Hey, Cosmo favorited my post. I therefore declare myself the winner of this thread, you all can go home now and play with your St. Andrew Crosses :)
Must make will save, to fight the urge to goggle what the heck a St. Andrew Cross is....... Rolls 1.
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...(I had my 12 yo Niece at the table, I really don't want her asking her mom what a St. Andrew's Cross is)...Doesn't have a problem running a game where people cut each other's guts out, melt faces using acid, set blood on fire, summon demons and devils for a 12 yr old.
Has an issue with a reference to a BDSM accessory in a scenario.
BONUS POINTS: Is an American conservative.
Thanks for making my point :-)
Okay, first of all: Gorbacz, speaking as an American Liberal, I really think you need to get off your high horse and quit with the stereotyping. It's kind of ugly.
Secondly, I want to respond to your concerns, although I admit that my feelings on the subject are complicated:
RPGs like Pathfinder are games of make-believe. They are fantasies in more ways than one: not just in terms of orcs and elves but in terms of power fantasies, revenge fantasies, and just general daydreaming. An RPG character can engage in all kinds of of behavior that we in the real world consider anti-social at best and horrifying at worst. Now RPGs can be about heroism (the most common theme), and love, and responsibility, but they take place in a milieu where violence is an acceptable solution for many problems and you can justify the destruction of a thinking being because of his alignment stat, and where looting and rapacious conquest is often an end unto itself.
This is not proper, social, real-world behavior. It's drama. It's super-stylized, abstracted, sanitized entertainment that is capable of appealing to both our higher ideals (heroism, camaraderie) and our baser instincts (kill the monster, might makes right). It's a release for our aggression as well as a place to exercise our sense of self-importance and our egotism in a socially acceptable, healthy format that hopefully doesn't hurt anyone in the process. It is hung with the trappings of fiction: magic, plot-armor, monsters, archaic customs, mythology.
Now, what kind of sexual content is supposed to happen in that kind of milieu? Dramatic sex, of course - there's very little point in role-playing out a healthy, normal sex life. Why? Because a healthy, normal sex life belongs in the real world. You will note that almost no one wants to role-play a clerk who has a steady 9-5 job that provides enough to support him and his family. That's something to strive for in the real world.
So what does "dramatic sex" look like? Well, it actually looks a little like movie sex. That can be anything from an R-Rated romp to Hardcore, softcore, bdsm, whatever. The point is, it's titillation. It's supposed to be - that's the point! Chainmail bikinis, anyone? Shirtless barbarians and bodice-ripping? Succubi?
So when people get sensitive about sex in RPGs, that doesn't mean that they are necessarily prudes. It probably just means that they like to keep sex (however they like it) as a part of their "real world" life and separate from the fantasy world where they incinerate orcs with sorcery. They don't want to think of sex as something anti-social that requires an artificial milieu to make acceptable. Maybe the fellow quoted above wants his Niece to discover her sexuality on her own and feels weird about implying that BDSM is something that belongs in a bizarre fantasy realm of dubious morality. Maybe he would rather avoid including sexual themes because he does not want to reinforce the stereotype that RPGs are for sexually immature people who can only get gratification through fantasy. Maybe he feels it's inappropriate to focus on elements that are there for titillation purposes when playing with his young niece. There's nothing prudish about that and it certainly doesn't impinge on anyone else's fun.
Cutting people's guts out, melting faces using acid, setting people's blood on fire, and summoning devils and demons are things that (god willing) do not happen in the real world, and to the extent that similar violence does happen it is horrifying and traumatic.
A St. Andrews' Cross DOES happen in the real world, and it is tied up (ha-ha) with a whole bunch of sometimes complicated ideas about human relationships and sexuality. It's a role-playing prop in and of itself. It can be a very intimate item.
I've probably spilled too much ink on this already.
TL/DR: Some people just don't like mixing their power fantasies with their sexual fantasies. That doesn't make them immature/prudish.
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Perhaps you misunderstood my problem. My problem is not "somebody out there doesn't like mixing X in his RPG". I honestly couldn't care less about what happens at somebody's table apart from mine.
My problem is "people out there don't like mixing X in their RPG and want X purged from printed material, because it makes them feel uneasy".
What's even worse is that among the American populace, which is the primary target demographic, there's a general trend of giving thumbs up to violence but going ballistic the moment sexual tones are mentioned (cref: Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction" vs. pro wrestling). Hence, my high horse. No, I'm not getting off. My reputation here is notorious enough, thank you.
