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What makes a divine spell divine?
Seems to me that it’s a question of the caster of the spell and how it’s being cast rather than the spell itself. After all a cleric casting a domain spell that is “normally arcane” is still a divine spell otherwise said cleric could use their ability to cast such spells to fulfill other prerequisites such as the requirements to become a Mystic Therge for instance without needing more than a single level in an arcane spell casting class.
So if bonus cleric spells are considered divine because they can be cast as divine spells then wouldn’t that hold true for other spell casting classes as well? Wouldn’t an Elf oracle’s bonus spells also be considered divine because they are being cast by a divine spell caster? And would that still remain true even if that Elf was an Ancient Lorekeeper (Oracle, Advance Race Guide page 24)?
The problem then becomes one of the Ancient Lorekeepers abilities and that’s Elven Arcana
Quote:
Elven Arcana (Ex): At 2nd level, an ancient lorekeeper’s mastery of elven legends and philosophy has allowed her to master one spell used by elven wizards. She selects one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list that is at least one level lower than the highest-level oracle spell she can cast. The ancient lorekeeper gains this as a bonus spell known. The spell is treated as one level higher than its true level for all purposes. The ancient lorekeeper may choose an additional spell at 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th levels. This ability replaces the bonus spells she would normally gain at these levels from her chosen mystery.
Fallowing this logic, any spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list 8th level and lower could then be considered a divine spell in the right hands. If this is true then another entry in the Advanced Race guide becomes a bit more of an issue and that’s on page 198 for the Samsarans.
Quote:
Mystic Past Life (Su): You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.
Not really a problem for divine spell casters, it’s not that far of a stretch from what Lorekeepers can do, right? But what about a Samsaran arcane spell caster? Sure divine Samsarans can open up the vast majority of arcane spells to learn as divine spell by fallowing the bonus spell/caster path, but what about the reverse? Can a Samsaran wizard learn Heal or Raise Dead? I haven’t found a path that would allow them to do so yet (that doesn’t mean it’s not there though). Is this the intent of Paizo? Should divine casters have the spell options open up and not the arcane casters?
Am I understanding this correctly?
I don’t know, seams that this rule can be cleaned up/polished a bit. Seames that either a note excluding bonus spells granted from the possible choices or opening up the choices for arcane casters would be preferable. We can take some que’s from Wish and Miracle on how to handle this, something like,
“You may choose any spell 2 levels or lower than the maximum spell level for your class to add to your spell list for that class, these spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st level character, however the choice must be made at 1st level and cannot be changed once made.”
Note, this would mean that a wizard or cleric could choose up to 7th level non class spells to use for their class while paladins and rangers would be limited to 2nd level non class spells for theirs. Again it keeps in line with the established precedence established from spells like Wish and Miracle.
Something along these lines also helps plug a nasty little loophole created by the spell Paragon Surge, but that’s a different topic and one that could be solved by specifying in the spell “any one combat feat”. I haven’t heard of anyone trying to use that spell to get around item creation feats, but I suppose that’s only a matter of time and again a different topic.
So any ideas, thoughts or comments about what makes a divine spell divine and its interaction/impactions in regards to Samsarans?
An alternative could be something along the lines of,
“The spells must come from the same kind of spell casting list (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, a druid could not add fireball even though it is a fire domain spell because it is a bonus spell and is not on the cleric class spell list, however they could add Raise Dead because it is on the cleric class spell list and clerics are also divine spellcasters like druids.”
An FAQ clarifying this one way or the other would be great as well.
Mystic Past Life appears to require the spells be off of a list. The Lorekeeper's bonus spells aren't on a list. It is debatable whether domains and patrons are divine and arcane spell lists respectively, but stuff cherry picked from the wizard list is certainly not on a divine class list.
More terrifying (and probably just as worthy of FAQing) is that according to Mystic Past Life, is can I add 'Bestow Grace of Champions' from the pally spell list as a 4th level spell. Debatable as to how that would fly to a Cleric spell (as it's already a cleric 7th), but what about a druid who doesn't have it on their spell list? Anyone REALLY want to see what happens when you overlay that spell on a wild shape focused druid and they can do it as early as 7th?
Least the Elven Arcana specifies that it must be from the sorc list so you can't pick up Dominate Monster from Summoner and have it a 7th.
Summoner produces so many Samsaran shenanigans it's absurd. Witch patrons could be even worse though, which is a good argument to nix patron and domain spells. Any arcane hybrid caster with Divine Favor is going to cause issues. Except possibly Master Summoner, who is already causing so many issues it's hard to make them worse. Letting them cast Good Hope is a start, though.
domains and special abilities adding spells to a spell list does not make them intrinsically part of the spell list for any other character, you can not use that point of reasoning to gain access to more spells. If a monster entry says they have access to the cleric spell list it doesn't include all the domains either unless specifically specified.
