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Hermea question


Pathfinder Campaign Setting General Discussion

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Aye, the argument is like "Hermea can't be LG because it's a eugenics experiment!"

THe correct term is "Hermea is LG, and it's running a LG eugenics program."

If you want to twist that around because you can't believe eugenics can be LG, that's your perogative. But by canon, Hermea and its people are dominated by LG mindsets, and they run eugenics.

This is NOT contradictory in the slightest. In human hands, sure, this would be rapidly corrupted. But there's a dragon in charge, taking the long view and keeping this on track.

The nation is LG. You have to deal with that as the foundation, and your explanation has to justify the LG, not bring it down because you don't personally believe it.

And the gold dragon is a DRAGON. Dragons of good are not obligated to be humble or secretive. Being humble and secretive also means being discrete and not painting a huge target on themselves for a bunch of adventurers with a thirst for treasure.

This dragon is getting around the need for secrecy as a defensive mechanism by surrounding himself with an entire nation of defenders. It's actually a very smart move. It's also progressive and forward thinking. He's actually brazenly open and yet cloaked in secrecy at the same time!

Doc the Grey put it well...the idea that Good can ONLY be reactionary, that it cannot be progressive, is a lie. Andoran is extremely progressive, bold, and it's NG...other nations despise the fact that it is actually EXPORTING Good ideals! Horrors! They call Andorans pushy and aggressive, for daring to defy slavery, tyranny, liberate the common folk, declare the rights of the common man, etc...other nations LOOK DOWN ON ANDORAN because they don't endorse slavery! All the other LG type nations, well, they're set up on a crusader basis, sacrificing themselves for the good of all folk everywhere against a vile foe, like good stupid LG pawns should. The IDEA that OUR NATION should be SUBJECTED to this unseemly GOODNESS and target of an ethically motivated crusade....what kind of primitive, simplistic louts ARE you?!?

==Aelryinth


LazarX wrote:
Set wrote:
Thanael wrote:
Can the parents choose to leave with their child?

I've not seen any indication that anyone can't choose to leave Hermea for any reason.

The clause in the contract in that you've signed away the right to make such decisions about your life. One thing that's clear. for whatever reason it might be, the dragon that rules Hermea is determined that the secrets of the island don't leave the island.

Not exactly true, since the whole of the Inner Sea knows the basics of Hermea, and lots of people go there to join (and are turned away at the docks). Inner Sea Primer even has a trait allowing you to be an adventurer who was born from Hermean breeding - likely an exile. Then there are those people who are invited in, given the specifics, and they refuse.

The exact details might be unknown, but what goes on in Hermea isn't exactly a secret.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Derek Vande Brake wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Set wrote:
Thanael wrote:
Can the parents choose to leave with their child?

I've not seen any indication that anyone can't choose to leave Hermea for any reason.

The clause in the contract in that you've signed away the right to make such decisions about your life. One thing that's clear. for whatever reason it might be, the dragon that rules Hermea is determined that the secrets of the island don't leave the island.

Not exactly true, since the whole of the Inner Sea knows the basics of Hermea, and lots of people go there to join (and are turned away at the docks). Inner Sea Primer even has a trait allowing you to be an adventurer who was born from Hermean breeding - likely an exile. Then there are those people who are invited in, given the specifics, and they refuse.

The exact details might be unknown, but what goes on in Hermea isn't exactly a secret.

That Hermea is a giant Eugenics project is known. What actually goes on? That's what M is keeping secret.


Enlight_Bystand wrote:
Derek Vande Brake wrote:
That Hermea is a giant Eugenics project is known. What actually goes on? That's what M is keeping secret.

That is one interpretation. I prefer to think he has a palisade, where the tenants of "the plan" are written in stone. Citizens are encouraged to visit and contemplate how they can become a more valuable asset in "the plan."

Then again, it is written by a dragon of great intelligence, and perhaps the whole of "the plan" is a bit confusing to a gifted farmer that enjoys playing the lute and lifting heavy objects from one elevation to another. :P

Greg


Aelryinth wrote:

Aye, the argument is like "Hermea can't be LG because it's a eugenics experiment!"

