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Before I say all this I accept that Paizo does not make their products for me personally. I love the AP's, they are some of the finest adventures I have ever played and I am glad that they are trying new things. Please take my criticism as an attempt to seek clarification and motivation rather than as a purely negative wave of criticism.
That said, I have to say so far this whole AP is not my cup of tea. I'm debating whether to run it or let Mrs Camelot do it for me.
My issue is that it appears to be just a very long set of PFS modules. There's no X-Factor to this that jumps out at me. Why should I care? In the other AP's one of the strengths is that the stakes are really high, in most of them if you fail thousands will die, horrors will rise and the world will burn. That's why I love them so much, my character matters.
But what's the motivation here? So far I'm seeing only greed and "because the Decemvirate tells you to do it." That's hardly epic. James Jacobs has said that the motivation should be to get a cool artifact. Well, I find that totally underwhelming. I'm not saving the world, I'm digging up the Magic Football of Bob. Why? Cos my boss told me to do it, that's why. For me stuff doesn't get me interested in a plot, what I can use that stuff to achieve does.
From what I can see this is an attempt to go a bit old school. Plot as an excuse to explore dungeons if you like. That doesn't float my boat. I prefer plot to be central not an excuse.
My other issue rises from the fact that membership of the Pathfinder society is not optional. I find the society to be one of my least liked aspects of Golarion. Other games have done the world wide society of adventurers schtick before. In fact it's been done a lot, to the point that it's become something of a cliche frankly.
I dislike being part of a big faction and I really dislike being forced to be a member of a big faction. I want to win glory for myself, not because it's my job. I want to set my own motivation I don't want that to be set for me. Being a Pathfinder restricts your options, narrows your goals and removes choice. In addition I am already playing this campaign as is anyone else who plays PFS. In effect (with the exception of a few modules) for 6 months Paizo will not publish a plot that doesn't require PC's to play Pathfinders. This does not fill me with excitement.
My final issue is that this takes place yet again in Varisia. Now I have liked all the AP's set in Varisia but it is now totally overdone. It just feels like we are rehashing the same ground over and over. Please Paizo explore the rest of the world from now on!
TL;DR I can't seem to get excited about this. Am I alone?
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I see your point, but my group had the opposite reaction. They are intrigued at the idea of playing a Indiana Jones style adventurer of collecting powerful relics and making sure they end up locked away in a safe place where they can't hurt anyone. Plus the whole searching and plundering a collection of dungeons.
But to be fair almost every time we play someone wants their PC to be a member or join the Pathfinders. I think the very things you see as problems (and I understand your view) is a big part of what my group is finding appealing about this one. The fact it is not a epic save the world/area from a big bad, or start a new kingdom/become powerful pirate lords. Like many of the AP's have, just a change of pace.
Me personally I like there to be a variety in the AP's. Even if it means sometimes a AP comes out that just doesn't appeal to me, because I know next AP or the next one after that is more likely to really appeal to me.
While I get what you are saying, I actually consider this a strength of the AP line that they change a lot on the reason behind them.
This was my first thought too.
After all, there's a LOT of dungeon crawls out there. Most of us buy APs to have a ready-made epic story and an adventure worthy of the name.
This does seem a bit underwhelming - NPC tells PCs to go down dungeons looking for the Magic Football. All it's missing is a bar scene to kick things off. So far, so 4E.
But - I think after Skull & Shackles (which I personally disliked) it's a good time to have a more 'traditional D&D' AP that gets back to basics. There's a been a fair few linear APs of late (even though I loved Jade Regent).
Also, let's give Paizo their due - there's room even on a dungeon-bash to have interesting encounters and meaningful NPCs. I don't think they will disappoint.
Finally, James has stated that the PFS is only a maguffin really, and you can make Shiela H in charge of anything you want, from a thieves guild to a temple. He says you can take the PFS out entirely if you wish.
That said, I'm glad the Society actually has a role to play in an AP for once.
There are plenty of APs not quite right for my group. Nonetheless, I'm very glad they make an effort to vary the themes and styles. Often it's the products I think I'm going to have no interest in which I like best. Even if the format/story of a specific AP doesn't motivate me to actually use the material, the differing perspective is generally an interesting read.