The witch has quite a few 'divine' spells on her list, including heal I believe though at 7th level if I am not mistaken, dubious but doable considering it is at least a level higher.
In my campaigns I would restrict it to the sorcerer/wizard and witch list for the arcane, and druid and cleric for divine. The partial casting classes throw many such things off balance by granting spells earlier than is customary for full casters.
To clearify, currently the rule dose not specify that the spells to be add need to come from a list, it dose specifies that
"You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class."
so add to your list and not comes from another list but from another class, as well as,
"The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to."
That being said, is a fireball cast by a cleric a divine spell? If so then wouldn’t it qualify for Samsaran “barrowing”, if not then dose that fireball fill the prereqs as being able to cast arcane spells such as needed to become a Mystic Thurge?
Don’t get me wrong, its currently one of those sticky grey lines that cause so many problems, and thus the reason for this thread in the first place.
@ Ecaterina Ducaird: Druids have to be at least somewhat neutral in alignment, and bestow grace of the champion can only be cast on someone who is lawful good. But that's a tangent.
@ MLHagan: I suggest that you use philosophy. Essence and substance are two different things, as proven by the fact that you can identify a chair by its chairness, regardless of its specific materials or form.
When cast by a divine caster, a spell's substance is divine; however, its essence remains that of whatever spell list(s) that it's on. For ruling on something like Mystic Past Life, go by the essence of the spell in itself -- not its substance in an irrelevant specific circumstance.
What's more, Mystic Past Life refers to "another spellcasting class" singular. So, you can make your player pick one and stick to it. Beyond that, it doesn't say anything at all about what level they get the other class's spell at, so you can make it whatever you want. I recommend basically treating the spells of a non-full caster as what level they would be if the class weren't so mundane.
To find a spell's essential level, take whatever level the character would have to be to cast the spell, then round up to the nearest even level and divide by two. For example, wind wall is a 2nd-level ranger spell, and a 3rd-level druid spell. However, rangers can't cast it until character level 7 (at the earliest), so it's essentially a 4th-level spell for them.
And there's nothing in the RAW that says you can't do it that way. So that's my recommendation to you.
Fredrik wrote: @ Ecaterina Ducaird: Druids have to be at least somewhat neutral in alignment, and bestow grace of the champion can only be cast on someone who is lawful good. But that's a tangent.
@ MLHagan: I suggest that you use philosophy. Essence and substance are two different things, as proven by the fact that you can identify a chair by its chairness, regardless of its specific materials or form.
When cast by a divine caster, a spell's substance is divine; however, its essence remains that of whatever spell list(s) that it's on. For ruling on something like Mystic Past Life, go by the essence of the spell in itself -- not its substance in an irrelevant specific circumstance.
So back to the question of the fireball, it is clearly in the domain of fire, thus governed by the gods of fire, thus makes perfect sense that clerics cast it as a divine spell. As for how wizards cast it?… In any case there is precedence of divine casters casting fireball as well as cure light wounds and not causing a power balance problem.
There’s ambiguity open to different kinds of interpolations rather than being a clear cut ruling one way or the other.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with the implied spirit though that takes some assumption on my part as to what the intent actually is and my not be the same as someone else’s interpolation.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
There was a guy called Gary Gygax who made fireball an arcane spell and cure light wounds a divine spell.
It's been ever since, because if anything, D&D players sure do love their things done The Old Way.
Gorbacz wrote: There was a guy called Gary Gygax who made fireball an arcane spell and cure light wounds a divine spell.
It's been ever since, because if anything, D&D players sure do love their things done The Old Way.
Witch ?
Fire Domain ?
Fire mystery ?
Bard ?
I think there has been significant relaxation in that stance since 3rd edition at least.
Fredrik wrote: MLHagan wrote: So back to the question of the fireball, it is clearly in the domain of fire, thus governed by the gods of fire, thus makes perfect sense that clerics cast it as a divine spell. As for how wizards cast it?… In any case there is precedence of divine casters casting fireball as well as cure light wounds and not causing a power balance problem. Yes, it makes perfect sense for an oracle of flame or cleric of Sarenrae to cast fireball with the substance of a divine spell, even though its essence (in the sense of its spell lists) is purely arcane. But the substance of a particular instantiation doesn't change its essence. and spells like detect magic? arcane or divine? what about spells like Lock Gaze? predomiatly arcane however its also on the inquisitor spell list and they are divine. Lock Gaze isn't a bonus spell or anything like that, but its a blurry spell to define as being divine or arcane because its both without being on the clerics or druids spell list.
would it be easier to put an errata on each and every spell to clearify arcane or divine or to clearify this new rule as suggested in the first 2 posts of this thread. perhaps we could go with a 3rd option something alone the lines of,
"If the class that you are adding spells to is a divine spell casting class then you may add any spell from the cleric/oracle or druid spell list to your spell list. If the class that you are adding spells to is arcane then you may add any spell from the wizard/sorcerer or witch spell list to your spell list."
this would solve the problem of bonus spell confusion as well as prevent the abuse of pulling spells from paladin to cleric to get some spells earlier than intended. (and yes some polishing of the statment would be required befor official release).
