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James Sutter said to ask you both about Hermea in another thread.... so I'm asking, what are your opposing views on Hermea???
Link: Hermea
Reminds me of the "colony of only Alphas" that Mustapha Mond described in Brave New World.
It boils down to whether or not a creature that runs a eugenics experiment on an island that may or may not involve "disposal" of imperfect citizens could ever actually be lawful good.
My stance is no, he can not.
What if it were definitely the case that they didn't dispose of imperfect citizens? Do you think there's anything inherently non lawful good about eugenics experiments?
It boils down to whether or not a creature that runs a eugenics experiment on an island that may or may not involve "disposal" of imperfect citizens could ever actually be lawful good.
My stance is no, he can not.
I think it depends on "disposal" method.
Here you have some basic provisions and some gold that will allow you to live decently for a few months until you get used to productive work. Don't waste your chance, kid. Oh, I'd forgot, a geas shall prevent you of ever speaking of Hermea. Believe me, you don't want to test it.
Maybe I should tell him about the memeory-twisting spell that will make his mind look like the memory of Hermea itself was a false implant? Nah, he does not to know that...
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This thread is like putting two bugs in a jar and shaking it to make them fight. For shame! :)
For my part, I don't argue that Mengkare IS lawful good, I just argue that he MIGHT be, and that we all benefit from never answering that question in canon. Leaders--dragons or human--often have to make tough choices, and some things are best left up to interpretation and speculation.
So, it comes down to whether Hermea is a eugenics experiment or a LAWFUL GOOD eugenics experiment.
Heh.
It's a good thing breeding discussions over lower life forms in the modern day and age never get into thorny moral questions. Oh, wait.
==+Aelryinth
It boils down to whether or not a creature that runs a eugenics experiment on an island that may or may not involve "disposal" of imperfect citizens could ever actually be lawful good.
My stance is no, he can not.
i believe that since he doesnt "dispose" of imperfection by killing but instead "disposes" of imperfection by exile and to further progress themselves in the world he might be. plus they have a council that tries to help those who are struggling. then if they cannot better themselves to their standards they are released.
its good in trying to help them progress or worst case letting them go and its lawful since it follows his tennants of law. maybe not the best thing, but still lawful good.
So basically they breed for perfection and if you don't meet some completely arbitrary benchmark for said perfection you are kicked off the island and never allowed to return.
If the place you are being kicked to is a place you are most likely going to die, then you are looking at LE.. if its just some place that isn't "home" anymore, then you may be looking at LN. LG though? no. You aren't being Good, you aren't looking for the good of anything except your own arbitrary idea.
Good is looking out for the interest of others first. This dragon isn't doing htat, he's looking out for his own interest first, and to heck with everyone else second.
Even the utopia is setup for that goal- the fact that its beneficial to those "perfect" people is a mere side effect of the overall goal of stroking his own ego.
I think I talked myself down to him being LE.
-S
Personally, tend to believe that Mengkare is Lawful Neutral at best if he's fully responsible for both a eugenics experiment and "disposing" of imperfect citizens.
Though, one of my GMs threw me for a loop by having Mengkare take less of an active role in running Hermia. It was the Council that was "disposing" of people behind his back. This made Mengkare a little more able to qualify for a "Lawful Good" alignment.
So basically they breed for perfection and if you don't meet some completely arbitrary benchmark for said perfection you are kicked off the island and never allowed to return.
If the place you are being kicked to is a place you are most likely going to die, then you are looking at LE.. if its just some place that isn't "home" anymore, then you may be looking at LN. LG though? no. You aren't being Good, you aren't looking for the good of anything except your own arbitrary idea.
Good is looking out for the interest of others first. This dragon isn't doing htat, he's looking out for his own interest first, and to heck with everyone else second.
Even the utopia is setup for that goal- the fact that its beneficial to those "perfect" people is a mere side effect of the overall goal of stroking his own ego.I think I talked myself down to him being LE.
-S
except he isnt looking for his own interest first, but rather he is trying to help mankind reach its pinnacle, and therefore that is putting others first. and he doesnt just abandon you off in the ocean somewhere, they take you outside of the walls and you can they get a boat ride off the island. how is this evil?
It boils down to whether or not a creature that runs a eugenics experiment on an island that may or may not involve "disposal" of imperfect citizens could ever actually be lawful good.
My stance is no, he can not.
If you equate 'good' with freedom and self determination, than of course not. Not everyone does. It's very American of you to say so, though.
