5 hits (he was hasted),

AND he was standing 5' from a melee character, allowing him to get a full attack?

Gambit wrote:
doing a total of 185 points of damage (145 after stoneskin), killing him like a biotch.

Good. A wizard so stupid is an insult to his Intelligence score, and deserved nothing but an embarrassing death.


I was drawn in by the Knife Master archetype. Currently playing in Curse of the Crimson Throne. It seems I might be the new Black Jack after our last session, or at least I will get pretend I am for a little while.


Gignere,Are you still up for this?

Gignere wrote:
Nebelwerfer41 wrote:

Also, not to be confrontational, but the wizard is still limited by the number of spells per day, the need to rest a full 8 hours to regain those slots and they don't have any of the talents.

I would like to see someone create a wizard that can do everything the base thief class can do. I've tried it before and always came up wanting.

First build your rogue. I can't build a wizard to match a shroedinger rogue. Do it first and I'll try and match it with a mix of skills and spells.

My base Rogue is a half-elf. 20 point buy.

Rogue Level 1:

S 14(+2), D 16(+3), Co 12(+1), I 14(+2), W 11(+0), Ch 12(+1)
Languages: Common, Elven, Varisian

BAB 0 CMB +2 CMD 15 /// F +1 R +4 (+2 more v traps) W +0 (+2 racial v. enchantment)
Initiative +3 Speed 30' AC 17,12,13 (normal, flat-foot, touch)
HP 8

Attacks and Weapons:
Melee: (+1d6 Sneak Attack)
Light mace, +2, 1d6+2, 20, x2
Dagger, +2, 1d4+2, 19-20, x2

Ranged: (Point blank shot +1 to hit and damage inside 30')
Shortbow +3, 1d6, x3, 60' (20 arrows)
Dagger, +30, 1d4+2, 19-20, X2, 10'

Traits:
City Born (Magnimar) {RotRL players guide} +1 reflex, +2 diplomacy

Canter: Anyone who attempts to use Bluff to deliver a secret message to you gains a +5 bonus on his Bluff check. When you attempt to intercept a secret message using Sense Motive, you gain a +5 trait bonus on the attempt.

Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot

Skills: (11 per level)
Acrobatics 9= 1 +3 D +3 class- 0 Armor +2 racial skill focus
Diplomacy 5= 1 +1 ch +3 class +2 CityBorn
Disable Device 7+= 1 +3 D +3 Class - 0 Armor (+ 1/2 level v. traps)
Perception 6+ = 1+0 w +3 class +2 race (+ 1/2 level v. traps)
Sense Motive 4+= 1 +0 w +3 Class (+5 on secret messages, Canter trait)
Stealth........ 7= 1 +3 D +3 Class - 0 Armor
Use Magic Device 5= 1 +1 Ch +3 Class

Appraise 4= 0 +1 I +3 class
*Bluff 4+= 1 +1 ch +3 class (+5 on secret messages, Canter trait)
Climb 6= 1 +2 S +3 Class - 0 Armor
*Know (Local) 6= 1 +2 I +3 Class
*Sleight of Hand 7= 1 +3 D +3 Class - 0 Armor
Swim 5= 0 +2 S +3 Class - 0 armor

Class Features:
1st Level: Sneak attack +1d6 ; trapfinding (add 1/2 level to perception & disable device against traps)

**********************************

Rogue Level 4:

S 14(+2), D 17(+3), Co 12(+1), I 14(+2), W 11(+0), Ch 12(+1)
Languages: Common, Elven, Varisian

BAB 3 CMB +5 CMD 18 /// F +1 R +7 (+2 more v traps) W +1 (+2 racial v. enchantment)
Initiative +3 Speed 30' AC 17,12,13 (normal, flat-foot, touch)
HP 8

Attacks and Weapons:
Melee: (+2d6 Sneak Attack)
Light mace, +3, 1d6+2, 20, x2
Dagger, +2, 1d4+2, 19-20, x2

Ranged: (Point blank shot +1 to hit and damage inside 30')
Shortbow +3, 1d6, x3, 60' (20 arrows)
Dagger, +30, 1d4+2, 19-20, X2, 10'

Traits:
City Born (Magnimar) {RotRL players guide} +1 reflex, +2 diplomacy

Canter: Anyone who attempts to use Bluff to deliver a secret message to you gains a +5 bonus on his Bluff check. When you attempt to intercept a secret message using Sense Motive, you gain a +5 trait bonus on the attempt.

Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot
3. Weapon Focus light mace

Skills: (11 per level)
Acrobatics 12= 4 +3 D +3 class- 0 Armor +2 racial skill focus
Diplomacy 8= 4 +1 ch +3 class +2 CityBorn
Disable Device 10+= 4 +3 D +3 Class - 0 Armor (+ 1/2 level v. traps)
Perception 9+ = 4+0 w +3 class +2 race (+ 1/2 level v. traps)
Sense Motive 7+= 4 +0 w +3 Class (+5 on secret messages, Canter trait)
Stealth........ 10= 4 +3 D +3 Class - 0 Armor
Use Magic Device 8= 4 +1 Ch +3 Class

Appraise 6= 2 +1 I +3 class
*Bluff 7+= 3 +1 ch +3 class (+5 on secret messages, Canter trait)
Climb 8= 3 +2 S +3 Class - 0 Armor
Disguise 5= 1 +1 ch +3 Class
*Know (Local) 5= 2 +2 I +3 Class
Ride......... 4 = 1 + 3 dex
*Sleight of Hand 8= 2 +3 D +3 Class - 0 Armor
Swim 7= 2 +2 S +3 Class - 0 armor

Class Features:
1st Level: Sneak attack +1d6 ; trapfinding (add 1/2 level to perception & disable device against traps)

2nd Level: Evasion (reflex for 0 damage), rogue talent - Fast Stealth

4th Level: Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
4th Level: Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.

***************

Rogue Level 8:

BAB +6/+1 CMB +7 CMD +11 F (4= +2 +1Co +1 cloak) R (11=+6+3D+1 CityBorn +1 cloak)(+2 v. traps from trap sense) W (3=+2+0W +1 cloak) (+2 racial v. enchantment) Speed 30'
Initiative +3 AC normal, flat-foot, touch : 17, 14, 15 (+2 leather shadow armour, +4 dex, +1 dodge)(+2 v. traps from trap sense)
HP [total(current)] [58 ( 58)]

S 14(+2), D 18(+4), Co 12(+1), I 14(+2), W 11(+0), Ch 12(+1)

Languages: Common, Elven, Varisian

Attacks and Weapons:
Melee: (+4d6 Sneak Attack)
+1 Light mace, +10/+5, 1d6+3, 20, x2
(+1 Returning Dagger) +9/+4, 1d4+3, 19-20, x2
Dagger, +8/+3, 1d4+2, 19-20, X2

Ranged: Point blank shot +1 to hit and damage inside 30';
+1 Composite Shortbow (+2 Str), +11/+6, 1d6+2, x3, 60' (20 arrows)
(+1 Returning Dagger) +11, 1d4+3, 19-20, x2
Dagger, +10, 1d4+2, 19-20, X2, 10'

Skills(88 total) (8/level + 2/level Int + 1/level favored class)

Acrobatics 16+= 8 +3 D +3 class- 0 Armor +2 racial skill focus (+5 ring on high or long jumps)
Appraise 7= 3 +1 I +3 class
Bluff 7+= 3 +1 ch +3 class (+5 on secret messages, Canter trait)
Climb 13= 8 +2 S +3 Class - 0 Armor
Diplomacy 12= 6 +1 ch +3 class +2 CityBorn
Disable Device 14= 8 +3 D +3 Class - 0 Armor
Disguise 18= 4 +1 ch +3 Class +10 hat
Know (Local) 11= 6 +2 I +3 Class
Perception 13+ = 8+0 w +3 class +2 race (+ 1/2 level v. traps)
Ride ............6 = 3 + 3 dex
Sense Motive 8+= 5 +0 w +3 Class (+5 on secret messages, Canter trait)
Sleight of Hand 14= 8 +3 D +3 Class - 0 Armor
Stealth 19= 8 +3 D +3 Class - 0 Armor +5 armor special
Swim 9= 4 +2 S +3 Class - 0 armor
Use Magic Device 11= 7 +1 Ch +3 Class