Creative Director
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My only request is that folks wait and see. This is NOT the "All Pathfinder All the Time" adventure path. It's much more of an old-fashioned artifact hunt through a bunch of cool dungeons that are iconic sites in Varisia.
I'm pretty sure I've not used the word "Decemvirate" once in the entire AP so far, in fact. If I have, it's not used in any significant way that I'd remember... and I'm over halfway through developing the entire Adventure Path so far.
Greed IS a big motivator for this one... but that's mostly because that's the primary baseline motivator for a lot of adventurers.
We've done plenty of adventures where you have to go on them to save the world or save a city or do whatever altruistic good-guy tasks and we'll do more of them in the future. But now and then, we do need to mix things up!
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I too dislike the Pathfinder society. I'd love to see a sidebar on how not to use it.
I'm glad Paizo is doing a dungeon-bash though; We haven't really seen one of those from them.
Ken
I am pretty sure I can write the sidebar right here, based on comments from the staff.
Rename Sheila Heidmarch to something else, portray her as an independent patron employing people to get the Sihedron elements. Ignore the fame/ prestige bit at the end of the adventure.
As for epic saving the world stuff, it wouldn't shock me if there's a group/ groups of NPCs trying to collect the Sihedron for nefarious purposes, which could lead to some interesting dilemmas.
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@Wolfthulu: Underwhelmed by the Pathfinder Society requirement, that it's set in Varisia, that it's a hunt for a magic football etc. etc. Basically everything I said in my first post.
I have run 4 AP's to completion and played one through too. I have started 4 more as a GM and another one as a player so I know when I am underwhelmed by an AP. I had reservations about Carrion Crown and Jade Regent too but by the same stage in development for those two that we are at now for Shattered Star my opinion had come round. In this case I still have concerns. Hence this thread.
Reading book 1 isn't an option if I am going to play. I have to make a decision to run or play before that, based on the evidence I have now. That's one of the other reasons I made this thread.
@James: Always nice when you pop up in a thread James. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
If I didn't think you listened to feedback I wouldn't have posted this. That it's not an "all Pathfinder all the time" AP is encouraging but I still have reservations. I find dungeon crawling less fun than investigation and talky encounters so the seemingly heavy dungeon element of this AP is an area of concern to me.
That said, you (and Wolfthulu) are correct to say that I may be jumping the gun a little and judging on limited evidence. That's a fair summation. My point is that I am at the stage of deciding whether to run or play. Seeing as how I have reservations it's probably better to hand this one over to Mrs Camelot and enjoy the ride. I came up with a nefarious plan tonight for a character so I think that's the best plan.
One point to all on this thread. I am all for variety in my AP's. I would rather Paizo be ambitious and fail than be safe and average. However, one of Paizo's great strengths is that they listen to feedback and criticism. I feel that as this is the case I would be remiss as a loyal customer to not voice my misgivings. In indicating that there are elements to this AP that I dislike I encourage discussion and if my concerns are shared by a significant portion of the community then by having that discussion in a sensible and adult way we allow Paizo to evaluate their product and build a better mousetrap (so to speak.)
My intention with this was twofold. To express my concerns and to see if those concerns could be eased. I am somewhat satisfied with James' response and therefore will take his advice to wait and see. I hope James takes on board my concerns when evaluating the early launch of Shattered Star. He is of course free to reject my comments but it is in threads such as these that Paizo can get an indication of the success or otherwise of their products and the level of customer satisfaction with them.
Please don't take my comments as a wholly negative statement because that's not my intention. I'm not saying Shattered Star will be a failure, in fact I hope it's a rip roaring success and that it does very well. Paizo have never done a terrible AP and I doubt they are doing one now. Wait and see is the watchword...
It doesn't float your boat, but it floats mine, as well as many others'. They have to keep switching things up, and continue creating a wide variety of APs. Otherwise the line gets stale and they start to repeat themselves.
Someone can (and has) easily make a thread like this for Skull & Shackles (I don't like pirates), Jade Regent (I don't like oriental themes), Kingmaker (too sandboxy), Second Darkness (I don't like drow), etc...