Wow, it only took me two minutes to decide that that post was more trouble than it was worth, and you still managed to quote it. Oh well! :)
What makes a spell turn divine? Is it lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of divinity?
Large amounts of pretty colors. Colorful spells are absolutely divine.
Ascalaphus wrote: Like color spray? No like Black Tentacles.
A spell is "divine" if the class you are casting it from is a divine caster.
The spell is "arcane" if the class you are casting it from is arcane.
If it isn't obvious (and not all are) just read the Spellcasting description for the class in question.
Keep in mind- domains don't add to your class list. They are domain spells not "class spells" anymore than any other special ability adds to any given class (rather than to that particular character).
So "is fireball arcane or divine?" Well- who is casting it?
if a cleric has it on their list somehow then its a divine spell.
If its a wizard casting it, then its arcane.
I think its important at least for this discussion to realize that "fireball" is really "magic that makes a fireball with X, Y, Z parameters".
And that a wizard does it wizardly ways, and that clerics do it by asking their deity (who then does it for them- or at least that seems to be the fluff).
Both are using magic to accomplish the same thing but *how* they do the magic is entirely different.
Imagine doing calculus using a super computer and then doing it by hand.
Both use the same math and come to the same result- but one's using the computer to do it for them and the other is doing it themselves.
the Arcane/divine distinction is largely like that- at least in my opinion.
So for the purposes of Mystic Past Life you'd look at the class you are having as the base, and then find other classes within that same category then look at the spell lists for it.
So, for example, if you as a cleric took it you could look at the Paladin spell list or ranger or druid- since all are divine.
But not the wizard or sorc or bard or witch becuase those are arcane.
A spell itself, the arcane matrix of it, is neither arcane nor divine. Its just magic.
the arcane and divine distinction come in which road you use to get to that spell.
-S
Quote: What makes a divine spell divine? The class in question.
All casting classes specify either divine or arcane spells but often divine and arcane classes can cast several of the same spell so spells themselves are neither and are what the casting class says they are.
Selgard wrote: A spell is "divine" if the class you are casting it from is a divine caster.
The spell is "arcane" if the class you are casting it from is arcane.
If it isn't obvious (and not all are) just read the Spellcasting description for the class in question.
Keep in mind- domains don't add to your class list. They are domain spells not "class spells" anymore than any other special ability adds to any given class (rather than to that particular character).
So "is fireball arcane or divine?" Well- who is casting it?
if a cleric has it on their list somehow then its a divine spell.
If its a wizard casting it, then its arcane.
This is were the confusion comes in,
So if there is an Elf Oracle with the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype then there is no problem with them casting fireball as a divine spell because they have Elven Arcana. Fireball could even be a favored spell of that oracle making it mean more to them through their actions. Cool, so far easy to fallow.
They die and in their next life or incarnation they come back as a Samsaran, because they were an Oracle in their previous life they are inclined to be a divine spell caster again in this new life. They can access spells they could cast in previous lives through Mystic Past Life, they would be more inclined to bring forth favored spells they cast as divine spells into there new life and this would include fireball.
This is the flavor and essence of the Samsaran race. Isn’t it?
Divine spells are granted by dieties.
Arcane spells are learned via reasoning (wizards), or innate (sorcerer, bards, summoners etc.)
No matter the source, arcane or divine, the end result is about the same, they are all still spells.
Think of spells as art styles, varied, yet, they are all art :)
This is the reason you can use counterspell without considering the origin of the spell, and so forth. Like a divine haste, can still counter and dispel an arcane slow.
"Spells of another spellcasting class" does not include archetypes of that spellcasting class.
MLHagan wrote:
This is were the confusion comes in,
So if there is an Elf Oracle with the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype then there is no problem with them casting fireball as a divine spell because they have Elven Arcana. Fireball could even be a favored spell of that oracle making it mean more to them through their actions. Cool, so far easy to fallow.
They die and in their next life or incarnation they come back as a Samsaran, because they were an Oracle in their previous life they are inclined to be a divine spell caster again in this new life. They can access spells they could cast in previous lives through Mystic Past Life, they would be more inclined to bring forth favored spells they cast as divine spells into there new life and this would include fireball.
This is the flavor and essence of the Samsaran race. Isn’t it?
Maybe I misremembering, but you don't live as an elf and come back as a samsaran. You live as a samsaran and when you die you come back as a samsaran. Over. and over. and over. It's a closed loop that's filled with samsarans and no other races.
As far as the spell type, some spells can be both arcane and divine, but each individual casting is determined by the caster. Further more, I wouldn't say that Fireball is a cleric spell, because it is not. It is a Fire domain spell certainly, and clerics can get the Fire domain, but that does not mean that any of the spells in it are cleric spells.