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If you equate 'good' with freedom and self determination, than of course not. Not everyone does. It's very American of you to say so, though.It boils down to whether or not a creature that runs a eugenics experiment on an island that may or may not involve "disposal" of imperfect citizens could ever actually be lawful good.
My stance is no, he can not.
confusing chaos with good.
except he isnt looking for his own interest first, but rather he is trying to help mankind reach its pinnacle, and therefore that is putting others first. and he doesnt just abandon you off in the ocean somewhere, they take you outside of the walls and you can they get a boat ride off the island. how is this evil?So basically they breed for perfection and if you don't meet some completely arbitrary benchmark for said perfection you are kicked off the island and never allowed to return.
If the place you are being kicked to is a place you are most likely going to die, then you are looking at LE.. if its just some place that isn't "home" anymore, then you may be looking at LN. LG though? no. You aren't being Good, you aren't looking for the good of anything except your own arbitrary idea.
Good is looking out for the interest of others first. This dragon isn't doing htat, he's looking out for his own interest first, and to heck with everyone else second.
Even the utopia is setup for that goal- the fact that its beneficial to those "perfect" people is a mere side effect of the overall goal of stroking his own ego.I think I talked myself down to him being LE.
-S
Well, no- he's not. He's performing an experiment, that he designed, to see how it works.
is a nation founded as a social experiment to test the limits of human potential when it is not constrained or destroyed by war, intolerance, or ignorance.
The island is his little petri dish and he planted the germs in it and is seeing what happens. When something comes along to interfere he kicks it out of the petri dish.
The dragon is the dictator of the island (though he gives some sham of "power" away to a council- but everyone has to give fealty to him anyway).He is Lawful Evil, it just seems good because he happens to allow some folks to life good lives in the process. How he treats the undesierables though shows him for what he really is. The dragon is evil.
He doesn't care about the people's welfare or well being- the dragon is only interested in his experiment.
He's not trying to help anyone but himself, and anyone else who is helped by that (the subjects of the experiment) is a by product not the design. Its only by their good fortune that the experiment is "give everyeone everything for free and teach them good things" and not "lets see how long a human lasts under various forms of torture". The "good" is a side effect- not the purpose. The purpose is to see how well he can breed a person.
he even allows elves and half-elves in.> Not b ecause they are worthy, or even good but:
although occasionally an elf or half elf is allowed to live and breed with the residents of Hermea, injecting some of their natural charisma, good looks and longer life spans into the human gene pool.
.
Sure, the end effect might be good (assuming the dragon doesn't blast it all to smitherenes when the test is done so he can wipe the slate and do some other experiment) but his point isn't goodness. Its the test. Humans are merely a pawn in the overall goal of seeing how strong he can get a human to be.
Oi, the whole thing made my skin crawl.
-S
experiments in and of themselves or not evil. It is the style of experiment that is evil. How is helping the human race reach its potential an evil act?
he's not kicking people off the island and leaving them to die he is politely asking them to leave after they have tried everything in our power to make him better
it's like being at a bar and being asked to politely leave the bar when you do not meet the criteria to be at the bar. they arent takin you o ut side and shooting you nor are they leaving you to die. there are cabs outside to take you home. this is not evil. the owner politely asked you to leave his privately owned establishment which he is in his own right allowed to do.
experiments in and of themselves or not evil. It is the style of experiment that is evil. How is helping the human race reach its potential an evil act?
he's not kicking people off the island and leaving them to die he is politely asking them to leave after they have tried everything in our power to make him better
it's like being at a bar and being asked to politely leave the bar when you do not meet the criteria to be at the bar. they arent takin you o ut side and shooting you nor are they leaving you to die. there are cabs outside to take you home. this is not evil. the owner politely asked you to leave his privately owned establishment which he is in his own right allowed to do.
Experimenting on the human race for your own personal eugenics project and ejecting anyone who doesn't meet your arbitrary criteria is treating a sentient species as your own private little play thing.
Human, elf, orc, whatever.
Being asked to leave an establishment beacuse you don't meet their criteria is entirely different tahn being ejected from a society because you aren't X tall or have Y hair color or are just a hair under the IQ mark or whatever.
He's not helping anyone but himself, he's pruning out people like you would a weed in a garden and then tossing it to the side, uncaring what happens to it. This creature isn't a good creature. He's a dictator running a dictatorship designed for his own self grandisement and the people who live there are *nothing* but his lab rats.
He's evil.
-S
He's LG :P
Helping people is good.
Helping reach the pinnacle of their ability is good.
Treating people like your personal experiment to see just how high yuo can get them, while excising the undesireables out like unwanted cancerous cells?
Not so much.