So when somebody goes "there shouldn't be any X content books, because ...", I don't even listen to their reasoning, and ask instead: "why do you want to shove censorship down my throat just because topic X doesn't float your boat?". It's not like Lisa Stevens is going to force you to buy it a gunpoint, isn't it?
Nothing says maturity like arguing over whose behavior is more or less so.
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I have read this whole thread and the one thing I am sure of: "Mature Content" clearly means something different to some of you then it does to me.
Mature content can make a role playing game very interesting for the Role Players. But for me, mature content does not just mean sex nor does it only mean explicit sex. There are a lot of subjects other then “sex” that I would call mature content. I mean there are a lot of subjects I would not want my 10 year old discussing in their game that I would not mind seeing handled in a mature group's game.
As for Gorbacz's one point, I agree. I would not want to see the game sanitized to my 10 year old's level. I believe the way Paizo handles it now is good. They present the situation and allow each table to take it where they are comfortable going.
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So, umm....
How's about City of Sin seeing the light of day? That would be cool...
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Hey, Cosmo favorited my post. I therefore declare myself the winner of this thread, you all can go home now and play with your St. Andrew Crosses :)Must make will save, to fight the urge to goggle what the heck a St. Andrew Cross is....... Rolls 1.
You didn't already know what one was? tsk tsk...
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One of the failings of the English language is calling explicit content 'mature'. I think it has warped our idea of what maturity actually is.
We went the other way and porn magazines are called casually "Świerszczyki" in Polish. Now people are giving me funny look when I lament the loss of my "Świerszczyk" collection that I gathered between 1984 and 1989. I left them at grandfathers home and they got lost after his death and sale of the home.
You didn't already know what one was? tsk tsk...Hey, Cosmo favorited my post. I therefore declare myself the winner of this thread, you all can go home now and play with your St. Andrew Crosses :)Must make will save, to fight the urge to goggle what the heck a St. Andrew Cross is....... Rolls 1.
I had to check as well. I saw that device in movies and pictures many times but didn't know that it is named so.
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My problem is "people out there don't like mixing X in their RPG and want X purged from printed material, because it makes them feel uneasy".
Gorbacz, I don't think there's anyone on these boards (or indeed, anyone in the hobby) who is making that argument.
What's even worse is that among the American populace, which is the primary target demographic, there's a general trend of giving thumbs up to violence but going ballistic the moment sexual tones are mentioned (cref: Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction" vs. pro wrestling).
What you're doing is taking a very small subset of vocal Americans who happen to be nervous nellies and generalizing it to the entirety of the population. That's like saying that Mary Whitehouse spoke for all of Britain during the 80's. It's ridiculous and a bit offensive.
Or, you know, saying that Lech Kaczyński speaks for all Poles when it comes to issues like homosexuality.
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My problem is "people out there don't like mixing X in their RPG and want X purged from printed material, because it makes them feel uneasy".Gorbacz, I don't think there's anyone on these boards (or indeed, anyone in the hobby) who is making that argument.
What's even worse is that among the American populace, which is the primary target demographic, there's a general trend of giving thumbs up to violence but going ballistic the moment sexual tones are mentioned (cref: Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction" vs. pro wrestling).What you're doing is taking a very small subset of vocal Americans who happen to be nervous nellies and generalizing it to the entirety of the population. That's like saying that Mary Whitehouse spoke for all of Britain during the 80's. It's ridiculous and a bit offensive.
I don't care how big this group, all I care for is that they are powerful enough to have equalized RPGs with satanism in public eyes back in the 80s (resulting in, among others, demons and devils and assassins suddenly disappearing from the game) and today is able to barrage Paizo with complaints re: Hook Mountain Massacre and incite nationwide panic over an exposed nipple on the television.
The fact that they are a small minority only speaks badly of the majority who is unable to contain them. But that's a typical problem of liberals, who are usually unable to handle anybody who doesn't play the game using their rules, such as refusing to partake in dialogue and resorting to intimidation. :)
Kajehase: we didn't hire the Russian ninjas to put that bomb on his plane for no reason.
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My problem is "people out there don't like mixing X in their RPG and want X purged from printed material, because it makes them feel uneasy".Gorbacz, I don't think there's anyone on these boards (or indeed, anyone in the hobby) who is making that argument.
Re-read page 1 of this thread.