Dominigo wrote:
Maybe I misremembering, but you don't live as an elf and come back as a samsaran. You live as a samsaran and when you die you come back as a samsaran. Over. and over. and over. It's a closed loop that's filled with samsarans and no other races.
As far as the spell type, some spells can be both arcane and divine, but each individual casting is determined by the caster. Further more, I wouldn't say that Fireball is a cleric spell, because it is not. It is a Fire domain spell certainly, and clerics can get the Fire domain, but that does not mean that any of the spells in it are cleric spells.
Other races can become Samsarans, infact Samsarians don't have Samsaran children, the children are human, though those children may become Samsarans after their deaths.
as for fireball, yea, it is a cleric domain spell granted by there deity, thus a divine spell. A domain spell from a divine spell casting class.
So why wouldn't a Samsaran be able to add it to their spell list via Mystic Past Life for another divine spell casting class in their new incarnation?
MLHagan wrote: What makes a divine spell divine? After I sneak into your house, kill you, and feast on your entrails, who is most upset?
(a) Your diety -- You are a Cleric or Oracle. Your spells are divine
(b) Your pet -- You are a Druid. Your spells are divine.
(c) Your spouse -- You are a Witch. Your spells are arcane.
(d) Your lover to whom you are not married -- You are a Bard or Oracle. Your spells are arcane.
(e) Lots of folks because I get to loot your tower first -- You are a Wizard. Your spells are arcane.
You said Oracle twice. :-p
A spell is Arcane if it is on the spell list for an Arcane caster, and Divine if on the spell list of a Divine caster. That's it. You have to look at the base classes.
That said, you can get Heal on a Wizard via the Witch, because Witches have some awesome spells from Divine thrown into their Arcane.
Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll wrote: MLHagan wrote: What makes a divine spell divine? After I sneak into your house, kill you, and feast on your entrails, who is most upset?
(a) Your diety -- You are a Cleric or Oracle. Your spells are divine
(b) Your pet -- You are a Druid. Your spells are divine.
(c) Your spouse -- You are a Witch. Your spells are arcane.
(d) Your lover to whom you are not married -- You are a Bard or Oracle. Your spells are arcane.
(e) Lots of folks because I get to loot your tower first -- You are a Wizard. Your spells are arcane. Oracle's are divine, but i get your logic, a spell is determined to be divine or arcane by who cast the spell or more to the point what fules the spell. so if a wizard could cast divine power then it would be an arcane spell, but a mystic theurg can cast cleric spells using arcane power with the feat Theurgy making them arcane or divine spells as they see fit.
does that mean that any spell casting class can choose any spell they want for Mystic Past Life if they can explain how one of there previous past lives was able to cast said spell as a given type?
or dose it mean that Mystic Past Life should be treated the same way that clerics and oracles treat cure and inflict spells, and thats only by the actual name of the spell itself?
or perhaps its any spell that uses the word arcane or divine either in its name or description that is the limit leaving the rest of the spell such as fireball or even raise dead for that matter as fair game for any spell casting class to choose from because they don't use either of the words arcane or divine in there name or discription.
They can't add fireball because it is not a cleric spell. It is a domain spell, which are different from cleric spells. The same logic says that there is a Rogue Spell list that contains every Wizard/Sorcerer cantrip and 1st level spell because you can find unique cases of rogues being able to cast them.
Domain spells can be gained through methods other than being a cleric and domain spell slots are not interchangeable from regular cleric spell slots. This would imply that any spells that come through a domain are not counted as a 'cleric spell'. If you want to house rule it for your games, that's fine, but it seems pretty clear that domains were not intended to interact with that ability.
Serisan wrote: You said Oracle twice. :-p I'd say that's because we're awesome, but it's more likely because (d) was supposed to be "Bard or Sorcerer". ;)
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MLHagan wrote: Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll wrote: MLHagan wrote: What makes a divine spell divine? After I sneak into your house, kill you, and feast on your entrails, who is most upset?
(a) Your diety -- You are a Cleric or Oracle. Your spells are divine
(b) Your pet -- You are a Druid. Your spells are divine.
(c) Your spouse -- You are a Witch. Your spells are arcane.
(d) Your lover to whom you are not married -- You are a Bard or Oracle. Your spells are arcane.
(e) Lots of folks because I get to loot your tower first -- You are a Wizard. Your spells are arcane. Oracle's are divine, but i get your logic, a spell is determined to be divine or arcane by who cast the spell or more to the point what fules the spell. so if a wizard could cast divine power then it would be an arcane spell, but a mystic theurg can cast cleric spells using arcane power with the feat Theurgy making them arcane or divine spells as they see fit.
does that mean that any spell casting class can choose any spell they want for Mystic Past Life if they can explain how one of there previous past lives was able to cast said spell as a given type?
or dose it mean that Mystic Past Life should be treated the same way that clerics and oracles treat cure and inflict spells, and thats only by the actual name of the spell itself?
or perhaps its any spell that uses the word arcane or divine either in its name or description that is the limit leaving the rest of the spell such as fireball or even raise dead for that matter as fair game for any spell casting class to choose from because they don't use either of the words arcane or divine in there name or discription. It has nothing to do with how you explain or fluff it.