Untrained:
Acrobatics 0 +2 D - Armor -- skilled
Appraise 0 +1 I -- skilled
Bluff 0 +1 ch -- skilled
Climb -- skilled S -- skilled
Craft 0 +1 I
Diplomacy 0 +1 ch -- skilled
Disguise 0 +1 ch -- skilled
Escape Artist 0 +3 D - 0 Armor
Forgery 0 +1 I
Heal 0 +0 w
Intimidate 0 +1 Ch
Perception 0 +0 w -- skilled
Ride 0 +3 D
Sense Motive 0+0 w -- skilled
Spellcraft 0 +1 I
Stealth skilled D - 0 Armor -- skilled
Survival 0 +0 W - 0 Armor
Swim -- skilled S -- skilled

Feats
Race: Skill Focus (Acrobatic)
1st Level: Point Blank Shot
3rd: Weapon Focus Light Mace
5th Level: Dodge
7th Level: Combat Expertise , -2 to hit +2 dodge bonus to AC

Rogue
1st Level: Sneak attack +4d6 (7th level); trapfinding (add 1/2 level to perception & disable device against traps)
2nd Level: Evasion (reflex for 0 damage), rogue talent - Fast Stealth

4th Level: Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
4th Level: Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.

6th/3rd Level: Trap Sense +2 -- +2 dodge bonus to AC or reflex save v. traps
6th Level: Talent -- Resiliency (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the rogue's level. Activating this ability is an immediate action that can only be performed when she is brought to below 0 hit points. This ability can be used to prevent her from dying. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. If the rogue's hit points drop below 0 due to the loss of these temporary hit points, she falls unconscious and is dying as normal.

8th Level Improved Uncanny Dodge, Combat trick --Improved Feint (Feint: You can use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. For more information on feinting in combat, see Combat.)

Racial Special low-light vision (2x humans);+2 on perception, immune to sleep effects, skill focus, common & elven, favored classes (2) rogue and fighter, +2 saves v. enchantment

Traits City Born (Magnimar) {RotRL players guide} +1 reflex, +2 diplomacy

Canter: You grew up among thieves and scoundrels,
and their unusual speech patterns and turns of phrase
don’t phase you in the slightest today as a result. Anyone
who attempts to use Bluff to deliver a secret message
to you gains a +5 bonus on his Bluff check. When you
attempt to intercept a secret message using Sense Motive,
you gain a +5 trait bonus on the attempt.

Equipment:

Special Expensive Gear:
+1 Leather Shadow Armour (+3 AC -0 armor check, +5 bonus on Stealth), (3750+150+10 = 3910)
+1 returning dagger, (8302?)
+1 light mace (2305)
+1 Composite Shortbow (+2 Str), Arrows (# in combat section) (2480)

Hat of Disguise : This apparently normal hat allows its wearer to alter her appearance as with a disguise self (+10 on check) spell. As part of the disguise, the hat can be changed to appear as a comb, ribbon, headband, cap, coif, hood, helmet, and so on. (1800gp)

Ring of Jumping This ring continually allows the wearer to leap about, providing a +5 competence bonus on all his Acrobatics checks made to make high or long jumps. (2500 gp)

Ring of Featherfalling (2200gp)

Cloak of Resistance +1. (Gift of Marak) (all saves) (1000gp)

Wand of CLW (750

Bead of Force (3000)

Handy Haversack (2000)