What's even worse is that among the American populace, which is the primary target demographic, there's a general trend of giving thumbs up to violence but going ballistic the moment sexual tones are mentioned (cref: Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction" vs. pro wrestling).What you're doing is taking a very small subset of vocal Americans who happen to be nervous nellies and generalizing it to the entirety of the population. That's like saying that Mary Whitehouse spoke for all of Britain during the 80's. It's ridiculous and a bit offensive.
He's not speaking for the entirety of the population, but the popular status quo of the media, I'm guessing.
Spoilered media rant:
A more recent example; Prince Harry gets caught being naked in Las Vegas, in his private room, among his personal entourage, and the tabloids are going completely ballistic. You'd think the sky was falling.
Meanwhile, Rihanna pines and laments, wanting to get back with the guy(Chris Brown) that pulverized her face and *everybody's all "Awwww, good for her!"
A nipple slip(Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction") incites viewers into a foaming rage, but domestic abuse gets excused as long as you're young and hot. Heck, he even won Grammy awards afterward, which is hilarious given that they've withheld and stripped awards from other performers in the past for drastically less severe reasons.
"*Everybody" implying social media and tabloids. Sorry, my cable is out and all we get is ABC with an antenna, and half the shows are celerity worshiping tabloids.
And circling it back on topic, books about demon worship, bloody mutilation, necromancy, slavery, and wanton slaughter of innocent people are encouraged reading material. But if you dare show a boob or two, you better hide that on the top shelf in the back of the store with a warning label...
Let me be clear about this; I am NOT advocating incorporating explicit themes into ANY game where ANYONE in the group is not mature enough to handle it; age-wise, emotionally, etc.
What I am saying, however, is that for a group of mature adults playing this game, what constitutes as "explicit" or "mature" could seriously be up for revision.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Gorbaz
Yes, curse those pesky Americans with their ideas of free expression and free markets. If only they had a Man of Iron to lay down the law. *rolls eyes*
Again, Paizo can publish whatever they want. People can critique whatever they want. If a company caters to a small enough audience (and doesn't have a big powerful union) it goes away. That's life.
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@Gorbaz
Yes, curse those pesky Americans with their ideas of free expression and free markets. If only they had a Man of Iron to lay down the law. *rolls eyes*
Again, Paizo can publish whatever they want. People can critique whatever they want. If a company caters to a small enough audience (and doesn't have a big powerful union) it goes away. That's life.
Am I not doing something that is an appeal to True American Ideals (the real Washington Era deal, not some warped travesty of nowadays) - freedom and liberty? Let Paizo print nipples without forcing customer service to endure the rage of some religious psychos from a Coalition of Christian Parents or whatever absurdity that is interested in intimating publishers into conforming with some religion's ideas of public morality.
This thread gave a dry tinder to my world-builder flint.
Idea for a culture:
Gerontocracy that sets age of legal maturity at the point where one's sexual libido dropped beyond a certain threshold (or maybe ceased at all).
Gorbacz will not stop until the profound shortage of sexualized fantasy imagery is finally addressed! Because, you know, it's impossible to find images of half-naked elf chicks, amirite?
Exactly the issue! They're only half naked!
I kid, I kid.
Gorbacz will not stop until the profound shortage of sexualized fantasy imagery is finally addressed! Because, you know, it's impossible to find images of half-naked elf chicks, amirite?Exactly the issue! They're only half naked!
I kid, I kid.
Actually most of them are half-elf chicks possing as full-blooded elves. They can be recognized by breasts too large for true eleven females (like the one on the Lineage image posted somewhere near the begining of this thread).
D2?
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I'm more immature than you!Are not!
You bugger, you beat me to it. Besides, both of you bastards are way too polite :)
Hey, Cosmo favorited my post. I therefore declare myself the winner of this thread, you all can go home now and play with your St. Andrew Crosses :)Must make will save, to fight the urge to goggle what the heck a St. Andrew Cross is....... Rolls 1.
Aw hell, I didn't even roll. And that Wikipedia picture was kinda hot, too :)
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Nothin' better than a bunch of men sitting around a table describing in detail how their PC got the Clap....."Hey DM, my dude totally chats up the barmaid." DM: "So, what do you say to her?"......it starts getting real uncomfortable after this around the table IMO.
Cut-scenes for me thanks, I don't need a supplement for "How to take a Fantasy Dump in a dungeon" either....just gloss over that some...