You pick a type of casting that matches the class you are attaching the spells to.
So if you are a cleric taking it then you are bound to spells on divine lists, and if you are a wizard (or bard or whatever) then you are bound to use it for arcane spells.
-S
Dominigo wrote: They can't add fireball because it is not a cleric spell. It is a domain spell, which are different from cleric spells. The same logic says that there is a Rogue Spell list that contains every Wizard/Sorcerer cantrip and 1st level spell because you can find unique cases of rogues being able to cast them.
Domain spells can be gained through methods other than being a cleric and domain spell slots are not interchangeable from regular cleric spell slots. This would imply that any spells that come through a domain are not counted as a 'cleric spell'. If you want to house rule it for your games, that's fine, but it seems pretty clear that domains were not intended to interact with that ability.
but Mystic Past Life currently isn't pulling from a specific or given class spell lists, it is pulling from divine or arcane spell.
"You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class."
"The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to."
this is very simular to how clerics can cast cure or inflict spell spontaniously, that required a further definiton to prevent such confusion which inturn excluded the spells heal and harm.
so dose this come down to simply a case of word use in either then spell name or discription?
Selgard wrote:
It has nothing to do with how you explain or fluff it.
You pick a type of casting that matches the class you are attaching the spells to.
So if you are a cleric taking it then you are bound to spells on divine lists, and if you are a wizard (or bard or whatever) then you are bound to use it for arcane spells.
...
where dose it define or require source spell lists in the description of Mystic Past Life? Thats the question, fireball is not divine or arcane, that aspect is determined by who casts the spell, so each and every spell that a cleric cast is divine.
Don't get me wrong, it would make this discussion much easier if Mystic Past Life did specify spell lists rather than divine or arcae in genral as the source, but it currently dose not.
detect magic can be cast as either an arcane or divine spell, so too can cure light wounds and even fire ball. its not the spell that determines that but the caster. so any spell choosen with Mystic Past Life would inherantly be cast as the proper type as the spell caster casting it because thats determined by the caster and not the spell, otherwise a cleric could use their ability to cast fireball to qualify for Mystic Theurg.
that being said, just by virtue of selecting the spell via Mystic Past Life it ensures that it conforms to the requirement of being divine or arcane as needed.
It is clear that you are going to believe whatever you want. Just don't expect me to agree with you.
Fredrik wrote: It is clear that you are going to believe whatever you want. Just don't expect me to agree with you. the only thing that i a saying is that as it is currently stated is open to interpitation, and that can be a problem as shown. I agree that it should be limited to given spell lists however thats not what the rule says. So clearification from the devs would be greatly appresiated. in other words, currently there is a loophole that dosn't need to be there nor should it be there.
This thread confuses me. Mystic Past Life is talking about spell lists. What may be throwing you off MLHagan is that there are the generic class spell lists (called just 'spell list'), and spell lists unique to a character (referred to as 'your spell list').
Mystic Past Life lets you take a spell from a generic "spell list" and add it to "your spell list." You can't take a spell off of another character's spell list (like a Bob the fire domain cleric) and add it to "your spell list"
Though, technicalities aside, an arcane caster can already get all the good cleric spells off of the witch spell list.
The way I see it, all magic was originally Divine, coming from Clerics and Adepts (and Oracles in PF), and a little from Druids, though Druids, mis-believing that their faith is more primal and original tend to place their faith(s) as the oldest. Later on, people began to develope the various spells and magic either through study and interbreedingin, and Arcane magic began to develope as and expand, and essentually throug research and individual development, the majority of spells have an Arcane sorce as well.
As far as the mechanical divide, while there are a few things that really matter if it is Divine or Arcane, there is zero consistency as to what really seperates the two. There are Clerics (and Druids, and Paladins, and Oracles, and etc, and etc. . .) that have Divine Magic without any deity. There are entire settings that have no deities, period. The base Sorcerer requires no study or scientific research for their magic, and in fact anyone can have a touch of magic, (not just the elite wanna-bees) through the Rogue class or arious Feats and Traits.
So, at it's absolute base, Divine Magic is essentually the understanding of the deeper mysteries of the universe and one's place in it (and possibly a unified strong belief in something), and Arcane Magic is utilizig either natural energies and forces around the caster or drawing on properties of the caster's blood and self. Even the basest rule of thumb that Arcane shouldn't be able to heal, (or cast Heal) and that Divine shouldn't be able to throw fireballs went out the window.
"Devil's Advocate" wrote: The way I see it, all magic was originally Divine, coming from Clerics and Adepts (and Oracles in PF), Nit-pick: True-Dragons are natural arcane magic users. In fact, Dragons were probably using magic before humanoid-anity's most distant ancestors crawled out of the sea / were created from dust.