Kallie's wand of shocking grasp (26 charges) ~375 gp

***
Beltpouch: 2 potion CLW, vial of silversheen, Flint and Steel, Whistle, Ioun torch. 25 sp .

Handy Haversack: MW Thieves Tools, 50' Silk Rope, Grapplng Hook, Oil (2 pints), Callie's Wand

Tanglefoot bag x2, thunderstone x2, smokestick x2, antitoxin x4,alchemist's fire x2, acid x2
****
Horse, riding saddle, bit and bridle
Saddlebags:


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Gambit wrote:
Just the other night, as a long built up boss fight was occurring with an evil Wizard NPC, the rangers wolf companion managed to trip the wizard knocking him prone,

What kind of high level Wizard was fighting on the ground?

Gambit wrote:
acting right after the wolf was the dual wielding 12th level halfling rogue who then proceeded to land all 5 hits (he was hasted),

AND he was standing 5' from a melee character, allowing him to get a full attack?

Gambit wrote:
doing a total of 185 points of damage (145 after stoneskin), killing him like a biotch.
Good. A wizard so stupid is an insult to his Intelligence score, and deserved nothing but an embarrassing death.

He was surprised, it was an ambush plan, in his command tent, and going along with the party was his former apprentice from long ago (now also a high level wizard), who spent his every action to counterspell his former master. The DM was doing the rolls out in the open, the apprentice beat the master every single round, it was comical, he never got a single spell off, including that teleport he tried to cast twice.

The encounter could have went horribly, the guy has a demon lord with him, who was banished on the 2nd round of combat, the cleric rolled a 19 on her caster level check vs SR, and he rolled a 3 on his will save. And a drow high priestess, who was a tough, but couldn't stand up to the barrage. The encounter literally had the best possible outcome for the party, and this guy was a recurring villain, not just from this campaign, but from a previous one about 8 years ago too, it was time for him to die.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
That's about as useful as Ravingdork's story about his wizard soloing an army.

What are you implying exactly?

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That proper setup allows any character to excel.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
That proper setup allows any character to excel.

And that enough blind luck is better than good character building.

Andoran

As I've said before, I'm not the best at anything. But I excel in flexibility. If the party has no ranged attack, I can do that. If we need melee, I can do that. If we need social skills, I can do that. If we need to defeat traps, I can do that. If we need to scout out ahead, I can do that. Being an elf, I have access to the Breadth of Experience feat. That feat allows a character to use any Knowledge or Profession skill untrained, with +2 bonus. (I know, I know. That is about the same as Bardic Knowledge, at the expense of a feat.)

I can be anywhere on the battlefield that I want to be. I can act as a damage multiplier for the fighter by ensuring that he flanks - he gets a bonus to hit and I get bonuses to hit and sneak attack damage.

Most classes are specialists. I am a generalist.

I have prevented TPK on at least two occasions.

But my first PFS character was a rogue because there weren't any in our group. It seemed as if it might be fun to play.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
gnomersy wrote:
And that enough blind luck is better than good character building.

I make my own luck. :P


Theconiel wrote:
Most classes are specialists. I am a generalist.

See, you say that, but nothing you wrote has anything to do with being a Rogue. As an elf, you would be just as good an archer if you were any other 3/4 BaB class. The melee and scouting abilities of the Rogue in comparison to others have already been discussed extensively in this thread, and don't need reiterating. Any other elf could take Breadth of Knowledge. Any character, animal companion, or even some familiars can give the Fighter a flank and benefit from it themselves, but are not as beholden to it as the Rogue. Being a generalist on a team of specialists can at times be useful, but you haven't pointed out anything that makes the Rogue particularly well suited to that role.

Andoran

Mort:
Trap disabling: Only the rogue can disable magical traps, as far as I know.
Archery: If I were playing another 3/4 BAB class, it would have taken longer to get Precise Shot - I was able to take Point-Blank shot as a rogue talent.
Damage Multiplier: Another class could, indeed, help with flanking. But the others would not have Sneak Attack.
Social Skills: The rogue can take Guileful Polyglot as a rogue takent - 4 bonus languages with 1 skill point in Linguistics.