Every AP is going to appeal to some and not to others. Paizo can only hope to appeal to as many people as possible while continuing to try new things and push boundaries, and then try to win over the others through sheer quality of work.
They've been doing an amazing job so far, as far as I'm concerned.
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Director of Game Development
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So, I’m not quite five months in here, so for some of this I’m still talking like a fan that’s been reading these APs (if not playing/running them) since Rise of the Runelords, and not an employee (but also an employee), so consider that.
People have been asking for a megadungeon.
People have been asking for a more old-school Adventure Path.
This is partially a response to those requests, but it’s also a chance for us to go back and spill some spoilers for the foundation of parts of the Inner Sea. This is also an anniversary year, and Shattered Star reflects that. This Adventure Path will rekindle some great memories and answer some left-unsaid questions from folks who played through our first few Adventure Paths, AND it will get PCs into places that have been on the map since day one that no one’s explored quite yet. But, it also provides some great story for folks who haven’t. After all, we’ve got a pretty good track record of telling cool stories.
As far as the Pathfinder Society inclusion goes, it makes sense to the campaign, but it is something that is easily replaced (as was mentioned upthread and on other threads). You can reflavor that at your table with little adaptation and still have a good time. It’s much less strict than PCs being pirates or journeying across the top of the world. And while an artifact hunt may seem like a trite fantasy trope to some folks, we’ve heard the same thing about “save the world from a crazy threat” campaigns as well.
I do hope you stick around to see what we have planned.
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As for epic saving the world stuff, it wouldn't shock me if there's a group/ groups of NPCs trying to collect the Sihedron for nefarious purposes, which could lead to some interesting dilemmas.
That would probably be the Aspis consortium ... :-)
As far as the concept goes, I'm actually more excited by this adventure path than by any of the others I've looked at (including Rise of the Runelords). I'm a little jealous of my players, who will (if all goes as planned) move onto this after RotRL (which we're just about to start). Not everything needs to be a "save the world" plot - you can get just as much tension out of a "save the cheerleader" storyline, with the added benefit that it's easier to empathise with the protagonists. Heroes, maybe, but not Superheroes.
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Between the city books for Magnimaar, Kaer Maga, and Korvosa and whatever spillover plot points one might have from RotRL, CotCT, and SD, and the deeply developed native cultures present, there's likely a lot of stuff you can do with this AP using it as a framework.
Planning on playing up the legacy of Thassilon and how it weighs on the various people and cultures of Varisia(the Varisians, Shoanti, Wayfinder #7's skindancers, and the various giant tribes n particular). A number of different groups are going to have a vested interest in the Sihedron Star and what each of them believes it could mean, both for them and Varisia.
It's not going to be treated primarily as a treasure hunt, but as a search(and possibly a desperate one at points) for the lost history of the people of Varisia and what it means for them in the present and the future.
And from what I’ve read so far, it’s not some boring mook-fight-from-room-to-room-until-the-boss dungeon crawls—seriously, there’s some cool plots and twists
Thanks Adam - that's what I'd hoped!
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@Fall:
I can appreciate your reservations, especially since you're deciding now whether to play it based only on the brief preliminary information available now.
A lot of us don't play through APs nearly as fast as you seem to, so we've got way more lead time to decide whether to play or run something.
If you're worried about ShS at this point, could you maybe play something else until you have more information to make a fuller judgment? Maybe some of the recent modules?
People have been asking for a megadungeon....
...This is partially a response to those requests...
I'm a big fan of megadungeons and (fwiw) I don't consider this to be scratching that itch at all. I hope the possibility hasn't been crossed off the list and marked "done!" In my view there's a lot more to a megadungeon than just "being in a dungeon lots".
I can appreciate it might not be as popular as other options, might be of no interest to the developers or might not be economically feasible. I wouldn't be disappointed if it never happened on those grounds. It would bother me (a bit) if it never happened on the grounds that lots of little dungeons adds up to a megadungeon.
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Creative Director
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Am I right in thinking these adventures are along the lines of most of the Shackled City adventures (Lifes bazaar, flood season, soul pillars especially). Those are what I think of when I think dungeon crawl adventure.