Also, an interesting thought. Divine magic is, by definition, the power granted mortals by gods. So do gods use divine magic? If so, would that not mean that they pray to an Overgod? Or to each other? Clearly that is a paradox. Gods are clearly arcane casters. So all magic is actually arcane. :D
Fun game: count the logical fallacies in the previous paragraph.
Knight Magenta wrote: This thread confuses me. Mystic Past Life is talking about spell lists. What may be throwing you off MLHagan is that there are the generic class spell lists (called just 'spell list'), and spell lists unique to a character (referred to as 'your spell list').
I think that your mistaken about Mystic Past Life specifing choosing spells from another class spell list.
"You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class."
but even if it did then cool, as a cleric i could choose to pull spells from the wizard class or spell list as long as the spells choosen were divine.
"The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to."
so a cleric could choose any divine spells from the wizard spell list.
spells like fireball are not arcane or divine as it can and is cast by both arcane and divne spell casters. infact each and every spell that a cleric casts is divine reguardless of it source. spells themselfs are not arcane or divine (unless otherwise specified in the spell name or discription), what determines if a spell being cast is arcane or divine is not the spell but the caster at that moment.
so a cleric could choose wish just as easily as a witch could, if the cleric casts wish then its a divine spell, if a witch casts wish then its an arcane spell, just like cure light wounds cast by a witch or cleric is either arcane or divine depending on the caster at the time.
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There's nothing confusing about the write up.
You 1) pick a class to add them to. check the Spellcasting section to see if its arcane or divine.
2) Pick a class to get a spell from.. check the spellcasting section to see if its arcane or divine.
3) if they are the same, BINGO! Pick your spells.
If not, go back to step 1 and repeat the process until they do match.
There are no divine spells on the wizard list. There are no arcane spells on the cleric list.
All cleric spells cast by a cleric are divine because its a cleric who is casting them. All spells cast by a wizard are arcane because its a wizard who is casting them.
You are trying to get a benefit from this feat that the feat isn't intending- which is to say "Pick any spell and add it to your list". It doesn't say that.
There are no arcane spells, there are no divine spells. There are arcane caster spell lists and divine caster spell lists. Trying to force this feat to say something it doesn't just isn't going to work.
If "Pick any list and choose spells from it" is what they'd have wanted, then thats what they'd have written. They clearly wanted to match the spells received to the spell list type you are already stuck with.
-S
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MLHagan wrote: or dose it mean that Mystic Past Life should be treated the same way that clerics and oracles treat cure and inflict spells, and thats only by the actual name of the spell itself? The spells they select need to be treated as how they exist natively in the core books. So "fireball" is always treated as arcane for that purpose.
MLHagan wrote: I think that your mistaken about Mystic Past Life specifing choosing spells from another class spell list.
"You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class."
but even if it did then cool, as a cleric i could choose to pull spells from the wizard class or spell list as long as the spells choosen were divine.
"The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to."
so a cleric could choose any divine spells from the wizard spell list.
spells like fireball are not arcane or divine as it can and is cast by both arcane and divne spell casters. infact each and every spell that a cleric casts is divine reguardless of it source. spells themselfs are not arcane or divine (unless otherwise specified in the spell name or discription), what determines if a spell being cast is arcane or divine is not the spell but the caster at that moment.
so a cleric could choose wish just as easily as a witch could, if the cleric casts wish then its a divine spell, if a witch casts wish then its an arcane spell, just like cure light wounds cast by a witch or cleric is either arcane or divine depending on the caster at the time.
Clerics and Oracles only get fireball as a bonus spell. However, it is never on either of their base lists. Therefore, you can never add it do your spell list with Mystic Past Life as a divine caster. It is also considered an arcane spell because the only spellcasters who can cast fireball from their base list are arcane spellcasters (magus, sorcerer, wizard). I agree that you are seeing this as being far more exploitable than it is.
Can a cleric cast the spell Heal spontaniously? no because it does not have the word cure or inflict in its name.
can an arcane spell caster select divine power with mystic past life? no because it has divine in its name.
can a divine caster select arcane mark? no because it has the name arcane in it.
traditionaly cure light wounds has been concidered divine magic however can both arcane and divine spell casters cast it? yes, can they choose it with mystic past life? yes because it does not have either the name arcane or divine in it.
traditionaly fireball has been concidered arcane, can both arcane and divine casters cast it? yes, and again why wouldn't they be able to select it via Mystic Past Life?
remember that Mystic Past Life does not refer to any limitation what so ever in the spell casting class as a source of the spell, it only limits the selecetion of indavidual spells. any change to that is just that a change or house rule and not as it is currently stated.
MLHagan wrote: can an arcane spell caster select divine power with mystic past life? no because it has divine in its name.
can a divine caster select arcane mark? no because it has the name arcane in it.