My main argument is against people who say that rogues are worthless. My experience playing a rogue is that the rogue can contribute to almost any party.

I realize that bards have almost as many skills per level as rogues, plus magic. The bard is a really powerful class. But even the bard has difficulty matching the rogue in flexibility.

At least that's my opinion, and I'm stuck with it.


Theconiel wrote:

Mort:

Trap disabling: Only the rogue can disable magical traps, as far as I know.

sadly No.

Andoran

Nicos wrote:
Theconiel wrote:

Mort:

Trap disabling: Only the rogue can disable magical traps, as far as I know.
sadly No.

You are mostly correct:

d20pfsrd wrote:
The spells fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle also create traps that a rogue can disarm with a successful Disable Device check. Spike growth and spike stones, however, create magic traps against which Disable Device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details.

Andoran

Anyway, I have had fun playing the rogue and I always have a useful role to play.


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Theconiel wrote:
Trap disabling: Only the rogue can disable magical traps, as far as I know.

It has actually been passed around quite freely. Archaeologist Bards, Urban Rangers, Crypt Breaker Alchemists... pretty much all the classes used as Rogue replacements have an archetype to get the ability to disable magical traps. And everyone gets to find them these days.

Theconiel wrote:
My main argument is against people who say that rogues are worthless. My experience playing a rogue is that the rogue can contribute to almost any party.

I think "worthless" is being used in different ways. The Rogue isn't "worthless" in that it can't do anything, ever. It is that, quite often, another class can be used to create a "Rogue" type character that is more versatile and mechanically effective than a similar concept built from the "Rogue" class. It isn't that one is a necessarily a generalist and the other is necessarily a specialist, it is that Rogue has sort of been left behind by Pathfinder. Rules changes and archetypes have taken what made them unique, resulting in a sort of "anything you can do, I can do better" situation.

Theconiel wrote:
I realize that bards have almost as many skills per level as rogues, plus magic. The bard is a really powerful class. But even the bard has difficulty matching the rogue in flexibility.

I seriously ask, how? What specific, mechanical abilities is the Rogue offering that make them more flexible than an Archaeologist Bard? The examples you gave were a fine example of a generalist, jack-of-all-trades, "Rogue" type character, but didn't seem particularly tied to the "Rogue" class abilities.

Theconiel wrote:
At least that's my opinion, and I'm stuck with it.

But if you are a reasonable enough person to understand that people tend to stick to their opinions, you are likely also reasonable enough to modify your own in the face of logical argument and example. Totally just encourages me to try harder to convert you to the dark... er... "Rogues need more love" side.

EDIT:

Quote:
Anyway, I have had fun playing the rogue and I always have a useful role to play.

Hey, nobody is telling you not to have fun. But then, people can have fun playing plenty of things that aren't mechanically that great. People aren't looking to pillory those that play Rogues and have fun, they are asking that the Rogue class get the toys so that, for those that care about mechanical balance, there are ways to make them uniquely interesting and useful.

Andoran

You make many excellent points, Mort. It does seem to me that Paizo has made the rogue less relevant (irrelevant?) by giving other classes abilities that used to be unique to rogues.

Really, sneak attack is about the only thing that is still available only to the rogue class.

I always liked your "handle" by the way.

EDIT
Now, I think I'll go find something useful to do. Maybe I'll sweep the kitchen floor or something.


Theconiel wrote:

You make many excellent points, Mort. It does seem to me that Paizo has made the rogue less relevant (irrelevant?) by giving other classes abilities that used to be unique to rogues.

Really, sneak attack is about the only thing that is still available only to the rogue class.

I always liked your "handle" by the way.

EDIT
Now, I think I'll go find something useful to do. Maybe I'll sweep the kitchen floor or something.

Eh sneak attack isn't Rogue only either I know it's on an Alchemist archetype it's also on the ninja(which is an altered Rogue but doesn't share the fluff and has a plethora of other things which make Rogues jealous) and I think it's on some other stuff including some prestige classes.


therealthom wrote:

Gignere,Are you still up for this?