Yes... but also things like Brinewall Castle, Runeforge, and the Vaults of Madness. We've been doing dungeon crawl adventures all along! Shattered Star just has a lot more of them...
So, a bunch of Indiana Jones style dungeons, looking for relics. Sounds cool.
So does the final dungeon have a UFO like at the end of Kingdom of the crystal skull? ;)
What are you talking about? I'm pretty sure they found the crystal skulls and made their way out of there and back to civilisation without further complications... ;)
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What are you talking about? I'm pretty sure they found the crystal skulls and made their way out of there and back to civilisation without further complications... ;)So, a bunch of Indiana Jones style dungeons, looking for relics. Sounds cool.
So does the final dungeon have a UFO like at the end of Kingdom of the crystal skull? ;)
Wait, I thought they only made three movies.
I remember seeing something that claimed to be a fourth movie but I chalked it up to bad herbs in the hookah.
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What are you talking about? I'm pretty sure they found the crystal skulls and made their way out of there and back to civilisation without further complications... ;)So, a bunch of Indiana Jones style dungeons, looking for relics. Sounds cool.
So does the final dungeon have a UFO like at the end of Kingdom of the crystal skull? ;)
Wait, I thought they only made three movies.
I remember seeing something that claimed to be a fourth movie but I chalked it up to bad herbs in the hookah.
There was only three, though there was a video journal about India after he got bad mushrooms on a salad once and had a really really bad trip.
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"Bad dates."
What are you talking about? I'm pretty sure they found the crystal skulls and made their way out of there and back to civilisation without further complications... ;)So, a bunch of Indiana Jones style dungeons, looking for relics. Sounds cool.
So does the final dungeon have a UFO like at the end of Kingdom of the crystal skull? ;)
Wait, I thought they only made three movies.
I remember seeing something that claimed to be a fourth movie but I chalked it up to bad herbs in the hookah.
I actually preferred the 4th movie over the 3rd.
Final dungeon with a UFO? Final dungeon with Jeep and a lot of Gasoline would be more far out.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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You can count me and my group as among those who are excited by this AP. For one thing, it's a reference to a story line we truly enjoyed and set in a part of the world that is incredibly rich. For another, it's a return to a more traditional line of adventures, which has been sorely lacking, recently.
I only have one reservation: Skulls and Shackles was beyond terrible. The writing was bad, the railroad nature of the hook was the worst I've ever seen, and I had a hard time finding any set piece in that AP that was at all interesting enough to pluck out and use somewhere else. Even the maps and a lot of the art pieces were substandard. If that kind of production value continues with this AP, I will be a very sad subscriber.
I have high hopes that this will be a return to the stellar quality I am used to from Paizo.
Rod of seven parts 3 box was a pretty cool lil product once upon a time.
But it wasnt due to the artifact, thats a tiny detail of it all.
More akin to the unique events, places etc. Like roast dragon steak.. hahah!
What are you talking about? I'm pretty sure they found the crystal skulls and made their way out of there and back to civilisation without further complications... ;)So, a bunch of Indiana Jones style dungeons, looking for relics. Sounds cool.
So does the final dungeon have a UFO like at the end of Kingdom of the crystal skull? ;)
Wait, I thought they only made three movies.
I remember seeing something that claimed to be a fourth movie but I chalked it up to bad herbs in the hookah.
I actually preferred the 4th movie over the 3rd.
Final dungeon with a UFO? Final dungeon with Jeep and a lot of Gasoline would be more far out.
New magic item: Refrigerator of Nuclear Shielding
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You can count me and my group as among those who are excited by this AP. For one thing, it's a reference to a story line we truly enjoyed and set in a part of the world that is incredibly rich. For another, it's a return to a more traditional line of adventures, which has been sorely lacking, recently.
I only have one reservation: Skulls and Shackles was beyond terrible. The writing was bad, the railroad nature of the hook was the worst I've ever seen, and I had a hard time finding any set piece in that AP that was at all interesting enough to pluck out and use somewhere else. Even the maps and a lot of the art pieces were substandard. If that kind of production value continues with this AP, I will be a very sad subscriber.
I have high hopes that this will be a return to the stellar quality I am used to from Paizo.
Lolwhut?