The correct term is "Hermea is LG, and it's running a LG eugenics program."

The nation is LG. You have to deal with that as the foundation, and your explanation has to justify the LG, not bring it down because you don't personally believe it.

But it isn't! Hermea is listed as N. Says so right in the campaign setting.

And Mengkare's alignment is listed nowhere. Yes gold dragons are normally LG. But then they are also normally secretive and humble.


LazarX wrote:
Set wrote:
Thanael wrote:
Can the parents choose to leave with their child?
I've not seen any indication that anyone can't choose to leave Hermea for any reason.
The clause in the contract in that you've signed away the right to make such decisions about your life. One thing that's clear. for whatever reason it might be, the dragon that rules Hermea is determined that the secrets of the island don't leave the island.

One could argue that offering or enforcing such a contract while certainly being lawful is not morally good.

Shadow Lodge

Thanael wrote:


But it isn't! Hermea is listed as N. Says so right in the campaign setting.

Where? In what book? The inner sea world guide lists the steaming see as CN but nothing about hermea specifically.

Second the island may act neutral towards other nations: You leave me the hell alone, you don't bother me, i don't bother you" is a pretty neutral stance.

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And Mengkare's alignment is listed nowhere. Yes gold dragons are normally LG. But then they are also normally secretive and humble.

We have one example of a humble, secretive gold dragon. That doesn't set the standard any more than them being an entire race of Mendels playing with human pea plants.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thanael wrote:
Which brings us to another interesting point: How do the recruiters screen possible recruits?
People with exceptional ability tend to make themselves stand out. They also talk to your friends/neighbors etc, the typical investigative stuff.

Exceptional ability yes. But what about alignment? This is imho the problem. If he recruits exceptionally able people, he gets all the alignment spectrum, from the NE genius artist, to LE brilliant bankers, to N exceptional farmer. This is probably why the nation is N. It has all sorts of people.

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Detect Alignment does not work on low level applicants. What could get past these screenings?
You have to show up in front of mengekare himself to sign up.. so not a heck of a lot.

Really? Does he interview everyone himself? The adolescents born on Hermea too? Still how does he screen them? Detect good ? As i said doesn't work on low level people. And i do not believe that all recruited Hermeans are lvl 5+.

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How closely are citizens monitored?
Dunno, but its like living in any other small community, you don't NEED to watch people everyone's talking about you anyway.

Well it's not that small. 6300 people.

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Also I find the big moral dilemma is Hermean parents who might have to see their adolescent child fail the tests and not invited to stay on Hermea. Can the parents choose to leave with their child? Is it morally good to force them to choose between their home and their child ?
Probably not, but what other nation isn't doing anything at least as bad?

I imagine in the LG nations people do have more rights. Probably in most LN ones too.


Derek Vande Brake wrote:
Actually, having just reviewed the Inner Sea Primer and World Guide, I have to ask... where is it written that the nation is neutral? Hermean is included in the Steaming Sea region is both, and the whole region is CN, but that includes a lot of smaller islands as well as Mordant Spire.

It's in the 3.0 Campaign Setting.


doc the grey wrote:
Thanael wrote:


To me the experient is inherently doomed. There will be dilemmas where you have to choose between law and good. Apparently Mengkare chose law before good.

Is it not cruel to forcibly separate an adolescent child from it's parents if it is not up to your standards? Do not citizens of a nation have a right to not be thrown out on a (gold dragon's) whim?

This depends entirely on when exactly the children are tested and what age said children are considered self sufficient by their parents and the society at large. You have to remember that the age of adulthood in cultures varies wildly depending on who your talking to and when you are talking about. A good example might be historically where children were often considered part of the workforce and adults by around the age of 12 and were expected to know all they need to survive in their world as well as bear the responsibilities of adulthood by then, the whole idea of a barmitzvah is built on that concept. Now next you would have to factor in then that in the culture of hermea the training to both pass the test and survive as an adult in the outside world would be part of their cultural education. The other thing to remember is though it might royally suck to have to leave their families and home many of these now adults would have both already been prepared for this and are quite literally smarter, healthier, and more attractive then the normal stock and they know it, leaving them with a large set of intellectual, physical, and social skills to help them move up in the world quickly and potentially help spread the good they learned while back at home.