My base Rogue is a half-elf. 20 point buy.

** spoiler omitted **...

First off that is a pretty damn good skill monkey rogue build. This is my proposed build to replace the rogue. Doesn't do everything that your rogue can pull off but I believe it will do most of everything it can and for me given that it has full spell casting more than makes up for in slight lack of skills.

Also I don't know how to make my build as pretty as yours so I'll just build it at level 8.

Human Sorcerer Seeker/Sage Archetype

Str 7
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 21 (+4 headband) = 25
Wis 12
Chr 12

Traits: Slippery, Eyes and Ears of the City, Suspicious, World Traveler (Diplomacy)

Feats: Additional Traits, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning, Still Spell, Craft Wondrous Items

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 + 2 = 5
Appraise 1 + 3 + 7 = 11
Bluff 6 + 3 + 1 = 10
Diplomacy 4 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 9
Disable Device 7 + 3 + 2 + 4 = 16
Fly * 8 + 3 + 2 = 13
Kn: Arcana 5 + 3 + 7 + 2 = 17
Kn: Local 1 + 3 + 7 = 11
Kn: Nature* 8 + 3 + 7 = 18
Kn: Planes 6 + 3 + 7 = 16
Perception 7 + 3 + 1 + 1 + (4 traps) = 12 (16 traps)
Profession (Ventriloquist) 1 + 3 + 1 = 5
Sense Motive 4 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 9
Spellcraft 6 + 3 + 7 + 2 = 18
Stealth 7 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 13
Use Magic Device 6 + 3 + 1 = 10

*Skills from headband

Spells:
Lvl 0: Acid Splash, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation

Lvl 1: Charm Person, Ear Piercing Scream, Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Silent Image, Vanish

Lvl 2: Blur, Glitterdust, False Life, Fog Cloud, Scorching Ray

Lvl 3: Fly, Haste, Summon Monster 3

Lvl 4: Dimensional Door

Also at around level 12 my sorcerer will have more skills than your rogue. Although I have nothing to duplicate your trap spotter and fast stealth talents, I think having unlimited detect magic, being able to fly all day (eventually) and having stealth at will (Blur) should count for something.

Edit: The ventriloquist profession is so I can cast spell while stealth (invis) and throw my voice.

Osirion

Gignere wrote:


The ventriloquist profession is so I can cast spell while stealth (invis) and throw my voice.

Haha. Oh, I love this! Thanks for that

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I've got an idea for a tweak for the rogue. It would give them a little boost, a lot of versatility, and also introduce a little resource management to the rogue.

At level 1, the rogue gains Luck Augmentation. Each day after resting 8 hours, she selects her choice of one of the following abilities:

+1 luck bonus to Armor Class
+1 luck bonus to Attack Rolls
+1 luck bonus to Caster Level checks
+1 luck bonus to Damage Rolls
+2 luck bonus to Initiative
+1 luck bonus to Saving Throws
+1 luck bonus to Skill Checks
+5 feet of Speed

The rogue gains the benefit of this ability for 24 hours or until she spends an immediate action to forego the bonus to re-roll a d20 roll.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the rogue gains additional uses of this ability; if the rogue selects the same ability more than once, the bonuses stack.

I also think something like the War Domain's 8th level ability might be a good rogue talent (or possibly advanced rogue talent).


Gignere wrote:
sorcerer build.

Thanks for the reply. I've got to get some sleep tonight, but your sorcerer looks pretty wicked. I'll check it out in depth tomorrow night.


I always wanted to make Rogues Dex/Int based character. Maybe a little Cha too.

How about this:

First, give the rogue 2 extra skill points, so he's really a cut above the rest on skill-monkeyness. More on this later.