He *wants* them to see him as good, as the nice kind benevolent benefactor.. while he tinkers with them for his own amusement and towards his own ends and goals.
-S
Here is your boat ticket to the mainland * waves them off *
excising like unwanted cancerous cells? Not so much.
Tinkers with them? Missed that bit. More like a breeder than a genesplicer.
His ends and goals? Betterment of human race...Uplift them :P
LG
Greg
This thread is like putting two bugs in a jar and shaking it to make them fight. For shame! :)
For my part, I don't argue that Mengkare IS lawful good, I just argue that he MIGHT be, and that we all benefit from never answering that question in canon. Leaders--dragons or human--often have to make tough choices, and some things are best left up to interpretation and speculation.
So if i have a character from Hermea that got voted off the island should I just conclude that he left in a real hurry on a boat that wasn't slated for fiery destruction, Mengekare was busy that week, or just said "Meh, that one's harmless" , or that form 437-B got a little tied up in the byzantine bureaucracy
If you say what Mengkare is doing is not good, then you can't say that any herder is good. He treats his subjects like livestock. As intelligent as he is, they might as well be, to him.
If you say what Mengkare is doing is not good, then you can't say that any herder is good. He treats his subjects like livestock. As intelligent as he is, they might as well be, to him.
Well, the question here is whether or not Mengekare is just milking the flock, or taking the undesirables aside for some BBQ. Without an answer to that question (which we will never have) an answer. There are things you can do to unintelligent animals in the D&D alignment system that you can't do to sentient creatures and still be good.
That's true. But we don't know what he's doing with them. Ambiguity is a good thing in this case, I think.
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Well, the question here is whether or not Mengekare is just milking the flock,
Heh heh, that sounds dirty... Yes, I am twelve!
Anywho, I think it's a shame that eugenics has become a dirty word because of that nutjob who did that thing in Europe (wait, don't we hate Europe? Especially France? I'm confused again...). Eugenics is being tossed around here as if it's automatically evil because of some past association with a bad-guy. That's like saying that people who drive Volkswagons are evil because the same dude made them the state car.
Where Mengkare's philosophy falls apart for me, is it promotes elitism and 'physically better is morally/spiritually better' thinking. (Similar to the modern philosophy that rich people are rich because they are more deserving and better people, and poor people are poor because of some moral failing or characteristic of their race.) It totally contrasts with ideals of compassion, in which one should feel obligated to support and aid those who are less able, not kick them to the curb for being 'not good enough,' in a dark Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' sort of way.
That's where I think Mengkare is going off the rails, with the notion that prettier smarter healthier people are more likely to also be spiritually more advanced, or emotionally more stable, or more moral or ethical than the unwashed masses of ugly people or fat people or cripples or other people who, in his eyes, aren't quite ready for prime time.
I don't think he has to be evil, yet, or even neutral. I think he can *easily* still be lawful good. But I do think he's on a precarious slope, and even if he's got the lily-whitest of intentions, and the biggest most compassionate heart ever, the people he's sheparding into this 'better race of man' may not prove to be as wise or compassionate as he hopes, and might end up re-enacting Star Trek's Eugenics Wars.
Which could be totally cool, as a dark future for Hermea. Flawless skinned square-jawed seven foot tall ubermenschen working among the 'lesser' humans of the Inner Sea, manipulating them in a Scarlet-Brotherhood-esque fashion, to set them up for a massive attack by people who make the 'superior' folk of old Azlant look puny. Mengkare? Long dead. Murdered by the people who felt that his outdated morals and ethics were 'holding them back,' and 'something for lesser men, who lack our superior wisdom, and no longer need to concern ourselves with the laws and mores of weaker men.'
Perhaps they'll even have their own Khan Singh, because Ricardo Montalban makes everything better!
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It totally contrasts with ideals of compassion, in which one should feel obligated to support and aid those who are less able, not kick them to the curb for being 'not good enough,' in a dark Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' sort of way.
Someone who is 'not fit' to live in that society is unlikely to ever be happy in that society. Is being dropped off elsewhere with basic provisions and a wiped memory not 'good' in that situation?
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Someone who is 'not fit' to live in that society is unlikely to ever be happy in that society. Is being dropped off elsewhere with basic provisions and a wiped memory not 'good' in that situation?It totally contrasts with ideals of compassion, in which one should feel obligated to support and aid those who are less able, not kick them to the curb for being 'not good enough,' in a dark Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' sort of way.
Memory wipe? What? I don't remember any memory Whi...oh crap.
(BNW- In all seriousness i didn't see anything about a memory wipe)
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LOL.
Dragons are for killing.