Yes. They are tested at 16 where in Pathfinder they should probably considered adult. Which makes the dilemma milder, but it's still there.

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
...
Lawful good combines honor with compassion.

Do not human beings and citizens of a nation have inherent rights? Ah, yes they are not citizens yet at 16, only if they pass the test. And what tests are those exactly I wonder? It is certainly lawful, but not very compassionate.

Where is the altruism, dignity and compassion in this?

What about the disabled? Are they thrown out generally? Or not allowed to procreate? Are there many halforcs on Hermea?

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Ah, you should read up on Gold Dragons in Dragons Revisited. I find the great wyrm golden dragon NPC there to be an excellent example of the humble secret good that a gold dragon normally does. He's living in an evil city giving food and hope to the poor, and not using his considerable power to just topple the evil rulers.
I don't know this still rubs me the wrong way as it's totally reactionary. I believe someone mentioned this on another thread but a lot of times we like to treat good as a reaction to evil instead of it's own working thing evil man decides to take over the world good rises up to stop it, robbers begin assailing the homes of innocents the heroes show up to stop it, a horde of evil orcs goes raping and pillaging through the countryside a king finds his good and rallies the forces of right and happiness to stop it. The problem with all these is that it paints good as only being able to act if evil gets to act first and that surely isn't/shouldn't be the case.

I'm not saying that LG beings in general should behave like that. (Though i think it's always a slippery slope - the road to Hell is paved with good intentions and all that)

But according to Dragons Revisited, LG gold Dragons do behave like that generally. So Mengkare is already deviant from typical gold dragon behaviour.

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I think Megankare is someone who see's all the suffering and tragedy brought on mankind both from within and without as well as all the potential they possess and thought "I might be able to help these people." To that end he decided to try to teach them all he knew and help them better themselves but like any good scientist wanted to make sure his ideas would work and that he fully understood what he was doing before he tried to bring it to the world and potentially do more harm then good. So he sets up an isolated island and finds the best that humanity has to offer and makes them an offer "I have come here to ask you to be a part of what could be the greatest advancement to all of society since they built the continent of Azlant. But to do it I need the greatest that mankind has to offer to be a part of it and I have come to you, one of the greatest examples of mankind that I have seen on this world to ask if you want to be a part of this my grandest experiment. So are you with me?"

To me I think he's a great idea and one of the few examples of proactive non reactionary good we have now he just has to hope that the people he selects are willing to work together and make it happen and he himself can execute the lofty goals he's trying to achieve.

Well at the least his experiment is apparently failing. The nation is N and far from any LG Utopia.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thanael wrote:
Do not human beings and citizens of a nation have inherent rights?

That's a modern concept. Previous to the Magna Carta there were no document that limited the King's God-like power over his subjects. And the term "inalienable rights" doesn't even come up until the American Declaration.


Thanael wrote:
Derek Vande Brake wrote:
Actually, having just reviewed the Inner Sea Primer and World Guide, I have to ask... where is it written that the nation is neutral? Hermean is included in the Steaming Sea region is both, and the whole region is CN, but that includes a lot of smaller islands as well as Mordant Spire.
It's in the 3.0 Campaign Setting.

You mean the same one that says Half Elves are often good at psionics and makes no mention of the Shoanti?


LazarX wrote:
Thanael wrote:
Do not human beings and citizens of a nation have inherent rights?
That's a modern concept. Previous to the Magna Carta there were no document that limited the King's God-like power over his subjects. And the term "inalienable rights" doesn't even come up until the American Declaration.