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No.
Not even close.
Mystic Past Life wrote: For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. MLHagan wrote: traditionaly fireball has been concidered arcane, can both arcane and divine casters cast it? yes, and again why wouldn't they be able to select it via Mystic Past Life?
remember that Mystic Past Life does not refer to any limitation what so ever in the spell casting class as a source of the spell, it only limits the selecetion of indavidual spells. any change to that is just that a change or house rule and not as it is currently stated.
That's because the limitations are functions of the spellcasting classes. Spells on divine caster lists are divine, spells on the arcane caster lists are arcane. Spells on both are both. Each spellcasting class lists what kind of spells it casts and the list of spells it can cast.
Individuals might be able to get a given spell (eg. fireball) as a divine spell but the spell itself is not on the class list. Mystic Past Life is perhaps the only exception.
EDIT: That is, potentially, it adds to the class list instead of your list... Although, it if does I wonder if that means that if affects every one who has that list...
Aioran wrote:
That's because the limitations are functions of the spellcasting classes. Spells on divine caster lists are divine, spells on the arcane caster lists are arcane. Spells on both are both. Each spellcasting class lists what kind of spells it casts and the list of spells it can cast.
Awsome, where is it stated in any of the rule books that any spell list is arcane or divine? sure it specifies that a wizard cast arcane spells but where does it go on to say that a wizard spell list is arcane? It seams that calling a given spell list arcane or divine is nothing more than an extrapolation, interpitation and or misconception.
but lets go ahead and asume that you are correct for a moment, each and every spell on the wizard spell list (arcane spell caster) is available to the ancient lorekeeper (oracle and divine spell caster).
does that make the wizard spell list divine?
is there any question if an anchient lorekeeper can add fireball or shadow walk to their list of spells known?
if it is not a problem for an anchient lorekeeper to do this why would it be a problem for a reincarnated oracle to do the same?
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MLHagan, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding as to what defines Arcane and Divine.
Let us start with a spell:
A person is casting Cure Light Wounds.
Is it arcane? No.
Is it Divine? No.
Why? Because we have not seen what class is casting the spell.
Bard has it on the bard spell list. Does that make it Arcane? Yes, for the bard.
Cleric has it on the cleric spell list. Does that make it Divine? Yes, for the cleric.
Now lets try an exercise:
You are playing a Wizard.
You want to select the spell Cure Light Wounds as one of your special spells to add to your Wizard list. Now you need to choose which class you are getting it from.
Do you add spells from the Bard spell list or the Cleric spell list? If you chose Bard you are correct. If you chose Cleric then you are making an illegal choice.
Why? Because Bard is Arcane and Wizard is also Arcane and Cleric is not Arcane.
Note: you do not get to select from Cleric Domain spells because those are not part of the Cleric class list.
I hope this clears it up.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote: MLHagan, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding as to what defines Arcane and Divine.
Let us start with a spell:
A person is casting Cure Light Wounds.
Is it arcane? No.
Is it Divine? No.
Why? Because we have not seen what class is casting the spell.
Bard has it on the bard spell list. Does that make it Arcane? Yes, for the bard.
Cleric has it on the cleric spell list. Does that make it Divine? Yes, for the cleric.
its the spell casting class that determines if a spell is arcane or divine. so fireball granted to a cleric from there domain is never on there class spell list as you have pointed out, and yet it is still cast as a divine spell because of the caster and not the spell list.
each and every spell added to an oracles list of spells known is cast as a divine spell because the oracle is a divine spell caster. this can be easily seen in the anchient lorekeeper, being able to choose spells from the wizards spell list and cast them using their divine spell per day.
any spell added via mystic past life would be either arcane or divine as needed by your definition. so is a druid adds wish from the wizard spell list with mystic past life that spell would then be divine because its now on the druid spell list. in effect a self fullfilling requirement, right?
if it was about the spell list the rather than the actual spells that are chosen why didn't Paizo specify that in the discription of Mystic Past Life? The specified spells and not spell lists instead.
why wouldn't the example given specify that arcane casters could not cast divine power because it is only on divine spell lists?
why did they diffine what constitues cure and inflict spells not buy there function but by the actual name of the spells in question?
why should we belive that the limiting diffrence in mystic past life between divine and arcane spells is detremined by spell list or function rather than what was actualy given in the example?
If it was a case of function rather than name on the actual spell why didn't they use a diffrent spell without the word "divine" in the name of the spell to demonstrate that?
I understand that you are sharing your interpitation, and i am thankful for that, but it is no more or less valid than other interpitations at this point, including the ones that i have posted.
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MLHagan. A Domain spell is a divine spell for the cleric. Even a Fireball.
Do not confuse a restriction of the ability 'pick a spell from a class list' with other abilities such as 'Domain spells' which are not part of the regular class list.
If it is NOT listed as a class spell for a given spell then it is not on that classes' spell list. You will never see fireball listed as 'cleric 3' despite the fact that Clerics have it as a Domain spell.