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Eh, I can sort of see what he's getting at. It's not that bad, but Skull and Shackles is rough around the edges. It needs a lot more prepwork than even Serpent's Skull and there are groups that are just going to be repelled by the hook.Lolwhut?You can count me and my group as among those who are excited by this AP. For one thing, it's a reference to a story line we truly enjoyed and set in a part of the world that is incredibly rich. For another, it's a return to a more traditional line of adventures, which has been sorely lacking, recently.
I only have one reservation: Skulls and Shackles was beyond terrible. The writing was bad, the railroad nature of the hook was the worst I've ever seen, and I had a hard time finding any set piece in that AP that was at all interesting enough to pluck out and use somewhere else. Even the maps and a lot of the art pieces were substandard. If that kind of production value continues with this AP, I will be a very sad subscriber.
I have high hopes that this will be a return to the stellar quality I am used to from Paizo.
Yeah, sorry for the derailment. I didn't realize I was looking so hard for an excuse to complain about that AP. I should have checked that desire and just said I'm looking forward to Shattered Star.
To explain (in brief): I took exception to the "press gang" approach to the opener. It was worse than the Council of Thieves beginning, by a long shot, but no one was complaining half as much about S&S they complained about CoT. I also took exception to what thejeff said - throughout the entire AP, the GM simply points and says, "Now do this," removing any player decisions. Next, much of the art just rubbed me wrong, and a lot of the maps were just poorly done. Finally, I felt many of the set pieces just seemed...stuffed into place, is the best I can say it.
Like I said, though, sorry about saying my beef with S&S was my "reservation" with Shattered Star. I'm just (marginally) worried that this next AP will be as "loose" as the last (the word "loose" being used to define what I feel was the approach to the development of the AP). I will let my complaints be, as of now, and hopefully return this thread to its regularly scheduled discussion of Shattered Star...
[Edit] I misquoted someone...fixed, now.
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Creative Director
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We knew going in that Skull & Shackles' opening and plot would not be a good fit for every group. Which is why...
1) We didn't do it as a "launch" adventure path, but instead waited until we had a lot of other adventure paths out there for folks to choose from or play if this one wasn't to their liking, and...
2) Why we're doing a MUCH more classical and old-school adventure path right after Skull & Shackles. Knowing full well that there's going to be groups that are tired of old-school dungeoncrawling artifact scavenger hunts, which is why the adventure path after THIS one is going to be something else entirely as well.
ALL of which is why we prefer doing 2 adventure paths a year instead of 1 big one. At 2 a year, you don't have to wait as long for the next one to start if one isn't to your liking.
Of course, I do hope that folks still wait until the adventures are actually out and actually check them out or read reviews before making snap judgements about whether or not they like the adventure path...
@Wolfthulu: Underwhelmed by the Pathfinder Society requirement, that it's set in Varisia, that it's a hunt for a magic football etc. etc. Basically everything I said in my first post.
I have run 4 AP's to completion and played one through too. I have started 4 more as a GM and another one as a player so I know when I am underwhelmed by an AP. I had reservations about Carrion Crown and Jade Regent too but by the same stage in development for those two that we are at now for Shattered Star my opinion had come round. In this case I still have concerns. Hence this thread.
Reading book 1 isn't an option if I am going to play. I have to make a decision to run or play before that, based on the evidence I have now. That's one of the other reasons I made this thread.
@James: Always nice when you pop up in a thread James. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
If I didn't think you listened to feedback I wouldn't have posted this. That it's not an "all Pathfinder all the time" AP is encouraging but I still have reservations. I find dungeon crawling less fun than investigation and talky encounters so the seemingly heavy dungeon element of this AP is an area of concern to me.
That said, you (and Wolfthulu) are correct to say that I may be jumping the gun a little and judging on limited evidence. That's a fair summation. My point is that I am at the stage of deciding whether to run or play. Seeing as how I have reservations it's probably better to hand this one over to Mrs Camelot and enjoy the ride. I came up with a nefarious plan tonight for a character so I think that's the best plan.