Exactly. And even were we to take a modern approach, we can't forget that Mengkare owns the land. So we say that people have inalienable rights. That does NOT include, even in modern legal theory, the right to live on somebody else's property without their permission. That's why my landlord can evict me.


I could actually see the rest of the world giving Hermea a Neutral rating. The 'Good' of the experiment is not expected to give fruit soon. And they do very little export or import trade with the rest of the world. They do not war with other nations, nor do they provide support. So in a world view, I can see them considered Neutral.

But they are LG within their community. After all, if you are not part of the experiment, you really should not be there. And you are probably contaminating the society. *blows whistle summoning guardsmen*

Greg

Shadow Lodge

Thanael wrote:

[

Exceptional ability yes. But what about alignment?
Still how does he screen them? Detect good ? As i said doesn't work on low level people. And i do not believe that all recruited Hermeans are lvl 5+.

Once you've ID'd someone with exceptional ability you ask the neighbors about their alignment. Did they help get the kitten out of the tree or did they punt it there in the first place? Did you help shovel old lady McGee's walkway when you were a kid or did you leave the dead skunk in her barn? He has recruiters running around Golarion

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This is imho the problem. If he recruits exceptionally able people, he gets all the alignment spectrum, from the NE genius artist, to LE brilliant bankers, to N exceptional farmer. This is probably why the nation is N. It has all sorts of people.

I believe he is picky enough to recruit for both.

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Really? Does he interview everyone himself?

No, but with whats bound to be a sense motive check in the 30's i don't think any outright pyscopaths under 5th level are slipping through.

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The adolescents born on Hermea too?

They're tested when they're 16. If they don't pass they're voted off the island.

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How closely are citizens monitored?
Dunno, but its like living in any other small community, you don't NEED to watch people everyone's talking about you anyway.
Well it's not that small. 6300 people.

Nearly every citizen is a government authority of some sort. Someone that knows you fairly well is going to report you.

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I imagine in the LG nations people do have more rights. Probably in most LN ones too.

Rights are more of a Law/Chaos thing. A chaotic neutral gnome enclave will let you have a gnomish high powered pressure still in your basement. even a chaotic good community is probably going to ask you to move that thing outside the city limits.


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Thanael wrote:
One could argue that offering or enforcing such a contract while certainly being lawful is not morally good.

One could argue, but one wouldn't have much basis for argument.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thanael wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Thanael wrote:


To me the experient is inherently doomed. There will be dilemmas where you have to choose between law and good. Apparently Mengkare chose law before good.

Is it not cruel to forcibly separate an adolescent child from it's parents if it is not up to your standards? Do not citizens of a nation have a right to not be thrown out on a (gold dragon's) whim?

This depends entirely on when exactly the children are tested and what age said children are considered self sufficient by their parents and the society at large. You have to remember that the age of adulthood in cultures varies wildly depending on who your talking to and when you are talking about. A good example might be historically where children were often considered part of the workforce and adults by around the age of 12 and were expected to know all they need to survive in their world as well as bear the responsibilities of adulthood by then, the whole idea of a barmitzvah is built on that concept. Now next you would have to factor in then that in the culture of hermea the training to both pass the test and survive as an adult in the outside world would be part of their cultural education. The other thing to remember is though it might royally suck to have to leave their families and home many of these now adults would have both already been prepared for this and are quite literally smarter, healthier, and more attractive then the normal stock and they know it, leaving them with a large set of intellectual, physical, and social skills to help them move up in the world quickly and potentially help spread the good they learned while back at home.

Yes. They are tested at 16 where in Pathfinder they should probably considered adult. Which makes the dilemma milder, but it's still there.