But this ones scales are all shiny! They've been color coded for our convenience for a reason!
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Dragons are for killing heroes.
Fixed that for you :P
Where Mengkare's philosophy falls apart for me, is it promotes elitism and 'physically better is morally/spiritually better' thinking.
Well, people are less inclined to lynch their neighbors with torches and pitchforks when there's bread in their bellies and they're not dying from the plague. Healthier people are less likely to be sick and can grow more food , getting them more food which keeps them healthier in a nice upward spiral.
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Someone who is 'not fit' to live in that society is unlikely to ever be happy in that society. Is being dropped off elsewhere with basic provisions and a wiped memory not 'good' in that situation?Memory wipe? What? I don't remember any memory Whi...oh crap.
(BNW- In all seriousness i didn't see anything about a memory wipe)
It's up-thread where people are speculating on how Mengkare might dispose of the unwanted. I've not read up to see what is canon.
What if it were definitely the case that they didn't dispose of imperfect citizens? Do you think there's anything inherently non lawful good about eugenics experiments?It boils down to whether or not a creature that runs a eugenics experiment on an island that may or may not involve "disposal" of imperfect citizens could ever actually be lawful good.
My stance is no, he can not.
Well, in the US , Britain and Germany, the eugenics movements ended up, at best, forcibly sterilizing people against their will because they were mentally handicapped, criminals, alcoholics, or had Epilepsy; as we all know it got a lot worse. Even when the scientists had good intentions, it went bad inevitably, as playing God does.
I tend to side with captain Reynolds on this one as a disability sties professor:
"Mal: This report is maybe twelve years old. Parliament buried it, and it stayed buried till River dug it up. This is what they feared she knew. And they were right to fear because there's a whole universe of folk who are gonna know it, too. They're gonna see it. Somebody has to speak for these people. You all got on this boat for different reasons, but you all come to the same place. So now I’m asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything I know this, they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten, they'll swing back to the belief that they can make people…better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave.
Jayne: Shepherd Book used to tell me, "If you can't do somethin' smart... do somethin' right."
experiments in and of themselves or not evil. It is the style of experiment that is evil. How is helping the human race reach its potential an evil act?
he's not kicking people off the island and leaving them to die he is politely asking them to leave after they have tried everything in our power to make him better
it's like being at a bar and being asked to politely leave the bar when you do not meet the criteria to be at the bar. they arent takin you o ut side and shooting you nor are they leaving you to die. there are cabs outside to take you home. this is not evil. the owner politely asked you to leave his privately owned establishment which he is in his own right allowed to do.
A lawyer can correct me, but I don't believe you can ask some to leave because you believe they are genetically inferior.
Anywho, I think it's a shame that eugenics has become a dirty word because of that nutjob who did that thing in Europe (wait, don't we hate Europe? Especially France? I'm confused again...). Eugenics is being tossed around here as if it's automatically evil because of some past association with a bad-guy. That's like saying that people who drive Volkswagons are evil because the same dude made them the state car.
..
See the case Buck v. Bell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell
Note that the case is part of the eugenics movement in the US and was hardly benign at the time and continued after WWII.
The biggest moral problem this dragon will face is if someone else thinks it's a good idea and enacts it in their kingdom with negative eugenics rather than positive eugenics.
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Exactly, that is why humans need a dragon to handle these matters.
Greg
Reminds me of Breath of Fire III (and maybe a dozen older things).
To lie in the golden cage, shielded from danger but also from freedom, or to wander the endless desert, where unknown dangers await?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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That's true. But we don't know what he's doing with them. Ambiguity is a good thing in this case, I think.Well those barbecued corpses that show up every now and then leave good room for doubt.
But here's a good point that late great Dragonstar RPG brought up. The metallic dragons on the abstract level are "good". But they view that alignment from a dragon's perspective.
Which is true. When you live for 1,000 years, what's a couple human generations?
Another thing is how much freedom and consent is allowed? For example, if the island is basically a box that Mengs drops humans in and then 'shakes the box and sees what happens' occasionally culling elements then it's not much worse than most nations in the inner sea.
If he is micromanaging it "You will mate with her, and then we will test your children." it gets away from the 'good' aspects, as we see them. The write up indicates somewhere in the middle.
I think Mengs can be Lawful Good, seeing himself as a parent figure. He basically has a Power of Attorney for each of his 'subjects' that they signed (allegedly) of their own free will. So he's executing that as we would for a child or an incapacitated/impared adult. Now that kind of power can corrupt (especially when you have spells to back it up) so I guess we ask if 150 years is enough that he's slid downhill.