One point to all on this thread. I am all for variety in my AP's. I would rather Paizo be ambitious and fail than be safe and average. However, one of Paizo's great strengths is that they listen to feedback and criticism. I feel that as this is the case I would be remiss as a loyal customer to not voice my misgivings. In indicating that there are elements to this AP that I dislike I encourage discussion and if my concerns are...
I love me some dungeon crawling, that's for sure. But I know that you're going to find lots of engaging personalities in my volume of the AP and lots of opportunity for rich, talky role play (especially if you use the web supplement that will be available). I'm very confident that the other volumes offer the same, though I've only seen Greg's so far (by the way, it is an awesome opener for the AP).
I should also add that I've written for PFS, I've written a stand alone module and I've written an AP volume. I can attest that the AP doesn't feel like a PFS scenario at all and is more story heavy than most stand alone modules.
I'm hoping you take a leap of faith in Paizo and either run it or play in it. There's a lot to enjoy and more variety in the game play than you might imagine.
I'm interested in running this for my Darklight Sisterhood game with my players as the antagonists. This sounds awesome so far.
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<--- loves Varisia
<--- loves dungeon crawls
<--- loves the Indiana Croft angle.
<--- is kinda "Meh" on working for the Pathfinder Society. Looking forward to reading the AP some more.
<--- Also lurves the architect of the Mud Sorcerer's Tomb. :)
I only have one reservation: Skulls and Shackles was beyond terrible. The writing was bad, the railroad nature of the hook was the worst I've ever seen, and I had a hard time finding any set piece in that AP that was at all interesting enough to pluck out and use somewhere else.
Yeah, I really disliked it. Horrible forced railroad beginning and linear progression from there. And I hated the whole 'evil AP' thing. I got some use out of some of the encounters and NPCs but there's no way I could run it as written.
Though one bad AP is hopefully just a one-off. After something like that, I think a return to the basics of Shattered Star is probably a good idea.
Some people just have really bad memories of "That one time the GM did something that could have been cool but just sucked." And others don't like the idea of anything bad happening to their character without any control over it, ever. Both buttons are likely to be pressed by having characters start out press-ganged (or otherwise taken prisoner and stripped of equipment.)
It just wouldn't fly with my players. I'm going to use some of the situations or encounters when I do a pirate-hunting game I have planned (the players have an inkling to play Chelaxian privateers), and the generic seaborne encounters could fit anywhere.
But it sounds like Shattered Star can be run for any group right out of the box, substituting the PFS for whatever employers the PCs prefer. In fact, they have gone out of their way to say this ever since the AP was announced.
I don't think the press-ganged aspect adds anything to the adventure, aside from taking away PC choices for their first four levels. It wouldn't have been hard to come up with alternative options, but they wanted to railroad it.
And there were some horrible mis-steps like the Isabela character - they put her on the cover for God's sake, then refuse to let the players interact with her. As written, all you can do is kill her. And S&S is full of this kind of railroading. You can change things, but you're actively fighting the material.
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Creative Director
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I dont see how the opening for Skull and Shackles was any more railroady than any other AP. They all pretty much force you to get together.
And I don't see how that's a bad thing. Since it's what lets you play a game with four or so players in a party. If an adventure doesn't set up a group... you don't have a Pathfinder game. You have four different games being run simultaneously by one GM and that's not fun at all for the poor GM!
And I don't see how that's a bad thing. Since it's what lets you play a game with four or so players in a party.
Sorry James, that sounds lazy.
There could have been other options to get the players involved, but you chose not to do them.
That's fine, that's your choice, but some people are not going to enjoy that kind of heavy-handedness. Particularly when you've gone out of your way to say, 'ooh, if you don't like the PFS, you don't have to use it in Shattered Star!'
And I don't see how that's a bad thing either.
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And I don't see how that's a bad thing. Since it's what lets you play a game with four or so players in a party.Sorry James, that sounds lazy.
There could have been other options to get the players involved, but you chose not to do them.
That's fine, that's your choice, but some people are not going to enjoy that kind of heavy-handedness. Particularly when you've gone out of your way to say, 'ooh, if you don't like the PFS, you don't have to use it in Shattered Star!'
And I don't see how that's a bad thing either.
Hey Anlerran, how about you go write a couple of award-winning adventures and then lecture the T-rex on how to do his job? :)