Umm sir I believe you are applying an ethnocentric and modern worldview to the setting as stated. You need to remember that the age of adulthood is set by the culture that it exists in and should be measured by the success of it's people within their environment and not by comparison to ones own culture which can often have very different problems environmentally, socially, and ethically that change their view. By the same logic you could say that sending any human sent off to war would be tantamount to child abuse or murder since they are barely out of the womb by elven standards. You have to remember that in the end it's all about the effectiveness of their system within the world that the aforementioned culture inhabits and from the context we are given within the work the country in and of itself is fine with this testing set up and many if not almost all children that actually take these tests pass without much incident. On top of this we can tell from crunch and fluff given here that those that do not pass are actually quite a bit better prepared then the standard person for the world outside the gates of their former home and quite often do just fine.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The PFRD Alignment section wrote:

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
...
Lawful good combines honor with compassion.

thanael wrote:

Do not human beings and citizens of a nation have inherent rights? Ah, yes they are not citizens yet at 16, only if they pass the test. And what tests are those exactly I wonder? It is certainly lawful, but not very compassionate.

Where is the altruism, dignity and compassion in this?

Again you are applying your own modern beliefs and ideas to a world that is quite literally wholly different from your own in it's cultural problems and needs. First lets look at this idea of inherent rights, the whole concept is as stated up thread a very modern concept that doesn't really appear till the american revolution in our history and took some of the greatest thinkers of the time to even put together so it's not exactly something that just pops up and is composed by any given man. But here for the sake of argument lets remove the time frame issue and just look at the idea of inherent rights the whole concept is built on the idea that everyone within the has rights that they all share and understand that they have access to. Now on that definition inherent rights could really mean anything from right to free speech to the right to hack off the hand of one who steals from you so long as all of those within the society have the knowledge that they have those rights. If this is a bit confusing look at modern examples we have like those on gay marriage, abortion, civil rights, or government health care all of which argue that it is their patrons inherent right to control and choose whom they can marry, what they can do with their body, with their life, and whether we should help others to keep from dying respectively. All of these are believed inherent rights by people in modern times and we still can't agree so unless golarion suddenly puts out a ten commandments of right inherent to all the people of the world and hermea is shown to be breaking them then this idea holds no water.

As for the compassion it makes a lot of sense, remember these guys are growing up in a civilization in which everyone is striving/is the best at everything that is a lot of pressure and responsibility to live up to no matter who you are and some people may just not be able to live up to that be it because of crumbling under pressure, lacking the requisite skills/mental health/maturity/physical ability, or maybe just not wanting to anything more then just be normal or live a more anonymous life and the test is a way to prove that you can to your people and potentially yourself that you can pull this off and if not that the people of hermea not only hold no ill will toward you but will help you make your transition into life on the outside and have given you the equipment needed to not only survive but thrive outside their lands.

thanael wrote:
What about the disabled? Are they thrown out generally? Or not allowed to procreate? Are there many halforcs on Hermea?

This again depends entirely on what the hermean's consider to be "disabled" as even in our own history what we call disabled has changed greatly. One great example of this in the real world the way we viewed homosexuality over the years as it used to be considered a mental disorder from the founding of psychology all the way up until the very recently in modern times.

Now on the point of Hermea I think it would again depend entirely on what kind of disability we are talking about and what kind of job and life the person is seeking to lead as someone who is say confined to a wheelchair is probably not going to many problems if he is going to say become a wizard or live a life in which his inability to walk isn't much of an issue and would probably be encouraged to either go into a career that emphasizes those skills not inhibited by his confinement or taught ways to use them to help find solutions to his problems like say using his gifted mind and particular problem of being in a wheelchair to say design prosthetic that allow the crippled to walk or automated wheelchairs that can be used to go off road.
Honestly the only disability I can think of that might get someone instantly kicked off the island is a mental need to destroy the project and all the good will it is trying to create as it would obviously go in direct opposition of the peoples stated goal and would potentially destroy the lives of the people therein.

Shadow Lodge

Assuming the dragons knowledge of genetics has gotten past lemark , disabled folks shouldn't be a problem... if they exist at all. The island does allow people to train in magic. While organized religion is banned a solitary priest or two isn't impossible, nor is an alchemist with cure light wounds, which will take your typical peasant from "bloody mess" to "resting comfortably" in 18 seconds tops.