You can add spells to your personal list via various abilities, that does not change the class list.
ARG p198 wrote: Mystic Past Life (Su): You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past. Lets separate this out:
First: you choose a spellcasting class.
Arcane classes: Bard, Magus, Sorcerer, Summoner, Wizard, Witch
Divine classes: Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor, Oracle, Paladin, Ranger
If you are playing an Arcane class then you must choose another arcane class spell list.
If you are playing an Divine class then you must choose another divine class spell list.
Now: Check the spell list for that class. Select a number of spells equal to 1+ your key ability score.
Domain spells do not count as class spells. They are not on the class spell list.
The End.
This is not interpretation. It is black and white. In EACH AND EVERY spellcasting class it states what kind of class that class is.
CRB p35 wrote: Spells: A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list presented in Chapter 10. CRB p39 wrote: Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Chapter 10. Etc.
Two key phrases there: It tells you what type of spells that class casts and where to find the spell list. You will note that on that spell list there is no inclusion of Domain spell lists. That is because Domain spells are not 'Class spells'. They are extra. They are not added to the general class spell list. That is why you cannot use class spells per day to cast domain spells.
- Gauss
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MLHagan wrote: What makes a divine spell divine? One metric that determines that a spell is divine, is that a Diviner can't cast it.
Tudan Davken wrote: Serisan wrote: You said Oracle twice. :-p I'd say that's because we're awesome, but it's more likely because (d) was supposed to be "Bard or Sorcerer". ;) Yes.
But don't encourage the Forum trolls!
Gauss wrote: MLHagan. A Domain spell is a divine spell for the cleric. Even a Fireball.
Do not confuse a restriction of the ability 'pick a spell from a class list' with other abilities such as 'Domain spells' which are not part of the regular class list.
If it is NOT listed as a class spell for a given spell then it is not on that classes' spell list. You will never see fireball listed as 'cleric 3' despite the fact that Clerics have it as a Domain spell.
You can add spells to your personal list via various abilities, that does not change the class list.
ARG p198 wrote: Mystic Past Life (Su): You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past. Lets separate this out:
First: you choose a spellcasting class.
Arcane classes: Bard, Magus, Sorcerer, Summoner, Wizard, Witch
Divine classes: Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor, Oracle, Paladin, Ranger
If you are playing an Arcane class then you must choose another arcane class spell list.
If you are playing an Divine class then you must choose another divine class spell list.
this is where you are making up or adding rules, they are very fine house rules however it is not writen in the rule book as you are betraying it.
ARG p198 wrote: Mystic Past Life (Su): You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. step 1
select a spell casting class that is not your own.
is wizard the same spell casting class as cleric? no. is there any specification that the spells have to come from the same kind of class or spell list? no.
Gauss wrote:
Now: Check the spell list for that class. Select a number of spells equal to 1+ your key ability score.
step 2
no question here, we seam to be in agreement on this.
ARG p198 wrote:
The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell.
step 3 and this is key
the spell itself must be of the same type as the spell casting class that you are adding it to. note that it does not specifiy that the spell casting class or that list must be of the same type but on the spells in question.
"the spells must be of the same type"
is fireball as a spell itself an arcane or divine spell? the spell can be cast as either divine or arcane, so in effect it is both and only the cast at the time of casting determines if it is acrane or divine.
Gauss wrote:
Domain spells do not count as class spells. They are not on the class spell list.
The End.
This is not interpretation. It is black and white. In EACH AND EVERY spellcasting...
it is black and white that a spell such as fireball, detect magic, cure light wounds and so forth can be cast as either divine or arcane.
Gauss wrote:
CRB p35 wrote:
Spells: A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list presented in Chapter 10.
CRB p39 wrote:
Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Chapter 10.
Etc.
Two key phrases there: It tells you what type of spells that class casts and where to find the spell list. You will note that on that spell list there is no inclusion of Domain spell lists. That is because Domain spells are not 'Class spells'. They are extra. They are not added to the general class spell list. That is why you cannot use class spells per day to cast domain spells.
- Gauss
and you have made a jump that is not writen in the CRB
"Spells: A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list presented in Chapter 10."
not that it specifies what kind of magic the bard cast and not what kind of magic the bard spell list is.
if it said "A bard casts spells drawn from the bard arcane spell list" then i would argee with you, however as stated it is not a specification of the spell list but of the spell caster.
in otherwords it is saying that a square is also a rectangle however the reverse may not always be true.
remember how cure spells are treated, the spell "Heal" while in function acts like a cure spell, it is not clasified as a cure spell because it does not have the word "Cure" in its name.
"Aracne Mark" is treated as an arcane spell becaue it has arcane in its name. a cleric could not use mystic past life to gain arcane mark from a wizard spell list.
remember that mystic past life is only restricting the selection of indavidual spells and not a spell casting class or spell list.
its as easy as that.
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