2nd, expand trap finding to give him the Trapspotter feat. Maybe with the distance in which he gets the free roll by 5ft for each +1 of Trapfinding bonus. Also, allow him to use his Disable Device bonus instead of his Perception bonus in skill checks made to find traps. This way a low Wis doesn't hurt him as much and actually allows rogues to excel at this.

Finally, add the following class features:

Rogue Resiliency. At 1st level, the rogue must select either her Fortitude Save or her Will save. The chosen save follows the good save progression. (So you can make a strong-willed witty rogue or a resilent thugish one. Low wisdom won't hurt as much. Another idea is allowing the rogue to make a Reflex roll instead of a Fort/Will roll a few times a day.)

Streetsmart: At 2nd level a Rogue chooses 2 skills. She adds a bonus equal to half her rogue levels on all rolls of said skill. At 6th level and every 6 levels thereafter, she adds the bonus to an additional skills. The selected skill must be in list of class skills of the rogue class, and can not be a "usable only if trained" skill, such as Spellcraft and Use Magic Device. (This ways rogues become the real kings of skill monkeyness without giving them UMD cheese)

Canny Strike: At 5th level, a rogue adds her Intelligence modifier to damage rolls. This extra damage is precision damage. (So no more real need for Str. Less MADness, but not too much, since it adds to Str instead of substituing it, a low Str score can hurt. Thugish rogues have an advantage here and archetypes could trade this ability for cool stuff.)

Hide in Plain Sight: At 10th level the rogue gets the Hide in Plain Sight ability. (Stealth should be an obvious role for Rogues. Although the Rogue Talent might be enough already in this aspect.)

I'm aware this doesn't solve everything and doesn't give unique abilites. But it's a start. I love the Luck rerolls idea and would like to see that expanded.


goal: having fun thinking out of the box the mundane way.
achieved: partly, I would really like better mundane weapons (even if they don't stack with magic proprieties)
However even if everyone can try using his environment instead of a simple attack routine, the rogue gets more love from GMs, it's like kobolds, they are treated like kittens with no claws.


I strongly suspect TarkXT has his own ideas about how to fix the rogue. This thread seems to be more about what about the rogue needs or doesn't need fixing.

I think the rogue absolutely should not be better at skills.

There are maybe four front line tanking classes. My list would be Barbarian, Cavalier, Fighter, and Paladin. If your tank concept doesn't fit one you can use another. There are at least ten other classes with hybrid elements that can be front liners.

There are nearly as many options for archers.

There are three full arcanists and three hybrid arcanists.

There are three full divine casters, a hybrid divine caster, and a full arcanist with several key divine spells available.

If the rogue is buffed at skills there will be one skill class. No role should have one true class that fills it. Absent using spells known on skill boosters the rogue is as good at a bard with the same int at mid-levels. Neither class is int based. There should be more choices for the role, but at least there is more than one. Some Alchemist builds might push int high enough to compensate for lower base skills, though probably not at low levels.

What I think the rogue needs is to have his non-skill abilities raised to be on a par with the bard or alchemist. Fixing the rogue's weaknesses will make a better rogue than accentuating the strengths. The latter risks making a class that people feel obligated to take for its strengths while resenting the weaknesses at combat. Kind of like healbot clerics have been must haves that nobody wants to play in some groups, especially in editions before spontaneous cures.


therealthom wrote:
Gignere wrote:
sorcerer build.
Thanks for the reply. I've got to get some sleep tonight, but your sorcerer looks pretty wicked. I'll check it out in depth tomorrow night.

Actually I rechecked the build and realize I am missing 3 spells, because I forgot my bloodline spells.

So I redid the spells
Spells:

Lvl 0: Acid Splash, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation

Lvl 1: Charm Person, Ear Piercing Scream, Enlarge Person, Identify, Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Silent Image

Lvl 2: Blur, Glitterdust, False Life, Fog Cloud, Invisibility, Scorching Ray

Lvl 3: Dispel Magic, Fly, Haste, Summon Monster 3

Lvl 4: Acid Pit

Next Level the sorcerer can choose to take Twilight Knife, than he can sneak attack.

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