Even if you need regenerate or the like, Mengekare can probably cast it (they cast divine spells as arcane)

Osirion

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Assuming the dragons knowledge of genetics has gotten past lemark , disabled folks shouldn't be a problem... if they exist at all.

True, so long as people don't have the whacky Lemarckian idea that a guy who lost a leg to a shark is going to produce kids missing a leg, disabled people shouldn't be an issue.

A 'perfect utopia' fashioned on LG ideals (whether or not Mengkare has slipped from those ideals himself, it's still where he started, after all!) wouldn't be all 'kill the cripples!'

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Even if you need regenerate or the like, Mengekare can probably cast it (they cast divine spells as arcane)

Even without clerics (and possibly without inquisitors and paladins), there are still alchemists, adepts, bards, druids, oracles, rangers and witches capable of offering various degrees of healing services.

Cleric-less healing wasn't terribly hard to find before the APG, and with four out of six APG classes capable of healing, it's just gotten easier.

Indeed, with three different arcane healing classes (alchemist, bard and witch), the whole 'no divine = no healing' trope is dead, dead, dead.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Once you've ID'd someone with exceptional ability you ask the neighbors about their alignment. Did they help get the kitten out of the tree or did they punt it there in the first place? Did you help shovel old lady McGee's walkway when you were a kid or did you leave the dead skunk in her barn? He has recruiters running around Golarion

Yes, the NPC -guide has an example: Jherek Oivos (NG hu Rog4/Wiz2):

Jherek was trained his entire life for this role, gifted with a silver tongue, keen eye, a skill of blending in, and a touch of magic.
...
His years of scouting in the Inner Sea, alas, have not born fruit, and he grows increasingly desperate.

Sounds like it is not really working out so well...

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Really? Does he interview everyone himself?

No, but with what's bound to be a sense motive check in the 30's i don't think any outright pyschopaths under 5th level are slipping through.

Good point. SM +35 is useful indeed. But if he does not interview every candidate himself some could slip through. Also humans can change...

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How closely are citizens monitored?
Dunno, but its like living in any other small community, you don't NEED to watch people everyone's talking about you anyway.
Well it's not that small. 6300 people.

Nearly every citizen is a government authority of some sort. Someone that knows you fairly well is going to report you.

Really? This sounds a bit like eastern germany's STASI. Not a very nice environment to live in.


Derek Vande Brake wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Thanael wrote:
Do not human beings and citizens of a nation have inherent rights?
That's a modern concept. Previous to the Magna Carta there were no document that limited the King's God-like power over his subjects. And the term "inalienable rights" doesn't even come up until the American Declaration.
Exactly. And even were we to take a modern approach, we can't forget that Mengkare owns the land. So we say that people have inalienable rights. That does NOT include, even in modern legal theory, the right to live on somebody else's property without their permission. That's why my landlord can evict me.

Yes it's a modern concept, but it fits with the alignment descriptioms and the often non medieval fantasy world.

Also, how does he own it? By right of conquest?

So Mengkare tried to find somewhere he could conduct his experiment uncorrupted by the rest of humanity and their bad influence. He settled upon an isolated jungle island located hundreds of miles from the coast of mainland Avistan.

Were there no native creatures at all on the island? In my game there were...


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Really? Does he interview everyone himself? \

Good point. SM +35 is useful indeed. But if he does not interview every candidate himself some could slip through. Also humans can change...

Lost track of who said what for quoting purposes :(

But, if I recall, the last part of becoming a citizen is a meeting with Mengakare. Everyone meets the dragon.

As to folk reporting your activities, my game would have it more of a good natured slant.

My high school years were in a small town. We lived in an apartment building. My grandmother managed it. My uncle lived one floor down. Three of my teachers lived in the building. My step mother taught in the same school. Her best friend was my employer. The girl I dated had relatives in the building. The building was across the street from my school. Everyone driving by, that knew me, knew if I had my lights on or not. My family always ALWAYS knew what was going on in my life. No one was submitting reports...but it was just as effective.

I see the community of Hermea, as a community. If someone gets sick, or injured, folk will know. If someone starts behaving "oddly", folk will know. In both situations, they will try to help.