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Funny thing is I actually am not interested in a book like that either, however I am not opposed to a publisher making books that I am not interested in for people who are interested in that material. Which seems to be a problem for some people, who seem to feel that if they don't want it, it should not be published.
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I'm an American Paleoconservative. I like sex in my games... but then, I am also an Odinist... and we tend to view things like that as natural.
That said, I am not interested in reading a gaming book, that is written by some average joe, on the subject. I already know everything I want to about sex.... reading a game designer's take on it does not sound like a fun thing to do.
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Paizo definitely pushed the envelope when it comes to sexual situations. There are some really horrific things (some sexual) in Rise of the Runelords, and I just read a part of Shards of Sin that has some pretty damn disturbing sexual stuff going on. (Not that I object!)
I mostly keep sex off-camera in my campaign, but I do use it when I feel it's appropriate.
However, I have personally checked in with all of my players to find out if there are any topics that are psychological triggers-- I won't include a rape scene in my game if I know that a player is a survivor of a sexual assault. I won't include children in peril if I know I have a player who's a survivor of child abuse.
I learned this the hard way a long time ago: I ran a game where the PCs had been captured by slavers, and the slavers sexually assaulted a friendly NPC fellow slave in the presence of the PCs. One of my players totally freaked out-- I hadn't realized that she was a rape survivor, and the in-game situation was sufficiently like her own experience that it triggered an anxiety attack. In retrospect, I should not have thrown a rape scene at my players so casually (even if no PCs were victims-- that was something I knew not to do, even then!)
So, I guess my $0.02 is to be sure to check in with your players out-of-game (preferably before the campaign gets off the ground), to see what kind of sexual content would be acceptable and what isn't.
What's even worse is that among the American populace, which is the primary target demographic, there's a general trend of giving thumbs up to violence but going ballistic the moment sexual tones are mentioned (cref: Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction" vs. pro wrestling). Hence, my high horse. No, I'm not getting off. My reputation here is notorious enough, thank you.
well, that one was immature/hypocritical from the moral guardians; Janet was held responsible for the whole thing, but Justin came out clean... I looked carefully, Justin was more surprised at the reaction of the crowd than Janet's boob, he pretty much did that on purpose; but he is a white guy, Janet is a female and isn't white...
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Paizo definitely pushed the envelope when it comes to sexual situations. There are some really horrific things (some sexual) in Rise of the Runelords, and I just read a part of Shards of Sin that has some pretty damn disturbing sexual stuff going on. (Not that I object!)
Shards of Sin? Hmm maybe I missed it but I don't recall reading anything like that. The only things i remember is the pretty heavily hinted at torture and experimentation going on.
Paizo definitely pushed the envelope when it comes to sexual situations. There are some really horrific things (some sexual) in Rise of the Runelords, and I just read a part of Shards of Sin that has some pretty damn disturbing sexual stuff going on. (Not that I object!)Shards of Sin? Hmm maybe I missed it but I don't recall reading anything like that. The only things i remember is the pretty heavily hinted at torture and experimentation going on.
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** spoiler omitted **Paizo definitely pushed the envelope when it comes to sexual situations. There are some really horrific things (some sexual) in Rise of the Runelords, and I just read a part of Shards of Sin that has some pretty damn disturbing sexual stuff going on. (Not that I object!)Shards of Sin? Hmm maybe I missed it but I don't recall reading anything like that. The only things i remember is the pretty heavily hinted at torture and experimentation going on.
Ok I can see where you got that,
** spoiler omitted **Paizo definitely pushed the envelope when it comes to sexual situations. There are some really horrific things (some sexual) in Rise of the Runelords, and I just read a part of Shards of Sin that has some pretty damn disturbing sexual stuff going on. (Not that I object!)Shards of Sin? Hmm maybe I missed it but I don't recall reading anything like that. The only things i remember is the pretty heavily hinted at torture and experimentation going on.Ok I can see where you got that,
** spoiler omitted **
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** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **Paizo definitely pushed the envelope when it comes to sexual situations. There are some really horrific things (some sexual) in Rise of the Runelords, and I just read a part of Shards of Sin that has some pretty damn disturbing sexual stuff going on. (Not that I object!)Shards of Sin? Hmm maybe I missed it but I don't recall reading anything like that. The only things i remember is the pretty heavily hinted at torture and experimentation going on.Ok I can see where you got that,
** spoiler omitted **