Finally, as to the charred corpses. They very well could be the result of Mengs. If someone 'undesirable' is removed from the colony, it could be for a number of reasons. What if said person is actually dangerous? If one of his citizens 'breeds' a sociopath, is it really good to pat him on his head, and set him on his way? Akin to the 'torturing undead' thread elsewhere, isn't it merciful to just incinerate the failure, rather than let someone with 6+ generations of selective breeding lose on the world?
Just some thoughts.
He can "see himself" however he wants to- that has no bearing on his alignment.
"Hi, you've lived here your entire life. I've cared for you and loved you as have your parents. Take this test. If you fail, I'm going to drop kick you to the mainland and you can never, ever, ever, ever come back- not even to see your mom and dad. Oh yeah- i made up the test, its completely arbitrary based on the needs of my keeping this little experiment of mine pure. Good luck. No pressure."
This dragon is not good. He is a mad scientist playing with sentient creatures to see just how "perfect" he can get his little test tube of people.
He's not trying to better mankind at all. If he was, he'd be caring for the discards and trying to better them too instead of curbstomping them when they fail his little exam at year 16.
He *cares* about his experiment- not about people or humans or whatever. They are his pawns- much like a child with an ant farm.
Is he lawful? Apparently, according to the write up.
Is he good? No freaking way.
He's looking out for one thing and one thing only: His pet project.
Anything that gets in the way of it is dismissed and removed- even the kids born to his "perfect' race who he's helped to raise to year 16.
"I love you but get the bleep off my island- you are inferior and will spoil my project". The fact that he does it on boat is more an issue of not wanting his people to out right revolt and overthrow his scaly butt, than any notion of generosity or nicety on his part. If he cared about them at all he wouldn't be exiling them in the first place.
Using a sentient species as your play thing in a petri dish doesn't make you a Good creature.
-S
Using a sentient species as your play thing in a petri dish doesn't make you a Good creature.
It doesn't *not* make you a good creature, either. You're sensationalizing.
Using a sentient species as your play thing in a petri dish doesn't make you a Good creature.It doesn't *not* make you a good creature, either. You're sensationalizing.
I disagree that I'm sensationalizing anything. But the clear, unambiguous text the dragon is using the humans (and a few elves and half-elves) on that island as his eugenics experiment. He is literally, and explicitly, using a sentient species as his play thing.
And yes- that does make you Not Good.
He's not doing it for their benefit at all, he is doing it for the purpose of seeing what he can do with his experiment. He could care lessa bout humanity or the people involved in the experiment in as much as they are simply a means to an end for him. You can tell that is true by how he treats those who "fail" his arbitrary test.
This isn't "I have a Utopia, come and populate it so we can build a better humanity".
This is "I have a restricted island, and if you don't meet my criteria you can't come here and if you are born here and don't meet the criteria I'm kicking you off the island at age 16 because your presence will foul my experiment".
Its true that the subjects of the experiment are treated well, are given the best, and all that. But thats merely a side effect of the test the dragon is performing. The Dragon isn't doing it to help people he's doing it as an experiment to see how high he can lift them up. Go read the line about letting elves and half-elves in again, if you doubt that.
This dragon is performing an experiment using sentient creatures as the subjects of it and discarding those in the experiment who would negatively impack it. He is not a good creature.
-S
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Um, his subjects are AGREEING to be part of the experiment. He's not forcing them to live there. That's a whole lot different then mandating everyone do this.
You have to be invited to Hermea, and you can be removed from Hermea,and you can leave Hermea, but there is nothing, anywhere, in the write-up that says you are forced to participate against your will.
Being allowed to live in Hermea when the overriding authority says no is classic Chaos vs Lawful. In this case, the Lawful wins.
That's nothing to do with good or evil, it's the will of the many who call themselves Hermeans siding with the dragon and removing those who are no longer philosophically Hermeans.
If the Dragon was doing this and the participants had no choice in the matter, that's LE. That's a whole lot different from what is going on.
==Aelryinth
I think the fact that they named the dragon Mengele, er, Mengkare, (sorry, got my eugenicists mixed up) should be considered a hint as to his intentions.
In fancy literary circles, they call that "foreshadowing".
A lawyer can correct me, but I don't believe you can ask some to leave because you believe they are genetically inferior.
Quoth the dragon: (and he DOES have that in writing)
Oi, the dragon can ask them to leave for any reason he feels like. It's his island, and they are there on his invitation. If they don't work out, he's going to remove them...and being it's his land, if force is neccessary, force will be used. He's not forcing them to stay, after all.
==Aelryinth