And it awesome in your game that the isle was inhabited. I would have it empty. Such is GM style :)

Greg

Shadow Lodge

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Thanael wrote:
Really? This sounds a bit like eastern germany's STASI. Not a very nice environment to live in.

That may be the point: there IS no perfect place in golarion to live. Like anywhere else, this has its benefits and drawbacks.

One thing to note about hermea is its absolutely the safest country to live in. Where else in Golarion aren't you under threat from plagues, ravening hordes of undead, demonic invasions, demons running your country, lynch mobs, starving to death from abject poverty, being invaded by an imperialistic neighbor, an expansionist genius gorilla, a demigod level thousand year old Wizard coming out of stasis or an undead demigod/lich coming back from the dead?

Compared to that nosy neighbors arguing like a home owners association might not be a bad thing.


I'd view him as Lawful Good. But then, I am Chaotic Neutral.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thanael wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

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How closely are citizens monitored?
Dunno, but its like living in any other small community, you don't NEED to watch people everyone's talking about you anyway.
Well it's not that small. 6300 people.

Nearly every citizen is a government authority of some sort. Someone that knows you fairly well is going to report you.

Really? This sounds a bit like eastern germany's STASI. Not a very nice environment to live in.

By the same logic would that make America a lot like Nazi Germany as all citizens get to express their opinion in government and can run for any position offered and are encouraged to do everything they can to help maintain their society and culture? Sorry to be a bit blanketing here but by your logic any body who reports a suspicious character in their neighborhood would be as vile as the regimes you are espousing. I think the point he is trying to make is that when you live in a small town full of closely connected people the evil banking scam or mutilating puppy mill your running will get found out and reported rather quickly unless they have some ability to prevent their exposure through some form of societal pressure.

Taldor

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Some thoughts:

A few charred corpses would be just the strategy employed by a clever, less powerful red dragon and his dominated minions to turn favor against the gold overlord.

Spending generations of his time devoted to helping lesser beings makes Mengkare seem Good, and he certainly is Lawful in his methodology. I personally favor the conspiracy theories that make him something else.

Asking why he doesn't just fly around helping the less-fortunate is pretty much the same as asking why the party paladin isn't spending all their time building orphanages; he found a way to help people that not many others could manage, so he took that role upon himself. He might be happier composing sonnets or fishing, but (as he might see it) this program needs to be done.

My favorite part of this thread is where Set says he's twelve and makes a long, insightful, eloquent post. And Eric Mona, Chief Creative Officer, follows it immediately with his ironic perspective. Fantastic.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thanael wrote:

Yes it's a modern concept, but it fits with the alignment descriptioms and the often non medieval fantasy world.

Also, how does he own it? By right of conquest?

He owns it the way any other city or state owns their land... by right of possession and the fact that no one has displaced him or the country he created off of it. There's no central world ombudsman who gets to say who owns what. It's more of I'm here until someone pushs me off kind of situation.


Mengkare may still be LG but he is definitely not a "good guy". Hermea is not one of the "good guy" countries either.

I read Hermea as a bit of a "Zeroth Law" type situation. Mengkare I'm sure started out with the best intentions for helping humankind as a whole, but then rationalized away the worth of individuals because "humanity" is more important. The fact that he is a dragon essentially looking down on humans in every way possible helps with that train of thought.

If he has to toast the occasional malcontent, it is ok because humanity is served. I highly doubt that he is still LG in any case.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You've never read Dragonlance, have you. It's tons of gods and mortals doing some pretty scummy things yet retaining a good alignment.


LazarX wrote:
You've never read Dragonlance, have you. It's tons of gods and mortals doing some pretty scummy things yet retaining a good alignment.

Tons of gods? It has only 19 gods in it's current era and only 21 in the previous eras.

Well if you count Ionthas (Chaos) and Mina that's 21 and 23 respectively, but that is nowhere near the 150+ gods of FR and the going in that direction Golarion.

Could you list some specific examples of scumminess?

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